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April Rose
Posted - 2011.02.12 02:04:00 - [61]
 

Why do Russians complain about salvaging when CCP basically made them a super salvager? The NC has to deal with the most annoying rats outside of sleepers. Getting jammed is one of the most annoying thing in the game in pve.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.02.12 02:17:00 - [62]
 

Another change of course would be to add Incursion style content for all the NPC factions (empire & pirate alike). Then have the Incursions favour the systems with the highest NPC kill counts.

Moving belts to grav sites would help reduce the efficiency of botters too, right up to the point where bots start being able to probe better than humans can >.<

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.12 03:44:00 - [63]
 

riverini,

Why did you only focus on bots in the drone regions instead of gathering information from all four corners of the galaxy so you could present it to the EVE community in an unbiased format? No one will take your article seriously because it will be viewed as some meta gaming of the Northern Coalitions secondary approach to fight the Russians in the Drone regions because their first attempt failed.

You really should have waited till you had dirt on everyone first and present it all at the same time. Now, no one will take you for more than some biased reporter pushing NC propaganda, like you always have.

Just a bit of advice for you. Wink

Voith
Posted - 2011.02.12 04:27:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
riverini,

Why did you only focus on bots in the drone regions instead of gathering information from all four corners of the galaxy so you could present it to the EVE community in an unbiased format? No one will take your article seriously because it will be viewed as some meta gaming of the Northern Coalitions secondary approach to fight the Russians in the Drone regions because their first attempt failed.

You really should have waited till you had dirt on everyone first and present it all at the same time. Now, no one will take you for more than some biased reporter pushing NC propaganda, like you always have.

Just a bit of advice for you. Wink


Good day Internets, I see you have met my friend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation


Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.02.12 05:42:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Navirios
Lol you guys dont understand ****....

If you actually tried to realize how bots work ,rather than talking crap on the forums, you would come to the conclusion that they abuse the ability to read pixels from the client.

BitBlt, ReadPixel in C++
PixelGetColor, PixelSearch in AutoIT just to name a few.

~~~~~~ S O L U T I O N ~~~~~~~

CCP make it impossible to read such data from the client.

There you go, problem solved ...


If it's impossible to read this data, then how the hell is a human going to be able to read it off of the monitor? Clue for the clueless: sooner or later, the data must exist in memory in an unencrypted format in order to be presented to the user.

There are things you can do to make it harder to programmatically access this data, but it will never be *impossible*.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2011.02.12 06:49:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Navirios
Lol you guys dont understand ****....

If you actually tried to realize how bots work ,rather than talking crap on the forums, you would come to the conclusion that they abuse the ability to read pixels from the client.

BitBlt, ReadPixel in C++
PixelGetColor, PixelSearch in AutoIT just to name a few.

~~~~~~ S O L U T I O N ~~~~~~~

CCP make it impossible to read such data from the client.

There you go, problem solved ...


If it's impossible to read this data, then how the hell is a human going to be able to read it off of the monitor? Clue for the clueless: sooner or later, the data must exist in memory in an unencrypted format in order to be presented to the user.

There are things you can do to make it harder to programmatically access this data, but it will never be *impossible*.


My understanding is that many of the bots do read from memory. OCR/screen scraping is much less efficient and accurate than reading from memory values directly. It sounds like CCP needs to lock down the client better.

I wish CCP would just implement some kind of punkbuster/Warden type of scanner to add another layer of security. I know that I may be in the minority, but I've seen games pull it off pretty well. Of course the latest bots are always a step ahead, but the name of the game is making it harder to maintain and upgrade bots, as well as thinning the herd by immediately banning all of the people who download old bot versions.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.12 08:52:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
riverini,

Why did you only focus on bots in the drone regions instead of gathering information from all four corners of the galaxy so you could present it to the EVE community in an unbiased format? No one will take your article seriously because it will be viewed as some meta gaming of the Northern Coalitions secondary approach to fight the Russians in the Drone regions because their first attempt failed.

Well, duh... Who do you think supposedly leaked the anti-botting plans to EN24?

The NC bot-master in one simple leak made sure bot makers update their software and EN24 uses that publicity to strike out at the russians.

laksmi2
Posted - 2011.02.12 09:51:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: laksmi2 on 12/02/2011 10:16:38
do u really think ccp will let go of the 1 milion dollar per month they earn with botting accounts?

only thing that would work is us leaving en masse and our posting here shows that we care/invested too much to do that.

nc has same level of bots than drone russians imo. i was member of battlestars in wi alliance for the max 2 campaign from april to june. even on the hight of the campaign out of maybe 15 online members 7-10 were botting up in branch and could in no way be contacted, while maybe 4 could be found for the frontline. will be the same in most of those entities.


bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.

bots devaluate human work they need to go.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.02.12 15:01:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: laksmi2
bots having no influence on the economy? drone region bots pump 100 billion in aloys into the market every day. and this number pales in comparision to the minerals gained from the alloys that are made straight into hundreds of supercaps.

bots devaluate human work they need to go.
That 100 bil a day in isk and minerals is like saying a billion dollars is alot of money to a modern industrialized country. Yeah its sure a hell of a lot more than you personally have or can easily make but then again when put up against the amount of isk and minerals mission runners inject into the ecomomy each day its a literal pittance. Or are you saying bots now outnumber mission runners? Shocked

laksmi2
Posted - 2011.02.12 15:20:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: laksmi2 on 12/02/2011 15:32:12
Edited by: laksmi2 on 12/02/2011 15:26:42
those 100 b are just the minerals that come to the market every single day. as mentioned much more than that goes into supercap production.

are you aware that a large percentage of mission runners are bots?

and to the question on human mission runners online just now and all the different bots running just now: could be a very close call which category is more numerous. id say bots but thats an opinion only.

contract spam bots, mining bots, ratting bots, courier mission bots, combat mission bots, trade bots. probably there are a couple of pi bots running already too.

Abbot Nails
Posted - 2011.02.12 15:28:00 - [71]
 

there are bots everywhere in 0.0 and i am sure Riverini knows this. he also stated that it was a "Teaser" which is not a complete list but something to make you take notice. i am looking forward to this article and i hope that CCP finally starts to do something about it.

however my hopes are not high because its not new polished content.

Ifly Uwalk
Caldari
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2011.02.12 16:50:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Abbot Nails
there are bots everywhere in 0.0 and i am sure Riverini knows this.

Sure he does.
Originally by: Abbot Nails
he also stated that it was a "Teaser" which is not a complete list but something to make you take notice.

No it's just NC propaganda.

I'm waiting for a list of all the bots operating in the Vale of the Silent area. That should be interesting.

Khandara Seraphim
Amarr
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2011.02.12 17:04:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
I'm waiting for a list of all the bots operating in the Vale of the Silent area. That should be interesting.



You don't understand! Everyone in the NC is a carebear anyway so we actually just actively use our mains to endlessly chain rats.

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Amarr
PORSCHE AG
Posted - 2011.02.13 13:15:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
riverini,

Why did you only focus on bots in the drone regions instead of gathering information from all four corners of the galaxy so you could present it to the EVE community in an unbiased format? No one will take your article seriously because it will be viewed as some meta gaming of the Northern Coalitions secondary approach to fight the Russians in the Drone regions because their first attempt failed.

You really should have waited till you had dirt on everyone first and present it all at the same time. Now, no one will take you for more than some biased reporter pushing NC propaganda, like you always have.

Just a bit of advice for you. Wink



If he gather only part of information from only part of galaxy that does not mean that there is not serious problem...
and if he attacks bots, he attacks all bots by this... not only russian bots... and if CCP do something all bots will suffer...

i dont say that this is not look on the problem from only one angle... but it attacks problem on complete scale... not only a part of it...



p.s.

The Rise of the ISK Printing Machines: A Case Study on Bots.

interesting reading...

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.13 14:35:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Iceni
De-botting the game could be sooo easy. Like having an in-game message that needs a simple human response every so often. A bit like a 'dead man's handle' that train drivers have, to make sure that someone is still breathing at the controls.

So c'mon CCP, why not?


There's nothing - not one single thing - that you can implement that a player can do but a bot can't.

You will never find a technical solution to what is essentially a social problem. The GM's just need to step in, identify and then ban the botters. (ie: Anyone who's been active for more than 12 hours is either botting or needs a time out.)

While we're throwing around the ban hammer in the drone regions and other 0.0, we should also kill off the empire bots in Motsu and the other mission hubs.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.13 14:38:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Navirios
Lol you guys dont understand ****....

If you actually tried to realize how bots work ,rather than talking crap on the forums, you would come to the conclusion that they abuse the ability to read pixels from the client.

BitBlt, ReadPixel in C++
PixelGetColor, PixelSearch in AutoIT just to name a few.

~~~~~~ S O L U T I O N ~~~~~~~

CCP make it impossible to read such data from the client.

There you go, problem solved ...


If it's impossible to read this data, then how the hell is a human going to be able to read it off of the monitor? Clue for the clueless: sooner or later, the data must exist in memory in an unencrypted format in order to be presented to the user.

There are things you can do to make it harder to programmatically access this data, but it will never be *impossible*.


My understanding is that many of the bots do read from memory. OCR/screen scraping is much less efficient and accurate than reading from memory values directly. It sounds like CCP needs to lock down the client better.

I wish CCP would just implement some kind of punkbuster/Warden type of scanner to add another layer of security. I know that I may be in the minority, but I've seen games pull it off pretty well. Of course the latest bots are always a step ahead, but the name of the game is making it harder to maintain and upgrade bots, as well as thinning the herd by immediately banning all of the people who download old bot versions.


Let's do what Sony did and install what amounts to a root kit on every users PC. Then we'll be extra safe for sure. (Until someone comes up with a way around it.) The answer is for CCP to go down to the GM room, open the door, pick a guy from that at random and tell him "ok, for the next 2 weeks you are identifying and banning botters."

It can't get any simpler than that.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2011.02.13 18:00:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 13/02/2011 18:00:06
Originally by: Doctor Ungabungas
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Navirios
Lol you guys dont understand ****....

If you actually tried to realize how bots work ,rather than talking crap on the forums, you would come to the conclusion that they abuse the ability to read pixels from the client.

BitBlt, ReadPixel in C++
PixelGetColor, PixelSearch in AutoIT just to name a few.

~~~~~~ S O L U T I O N ~~~~~~~

CCP make it impossible to read such data from the client.

There you go, problem solved ...


If it's impossible to read this data, then how the hell is a human going to be able to read it off of the monitor? Clue for the clueless: sooner or later, the data must exist in memory in an unencrypted format in order to be presented to the user.

There are things you can do to make it harder to programmatically access this data, but it will never be *impossible*.


My understanding is that many of the bots do read from memory. OCR/screen scraping is much less efficient and accurate than reading from memory values directly. It sounds like CCP needs to lock down the client better.

I wish CCP would just implement some kind of punkbuster/Warden type of scanner to add another layer of security. I know that I may be in the minority, but I've seen games pull it off pretty well. Of course the latest bots are always a step ahead, but the name of the game is making it harder to maintain and upgrade bots, as well as thinning the herd by immediately banning all of the people who download old bot versions.


Let's do what Sony did and install what amounts to a root kit on every users PC. Then we'll be extra safe for sure. (Until someone comes up with a way around it.) The answer is for CCP to go down to the GM room, open the door, pick a guy from that at random and tell him "ok, for the next 2 weeks you are identifying and banning botters."

It can't get any simpler than that.


Some drm/anti-cheat device like that by CCP would result in me swiftly cancelling my accounts, and I know many others would follow .. just look at the backlash games get in review sites, boycotting, etc., due to draconian drm. Then, to top it all off, it would fail to have any impact because it would take 12minutes for some guy to figure out a crack for it. I don't think ccp are stupid enough to think any automated system would work as anything more than a temporary inconvenience to botters and humans alike.

What you say is true, they just need to put some GMs onto it. If a player, without access to the server side info., can put together a pile of data like this and connect some VERY SIMPLE dots, there's no excuse for ccp not doing the same. So it comes down to do they want to lose the subscription money now, due to banning bots, or lose subscription money later due to the game going to **** if the botting gets out of hand?

Jonathan Malcom
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.13 19:06:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
Some drm/anti-cheat device like that by CCP would result in me swiftly cancelling my accounts, and I know many others would follow .. just look at the backlash games get in review sites, boycotting, etc., due to draconian drm. Then, to top it all off, it would fail to have any impact because it would take 12minutes for some guy to figure out a crack for it. I don't think ccp are stupid enough to think any automated system would work as anything more than a temporary inconvenience to botters and humans alike.

What you say is true, they just need to put some GMs onto it. If a player, without access to the server side info., can put together a pile of data like this and connect some VERY SIMPLE dots, there's no excuse for ccp not doing the same. So it comes down to do they want to lose the subscription money now, due to banning bots, or lose subscription money later due to the game going to **** if the botting gets out of hand?


"DRM" stands for "Digital Rights Management." Educate yourself here.

What is being suggested is an anti-cheating mechanism in the vein of Punkbuster. Nearly every multiplayer FPS, and certainly every major one, has a similar anti-cheating mechanism. They are reasonably effective and unintrusive. So stop raging about something you don't understand.

betty drunkenlord
Posted - 2011.02.13 20:24:00 - [79]
 

Bots killing drones -> alloys fueling substantial supercap production -> supercap sales on ebay -> RMT
Bots killing other stuff -> faction/officer mods/isk -> all sold on ebay -> RMT

People protecting bots -> crowding out real players who could live in that space and enjoy pvp/pve content along with it.

No matter how many or what bots kill, they always finally fuel RMT. If CCP doesn't stop problem now it only going to get worse.


Fix Lag
Posted - 2011.02.13 20:31:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: MpozoY
The main difference between botting in the NC and the DR is that there aren't any humans in the DR to cover up the bots.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.02.13 20:41:00 - [81]
 

Just remove bounties from belt rats. If people want to rat, they have to do plexes instead of warping from belt to belt. Doesn't solve the faction/office drops though.


Fix Lag
Posted - 2011.02.13 20:42:00 - [82]
 

Ratting bots already do plexes, dur.

Of course CCP could make it so they don't automatically show up without probes...

...But that would be expecting them to do something about botting, now, wouldn't it.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.13 21:36:00 - [83]
 

Wouldn't be surprised if the "Bot Regions" slumlords are behind some of the DoS attacks.


Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.13 21:38:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
riverini,

Why did you only focus on bots in the drone regions instead of gathering information from all four corners of the galaxy so you could present it to the EVE community in an unbiased format? No one will take your article seriously because it will be viewed as some meta gaming of the Northern Coalitions secondary approach to fight the Russians in the Drone regions because their first attempt failed.

You really should have waited till you had dirt on everyone first and present it all at the same time. Now, no one will take you for more than some biased reporter pushing NC propaganda, like you always have.

Just a bit of advice for you. Wink


Could it be because the "Bot Regions" are where the most concentrated amount of botting happens? There are whole groups of people there who it has been reported live off an income made from RMT'ing ISK farmed there.

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2011.02.13 21:46:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Caldariftw123 on 13/02/2011 21:48:30
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Some drm/anti-cheat device like that by CCP would result in me swiftly cancelling my accounts, and I know many others would follow .. just look at the backlash games get in review sites, boycotting, etc., due to draconian drm. Then, to top it all off, it would fail to have any impact because it would take 12minutes for some guy to figure out a crack for it. I don't think ccp are stupid enough to think any automated system would work as anything more than a temporary inconvenience to botters and humans alike.

What you say is true, they just need to put some GMs onto it. If a player, without access to the server side info., can put together a pile of data like this and connect some VERY SIMPLE dots, there's no excuse for ccp not doing the same. So it comes down to do they want to lose the subscription money now, due to banning bots, or lose subscription money later due to the game going to **** if the botting gets out of hand?


"DRM" stands for "Digital Rights Management." Educate yourself here.

What is being suggested is an anti-cheating mechanism in the vein of Punkbuster. Nearly every multiplayer FPS, and certainly every major one, has a similar anti-cheating mechanism. They are reasonably effective and unintrusive. So stop raging about something you don't understand.


I know what DRM is, I said it with "/anti-cheat device" as my point was more that ANY interfering software coming with EVE would put me off. Try reading my post before trying to educate me on something I fully understand. They can be good for thigns like FPS where they will prevent various hacks from being used .. in fact NOT having them oftne leads to a total cheat-or-lose scenario in many goods .. they are not effective at stopping bot behaviour in repetitive tasks, however. Educate yourself a little bit. Even those "Type in what the word says in the box!" 'captchas' have been cracked.

Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.02.14 00:14:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Malcom
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Some drm/anti-cheat device like that by CCP would result in me swiftly cancelling my accounts, and I know many others would follow .. just look at the backlash games get in review sites, boycotting, etc., due to draconian drm. Then, to top it all off, it would fail to have any impact because it would take 12minutes for some guy to figure out a crack for it. I don't think ccp are stupid enough to think any automated system would work as anything more than a temporary inconvenience to botters and humans alike.

What you say is true, they just need to put some GMs onto it. If a player, without access to the server side info., can put together a pile of data like this and connect some VERY SIMPLE dots, there's no excuse for ccp not doing the same. So it comes down to do they want to lose the subscription money now, due to banning bots, or lose subscription money later due to the game going to **** if the botting gets out of hand?


"DRM" stands for "Digital Rights Management." Educate yourself here.

What is being suggested is an anti-cheating mechanism in the vein of Punkbuster. Nearly every multiplayer FPS, and certainly every major one, has a similar anti-cheating mechanism. They are reasonably effective and unintrusive. So stop raging about something you don't understand.


And Punkbuster still won't be able to stop the bots from screen scraping and passing input manually.

I don't see why you people can't get it. There is nothing (in eve) that a person can do but a computer program can't. They can even read those capcha images better than I can. Rather than begging CCP to spend a fortune on programmatic solutions that won't even work 100% at launch, tell them to invest that man power in making the game better and hire some chump for minimum wage to 'fix botting' with the ban stick.

And for all those people complaining about the drone regions and the NC, don't forget that most of the botting is done safely in Empire. You don't think that LP is being devalued by itself do you?




Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.02.14 00:29:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Beating the bots in 4 steps:
1) make cloaky alt
2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens
3) Safespot and cloak
4) lol as they all ctrl-q or ss/cloak and wait for you to leave.


So a human has to login to ensure a robot doesn't.

That is the opposite of efficiency.

syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.02.14 01:54:00 - [88]
 

All this bot whine, and no one has complained about the 0.01 isk market bots.

There, I did.

They're pulling information of the game too and using it to beat out others. Go to any hub and play the 0.01 game and you will see how fast your orders will get undercut. I spent 3 hours one day with 40 unique items and I was being instantly undercut on about 12 of them. Wait 5 minutes, change your order, and undercut instantly again.

While I'm sure there are a large number of actual people undercutting each other manually. The speed and the length of time doing this is just not human. Anyone who would trade constantly on the market would have the maximum number of sell/buy orders available to them and there is no way they could be watching all of them at once to undercut others instantly on all of them.

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.14 02:17:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: Caldari Citizen20090217
Beating the bots in 4 steps:
1) make cloaky alt
2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens
3) Safespot and cloak
4) lol as they all ctrl-q or ss/cloak and wait for you to leave.


So a human has to login to ensure a robot doesn't.

That is the opposite of efficiency.


It's pretty efficient actually.

1) make alt with cloaky t3
2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens
3) Safespot and cloak
4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system
5) get the money
6) report them

But it may go in the wrong direction:

1) make alt with cloaky t3
2) warp to systems frequented by said 23/7 farmer ravens
3) Safespot and cloak
4) ask for a reasonable ransom to leave the system
5) get the money
6) report them
7) you get banned because CCP believe you have bought isk from them.


Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.14 02:20:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: syphurous
All this bot whine, and no one has complained about the 0.01 isk market bots.


This is just because everybody hate traders.



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