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Mikalya
Amarr
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2011.02.18 05:30:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
Wow... just... wow...

Okay, I'll say it again, this time in as short a way as possible so that there might not be any misunderstanding.


The sum of the complexity of every individual ship component is what determines its cost.

And the components that make up a ship are arbitrarily set by its tier level, NOT functionality.

Granth Roden
Posted - 2011.02.18 11:05:00 - [32]
 

Read the forums. When advising new players who want to do lvl 2s, nobody tells them "get a stabber, then a rupture". They say "get the ruppy" as its the entry level for cruisers. Likewise with BCs - get the cane, not the cyclone; the drake, never the ferox. The harby, never ever the proph. Myrm and brutix are the exception in a bit simply because they are the BC version of domi and mega, reversed.

That a proph should have less dps than the harby is normal. Its bonus is to resists, NOT to DPS. But it is also crippled.
When analysing slots, remember that extra-big-drone bay ships often have that count as a "slot". In the Tier 3 cruiser line, the amarr one has an extra slot due to that (15) compared to others due to NO drone bay.
(but the caldari tech 2 get scragged here for no comepensation. They're also the cheapest hacs)

See number of slots.
RACE TIER 1 TIER 2
Amarr 16 18
Gallente 16 17 + oversize drone bay
FOTM 17 18 (but 8 highs, only 5 turrets)
Caldari 16 18

There is a clear correlation with utility.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.02.18 15:18:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 18/02/2011 15:19:13
Originally by: Batolemaeus
While tier progression isn't a problem for battleships, the lack of slots and hp on lower tier cruiser and frigates due to their legacy status is an issue, as evidenced by their lack of roles.

First off, they do have a role. It's just that they're either very easily replaced by something better (e.g. mining and probing vessels. not least because of faster skill training and guides), or they're 'not welcomed' by those entities who utilize the respective roles, since they'd rather have the T2 specialized version (probing/logistics/ewar), or their role is just not very popular at the moment with current game mechanics (ewar).
None of this actually means that the ships themselves are useless.

Nonetheless you have a valid point there, when it comes to combat ships. But why not concentrate on those real examples and balance/variety instead of blaming 'the tier system' which obviously isn't a problem in itself, as can be seen by looking at the BS class.
Of course waging war against a big scheme of injustice creates a lot more drama, but.. is that really necessary?

What I miss in this discussion is a proper amount of differentiation and level-headed argumentation.
I can literally see some people's red heads and typing rage in front of their desks.

Basically this whole topic should be named:"Please boost my beloved tier1 battlecruiser, and while we're at it boost some frigates and a couple of cruisers, too"

Originally by: Batolemaeus
The condor, executioner, slasher, breacher..they all need at least 3 more slots, they all need an hp boost. There's a reason why you don't see condors or executioners tackle, because merlins and punishers make better jobs due to being tier3, even though they are not the speed/tackle frigates.
When was the last time you actually saw a tech1 frigate tackle?
I mean, yeah, it happens when you take a newbie with you in PvP and you want to give him something to do, but later?
When it comes to frigates, even the best of their class are easily and very fast replaced with interceptors or assault ships.

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Ships in eve should have a role they fit in. Not one ship to rule them all. For frigates, each race has one catch-all for all things combat, one probing ship, and one very weak ship with a mining bonus. The other two ships are either complete garbage or in the case of the griffin, moderately garbage. Removing the outdated tier system and bringing all ships in line will make all obsolete legacy frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers fill out their destined role instead of having their role taken from them by a higher tier ship.
Ok, counter-examples: Moa/Caracal, Thorax/Vexor, Maller/Omen/Arbitrator
Caracal is far better mission runner and viable in other roles. Vexor is better mission runner and more viable in other roles. Same goes for the Amarr lineup. Regarding Minmatar, the Stabber is a better tackler and speedboat, while the Rupture kinda sucks at mining.
So basically all cruiser lineups are a bad example of that sweeping claim.

Really the only ships which fit into this whole discussion are the BCs, ffs. If you're secretly referring to them, please say so instead of making untenable assertions.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.02.18 19:18:00 - [34]
 

Tarron Sarek's entities that disapprove showing up in the wrong ship typically SHOOT YOU despite association.

I also agree with tarron's suspicion that this is a discussion about the battlecruisers and nothing noteably else becuase the battlecruisers are the only class out there where they're stepping on each ohters toes.

Jekyl Eraser
Posted - 2011.02.18 19:29:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
all kinds of completely logically incorrect bull****


Can you go talk about something simple like kimble where you can't go wrong.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.02.18 19:39:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Nova Fox on 18/02/2011 19:40:37
I know how about we embrace the tier system make one of each role per teir! that way the obvious difference between all of them would exist.

I would also like to note that reason why newer ships require so much more materials is the fact the supply of materials are alot higher than they where back then as well. Thus mineral deflation!? oMg.

Sheledra
Posted - 2011.02.18 20:08:00 - [37]
 

Tier system == role definition.
Let's look at cruisers
Tier 1: logistics
Tier 2: 1x ewar and 1x racial weapon specialist.
Tier 3: heavy tank with a dmg buff, clearly ment for solo pvp.

Each class of ships has a different tier layout that clearly defines the ships roll and eventual tec2 variant.

PS the hyperion is more expensive than the mega because it is better. It can run it's guns longer for more dmg and can take more dmg. Plus fewer people buy it, therefore the price needs to be higher to maintain the same profit margin. Give me one good reason why that shouldn't be more expensive.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.18 21:21:00 - [38]
 

A sharp definitive NO to adding bonuses of any sort, replace yes but not add. Eminently suited for the eWar and logistics boats.
Otherwise, couldn't agree more. I would love for an Inquisitor to (potentially) be as bad-ass as a Punisher or for people to take the Atron seriously when it smashes their face in Smile.

Originally by: Malen Nenokal
.. Also with th exception of frigate hulls, each tier caters to different play styles, the higher tiers aren't always preferred / better.

What possible purpose does the Scythe serve? Or the Bantam? Or the Aurogor?
Most of the ships in game are completely useless due to the tier system leaving them with inferior stats/slots.
The variety from "something being preferred" will still be present without tiers, it just won't require you to bend over for everyone else who didn't share that particular preference.

Sheledra
Posted - 2011.02.18 22:19:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
A sharp definitive NO to adding bonuses of any sort, replace yes but not add. Eminently suited for the eWar and logistics boats.
Otherwise, couldn't agree more. I would love for an Inquisitor to (potentially) be as bad-ass as a Punisher or for people to take the Atron seriously when it smashes their face in Smile.

Originally by: Malen Nenokal
.. Also with th exception of frigate hulls, each tier caters to different play styles, the higher tiers aren't always preferred / better.

What possible purpose does the Scythe serve? Or the Bantam? Or the Aurogor?
Most of the ships in game are completely useless due to the tier system leaving them with inferior stats/slots.
The variety from "something being preferred" will still be present without tiers, it just won't require you to bend over for everyone else who didn't share that particular preference.


They are logistics cruisers and they are very good at what they do, in some ways even better than their T2 counterparts. More importantly: Ships do not have bad stats because they are tire 1, they are tier 1 because they have bad stats.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.02.19 02:43:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja

The Osprey and Scythe are used for mining. The Osprey, Augoror and Exequror are used extensively in less expensive fleets as low-skill-requirement logistics for emergency remote repair from a player that may not have the skill requirements to use a RR battleship worth flying or a logistics ship, yet.

Similarly the Augoror, Exequror and Osprey are used by some mission runners for tag-along alts that provide them with remote cap, armor or shields, respectively, as well as tractoring and salvaging or simply cargo storage. For some people, the tracking link bonus on a scythe is more useful to them than remote repair, where their ship's fit can otherwise handle repair or cap requirements fine on its own without sacrificing DPS or other fitting factors.


In this way, you are essentially ignoring the potential uses for these ships purely because you aren't creative enough or don't have utility for them (any more), and want to impart your biased opinion as a design flaw that must, not might need to, but must be 'fixed'.


The skills ranking system is fine, it creates an artificial barrier of entry which doesn't need to be taken down. The fact that these ships vary in cost is, in large part, not purely based on tier, it's based on function and ship component costs as far as story is concerned.

In fact, if you look at the costs of some frigates, considering many are at a level 2 frigate skill requirement, you may find that some of the less 'complex' ships are cheaper to manufacture than their seemingly less useful ships in their 'tier', while similarly, a Blackbird is worth less than an Osprey, even though the Blackbird has the higher 'tier'.



I think you need to go back and revise your facts. The 'tier' system doesn't make anything 'obsolete', player choice does. 'Tier' does not determine the ship cost, its systems complexity and such does. It does not have any kind of 'excessive' balance impact and does have a logical basis in terms of CONCORD licensing for use.

That's right, by training a skill level, you're essentially improving the vehicle category you're allowed to drive as far as CONCORD is concerned. They are the ones that allow you to use those civvy ship designs, after all.


You sir, are a dolt. Your fail examples are ships that have a clear and defined role, and generally excel at it. They have role bonuses in addition to their regular ship-skill bonuses, thereby escaping the fail that is the tier limitations.

Look at this list of ships that are **** because of the tier system.

crucifier
executioner
inquisitor
condor
atron
incursus
maulus
slasher
omen
celestis
bellicose

Now, imagine if they all had the ability to do what they were designed to do, instead of being complete trash because of their gimped fittings and slots. VARIETY! OMG! Why fly any of the frigates on that list when a rifter will do it a gazillion times better? Why fly a ****tier cruiser when you can just buy a rupture?

I can totally understand a noob flying a lower tier ship because he hasn't the skills, but what about 8 hours later? Suddenly he can fly the better ship and has absolutely no reason to ever go back.

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja

The 'tier' system doesn't make anything 'obsolete', player choice does.



Are you so backwards and stupid that you don't understand how more fittings, plus better stats(cap, armor/shield, etc) PLUS MORE FREAKING FITTING SLOTS make the higher tier ships BETTER. Why fly a crucifier when you can put a TD on a rifter and be 75% as effective at ewar and have more dps/ehp/speed/etc/etc/etc.


AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2011.02.19 02:50:00 - [41]
 

Templar, firstly, read through the entire thread.

Secondly, with exception to the inquisitor (as well as the breacher, its minmatar counterpart), I have personally found all of those ships to be great for their cost and roles.


Anyway. I can only have to repeat myself so many times in so many different ways. I've voiced my opinion on this multiple times already and people can either agree with me or not; I don't care. If people don't understand my comparisons between real life and the game's mechanics, or more specifically choose to ignore them on account of the whole "you can't compare real life and EVE" attitude, then that's their problem, not mine.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.02.19 02:58:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Granth Roden


See number of slots.
RACE TIER 1 TIER 2
Amarr 16 18
Gallente 16 17 + oversize drone bay
FOTM 17 18 (but 8 highs, only 5 turrets)
Caldari 16 18

There is a clear correlation with utility.


Don't forget bonuses and required fittings. Also, bonuses play a part it in.

[example]
Compare the cane to the harb. Cane has 6 guns with damage/rof bonuses and top tier guns, harb has 7 guns and a damage bonus. Cane comes out with about 9.5 guns(equivilent) and the harb comes out to 8.75. They have the same slot layout, but the cane ends up with two utility highs to the harb's one...and it doesn't need to fit a cap booster. So, in the end it comes out 1-2 slots ahead.

Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:10:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
Templar, firstly, read through the entire thread.

Secondly, with exception to the inquisitor (as well as the breacher, its minmatar counterpart), I have personally found all of those ships to be great for their cost and roles.


Anyway. I can only have to repeat myself so many times in so many different ways. I've voiced my opinion on this multiple times already and people can either agree with me or not; I don't care. If people don't understand my comparisons between real life and the game's mechanics, or more specifically choose to ignore them on account of the whole "you can't compare real life and EVE" attitude, then that's their problem, not mine.


I did read the entire thread. Ship slots/fittings/stats should not be limited by tiers. You disagree, and use the tech 1 logi cruisers as your main/only example.

Ships that are gimped on purpose so that a one-day-old character saves 10 minutes in procuring them, is a waste of a good number of hulls in this game.

A breacher has 2 less slots than a rifter, less structure/armor/shield, is slower and bigger, has less scan res, etc etc etc.

I ask you, why would anyone that had a choice, pick a breacher over a rifter? To save 60k?

AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:19:00 - [44]
 

Okay, you really didn't read anything I said...

This is the part where I simply walk away and continue with my work, instead of wasting more of my time.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:22:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
The sum of the complexity of every individual ship component is what determines its cost.


What components are those? Last I checked tech 1 sub capital ships only needed minerals.

AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2011.02.19 03:55:00 - [46]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469347&page=1#22

Sheledra
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:08:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Sheledra on 19/02/2011 04:08:48
crucifier - Ewar frig, one of the best.
executioner- T1 version interceptor, move fast and hit hard.
inquisitor- Missile boat, hits very hard from far away. pretty straight forward.
condor- another T1 version of an interceptor. It does that job exceptionally well.
atron- T1 intercepter. You seem to have something against speed tanking.
incursus- you are right this one is pretty useless. Which disproves your point because this is a tier 3 frig.
maulus- Ewar frig. Pretty straight forward.
slasher- this is one of the best speed tankers in the game.
omen- This is the main amarr fleet dps cruiser.
celestis- Ewar cruiser. very effective in fleet actions.
bellicose- Ewar cruiser. MAJOR dps booster in large scale pvp.

Every ship in the game has a very well defined roll, just because that roll isn't useful in solo pvp doesn't mean it is not useful. Not all problems are best solved by shooting at them.

Sheledra
Posted - 2011.02.19 04:39:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Templar Dane


I ask you, why would anyone that had a choice, pick a breacher over a rifter? To save 60k?


Maby because they want a very fast missile boat. They go almost as fast as the rifter but have much better accuracy and damage at long range, that's a great combo for pve.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1469347&page=1#22


I see, you just interpolated them, they don't actually exist in any representable form outside of an 'they must exist' capacity.

Why shouldn't a mining ship take as much or more resources to build than a combat ship?

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:17:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Sheledra
crucifier - Ewar frig, one of the best.


Easy kill.

Quote:
executioner- T1 version interceptor, move fast and hit hard.


Easy kill when used correctly.

Quote:
inquisitor- Missile boat, hits very hard from far away. pretty straight forward.


I like them.

Quote:
condor- another T1 version of an interceptor. It does that job exceptionally well.


If being a ****easy kill is 'exceptionally well', then yes.

Quote:
atron- T1 intercepter. You seem to have something against speed tanking.


I have nothing against speed tanking.

Quote:
incursus- you are right this one is pretty useless. Which disproves your point because this is a tier 3 frig.


Blasterships suck all up and down the line.

Quote:
maulus- Ewar frig. Pretty straight forward.


Drone food.

Quote:
slasher- this is one of the best speed tankers in the game.


Which means nothing since it can't actually do anything other than act as a glorified shuttle.

Quote:
omen- This is the main amarr fleet dps cruiser.


Which is why all main Amarr fleets fly Harbingers and BSes.

Quote:
celestis- Ewar cruiser. very effective in fleet actions.


Very dead in any action.

Quote:
bellicose- Ewar cruiser. MAJOR dps booster in large scale pvp.


Hardly, in large scale pvp cruisers are just fodder. Though I can't think of a reason anyone would take out the Bellicose first... unless you are using it against frigate zergs or Halo Lokis.

Quote:
Every ship in the game has a very well defined roll, just because that roll isn't useful in solo pvp doesn't mean it is not useful. Not all problems are best solved by shooting at them.


And my point wasn't that a given ship was useless or doesn't fill a role. My entire premise is based on the tier system being outmoded and being used as an excuse to prenerf entire lines of ships. Would you fight a Rupture being piloted by an equal skill pilot, while you are in a Scythe?

Why or why not?

Donnovich Vacano
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:32:00 - [51]
 

The profitability of say the carical is higher as a mission runner than the ospery can make as a miner. Quite simply manufacturers can squeeze more money out of beginning mission runners than beginning miners. Prices are determined by what people can get away with charging, not anything as trivial as quantities of minerals. Aquiring more minerals incurs no additional cost just additional time.

AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:43:00 - [52]
 

Be careful with what you say, Donnovich, or you may trigger Tippia's explanation regarding opportunity cost.

To save them the effort, just look at this article instead. I had to be schooled on this as well.

Sheledra
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:47:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Would you fight a Rupture being piloted by an equal skill pilot, while you are in a Scythe?

Why or why not?


No i wouldn't. Because The Scythe is not a combat cruiser. It provides bonuses for other ships. On the other hand if it were a matter of a small gang with 4 ruptures in it, i would rather fly a Scythe than bring another Rupture to the mix. A fleet made up sole of damage dealers is gonna get it's ass kicked. The benefit of ships like the Scythe is hard to see until you start sucking when it's gone. The reason the Scythe is tier 1 is because it requires less skills to perform it's function well, while a dps needs high skills just to hit reliably.

Donnovich Vacano
Posted - 2011.02.19 05:54:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: AnonyTerrorNinja
Be careful with what you say, Donnovich, or you may trigger Tippia's explanation regarding opportunity cost.

To save them the effort, just look at this article instead. I had to be schooled on this as well.


Oh god not that again. Opportunity cost only costs you money if your manufacturing slots aren't all in use. (in other words if you have nothing better to do, your time costs nothing.) If you can mine the material required to make a ship in less then the build time you have a net gain, and this is not hard to do.

Annoitte
Minmatar
Industrial Salvage and Excavations
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:03:00 - [55]
 

So... I take it that the complaint is not that the tier system is actually screwing anything up, it's that the lower tier ships don't fill the roles you want them to. Have I got that right?

Here's a hint: Instead of just complaining about how it's not the kind of ship you want it to be, look at the slot layout, powergrid, cpu, and bonuses. That should give you an idea of what it is intended to do. Then, figure out what you want the ship to do. If the ship doesn't fill your need, find one that does.

There's a reason so many people train all four races.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:10:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 19/02/2011 06:50:45
Post removed.

Donnovich Vacano
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:14:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Donnovich Vacano
in other words if you have nothing better to do, your time costs nothing.


What was that about meaningful conversation apollo? Laughing

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:20:00 - [58]
 

You will not the main ships complained about are Gallente and Caldari and why is because their bonuses are working poorly with hybrid weapons, and in a few cases poor slot ratio. Give the Mega a hybrid range 5% optimal and fall-off bonus instead of its tracking bonus and it would become one of the most popular ships. Give the rokh another mid instead of a low and it then can have a better buffer or pack EW. These are just examples, of where things are off a little.

Annoitte
Minmatar
Industrial Salvage and Excavations
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:25:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Originally by: Annoitte
So... I take it that the complaint is not that the tier system is actually screwing anything up, it's that the lower tier ships don't fill the roles you want them to. Have I got that right?

Here's a hint: Instead of just complaining about how it's not the kind of ship you want it to be, look at the slot layout, powergrid, cpu, and bonuses. That should give you an idea of what it is intended to do. Then, figure out what you want the ship to do. If the ship doesn't fill your need, find one that does.

There's a reason so many people train all four races.


So two pages of posts is summarized by the above? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people assume you're an idiot, then to open it and remove all doubt. The conversation happening here is at such a higher level than your banal wasted text.


I'm sorry that I actually read the two pages and noticed the underlying complaint that wasn't actually pointed out by anyone else.

It has been stated multiple times while that the tier system is unnecessary, making the changes the OP wants will only make things worse. And, to top it off, the OP obviously can't get over the idea that there are a variety of roles that are played by each ship, in each race, and not every ship is going to be equal to every other ship, because of those roles.

Whoops. I used my brain again. I feel so ashamed.

Donnovich Vacano
Posted - 2011.02.19 06:43:00 - [60]
 

I think he was insulting the rest of us, you made your point quite well actually.


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