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blankseplocked So, how communist/national socialist are alliance bosses really then?
 
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Lord Steffwyn
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:29:00 - [31]
 

The problem is that you need someone in charge.
Committees don't work are there are alway people who think they have the answers (when then don't) or worse, when there is more than one answer (and their view is as good as anyone elses).
To be a good leader (on the basis of getting co-operation rather than enforcing it), you need energy, time, fairness, and competency; and obviously a desire to lead.
I have been playing MMOs for many years, when I started, I though I would like to lead my brave warband (fleet). However a after a few days of being in groups, I realised that is the last thing I want to do in my free time (I run 24:7 teams 10 - 50 engineers). I normally play healing classes as no one ever expect them to lead; I have run the odd group / raid, but that only confirmed my desire not to do it lol.
So what characteristics are necessary to get to be in charge? Interesting question given that in Eve you really can't force players to do things (unlike work, or living in a Totalitarian Regime). So the only way is presenting them with something that they are going to get something (like isk) or something they will enjoy (roaming PVP wolfpack).
So I think Eve leaders basically give out candy to keep their pets happy. So does that make player power hungry to have a team of pets to do their bidding? Well probably deeply disturbed but not enough to get locked up.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:35:00 - [32]
 

You clearly know nothing about communism.

The USSR was not communist (nor could it be).. China is not communist (no matter how many morons claim it is).

Also, communism does not have the capability to be evil. It is an economic system. The evil is the government (be it dictator, democracy, monarchy, etc).

Unfortunately, I have no experience with 0.0 corps, so cannot speak to their dictatorness, or lack of such.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:35:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Merouk Baas on 11/02/2011 02:38:11

Leading an alliance or a corp is a tiring, time-intensive, cat-herding experience. Why don't YOU try to organize 10-500 idiots who are either drunk or hyped-up on sugar and coffee, and see if you can do it with gentle persuasion and gifts of ISK to everyone. YOU try to get a few people to log in at 5 AM to save a POS because if they don't they'll lose their own ships parked in said POS.

Power-hungry my ass.

EDIT: Also, communism doesn't work. Sounds awesome on paper (to some people), but in RL if you take any sort of utopia and apply corruption, you get something horrible.

Captain Question Time
Posted - 2011.02.11 03:34:00 - [34]
 

well, I think my main problem here is I don't in fact know much about eve :P

this has become clear

....
communism - used by corrupt leaders
fascism - used by corrupt leaders
democracy - used by corrupt leaders

eve - actually not really related to the question at all, more of a hobby and pastime, where some people have gotten the lions share of responsibility and get stressed out like that guy ^.. sorry to people who are offended...

eve politics - WTF??.. i dont undertand, I suppose help yer mates or a good contact, send over resources and have territory and defense agreements

nighty night o7

Sharon Anne
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.11 06:37:00 - [35]
 

Empire is the right form of government
Democracy is the right way
Capitalism is the way
The individual is sovereign
always.

Pretty kitty
Posted - 2011.02.11 06:42:00 - [36]
 

I killed people in the army for money in reality.
I now kill people in eve for free.

Sometimes we are drawn to the things we love no matter what.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.11 06:43:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Captain Question Time
So, how communist are alliance bosses really then?



You're confusing Tranquility with Serenity...

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.02.11 06:54:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Merouk Baas
EDIT: Also, communism doesn't work. Sounds awesome on paper (to some people), but in RL if you take any sort of system of government and apply corruption, you get something horrible.


Fixed that for you :)

Any system will work just as well as the people running it and providing leadership. If you have leaders who are only looking out for themselves, any system of government will become terribly corrupted. Even religious oligarchy can work if the leadership is invested in the future of the people they govern, rather than the future of the oligarchy itself.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.11 07:28:00 - [39]
 

everyone has socialist aspects, as soon as you levy a tax for a public service you're entering socialism.

and no, communism doesn't have leaders, well its not supposed to, but elected chairmen.

that was the original idea. soviets were a series of elected bodies which eventually got up to national soviets which were all elected.

don't confuse revolutionary bolshivism, leninism or stalinism with what Marx wrote. and ignore Glenn beck to, he's paid to lie about what socialism actually is.

AterraX
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.11 07:40:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
Originally by: Yiffi
Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
What's bad or evil about communism? Obviously you have never read Marx.



http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/communistbodycount.php


Just because those regimes call themselfs communists doesnt mean they are. Do read some Karl Marx.


Cut the BS.

Show me 1 successfull transistion to communism that didn't end i repression and dictatorship...or crawl back into your stiking red hole...troll.

Better dead than red...

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.02.11 07:47:00 - [41]
 

Never been a true communist society as far as I know. We are too focused on people on pedastals and too self involved for it to work for us.

Ants, Bees, .. do it well

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.02.11 08:42:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Alpheias on 11/02/2011 08:43:16
Stupidity doesn't come because of ideology, religious or philosophical beliefs. It is inherent in all humans, more so in some than others.

Mr M
Posted - 2011.02.11 08:46:00 - [43]
 

Communism came as a reaction in places where the government where too weak or too corrupted to control the capitalistic powers. It's no wonder that communism grew big in the late 19th century when men, women and children had to work to put food on the tables. And that wasn't just in Russia, you had child labour in Britain and the USA too.

egegergergsdgedgege
Posted - 2011.02.11 08:59:00 - [44]
 

Communism works in game and real life where a groups of people trusts each other. Therefor the group of people has to be rather small. There are many examples of communistic working communities in our world.

Families for example work communistic. You would charge your kids for food or their room. Same with your wife. Most things you do benefit the community and not only yourself.
There are many more "primitiv" cultures that still dont have a concept of personal ownership. If there is cow for example it doesnt belong to a single person but the whole clan. Or if there is a tool everybody can and will use it.
Communism stops working as soon as people start asking what the other guy did and why the other guy does way less for the community than me. This happens as soon as the community becomes too big normally.

In eve communistic structures in corps can work very well and they do not require some kind of dictator on the top. In fact communistic corps stop working as soon as a single person grabs everything for himself. Communistic corps work best if the corp is a rather small group of friends. The concept is easy and simple. Everything you do, you do for the corp. Run some missions? Throw the loot in the corp hangar and donate the bounties to the corp. Do some industry? The money you made goes to the corp. And so on. Therefore you will get everything frm the corp too. Its like sharing one hangar and one wallet.
It stops working as soon as some people start asking why the other guy did get the shiny new battleship even though he does way less than they do. And many communistic corps broke apart because of this after they grew to big.

Floating Lemming
Posted - 2011.02.11 09:14:00 - [45]
 

Well some alliances are run like theocracies, where the leader is a prophet and his closest circle of advisors(directors) are the priesthood.

Ofc a lot of those only last untill said leader gets less active and players loose our on their messiah.

Eastman Color
Posted - 2011.02.11 09:55:00 - [46]
 

The trouble with communism is't it scales poorly.

Small numbers of people, that think the same way and are happy to work towards the benefit of the group work really well.

Look at some of the small communities\comunes\cabutses around the world.

Once it starts scaling up people start getting different ideals about many things which breaks it down quite quickly.

I like the idea though, everyone working together and progressing as one

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.11 10:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
What's bad or evil about communism? Obviously you have never read Marx.
The fact that it has to be implemented using humans. It's a… ehm… suboptimal combination, let's say.

Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.11 13:44:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: egegergergsdgedgege
Communism stops working as soon as people start asking what the other guy did and why the other guy does way less for the community than me.


One day we're all going to go to Heaven, sit around on clouds playing harps and we'll all be happy and content with that forever.

:nods:

We, as human beings, have drive built into us. We have a competitive spirit. It is what has led us to create, both economically, materially, artistically - in all spheres. But some of us have less drive than others.

You'll find them sitting on street corners. Even here, in a social-democracy, where the taxes of those with drive and ambition pay a fair wage to those who have no desire to contribute to society they sit on street corners. They have access to free education; grants for just about everything under the sun.

And still. Human beings are flawed, strange creatures. A Communist society, as described, can never exist. There will always be resentment. There will always be somebody who works a bit harder than the others. There are some who will sit in the shade and watch. It's just the way people are made.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2011.02.11 14:52:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Captain Question Time
it's not a philosophy it's actually genetically us, we're naturally good people


With regard to people, this is the worst presumption you could ever make.

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.02.11 15:05:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Captain Question Time
Just how much does eve reveal about the more power hungry among us?... Do the most rotten and evil get to the top like in real life?, toxic immoral people flooding the senate and parliaments around the globalized world?... or have things taken a different turn. Are things perhaps more democratic than they appear?







Implying communism ever saw the light and people critizing it are NOT small-*****-jerks trying to keep their fears and unsecurity away just by repeating what 3 half thinking sexual harrased old men said, right?

then, high five bro!


Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.11 15:51:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Reiisha on 11/02/2011 15:55:25
Originally by: Captain Question Time
Communism is an order, that's unnatural and written up and consumed by a glorified fascists, end results are the same as any other dictation... be it from book, philosopher, scholar, nutjob, it's all the same, if some1 believes my way of life is worthy of sending me to jail, when in fact I have done nothing inherintly wrong, then *******s to the people who voted it in!!


If he honestly can't see the ridiculously major hypocricy in his own statement, any further attempt at discussion with him is pretty much pointless if you ask me.



Aside from that, i wonder why no one ever bothered to look at a hybrid - Communistic town communities and an indirect democracy on top, though no individuals are chosen, only groups of representatives of a certain ideal.

This still makes every vote matter, but unifies a democratic system and prevents individuals from being put on a pedestal, at least attempting to make sure politicians actually care about the people that vote them into office.

Asp IV
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.11 15:58:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Originally by: Captain Question Time
it's not a philosophy it's actually genetically us, we're naturally good people


With regard to people, this is the worst presumption you could ever make.


Confirming that humans as a specie have survived through evolution with pro social behavior traits, does not take away that fact that the individuals themselves (or in cadres) can act like sociopaths. Social Darwinism aside (which is in fact misquoted spencerism); we are a social animal that are prone (since these traits survived the selectiveness of evolution) to compassion, empathy, at least compared to other animals who lacks prospective thinking.

Everything that humans do is per definition "natural".


Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:03:00 - [53]
 

Isnt there a difference between tribalism, and communism... I mean they're drastically different. I'd just like to point that out.

But yes sometimes to lead you need to be a ****.

Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:08:00 - [54]
 

What the hell do the commies have to do with how alliance leaders act. This is better answered by analyzing human behavior than tacking on some real life ideology as a way to explain why they are all mostly greedy gits who could care less about their peons. But if you really want to stick a name to it then call it feudalism as that is the real way nullsec is run. Basically its a bunch of nobles and their courts who band together their territories for mutual defence and profit for said nobles and their courts or plot backstabs to make a noble house fall and gain the former lords peons and holdings. Regardless of the current political landscape the peons still get pee'd on. Oh and CCP is the king sitting in his jovian castle with the royal army protecting him. As long as the nobles keep paying the king he lets them do as they will. That pretty much sums up nullsec leadership.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:27:00 - [55]
 

Ugh, real world "communism" isn't communism.

Theoretical communism would occur after a society transitioned from capitalism to socialism to communism. It's supposed to be a utopia.

Imagine what kind of society would develop if we had Star Trek replicatators and unlimited energy. If we no longer needed capitialism to distribute scarce resources, what system would replace it?

However, a lot of "communists" didn't want to wait until a society naturally progressed from capitalism to socialism to communism, so they decided to speed up the process by adding revolution to the plan. Meaning, let's actively encourage the overthrow of existing capitalistic governments to accelerate "progress." (Which is one reason why the US was so freaked out by red infiltrators during McCarthyism.)

In reality, most "communist" states are just centralized economies where a committee decides on production priorities and prices, i.e. state capitalism.


As for null-sec alliances, I think Zhim'Fufu nailed it as being an example of feudalism.


Jno Aubrey
Galactic Patrol
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:44:00 - [56]
 

Communism can't compete with capitalism - there is no incentive to the individual to invent, to strive to improve his lot, to go above and beyond, to stretch his boundaries.

As for 0.0 alliances I second the idea that they are mostly feudal societies. You have your King, your nobility, and your peons. I think it works pretty well as a governing system for EVE.

skye orionis
Posted - 2011.02.11 16:48:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Imagine what kind of society would develop if we had Star Trek replicatators and unlimited energy. If we no longer needed capitialism to distribute scarce resources, what system would replace it?



Federation society in Star Trek is essentially a communist utopia.
Klingon society is a meritocracy.
The Ferengi are capitalists.
Vulcans are a meritocratic theocracy.
Cardassians? They're the evil dictator types, using scarcity to reward and control their citizens.
The Borg, well since you've got a group mind, everyone can vote and be heard instantly, they're a futuristic democracy.

Neamus
Posted - 2011.02.11 17:00:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Pretty kitty
I killed people in the army for money in reality.
I now kill people in eve for free.

Sometimes we are drawn to the things we love no matter what.


So your great love in life is ending other peoples lives? I can understand enjoying playing a game about it, but I'm not sure I could murder someone irl and enjoy it. They would have to have really wound me up before hand.

Were you like that before you joined the army, or did you just develop a taste for it after a few kills?

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.11 17:06:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jno Aubrey
Communism can't compete with capitalism - there is no incentive to the individual to invent, to strive to improve his lot, to go above and beyond, to stretch his boundaries.


Survival was replaced by money as the main driving force behind a lot of people to live. Who's to say that money can't be replaced aswell? I can only speak for myself, but i'm not going to become complacent when i don't have to worry about either money or survival.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.02.11 17:11:00 - [60]
 

Communism has failed and will always fail because it goes against natural laws.
Specifically, it puts the notion of "equality" above that of freedom.
Although perhaps initially good intentioned, with what we have learned about it massive failures no one who has any grasp of modern history should still be in favour of it.

Communism has killed more people than any other ideology, including religion.
It will always fail as it should. It is flawed because we are flawed.

In short, a communists envy doesn't trump a capitalists freedom, nor should it.


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