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Loo Kinn
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:12:00 - [61]
 

What language is best to code engine trails? Razz

Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:29:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha


A9 10
2D 0D DC
F0 FB
EE 20 DO
4C 02 C0

6510 for life!

(Yes, I actually spent some years coding directly in Hex like that Cool)


Old school props... Cool

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:33:00 - [63]
 

I dislike coding so much I pay others to do it for me. I dont even like doing CSS and php or SQL... I HATE IT ALL!

Also Linux/unix can suck it too.... I install the gui even on server.

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:48:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Loo Kinn
What language is best to code engine trails? Razz


Oh that's easy, the Turtle progamming language. Some would say Bain but I say for Bain that the code would look better than the trails.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:48:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Enriana Shli****n
Originally by: Mara Rinn


Half of C++ programming is remembering to garbage collect. The other half is debugging memory leaks. The actual productive time when writing in C++ is the rounding error percentage.



That is true if you're a complete ******, which this guy is. Okay to be fair, it seems like a lot of people are unable to handle this kindergarten stuff.


Pffft. Except in extreme cases, manually managing memory is a waste of programming and testing resources.


Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:11:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Nypheas Azurai on 19/02/2011 06:20:34

Originally by: Mara Rinn
It takes about three years of programming to get past the ******ed stage with C++. In that time you could have used Python and finished the job.

Yeah, and ended up with a poorly optimized product that hey, probably has great looking source!

Originally by: CCP Tuxford
It is easier to code in python than C++. If you think otherwise you have either never programmed in python or never coded in C++. The quality of the coders is an entirely different debate but tbh I think it's childish to belief that somehow programming in C++ mystically makes you a better programmer it all depends on what you do not the language you use.
Having said that then it's all I have to say on the subject. Aren't religious debates banned on this forum anyway Razz

I think it really does matter what language you 'speak'. Having to be conscious of the little things like memory management and optimizations really does affect how you approach a problem, and in my experience it's always those with that sort of background who fully understand what's going on.

but hey you do have a point: religion, politics.. and programming Razz

Mina Hiragi
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:37:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: mia mia
You code in whatever language makes the most sense for your particular set of requirements, restrictions, circumstances. Any other discussion is academic or for posers.


This.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:51:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Nypheas Azurai

I think it really does matter what language you 'speak'. Having to be conscious of the little things like memory management and optimizations really does affect how you approach a problem, and in my experience it's always those with that sort of background who fully understand what's going on.



I agree that background helps people to understand what's going on... too bad that has nothing to do with actually getting **** done. :)

-Liang

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.19 07:22:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Nypheas Azurai

I think it really does matter what language you 'speak'. Having to be conscious of the little things like memory management and optimizations really does affect how you approach a problem, and in my experience it's always those with that sort of background who fully understand what's going on.



Depends. If you're programming business apps, then the language doesn't really matter, the libraries do. How fast can I assemble a working, bug free app? You don't want to have to know the language/system internals in order to meet your goal.

If you're trying to write and optimize something like Eve, then I agree that you really need to understand memory allocation and have a good understanding of algorithms for performance reasons. But even then, you normally only need certain key areas to have high performance, so using C++ (or C or assembly) everywhere can be a waste of time.


Manually managing memory/resources is an expense at worst and a cost savings at best. Manually managing resources isn't how you make your money, so it should be minimized whenever possible.

AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services
Posted - 2011.02.19 07:25:00 - [70]
 

Pro-Tip: Java then go into Python (Netbeans FTW).

Java will do some object oriented help for you.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.02.19 07:31:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 19/02/2011 07:32:29
Nice chest-beating going on in here Laughing

CCP uses C++ when they need more performance.

CCP monitors performance of code with some toy (they blogged about it some months ago), to measure execution time for code. If something under-performs the algorithm will be reviewed and or C++ used.

Can't see the problem here..

Except for this multi-threading gimped python, but even there it's a matter of the algorithms used still (in reagards to fleet fight performance).

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.19 07:59:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
LDA #$01
STA D020
LDA #$01
STA D021



My god, i still remember most 6502 processor assembly indstructions out of memory, lol.

But then again i was young and didint know that we cant always do what we want Rolling Eyes

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.19 08:58:00 - [73]
 

Quote:

ADA for the win, but I don't think entities outside the US can have access to it



No, ADA is available but customers don't want to pay for ANY extra-cost.
Customers dream language is a free Visual Basic but fast like optimized assembler and easy enough that their IT department chief understands it (often they are unrecoverable idiots).


Quote:

Once you start using C++ features you're adding overhead (virtual methods? omg function tables! blech! my precious cycles!); also, insanity (hey, let's overload operators and template everything itsagoodideareally).



C++ is a powerful tool, it's up to the programmer to know how to use it.
None will shoot you if you prefer to inline stuff or to not use virtual methods where speed is needed.
The overhead to manually handle i.e. opaque structures in C is done by the compiler in an optimized way, it's overhead that for any non trivial application you'd have had to manually manage anyway.
Only way to do better is to use hand optimized assembler, which is actually done in the "must have quickest speed" core of worthwhile applications.


Quote:

A proper algorithm requires proper thinking. Programming in C++ means you focus too much on fancy tricks, and don't spend enough time thinking



Never had this issue. But then, I planned what to do first, did not headbutt my way into spaghetti code.


Quote:

I agree that background helps people to understand what's going on... too bad that has nothing to do with actually getting **** done. :)



It's why you use something time effective like C# for the high level bits and C / asm for the low level bits.
Or you could use well coded Delphi 7 for both and have an easy life like in C# and almost the speed of C (in some cases it's optimizes better than C).


Originally by: Dasola
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
LDA #$01
STA D020
LDA #$01
STA D021



My god, i still remember most 6502 processor assembly indstructions out of memory, lol.

But then again i was young and didint know that we cant always do what we want Rolling Eyes


That code is not optimized.
The equivalent is:

A9 01
8D 20 D0
8D 21 D0

But I don't think he wanted to repeat the same 01 value in the second location (we are talking about screen background and border color on a C=64 here), maybe he wanted to store $02.

In that case if memory does not fail me:


A2 01 LDX $01
8E 20 D0 STX $D020
E8 INX
8E 21 D0 STX $D021


I bothered to translate the above into readable assembler to show what happens when you have something low level like ASM or C at disposal: you can trim machine cycles out here and there and end up with a slightly shorter and faster code.





Finally: the best programmers I ever met started on these:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

These teached many, many things.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:02:00 - [74]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:08:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
lol python. do they really code any significant amount of this game in it? if so, that would explain a lot.

real men use C++, and girly men at least use lua. only magical fairies hopped up on pixie DUST use LULZ WHITESPACE IS SIGNIFICANT language

good python code > bad c++ code


But all you have really said is "good code > bad code". Well, come on, your just trolling now.

quickshot89
Caldari
89th Logistics
Posted - 2011.02.19 09:28:00 - [76]
 

Python is a pretty nice thing to program, unlike Fortran77 which im currently working with for 6 months :(

Dexter Talon
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.19 11:00:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 19/02/2011 07:32:29
Nice chest-beating going on in here Laughing

CCP uses C++ when they need more performance.


That so? The following dev blog suggests that at least their inventory system is written in python. They also state that said inventory system becomes a limiting factor in large scale fleet fights (because of missiles in this particular case):

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=854

It seems that "most client and server behavior" is written in Python:

http://us.pycon.org/2009/conference/schedule/event/87/

To the people who say: "algorithms matter more than language". That's an empty phrase in my opinion. What exactly is it that keeps you from implementing efficient (and I don't mean nice-looking or elegant) algorithms in another language?

Cpt Placeholder
Posted - 2011.02.19 12:00:00 - [78]
 

I would avoid doing C++ if I can, but I would prefer the same product in C++, rather than a higher language.

As for Python, it's nice, but I think there are too many better languages for small things.
I would never make anything large in a dynamic language anyways.

The foofoo thing is caused by default arguments being evaluated only once. That is written in the documentation, which is, contrary to what someone in this thread said, rather good.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2011.02.19 17:06:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
real men code in Pascal, c/d?


Depends - if you think real men ought to shoot themselves in the foot with pointers and buffer overflows regularly, C is the way to go. Pascal is more for wusses who shun bugs of that kind.


Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.02.19 17:40:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: quickshot89
Python is a pretty nice thing to program, unlike Fortran77 which im currently working with for 6 months :(


I worked on Fortran written in the 1950s and is still in use today.

Fortran 90 was great when they added pointers and multiple entry subroutines.


Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.19 19:14:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Selinate on 19/02/2011 19:20:06
we're considering python a programming language, now? Noted.

I always just thought it just essentially like maple programming: incredibly simplified.

EDIT: Also, real men program in FORTRAN.

Bunch of pussies, with your C++.

Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Posted - 2011.02.20 01:05:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Scorpyn on 20/02/2011 01:12:56
Originally by: Selinate
we're considering python a programming language, now? Noted.

Nope. It's a type of snake.

On a slightly more serious note, in my (somewhat limited) experience with python, I consider it to be somewhat annoying that syntax errors aren't detected until you get to the line with the error while running the code.

I suppose that's a general issue with non-compiled code though.

As for C vs C++, I prefer C (which could be because it's simply less stuff to learn), but I prefer the coding style of C++ because it makes it easier to see what code belongs where.


stuff(){
do stuff
}

vs

stuff()
{
do stuff
}


I suppose it just depends on what you're used to though.

Edit : For those who like a challenge, try Malbolge. (See link for source code. Yes, that's source code.)

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.20 03:51:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Scorpyn
Edited by: Scorpyn on 20/02/2011 01:12:56
Originally by: Selinate
we're considering python a programming language, now? Noted.

Nope. It's a type of snake.




....Confused

Touché, sir.


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