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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.13 13:08:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 11/05/2011 14:32:40

My research in the various aspect of sleeper mystery keeps leading me to Rene Descartes, the natural philosopher who could be considered the father of the age of enlightenment.

Note: Natural Philosopher was title used to describe those that studied the natural world in a systematic way, the forebears of what we call scientists today.

Rene Descartes for example:

Descartes invented the Cartesian coordinate system hinted at by many of the artefacts (1) (2).

The apparent logarithmic helix structure of Anoikis was first described by Descartes.

He wrote about the Mind Body Dichotomy this is the idea that the mind and body are fundamentally separate, the very basis of the transfer of conciousness between clones.

The Dream argument, when dreaming we usually do not know we are dreaming. We must be cautious when trying to distinguish dreams (illusion) from reality. This reveals that the mind can be tricked within a dream. When your own mind is the prison there are no walls.

Oneirology (Science of dreams) how the mind works when dreaming how dreaming affects the mind and mental health/illness.

Oneironautics the idea that once can travel and interact with others during lucid dreaming.

Now substitute simulated reality for dreams and this begins to shine a very interesting light on the mystery of the very nature of New Eden.

He also wrote on Teleology (The intrinsic and extrinsic nature of existence) which was also being investigated by the Talocan/Sleeper

He devised the expression "I Think Therefore I am ..." and also wrote about Stoicism (how self-control & fortitude overcomes irrationalism)


Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2011.02.13 13:51:00 - [2]
 

Pretty sure the Cartesian coordinates refer to this.

Shoo Dae
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.14 02:46:00 - [3]
 

Wow. Very nice find, Wyke. I especially like the references to the mind/body dichotomy and dreaming; given some of the various Sleeper "flavor text" and reoccurring motifs in wormhole space.

You mention research in your post... what goal are you pursuing in the game?

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.14 15:31:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Shoo Dae
Wow. Very nice find, Wyke. I especially like the references to the mind/body dichotomy and dreaming; given some of the various Sleeper "flavor text" and reoccurring motifs in wormhole space.

You mention research in your post... what goal are you pursuing in the game?


Over months I've looked into all those clues mentioned in my FP, recently my focus has been trying to understand the gross cosmological structure of Anoikis space when I came across the logarithmic helix and saw yet another mention of Descartes.

His name had cropped up so many times in the past while chasing down those other clues I decided to try and catalogue what I had found. He has been distracting me from that Anoikis structure research, so I though I would post my initial findings and see what other thought.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.02.14 18:33:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Auwnie Morohe on 17/02/2011 09:26:14
Man you are killing me, more interesting stuff to read.

After a very quick look it looks very interesting. I could very well point to the motives behind the Talocan and Sleepers.

This I thought funny. Evil_daemon. With a little literary imagination one could use this idea and give it to a people and have them run with it.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.16 15:51:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 16/02/2011 16:00:10

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe

After a very quick look it looks very interesting. I could very well point to the motives behind the Talocan and Sleepers.

This I thought funny. Evil_daemon. With little literary imagination one could use this idea and give it to a people and have them run with it.


With those in mind take a fresh look at The Truth Serum

I think this put a new light on the prison without walls.

A related post in another thread.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.02.16 19:49:00 - [7]
 

Wow, nice. I always thought the truth serum was too vague and with it could mean too many things. I still need to read through the Descartes stuff but with the Evil Daemon in mind the chronicle could get very specific in its meaning. Information vs matter or something along those lines. Man vs Infomorph.

As a matter of fact it goes very well with my idea of the relation between infomorphismConfused and the Joves. Especially the part where Gorda Hoje says he hopes we never find ultimate truth. They have perhaps seen what happens when man finds that ultimate truth. More and more Im moving towards the Enheduanni being a Jove faction that went where no man should go. You know jump of a big cliff into an black sea, I think it was.Cool

Time to start reading some more.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.02.17 00:22:00 - [8]
 

Interesting thread.

When considering the idea of the infomorph, the sort of questions outlined by Descartes' own ideas on body and mind inevitably come up. I remember thinking about it in vague, subsconscious terms as I scribbled Jita 4-4 together one hazy night stuck in JFK.

Ultimately Descartes' ideas about mind and body (wiki Cartesian dualism if you're interested) are flawed, though, in this two-time philosophy major dropout's opinion. Razz

Modern theories like Functionalism are better at describing the interaction between mind and body. In short, they say it's more like the body is hardware, and the mind is software. Obviously, that's a more useful theory for us sci fi fantasizers...Very Happy

It helps make sense of lots of EVE concepts too, like cloning and the idea of a hardware-less, software-only entity, such as an infomorph.

As for why Descartes keeps cropping up, well firstly, as an amateur student of philosophy I had to namedrop someone...you see. It's quite hard to casually slip in a Nietzsche or Kierkegaard into canon though, that's the issue. You need someone whose name blends in a little better...Razz

But then, secondly, the more I looked at Descartes, the more I realized it was providence, and he was the perfect fit in a pattern already overloaded with symbolism, bright distractions, and secrets hidden in plain sight. Twisted Evil

Some threads to follow so you don't get mad at me...Razz

The evil demon is a thought experiment into the idea of a grand deceiver. Some entity capable of keeping you inside a fake world, akin to the idea in the film The Matrix. Descartes used it to invoke a sense of scepticism, to make the point that disproving such an idea is no easy task, and that if it is true, then there is really very little we can be sure of. This is why he comes out with the famous "I think therefore I am" line. That's all he can be sure of if there is indeed, an evil demon deceiving him about everything else.

There's an intentional correlation with that idea and a similar one outlined by Ior Labron, but Lebron takes it a step further. He asks, what if the evil demon one day dropped the charade. Labron essentially argues that if you knew this entity had the power to reveal the truth, to liberate you from your prison, then you should surely question their intent, and be wary in considering them a liberator. The idea is a simple one, being; if they have the power to tear down the world of lies you have been living in, then surely they had a had in its creation too.

It's the only rational conclusion to draw. That was how Labron saw it, at least.

Keep in mind that Labron and his kind probably aren't the kind to gloat, either, meaning he could just as easily lament the "only rational conclusion." He is a teacher too, of wildly successful people, right? The sorts you see leading research projects and running around the Senate, one might imagine...

Maybe that is a thought Labron imparts to his students, before they head out into the world and go about their success and profit. A lesson about why some illusions need to be maintained. I leave you with that thought. Razz

..and this vague suggestion: If the idea of the wildly successful graduate piqued your interest, consider why someone is concerned that someone else was chosen for a task, and what that means.


...now, no more baiting Dropbear with philosophy plzkthnx. Time to hibernate again.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.02.17 01:20:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 17/02/2011 02:38:15
Huh... hidden in plain sight, you say... and someone concerned about someone else being chosen for a task...

Terokone
Posted - 2011.02.17 02:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

It helps make sense of lots of EVE concepts too, like cloning and the idea of a hardware-less, software-only entity, such as an infomorph.

You make that sound almost as if the Sleepers and Capsuleers have a lot in common. Namely, infomorphism in the digital sense, that sleepers are entirely digital and capsuleers are digital upon willingly clone-jumping, or unwillingly forced into a new clone. This brings up the idea that the mind and body are two completely separate entities, but synergistically dependent upon each other, whereas the mind cannot be a mind without a body, which is only a shell. The clone body acts as a zombie until a consciousness enters it.

The sleepers seem to have bypassed this necessity by not requiring a shell, or at least an organic shell, living their own lives within a system of their design, or perhaps of some other entity's design. But even still, the system, and by proxy the sleeper structures like the Mirror, could be construed as being their new shell until they wished to "move" to a new "world" via a data stream through space. Only at this point can the shell be considered gone. But still, the shell is still the structure of the data stream. By extension, space itself can be considered the shell, or even prison if you choose. From this thought, everything is a microcosm of an even greater macrocosm.

Thanks, Dropbear. Now you've got me opening more and more tabs. I fully enjoy thinking about this stuff. I've spent countless hours simply thinking about these ideas, but this is the first I've actually thought about it in connection with Eve. Functionalism is a new idea I've not experienced before, so I'm still stuck on a form of Cartesian dualism that I've gone and hijacked to become my own. Or maybe I've combined the two. I've tried to tie it into holographics and the implicate order. I find my ideas are closer to that of Plato, but I've added a third concept (body, soul, and spirit as separate entities) and mixed in a bit of the multiverse.

Must read more, but have class in the morning...

Just a few tabs I have open so far, for anyone curious:
Dualism
Emergentism
Infinite Regression
"Turtles all the way down" in relation to infinite regression
Implicate Order

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Posted - 2011.02.17 08:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
There's an intentional correlation with that idea and a similar one outlined by Ior Labron, but Lebron takes it a step further. He asks, what if the evil demon one day dropped the charade. Labron essentially argues that if you knew this entity had the power to reveal the truth, to liberate you from your prison, then you should surely question their intent, and be wary in considering them a liberator. The idea is a simple one, being; if they have the power to tear down the world of lies you have been living in, then surely they had a hand in its creation too.

I do hope you haven't given too much. Wink

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:25:00 - [12]
 


I've been doing some more reading Rene Descartes and I've clarified and expanded a few points in my first post. Any dedicated searcher needs to study his works in general and those links in particular.

--IC--

I think the big question that is at the heart of the mystery is Ontology (What is the true nature of reality).

That is the question that now faces Capsuleers and that is the question that faced the Jovians, the Sleepers, the Talocan and other ancients.

All the other questions we face are derivatives of that question. I don't know if any of the ancients found the answer, perhaps some did, perhaps they left a road map, perhaps not and they died out trying.

The search is not over, they certainly left a trail that we can follow. We know the question but we don't know the answer, the search is just beginning.

I believe the Jovians are in the process of passing on the baton of that search to Capsuleers to continue, we are to become both caretakers and explorers.

We may not become Jove but we are the rightful heirs.



Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:00:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 11/04/2011 19:00:30
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 10/04/2011 18:19:19

I meant to follow up on a few things in Dropbear's post much earlier...

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

As for why Descartes keeps cropping up, well firstly, as an amateur student of philosophy I had to namedrop someone...you see. It's quite hard to casually slip in a Nietzsche or Kierkegaard into canon though, that's the issue. You need someone whose name blends in a little better...Razz



Quite hard to do it casually, but I think perhaps Dropbear could not resist the temptation completely. A couple of observations:

On Nietzsche
Perhaps the most famous idea of Nietzsche is the ‹bermensch as chronicled in Thus Spoke Zarathustra; a literal translation of ‹bermensch is over-man or superior-man. Zarathustra is the master teacher who enables the ‹bermensch to become a masters of themselves which ultimately gives them power over (under/inferior) men. The ethics of being a Master transcend the strict limitation of good and evil.

Sansha Kuvakei is the epitome of the Zarathustra, Capsuleers his prospective ‹bermensch, True Citizens. The rest of humanity condemned to be true slaves. It should therefore be no surprise that he now styles himself Master Kuvakei.

Another interesting item I just remembered, Zarathustra has a dream, were he comes before a mirror as a child, what he sees in the mirror is devil who laughs at him.

Thus Spake Zarathustra by Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche at project Gutenberg.

On Kierkegaard
SÝren Kierkegaard's thinking on Despair shares many similarities with the Jovian Disease. I think there might also be a possible link with his idea of Alienation.


Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.27 20:21:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 27/04/2011 20:30:30
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 27/04/2011 20:22:33

Greg Egan approaches the issue of the Dream argument in a SciFi setting in his novel Permutation City.

His protagonist, believing he is within a simulated reality environment, uses a Garden of Eden Cellular Automaton to test/prove his belief.

I haven't read it yet (on order), but the summary seems to include recurrent themes we see in this mystery. The Evil Daemon/Dream argument, The Garden of Eden, Simulated Reality, Cellular Automaton (Rogue Drone, perhaps Sleepers). Also some of his other titles present some intriguing links/potential leads, but I haven't had chance to follow them up yet.

Max Tegmark, Cosmologist and advocate of the Multiverse theory
used this idea in his Quantum Suicide though experiment, which theoretically offers a potentially intriguing cure for the Jovian Disease (and powerful motivation) when looked at through the perspective of Kierkegaard's Despair.

I think Dropbear is our own Evil Dream Daemon Cool.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.04.27 23:52:00 - [15]
 

You dont have an off switch, do you? Here I am slacking off save with the knowledge I am well ahead of everyone else and you come along posting all kinds of extremely interesting things for all to see.

That Thus Spake thing is awesome.

Soothsayer, you say? Now where have I heard that before?


Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.28 09:31:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Tsual on 28/04/2011 09:34:50
Edited by: Tsual on 28/04/2011 09:32:23
Awensom collection of information here.

Originally by: Terokone

"Turtles all the way down"


Hum well reading about the unmoving mover I asked myself following:

What if the universe was set up in a way that what ever was the origin of the first motion can not be part of the movement as the origin of movement would then become a part of the movement of the whole itself and thus lead to infinite exponential acceleration?

I love my dislogical mind.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.28 18:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Interesting thread.

When considering the idea of the infomorph, the sort of questions outlined by Descartes' own ideas on body and mind inevitably come up. I remember thinking about it in vague, subsconscious terms as I scribbled Jita 4-4 together one hazy night stuck in JFK.

Ultimately Descartes' ideas about mind and body (wiki Cartesian dualism if you're interested) are flawed, though, in this two-time philosophy major dropout's opinion. Razz

Modern theories like Functionalism are better at describing the interaction between mind and body. In short, they say it's more like the body is hardware, and the mind is software. Obviously, that's a more useful theory for us sci fi fantasizers...Very Happy

It helps make sense of lots of EVE concepts too, like cloning and the idea of a hardware-less, software-only entity, such as an infomorph.

As for why Descartes keeps cropping up, well firstly, as an amateur student of philosophy I had to namedrop someone...you see. It's quite hard to casually slip in a Nietzsche or Kierkegaard into canon though, that's the issue. You need someone whose name blends in a little better...Razz

But then, secondly, the more I looked at Descartes, the more I realized it was providence, and he was the perfect fit in a pattern already overloaded with symbolism, bright distractions, and secrets hidden in plain sight. Twisted Evil

Some threads to follow so you don't get mad at me...Razz

The evil demon is a thought experiment into the idea of a grand deceiver. Some entity capable of keeping you inside a fake world, akin to the idea in the film The Matrix. Descartes used it to invoke a sense of scepticism, to make the point that disproving such an idea is no easy task, and that if it is true, then there is really very little we can be sure of. This is why he comes out with the famous "I think therefore I am" line. That's all he can be sure of if there is indeed, an evil demon deceiving him about everything else.

There's an intentional correlation with that idea and a similar one outlined by Ior Labron, but Lebron takes it a step further. He asks, what if the evil demon one day dropped the charade. Labron essentially argues that if you knew this entity had the power to reveal the truth, to liberate you from your prison, then you should surely question their intent, and be wary in considering them a liberator. The idea is a simple one, being; if they have the power to tear down the world of lies you have been living in, then surely they had a had in its creation too.

It's the only rational conclusion to draw. That was how Labron saw it, at least.

Keep in mind that Labron and his kind probably aren't the kind to gloat, either, meaning he could just as easily lament the "only rational conclusion." He is a teacher too, of wildly successful people, right? The sorts you see leading research projects and running around the Senate, one might imagine...

Maybe that is a thought Labron imparts to his students, before they head out into the world and go about their success and profit. A lesson about why some illusions need to be maintained. I leave you with that thought. Razz

..and this vague suggestion: If the idea of the wildly successful graduate piqued your interest, consider why someone is concerned that someone else was chosen for a task, and what that means.


...now, no more baiting Dropbear with philosophy plzkthnx. Time to hibernate again.


You have some NPC jamming issues to fix... Laughing

Darcy D'Spledide
Posted - 2011.05.29 15:14:00 - [18]
 

I seem to be posting in every w-space topic on this sleepy sunday afternoon, so I'll post here too.

I need this to happen, 'something' to happen. I quit a few months ago because it didn't, now I'm back and there's more teasing from Dropbear, Dust 514 hints and weird goings on in wormholes with Pilgrims, is **** finally getting real?

Arvash
Minmatar
Disciples of Tezcatlipoca
Posted - 2011.05.29 17:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Darcy D'Spledide
I seem to be posting in every w-space topic on this sleepy sunday afternoon, so I'll post here too.

I need this to happen, 'something' to happen. I quit a few months ago because it didn't, now I'm back and there's more teasing from Dropbear, Dust 514 hints and weird goings on in wormholes with Pilgrims, is **** finally getting real?


TonyG wrote a new book, Templar One. I suspect we will learn a bit more in game as a lead-up to the release of it in conjunction with Dust. I am also betting that the recent Amarr RP spotting is an event detailed in the book.

Jamyl goes exploring.

Anything we learn from here til the release will be carefully scripted I suspect.

Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:28:00 - [20]
 


Quote:
So blind is the curiosity by which mortals are possessed, that they often conduct their minds along unexplored routes, having no reason to hope for success, but merely being willing to risk the experiment of finding whether the truth they seek lies there.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:56:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
The long chains of simple and easy reasonings by means of which geometers are accustomed to reach the conclusions of their most difficult demonstrations, had led me to imagine that all things, to the knowledge of which man is competent, are mutually connected in the same way, and that there is nothing so far removed from us as to be beyond our reach, or so hidden that we cannot discover it, provided only we abstain from accepting the false for the true, and always preserve in our thoughts the order necessary for the deduction of one truth from another.


Cool

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.07.08 13:29:00 - [22]
 

Sleepers Dream. It's what they do. I think Wyke hit a jackpot here.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1547866

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.07.08 17:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Quote:
The long chains of simple and easy reasonings by means of which geometers are accustomed to reach the conclusions of their most difficult demonstrations, had led me to imagine that all things, to the knowledge of which man is competent, are mutually connected in the same way, and that there is nothing so far removed from us as to be beyond our reach, or so hidden that we cannot discover it, provided only we abstain from accepting the false for the true, and always preserve in our thoughts the order necessary for the deduction of one truth from another.


Cool


Be careful with that line of reasoning. Among their other pastimes, mathematicians also enjoy proving that certain things are unprovable.

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 17:56:00 - [24]
 

Never stop trolling.


 

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