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blankseplocked Amar pvp battlecruisers got the butt end of the deal...teach me plz...
 
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NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.02.14 18:47:00 - [31]
 

1st I'd like to say that I had issues shield tanking an armor tanked ship...but for the sake of experiance and testing I did it.

Beleive it or not, but chatgris fitting has proven itself golden in a small 3 on 3 battle. I've found that the nano harbs do great in groups. I'm able to choose the range of engagement, and outrun alot of my enemies dps. Basically it lets me be in controll. I'm not happy with the no-cap booster aspect, as cap is life to Amar ships, but I bet i could up my life expectancy with lvl 5 cap skils.

The armor tanked harb w/ the 1600 tungstan plate definatly held itself in a 1 on 1 battle. But seeing as how I wasn't able to run as fast, it did eventualy fall victim to a autocannon fit cane. ( I think the guy i dueled also fit EM and thermal resists...) again this might be fixed with lvl 5 resistances training.
So far, the nano/shield harb has my vote for kewlness. I really enjoy flying the harb its a kewl looking ship, and nothing sounds more awesome then medium 7 lasers unleashing on your enemy (except large lasers Smile )

Once again, thanks for educating me people.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.02.16 15:16:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Er, there is no active tanked harbinger. Plate/eanm/dc/heatsinks is the correct approach. Or shield buffer in certain cases. But both get outclassed by equally fitted hurricanes.


This is (in a limited sense) incorrect. Active tanked Harby's are viable, but as with everything else, what you're fitting and how it's intended to be used, dictates your target choice.

The plate or shield buffer harby is very popular and very useful, but it's not the only choice. The reason the active tank harby is viable is BECAUSE the buffer harby is slightly outclassed by an equally fitted hurricane. In a one on one situation, the active tank harby outclasses the buffer fit hurricane due to living long enough that the moderate dps has time to chew through the buffer.

Really you want to active tank the harby if you're planning on fighting relatively similar class ships 1v1 or 1vs2 because it will still have mediocre (as opposed to horrible) dps and that mediocre dps can get through buffers before the harby dies. The reason everyone talks as if buffer is the only viable option, is because that circumstance is much more rare than it used to be. It's only viable if the battle will take long enough for there to be enough reps that you end up with more HP than you would have with buffer (and if cap isn't an issue). That means the active harby is less useful on average.

Buffer is considered more viable on average for a long roam since it will be more appropriate for a greater target selection... it's a real shame, because it's kind of the opposite to how I think CCP should have designed things.

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2011.02.18 15:47:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping
In a one on one situation, the active tank harby outclasses the buffer fit hurricane due to living long enough that the moderate dps has time to chew through the buffer.


I'm having a hard time imagining this... Is the hurricane shooting emp? Even that way I doubt it will happen, as a matter of a fact I remember a long time ago having a 1vs1 against a dual rep harbinger with buffered hurricane and I melted him in a very short time despite having accidentally loaded emp instead of hail (long time before dominion). Anecdote, but even looking at numbers I have problem understanding how a dual rep BC that isn't a myrm can survive against hurricane even when kiting him at 7-8km with hurricane shooting barrage. Armor hurricane has a huge buffer vs lasers, harbinger can win at close range only thanks to some miracle. ECM drones aside ofc, but this works both ways and armor hurricane has spare mid slot for an eccm.

Other than that I agree with you, it is a bit sad it's mostly all about buffer, especially in sub-bs classes, despite the few exceptions.

CraigGamerPsycho
Posted - 2011.02.21 19:10:00 - [34]
 

I kinda agree with OP. To anyone who disagrees they jus can't face up to the fact they spent so much time and sp in order to fly an arby. I was in same situation before i ttrained all races. Face it, every other BC beats harby hands down. You have Canes with their insane damage output, you have drakes with their godly tank, and myrms able to do tripple rep setups so pretty much unkillable. Compare these against the harb pvpwise and theres no competition. Hence its only decnt for pve even then only in amarr space .... FAIL! rightt there.

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.22 02:45:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CraigGamerPsycho
I kinda agree with OP. To anyone who disagrees they jus can't face up to the fact they spent so much time and sp in order to fly an arby. I was in same situation before i ttrained all races. Face it, every other BC beats harby hands down. You have Canes with their insane damage output, you have drakes with their godly tank, and myrms able to do tripple rep setups so pretty much unkillable. Compare these against the harb pvpwise and theres no competition. Hence its only decnt for pve even then only in amarr space .... FAIL! rightt there.


If you look at the top of this page, you'll see that the OP actually found success with the harbinger.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.22 09:28:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: CraigGamerPsycho
I kinda agree with OP. To anyone who disagrees they jus can't face up to the fact they spent so much time and sp in order to fly an arby. I was in same situation before i ttrained all races. Face it, every other BC beats harby hands down. You have Canes with their insane damage output, you have drakes with their godly tank, and myrms able to do tripple rep setups so pretty much unkillable. Compare these against the harb pvpwise and theres no competition. Hence its only decnt for pve even then only in amarr space .... FAIL! rightt there.


And you will realise in the current state of the game with everyone shield tanking and drakes being so popular that Harbingers actually put out alot of dps and there ability to go from great dps at range to great dps up close instantly is actually a brilliant advantage.

Also nano drakes and nano harbs put out more dps than autocannon canes do at kiting ranges

CraigGamerPsycho
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:19:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf

And you will realise in the current state of the game with everyone shield tanking and drakes being so popular that Harbingers actually put out alot of dps and there ability to go from great dps at range to great dps up close instantly is actually a brilliant advantage.

Also nano drakes and nano harbs put out more dps than autocannon canes do at kiting ranges


Once again, only restricted to EM/Therm. Pvp-wise, it's fail as you can't really do much if someones got decent Em/therm resists. Pve-wise, it's only good for Amarr Space and only if you go against Bloods or Sanshas.

I'm not saying Amarr BC's can't do nothing at all... i'm saying compared to the range of BC's available for other races and what they can do, they will be a better option be it for Pvp or Pve. The only reason why people fly Harbs is because they're new and don't realize that there are better BC's available to them or if they've been flying other ships for so long they just feel like a change of ship.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.02.22 11:29:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: CraigGamerPsycho
Originally by: Korg Leaf

And you will realise in the current state of the game with everyone shield tanking and drakes being so popular that Harbingers actually put out alot of dps and there ability to go from great dps at range to great dps up close instantly is actually a brilliant advantage.

Also nano drakes and nano harbs put out more dps than autocannon canes do at kiting ranges


Once again, only restricted to EM/Therm. Pvp-wise, it's fail as you can't really do much if someones got decent Em/therm resists. Pve-wise, it's only good for Amarr Space and only if you go against Bloods or Sanshas.

I'm not saying Amarr BC's can't do nothing at all... i'm saying compared to the range of BC's available for other races and what they can do, they will be a better option be it for Pvp or Pve. The only reason why people fly Harbs is because they're new and don't realize that there are better BC's available to them or if they've been flying other ships for so long they just feel like a change of ship.


Like I said pretty much everyone and there mother shield tanks now (most on t1 hulls that dont have any resist bonus), hence the em/therm damage type is not as big a problem as people make out.

Holdout
Posted - 2011.02.22 20:57:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Daphne Q
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 12/02/2011 20:41:21
Originally by: Daphne Q
I don't know. Amarr can't be too bad. This morning a friend sent me a link to his very first kill in a Harbinger. So, what did he kill?

Only a Tengu. BattleClinic valued the Tengu at around .9 billion isk. I'm not even sure he has his Harbinger rigged.

So, not bad, eh?


Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant.


Is a kill board anecdotal? I saw it this morning, solo matchup between Harbinger and Tengu. Tengu lost.

I will send a KB link to anyone who sends me an eve mail requesting it.



Yes. A kill board for one fight is most definitely anecdotal. How could it be otherwise?

Karyn S'jet
Posted - 2011.02.22 21:18:00 - [40]
 

or we could have a little over 50mil of our SP's dedicated to Amarr PVP and fly 850 dps harby's with 114k EHP.

Dorn Val
Posted - 2011.02.24 07:21:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Dorn Val on 24/02/2011 07:23:14
As an Amarr pilot threads like these are golden -props to everyone who responded with fittings and strategy. Lots to think about Cool

Edit: FWIW Not everyone cookie cutter fits their Hurricane, and I recently took one down in a passive tanked Harb (the WT was gang fit and out solo).

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2011.02.24 08:01:00 - [42]
 

As a Harby pilot I have found that the lack of damage type choice is a problem once the enemy knows they are going up against Amarr. They will adjust their resists and begin packing neuts in order to custom fit their loadouts against you.

This would not be a problem if the Amarr had a bit more versitility but being locked into the EM/Therm damage type and being Cap reliant is crippling in those conditions.

I don't know if the Harby needs a buff or the Hurricane needs a nerf but right now there are balance issues.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.24 11:39:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
As a Harby pilot I have found that the lack of damage type choice is a problem once the enemy knows they are going up against Amarr. They will adjust their resists and begin packing neuts in order to custom fit their loadouts against you.


You probably should cross-train and mix it up every once in awhile. Dudes thinking they are going up against a Harbinger and fitting just for occasion then suddenly finding themselves facing a Drake will either A) **** off or B) lose.

Quote:
This would not be a problem if the Amarr had a bit more versitility but being locked into the EM/Therm damage type and being Cap reliant is crippling in those conditions.

I don't know if the Harby needs a buff or the Hurricane needs a nerf but right now there are balance issues.


Ugh... assuming no tracking issues, you can get full DPS from a Harb out to (nearly) point range. That is the offset for using cap and being locked into a single damage type.

equincu ocha
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.02.24 13:54:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: equincu ocha on 24/02/2011 13:54:04
Originally by: Belfelmalak
As a Harby pilot I have found that the lack of damage type choice is a problem once the enemy knows they are going up against Amarr. They will adjust their resists and begin packing neuts in order to custom fit their loadouts against you.


How is this a Amarr problem, you can't switch damage types for hybrids either (don't even start with hybrids need fixed), and those that can (and actually do) change damage types usually load ammo for your standard resistance hole (I'm sure you can see where i'm going with this) so you actually have a good idea what damage they will be using. Also if the projectile ship is kiting chances are it's using barrage, funny, barrage can't change damage types either.
And if someone says that they can always change ammo once they know what you are tanked for, people rarely change ammo in a fight, and if they do then that extra 10 seconds with little in the way of incoming dps, should give you a bit of an advantage.

In my experience it's rare to find people that actually refit their resistances for your ship, unless you are talking mutual 1v1's (then just refit for his ship).

My experience is mostly lowsec, with a bit of 0.0, never bothered with highsec, and wardecs, so it may be different there, I don't really care

BlackSparrowHawk
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:40:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Karyn S'jet
or we could have a little over 50mil of our SP's dedicated to Amarr PVP and fly 850 dps harby's with 114k EHP.


Even if that were to happen it still wouldn't be ask broken as Drake. Anyone can say what ever they want, fact is Drake shouldn't be able to tank that much. Most new players i've come across over the years have skilled for it and seen it more or less as 'end game'. If you can fly a drake well, then there's a whole ton of stuff you can do L4's, L5's (if faction fitted), C3 wormholes in Drake fleets, All-in-One exploration ships able to do up 6/10 sites (done very easily).... It may not be able to do them the best (L4's and L5's mainly) but it can still do very comfortably.

Stick a harby in any one of those situations and it will die in every single case!

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.02.25 07:34:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk
Originally by: Karyn S'jet
or we could have a little over 50mil of our SP's dedicated to Amarr PVP and fly 850 dps harby's with 114k EHP.


Even if that were to happen it still wouldn't be ask broken as Drake. Anyone can say what ever they want, fact is Drake shouldn't be able to tank that much. Most new players i've come across over the years have skilled for it and seen it more or less as 'end game'. If you can fly a drake well, then there's a whole ton of stuff you can do L4's, L5's (if faction fitted), C3 wormholes in Drake fleets, All-in-One exploration ships able to do up 6/10 sites (done very easily).... It may not be able to do them the best (L4's and L5's mainly) but it can still do very comfortably.

Stick a harby in any one of those situations and it will die in every single case!


You use faction stuff on your drake? really??!!
The drake obviously doesn't put up enough dps to match what other BCs do. A good fit for tanking LVL4s puts out about 450dps with faction stuff that you could use to buy a navy raven. Nevertheless, well fit drakes still die to myrmidons if you get in range.

I haven't seen or heard of a drake soloing LVL5s.

BlackSparrowHawk
Posted - 2011.02.25 19:29:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 25/02/2011 19:30:08
Originally by: freshspree
Originally by: BlackSparrowHawk
Originally by: Karyn S'jet
or we could have a little over 50mil of our SP's dedicated to Amarr PVP and fly 850 dps harby's with 114k EHP.
Even if that were to happen it still wouldn't be ask broken as Drake. Anyone can say what ever they want, fact is Drake shouldn't be able to tank that much. Most new players i've come across over the years have skilled for it and seen it more or less as 'end game'. If you can fly a drake well, then there's a whole ton of stuff you can do L4's, L5's (if faction fitted), C3 wormholes in Drake fleets, All-in-One exploration ships able to do up 6/10 sites (done very easily).... It may not be able to do them the best (L4's and L5's mainly) but it can still do very comfortably. Stick a harby in any one of those situations and it will die in every single case!
You use faction stuff on your drake? really??!! The drake obviously doesn't put up enough dps to match what other BCs do. A good fit for tanking LVL4s puts out about 450dps with faction stuff that you could use to buy a navy raven. Nevertheless, well fit drakes still die to myrmidons if you get in range. I haven't seen or heard of a drake soloing LVL5s.
I don't. A year ago in my old corp a friend faction fitted his drake to see if he could do a l5. It was slow but he did it with relative ease. Even so, you can do C3 in drake...Harby won't have any chance. It can barely handle L4's while drake strolls through.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.02.27 01:26:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Tom Peeping
In a one on one situation, the active tank harby outclasses the buffer fit hurricane due to living long enough that the moderate dps has time to chew through the buffer.


I'm having a hard time imagining this... Is the hurricane shooting emp? Even that way I doubt it will happen, as a matter of a fact I remember a long time ago having a 1vs1 against a dual rep harbinger with buffered hurricane and I melted him in a very short time despite having accidentally loaded emp instead of hail (long time before dominion). Anecdote, but even looking at numbers I have problem understanding how a dual rep BC that isn't a myrm can survive against hurricane even when kiting him at 7-8km with hurricane shooting barrage. Armor hurricane has a huge buffer vs lasers, harbinger can win at close range only thanks to some miracle. ECM drones aside ofc, but this works both ways and armor hurricane has spare mid slot for an eccm.

Other than that I agree with you, it is a bit sad it's mostly all about buffer, especially in sub-bs classes, despite the few exceptions.


I dunno mate... I can't really remember the specifics of my last cane battle... the last one I had was passive harby vs active harby, and I won that by a mile. The last cane was long enough ago, that I can't recall the specific ammo, or much about his skill set. Those things are so variable, it's quite possible another pilot would have a totally different experience than me.

In general though, I just like active for 1v1, 1v2, or maybe even 1v3. Doesn't usually stay that way though... so buffer often does end up better.


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