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Kruger81
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.12 18:32:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kruger81 on 13/02/2011 11:41:24
After a long break from Faction Warfare, I came back to help turn systems back to Caldari, only to see what it have been depraved to.

First off, Faction/Pirate Friggs boost...
- Should not be allowed into Minor plexes, since they are much more powerfull then Dessys and t1 friggs, and thous render t1 friggs/dessys useless and makes Plex PvP very hard for newcommers.

Same with Pirate/Faction Cruisers, they belong in Majors with HAC's.

Plex spawn mechanics...

Before I gave up FacWar I decontested a system before DT, only to see it flipped the next day I logged inn. Shocked
- cmon, it should NEVER be that easy to flip/retake systems.
- And for the love off eve, give some reward to plexers, LP insted off VP or something.
- I agree I should be equal for all TZ's to plex, and not have the DT shuffel.

NPC unbalance
- Caldari have ECM, and win. VS Minnie, amarr, Gallente, all u need is a rifter to speed tank it
(Correct me if I am wrong about minnie/amarr plexes)
- IMO plexing should be hard, NPC's should web, neut, and force ppl to go in gangs, forcing other side to bring gang, and not haveing ppl fly arond in drams soloing all plexes.

As for CCP, I've heard many times that, "fixes" and that FacWar would be looked on, but that's a few years ago, and their "fixes" have made FacWar even worse.

The flaws I know off: plex gliches, standing agro glith, If ur in the alliance militia you don't get plex respawn, Alliance militia does not show as "blue" Shocked and much more.

Fixes I think should be implamented:
-Wardeccing a FacWar Corp, u wardec the militia.
-NPC rebalance
-plex reward
-Changing occupacy MUST have an effect on other militia
-Fix all glitches
-Remove Pirate/Faction ships from the plexes as said above

FacWar have 20 000 players, and deserves to be heard.
IMO the potesial of FacWar is awsome, if given love.

Benjamin Hamburg
Gallente
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.12 21:39:00 - [2]
 

I like that.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.02.13 04:07:00 - [3]
 

You spend a lot of time talking about balancing and improving plexing, but the underlying fact is that plexing doesn't matter. In my experience, most players don't do it at all, and why should they? Unless plexing means something, it's not worth either doing, or 'fixing.'

Kruger81
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.13 07:21:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
You spend a lot of time talking about balancing and improving plexing, but the underlying fact is that plexing doesn't matter. In my experience, most players don't do it at all, and why should they? Unless plexing means something, it's not worth either doing, or 'fixing.'


Well, I don't know any other game mechanic that makes T1 Friggs/Dessys and T1 Cruiser usefull.
Now days not many ppl plex, becuse it's a broken game mechanic(Glitches, Flipping a system can be retaken inn less than a day, It have no real rewards)

But in my experiance, before gliches and bugs where known, and ppl thought CCP would give reward(As they did talk about at the time)
Lots of ppl plexed, there where bunker fights, also u got very good fights in plexes.

I belive, if it where looked on, and fixes, reward given etc.
It would grow again.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.14 15:35:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
You spend a lot of time talking about balancing and improving plexing, but the underlying fact is that plexing doesn't matter. In my experience, most players don't do it at all, and why should they? Unless plexing means something, it's not worth either doing, or 'fixing.'

Select Plex.Sansha
Ctrl+C

Select Plex.FW
Ctrl+V


Include the whole LP mechanics (but now they dont go for concord LP shop but for racial FW LP shop, and you can exchange it for a certain rate for LP from corporations belonging to that faction) and AI. Now you can be happy.
Oh and make it so that the amount of NPCs and side they are on depends on uncloaked people in the plex. In other words: When gallente are fighting caldari NPCs and the Caldari FW comes in Gallente reinforcements will come in.

Eelis Kiy
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2011.02.14 16:27:00 - [6]
 

Don't agree with some of the other points you have listed but yes Occupancy needs attention.

The whole plexing thing was designed to encourage fights - which it can and does still do. But sadly, as you state, the boost to pirate frigates has had a detrimental affect on plexing. It would be better if the pie frigs were restricted from the smaller plexes.

Also would like to see Occupancy actually mean something, there have been many suggestions previously on what this could be such as giving system wide buffs to the sov holders or restricting station services from those not holding sov.


Sadly, this is post no# 8723262 on "Please CCP fix my FW" and as yet we're nowhere near the top of the todo list.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.15 15:50:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kruger81
Edited by: Kruger81 on 13/02/2011 11:41:24
…NPC unbalance
- Caldari have ECM, and win. VS Minnie, amarr, Gallente, all u need is a rifter to speed tank it
(Correct me if I am wrong about minnie/amarr plexes)
- IMO plexing should be hard, NPC's should web, neut, and force ppl to go in gangs, forcing other side to bring gang, and not haveing ppl fly arond in drams soloing all plexes…..
.


Kruger I agree with everything you say except the above. So I am 90% on board with you. But this part I really think is a bad idea.

You want fw occupancy to be *more* about pve. I want the opposite. I want the npcs removed and the actual players to be notified and fight for the plexes. As long as plexing is mainly a pve activity it will never get any respect in the game. It must be pvp if it is to be worth doing for anything other than isk.

As for giving isk for plexing I agree there should be some reward. But I don’t want plexxing to just be a new way to carebear. Occupancy wars should motivate people because it is a challenging game.

Consider player sov systems and all the wars fought for that. Do alliances take over space to make more isk, or do they make more isk to take over space? Why do they fight for sov so much? You see the motivation to take over space is because that is how you succeed at a rewarding/challenging game. If the game is not rewarding or challenging it will not be respected.

As long as fw is a fight against npcs it will not be a rewarding or a challenging game. It will only be worthy of luls from the eve community.

Perhaps you can clear out sansha or sleepers better than anyone in eve. Who really cares? Are we going to have an alliance tournament to see who can kill sleepers the fastest? Would anyone watch? Pvp is the thing that is most challenging and interesting in eve.

But you are right about everything else. FW could truly be great. Do the things you say and let the militias know exactly where plexes are entered, by whom, and ship types so they can go fight it out. FW will indeed be the best pvp in eve. And gaining occupancy will be challenging and worthwhile.

Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2011.02.15 16:56:00 - [8]
 

On FW I would suggest some simple to impliment, but effective ways to buff the game:
. Split by category and ease to impliment.

On plex's
Easy:
- improved AI implimented.
- big lp reward for plexes.
- Faction ships to be counted as Tech 2 (solves them all in one fell swoop).
Medium:
- all sides get various e-warefare, generic plex rat introduced if needs be (so never again complaints about bias in sides).
Hard:
- Offensive plex's 70% defensive faction spawn, 30% offensive faction spawn. I want to be in a war zone, so lets see the Navies fighting when you enter. It also immediately makes Plex's more of a viable zone as both sides will be under fire when fighting in them.

On missions:
Easy:
- if big loyalty point reward for plex, mission lp reward toned down.
Medium:
- missions to count towards sov just like plexes.
Hard:
- New AI introduced, (all mission would need redoing).

On FW in general:
ALL hard I fear for development.
- Consequences. Caldari conquered all of low sec, they got a badge. Eve is meant to be about consequences so let see either a bonus to caldari space or a penalty to Gallente in such circumstance.
- Annoucements in militia chat every five minutes when a bunker is vulnerable. Would lead to everyone charging the system just to find fights, which is good for everyone.
- War dec mechanics against militia to be revisited. Either treat as alliance, or allow alliances. No CCP half arsed nature about this.
- Reward for rank. At the moment, ironically, you actually provide a reward to the opposition for your rank (you are worth more lp). Simply apply a similar multiplier for rank. So if you are rank1 shooting a Rank 10 general is worth 10 lp, but if you are a rank 10 general, then it's worth 100 lp to shoot rank 10's and 10 lp to shoot rank 1's.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.15 17:09:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mana Sanqua
...- Consequences. Caldari conquered all of low sec, they got a badge. Eve is meant to be about consequences so let see either a bonus to caldari space or a penalty to Gallente in such circumstance....


This comes up allot but the same objection often comes up. If you give some bonuses to the side that is winning and penalize the losing side why would anyone join the losing side? Wars will quickly become lopsided won't they?

Mana Sanqua
Posted - 2011.02.15 17:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Mana Sanqua on 15/02/2011 17:19:05
Originally by: Cearain
This comes up allot but the same objection often comes up. If you give some bonuses to the side that is winning and penalize the losing side why would anyone join the losing side? Wars will quickly become lopsided won't they?


I've kept thinking about this since FW was introduced. It's needed to make people realise that there is a war going on. Does it have to be something that ruins balance though, I'm not so sure. You could make it so that those losing get a buff to the offensive and defensive plexes whilst penalizing their missions (and rewarding their opponents). The question is making sure both happen and that if one is being penalised on the rewards, then they get help with the combat. A similar idea is taxes rise on the defensive team then they had better get more FW NPC ships out there to reflect the extra spending. Neither of these ideas really solves the problem, but it makes it less static and more dynamic.

Though lets be honest, this is just dreaming. I'd give anything just to see CCP actually remember factional warfare.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.15 17:37:00 - [11]
 

Mana

I see what you are saying. There are ways to make the game more dynamic without leading to a completely lopsided war.

One thing that I have considered often is this. Lets say caldari have taken over 70% of what was originally the gallente space. At that point the actual people on planets of these contested systems should be pretty solid gallente race. Maybe they could have spies (behind the scene npc spies) make it so that at that point gallente could bring cruisers into the a minor and bcs into medium plexes etc. Caldari would still have the original restrictions.

If it gets to be the point that the Gallente are down to their last few systems then all the plexes there allow BSes for gallente. The idea is the gates would be "bugged" by the citizens who live in the last hold out systems for the race. And it would make for some pretty interesting game play.

Not only would have blobs of frigates trying to take down battleships, but perhaps races would try to take systems further from their base so that to capture the last holdout systems they could be close to their base.

But again as long as fw occupancy is pve it will be lulworthy and not worth doing.

Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.15 17:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kruger81

Fixes I think should be implamented:
-Wardeccing a FacWar Corp, u wardec the militia.
-NPC rebalance
-plex reward
-Changing occupacy MUST have an effect on other militia
-Fix all glitches
-Remove Pirate/Faction ships from the plexes as said above



I am admittedly a "non-plexer", i.e. I am in FW for the PvP and think plexing is utterly mind-numbingly boring, not to mention completely irrelevant to my game. Though, I'll do it on occasion if there is no PvP at hand or if friendlies who do take plexing more seriously than I need assistance.

However, having said that, I agree with the above suggestions with one addition: fix it so that the 'alternate' enemy faction also takes NPC aggro when plexing - i.e. Amarr in a Gallente plex...

Kruger81
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.16 12:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Kruger81
Edited by: Kruger81 on 13/02/2011 11:41:24
…NPC unbalance
- Caldari have ECM, and win. VS Minnie, amarr, Gallente, all u need is a rifter to speed tank it
(Correct me if I am wrong about minnie/amarr plexes)
- IMO plexing should be hard, NPC's should web, neut, and force ppl to go in gangs, forcing other side to bring gang, and not haveing ppl fly arond in drams soloing all plexes…..
.


Kruger I agree with everything you say except the above. So I am 90% on board with you. But this part I really think is a bad idea.

You want fw occupancy to be *more* about pve. I want the opposite. I want the npcs removed and the actual players to be notified and fight for the plexes. As long as plexing is mainly a pve activity it will never get any respect in the game. It must be pvp if it is to be worth doing for anything other than isk.

As for giving isk for plexing I agree there should be some reward. But I don’t want plexxing to just be a new way to carebear. Occupancy wars should motivate people because it is a challenging game.

Consider player sov systems and all the wars fought for that. Do alliances take over space to make more isk, or do they make more isk to take over space? Why do they fight for sov so much? You see the motivation to take over space is because that is how you succeed at a rewarding/challenging game. If the game is not rewarding or challenging it will not be respected.

As long as fw is a fight against npcs it will not be a rewarding or a challenging game. It will only be worthy of luls from the eve community.

Perhaps you can clear out sansha or sleepers better than anyone in eve. Who really cares? Are we going to have an alliance tournament to see who can kill sleepers the fastest? Would anyone watch? Pvp is the thing that is most challenging and interesting in eve.

But you are right about everything else. FW could truly be great. Do the things you say and let the militias know exactly where plexes are entered, by whom, and ship types so they can go fight it out. FW will indeed be the best pvp in eve. And gaining occupancy will be challenging and worthwhile.



I think you misunderstood me, as I didn't want Occupacy to bo more PVE, there should be a bonus reward for killing other militia inside plexes.

Also, an idea for missions is, that u could choose to do a PvP mission, like a lobby, go there and fight 2x gall t1 friggs/dessys etc, and have a site, with acceleration gate, that only allows the players who have agreed on mission on both sides.
(Like given a acceleration gate key to the mission)
It might be hard not to have it exploited, such with Deadspace fits etc



Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.16 14:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kruger81
I think you misunderstood me, as I didn't want Occupacy to bo more PVE, there should be a bonus reward for killing other militia inside plexes.




Then do away with npcs altogether. Just let the players know in a seperate intel channel exactly where plexes have been entered and let them go fight for them - if they choose. If players don't want to leave the large fleets to fight for the plexes, then they will lose occupancy to an opponent that spreads out and does several plexes at once. It's really a pretty simple fix.

Sinister Dextor
Posted - 2011.02.16 15:33:00 - [15]
 

FW, forgotten but not gone.

Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.16 20:13:00 - [16]
 

Reading the CSM minutes for June '10:

"CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust."

"CCP responded that lack of focus was not due to lack of enthusiasm, but more to availability and prioritization of resources."


So, more hurry up and wait...

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2011.02.16 20:36:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cromwell Savage
Reading the CSM minutes for June '10:

"CCP stated that all existing features are not a priority and no related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust."

"CCP responded that lack of focus was not due to lack of enthusiasm, but more to availability and prioritization of resources."


So, more hurry up and wait...


How that should really read.

FW was released half completed and has been left gathering dust since aside from the PVE missions.

I've dabbled a bit in FW. It stinks. No benefit for being on the winning side or possessing systems, monetary or otherwise. It's just fighting for the sake of fighting. While that may suit a lot of people to a T it doesn't really grip me. Though I'm not much of an RPer I was under the impression that Eve was a game where the players drove the story. FW would have been a perfect opportunity if implemented and run properly to have allowed players to shape New Eden outside of nullsec. It's definitely something worth raising.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.16 21:19:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 16/02/2011 21:21:10
Ok I have some concerns that consequences will lead to the fight becoming completely lopsided. Who would want to join the losing side with all the disadvantages? But I suppose there could be some consequences that only indirectly effect play.

Consider this:

Lets say Amarr gain occupancy of the system Evati. Right now there are a few minmatar npc stations there. Well lets say that when Amarr take over, there is a certain percentage chance that those stations become amarr npc stations. So a Boundless Creation might become a Carthum Conglomerate.

The chance of this happening may depend on how long occupancy is held. Say every 6 months you roll the dice on any enemy faction corps leaving. There may also be a chance (smaller chance) that a corp from the sister faction would move in – so perhaps Lai Dai (Caldari) would move in. There would be new agents that go in to that etc.

The RP story would be Boundless decides to close down facilities in Evati due to a sudden increase in taxes and sells station to Carthum/Lai Dai. (or some such)

Now it would be an indirect benefit because you usually have high standings with the faction you fight for. So you would gain new agents and resources for those in your faction. But then again if one side loses many agents the value of that lp should see a slight rise because the goods are more scarce.

So it would be a decent storyline consequence that wouldn’t likely lead to a lopsided war.

Would this work for actual militia stations? That might be going too far – and lead to a lopsided war. But if they added some decent faction specific items to the fw lp store there would be a natural balance. Those lp would be worth more. I certainly think many amarr mission runners would fight to keep huola.

But right now the only after lunch in London plexing mechanics are so bad that I am hesitant to put much weight on it.

Just an idea. Maybe it's bad.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.17 11:44:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 17/02/2011 11:44:25
The CSM has repeatedly asked CCP to iterate on it. We discussed in june the many problems FW faces:

* sov gain/loss is meaningless
* contesting sov is boring and opaque
* FW pvp activity has no effect on sov
* FW missions have no effect on sov
* and more

Overall, I've always had the impression that to make FW CCP rolled a katamari damaci ball through the game design department and just implemented whatever stuck to it. There's no synergy between the various FW gameplay elements, no overall purpose to FW and a lot of gameplay that is needlessly boring (capture timers, etc).

Unfortunately, FW does not seem to have a very high priority while Dust and Incarna are being rolled out. I did get the sense that there is real willingness to iterate on FW, but only AFTER they've finished rolling out Dust and Incarna and - as Oveur said - go back over the older gameplay systems and iterate where needed. So FW iteration may happen, but not any time soon.

If you feel CCP should put more effort on it sooner, vote for a CSM candidate who you think will best bring that message to CCP.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.17 14:03:00 - [20]
 

FW was actually one of the best things CCP has ever done.

It is the only thing they ever did to actually promote small gang pvp, through the plexing system.

The idea was players would pvp in plexes and lose ships. How would they get isk to replace them? They could no longer do afk missions in high sec because of the war dec. So they developed FW missions.

FW missions need to be balanced between the faction no doubt, Caldari can apparently solo in sb and that is too easy. For Amarr you need 2 ships or at least a BC to run level 4s. But other than tweaking that CCP successfully made a whole new type of low sec mission system – successfully.

The only thing that is really broken are the occupancy plexing mechanics. Yes that is a big one I agree.

Why no action? Well first of all players disagree about allot of things. Some players want FW to put even *more* emphasis on shooting red crosses. Others want FW to be more about pvp.

Some players want there to big consequences to occupancy. Others tend to see that will just lead to everyone joining the winning team.

Yes we all agree that if the post downtime spawn mechanic is bad. This needs to be fixed and I think this has has been passed by csm. But the mechanics of how you most efficiently do plexes will remain the same. The rats will still be a huge disincentive to pvp for the vast majority of pvpers in eve. The other militia still won’t know where you are plexing.

Some people don’t mind taking rat damage while they pvp and they do get good fights in plexes. But most people think pvp while tanking rats sucks.

In sum even if CCP implemented everything the CSM proposed people still wouldn’t plex. It would still be a mainly pve activity.

Players simply have not gotten on board as to what they would like to see that would really benefit plexxing.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.17 21:04:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cearain
..Players simply have not gotten on board as to what they would like to see that would really benefit plexxing.

They have, we have. There was a furor of discussion in the first year of FW where all the RP, PvP and Plexing parties participated .. eventually it just dawned on us that the small bug-fixes is all we are going to get for a long time and people stopped caring.

Goes back to the New = More customers vs. Better = Happier customers, CCP has started leaning heavily in favour of the almighty dollar so improvements on existing gameplay is forever stuck on the Soon™ list.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.19 23:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cromwell Savage
Reading the CSM minutes for June '10:

"CCP stated that FW is not a priority and no FW-related changes will be considered until after Incarna and Dust."

"CCP responded that lack of focus was not due to lack of enthusiasm, but more to availability and prioritization of resources."





Well they are being honest. When you are honest sometimes that means telling customers some things they may not want to hear. I wasn’t happy to hear this either. But from a business perspective and the work fw will require to do right I can understand.

They are currently trying to do incarna right and that requires large amounts of resources. If they want to do fw right it will also require a large amount of resources. I just hope whne December 2011 rolls around they will be able to start making it as good as it should be.

BTW when they released apoc 1.5 they said they would continue to update fw. I think that was the intent, but I think they then realized they had to change some of the actual mechanics.


Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:00:00 - [23]
 

Please fix the L4 stealth bomber farming. It is extremely silly.


 

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