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Kepakh
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:38:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Relain Linday
although I don't think you should be able to put your ship into ship maintenance bays when locked either.


Why can you dock/jump while locked and cannot dock at bay?

Or you say that you should not be able to dock/jump when locked either?


Does not make much sense to me...

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:39:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Relain Linday
Yeah as I said, it would probably be better just to implement this into standard aggression mechanics - although I don't think you should be able to put your ship into ship maintenance bays when locked either.


You're in high sec and in a mining OP, but to fend off any can flippers and other a-holes, like me, you brought reinforcements in the form of combat ships in your Orca. So if someone steals your ore you can quickly switch into your vaga/ishtar/whatever and try to pwn them. Sadly, the a-hole knows of this new mechanic and simply targets your ships, so you can't switch.

I don't think what you want is a good plan :)

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:47:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: Relain Linday
Yeah as I said, it would probably be better just to implement this into standard aggression mechanics - although I don't think you should be able to put your ship into ship maintenance bays when locked either.


You're in high sec and in a mining OP, but to fend off any can flippers and other a-holes, like me, you brought reinforcements in the form of combat ships in your Orca. So if someone steals your ore you can quickly switch into your vaga/ishtar/whatever and try to pwn them. Sadly, the a-hole knows of this new mechanic and simply targets your ships, so you can't switch.

I don't think what you want is a good plan :)


I guess that's true - perhaps I just hate the get out safe cards in general :)

But I agree, I'm perhaps to bias and infact the locking thing wouldn't be a good idea - simple aggression mechanics would be much better off.

Clara Espion
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:52:00 - [64]
 

You know that fighting on a wormhole also don't has an aggression timer that prevents you from jumping through? Do you consider that an exploit too? Thats risk free pvp too when on the other side is highsec.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:02:00 - [65]
 

This thread is dedicated to the mechanic in question itself, whereby an aggressed individual can put there ship inside a carrier on a station and get away scot free. It's becoming typical of outlaws now and it's rather pathetic.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:04:00 - [66]
 

When a GM states ’working as intended’ it simply means things are working correctly accordingly to how things were coded (no 3rd party software involved). It does in no way mean that the mentioned usage of a certain feature necessarily were in mind when the code were written or, further back, when it was designed.

The OP is quite correct that the usage of the ability to dock a ship in a carrier in this particular situation very well might not have been on the mind of the designer/implementer of the feature. OP: To get to those people (the developers) you need to ignore the petition system and head straight for the bug reporting system.

Some people have this odd idea that only verified bugs should be reported using that system, but forgetting, that if a bug has already been verified it would not need to be reported.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:11:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Vonlutt
Carrier isn't agressed, it can insta-dock.


Is this part of the issue then?

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:13:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Originally by: Vonlutt
Carrier isn't agressed, it can insta-dock.


Is this part of the issue then?


Well carriers being able to remote rep, has long been debated (as well as the use of neutral logistics) - This isn't what this thread is about, more the ability of an "aggressed" player being able to use a ship maintenance bay as a means of getting around aggression timers so they can't die.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:20:00 - [69]
 

The whole "RR doesn't keep you from docking/jumping" is up for debate really, and this falls into the same category (although it takes it a step further). Thing is that when it comes to mechanics like this there should be no bias or "waah I missed a kill, not faaaiiir!" (not saying this is the case here).

The logical choices are these;

- you can't store a ship in a maint bay within 60 seconds of aggression (just as you can't dock or jump)
- if you RR someone who has this 60 second timer himself you get that same timer so you can't dock or jump yourself



Very clean, very logical and probably the simplest to implement.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:33:00 - [70]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Millie Clode
Amarr
Insert Cool Name Here
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:47:00 - [71]
 

Wait, don't you get a 30s session change when you drop your ship into a carrier's maintenance bay? If so, you still can't dock immediately and you run the risk of getting podded

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 11:53:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Millie Clode
Wait, don't you get a 30s session change when you drop your ship into a carrier's maintenance bay? If so, you still can't dock immediately and you run the risk of getting podded


Yes you get a session change timer, but all you have to do is warp your pod away. There is no danger of bubbles in low sec - and you cannot be smart bombed when your right next to a station.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:01:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.




I appreciate this being moved to the section equivalent of the "Forum Experiments" section of the forums - Will surely improve the quality of discussion.

Sephira Galamore
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:09:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Sephira Galamore on 08/02/2011 12:11:23
My suggestion:
If an agressing pilot tries to scoop his ship into a maintenance bay, the carrier/Orca pilot gets a warning... "Xyz attempts to scoop his ship into your maintnance bay. He has a pending agression timer which will extend to you if you allow him to proceed. Proceed! or Abort!"
So, the carrier pilot either denies him his maintenance bay, which would then work just like with docking/jumping at stations right now (from the agressive pilots point).
Or he allows the agressive pilot to scoop in which extends the agression timer him and prohibits both from docking/jumping.

Muul Udonii
Minmatar
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:15:00 - [75]
 

Hmm interesting topic, I'm actually suprised.

Another quick thought about it tho:

If you eject from one ship and get into another ship; agression transfers with your pod (it's you that got the timer). If you eject from a ship and someone else jumps into it; they do not pick up your agression timer; as they are a different person.

That's another way to save your ship; have a neut in a pod ready to board it.

Would that be an 'exploit' too? As that really is intended game mechanics.

fr0gout
The Scope
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:38:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vonlutt
Carrier isn't agressed, it can insta-dock.


Not if you have a Dreadnought named 'Bumper Cars WEEEEEEE!!!' around.


The Carrier will dock whenever he sees any capitals on the field, let alone enough time for a Dreadnought/Carrier to be able to pick up speed to "siegebump/triagebump" him. There really is no way to counter it, The best I can think of is using a 100mn mwd rapier or something similar to get a bump on him to send it out of Carrier storage range, web and point it, then cyno in a fleet capable enough of dealing enough damage through 3 Capital reps before he can make it back the 10-12km you'd be lucky enough to bump him away from his carrier if he wasn't paying attention.

If the only way the Carrier hugger can lose is by not being attentive then there is something wrong.

Jim Tudeski
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:56:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: fr0gout
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Vonlutt
Carrier isn't agressed, it can insta-dock.


Not if you have a Dreadnought named 'Bumper Cars WEEEEEEE!!!' around.


The Carrier will dock whenever he sees any capitals on the field, let alone enough time for a Dreadnought/Carrier to be able to pick up speed to "siegebump/triagebump" him. There really is no way to counter it, The best I can think of is using a 100mn mwd rapier or something similar to get a bump on him to send it out of Carrier storage range, web and point it, then cyno in a fleet capable enough of dealing enough damage through 3 Capital reps before he can make it back the 10-12km you'd be lucky enough to bump him away from his carrier if he wasn't paying attention.

If the only way the Carrier hugger can lose is by not being attentive then there is something wrong.

Or simply use a Mach? Lol.

Dieko
Posted - 2011.02.08 13:48:00 - [78]
 

Hi guys few words from me i can onley recomend "the stasion camp with carier fast loker and sniper/bufer bs in ship bay" it is a great way to get easy kills while playing eve semi afk "at work or similar" ore when your to tierd/stoned to do enything else.

list of good things stasion camping gives you

1. posibility of good lot from clokey houlers and the like

2. posibility to camp capitals and freighters in stasion "mesing with their logistics"

3. having noobs spend all kinds of time trying to figure oute how to kill you and geting flets together then when totaly overpowerd gtfo!! and have funn with smack in local

4. reading all kinds of tears and frustration on forums

to all of you oute their have funn and dont be stupid :)

fr0gout
The Scope
Posted - 2011.02.08 14:09:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Jim Tudeski


Or simply use a Mach? Lol.


Because he's going to instantly dock the second he sees a Machariel picking up speed to bump him? Which is why a 100mn rapier is more like to surprise him, although it still won't gurantee it if hes quick on the draw and paying attention. Just like how you need to cyno in a fleet because the master of world of warcraft style pvp is going to be very cautious when there are several guys in system or in the constellation with enough dps to kill him through his carrier reps and before he can make it back to the hollowed safety of the station docking perimeter or his carrier ship maintenance storage range.

reddot23
Posted - 2011.02.09 09:42:00 - [80]
 

they should not fix it that is eve in a nut shell one of a mill thing just like that i say game working as it should be pvper are starting to sound like carebears

Maredtext
Posted - 2011.02.09 11:12:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
This is EVE. Risk free PVP can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.


Are you ******ed or did you just not bother to read anything in the entire thread? Risk free pvp is exactly what carrier docking is.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.02.09 13:28:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/02/2011 13:30:29

It isn't an exploit in lowsec with carriers and it isn't an exploit in hisec with non-gcced (but aggressed) war targets. For my money I'm less annoyed with seeing an enemy use an allied spaceship (under his or her control) to dock at than I am seeing a neutral npc controlled station manager allowing redock after aggression in 45 seconds (or neutral logistics getting no aggression timer whatsoever).

Station games themselves are intrinsically wrong and that is the root of all this evil. The aggression mechanics, dock radius, and redock timers need to be altered.

The reasonable counter for a carrier/orca playing friendly ship maintenance array games should be bouncing the stupid thing off the station / and or / making the ship that harbours a war-target/aggressed/gcc vessel itself wartarget/aggressed/gcc for the appropriate time period.

But then CCP would need to ensure that all stations have reasonable finite docking radius (ie its neccessary to bump people a couple of kilometers to put them out) and would need a proper rethink of aggression mechanics for remote-repping and basic aggression to scale timers up to finally reflect hit point buffers.

Basically I have no problem with ships docking out in friend carriers / orcas in combat if the act of saving one ship passes the consequences of aggression onto another (it has after all, given up neutrality by configuring itself to become involved). I like the role that carriers / orcas can have in combat allowing close in ships to refit themselves and change configuration etc but where it becomes irritating is when there is no real counter within the game system but not playing against it at that location.

The fact some stations have tiny dock radius where the smallest bump will put the carrier at hazard while others have giant-ass dock range where you need to bump the thing 40-50 kilometers is a bit rubbish. (because the clever dockgamer will always be fighting in a safe zone) and since the current aggression mechanics are flawed and partial can be very successfully gamed.

But as others in the thread have pointed out - these things are not exploits and shouldn't be raised as such. If anything they are defects and shortcomings in the pvp engine and need to be brought to the developers attention by encourging CSM candidates to fight on these platforms and have lengthy progressive threads on the issue.

I'll say here and now that if we get a candidate in the next elections who promises to make aggression mechanics / transferable aggression on RR and station games (dock timers) a focus of their campaign and pledges to bring it up constantly at ccp meetings till its addressed they'll get one of my votes for sure.

I strongly believe that the fundimental issue is one that can be solved by making characters/ships/techniques that aid pvp combat in some way inherit the combat flagging and become viable targets with associated redock/gate jump penalties. I want people getting involved in pvp to stay involved to the degree that the people firing lasers at each other do.


Genghis Shardani
Posted - 2011.02.09 15:07:00 - [83]
 

The Carrier should get an aggression timer as well.
I think that any interference with a ship that is in a fight should get you in the fight as well.

WitchKingOfAgamar
Posted - 2011.02.09 16:22:00 - [84]
 

Implement regular aggression mechanics. If you want to dock in your carrier or orca, then you have to deaggress just like wanting to dock at a station or jump through a gate.

While we are at it, the same mechanics should apply to acceleration gates, jump brides and jump drives, assuming it doesnt already.

Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.02.09 18:24:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: WitchKingO***amar
Implement regular aggression mechanics. If you want to dock in your carrier or orca, then you have to deaggress just like wanting to dock at a station or jump through a gate.


That doesn't make sense. The carrier is in your gang cooperating with your fleet. Why would it make you wait? Its far more realistic that having involved itself in the ongoing combat the carrier itself is now aggressed and should be denied docking for a period of time (which should obviously be longer than the current pathetic 45secs that was fixed before the general hitpoint buff and invention of carriers).

Quote:
While we are at it, the same mechanics should apply to acceleration gates, jump brides and jump drives, assuming it doesnt already.


Nah thats ridiculous. Carrier can't jump if you have it pointed and if you haven't got it pointed you don't deserve to catch it.


Super Failure
Posted - 2011.02.09 21:07:00 - [86]
 

Aggression should just transfer to the carrier. This way, the carrier can still be used to some advantage (that's what it's for), but it would need more risk.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.09 21:18:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/02/2011 13:30:29

It isn't an exploit in lowsec with carriers and it isn't an exploit in hisec with non-gcced (but aggressed) war targets. For my money I'm less annoyed with seeing an enemy use an allied spaceship (under his or her control) to dock at than I am seeing a neutral npc controlled station manager allowing redock after aggression in 45 seconds (or neutral logistics getting no aggression timer whatsoever).

Station games themselves are intrinsically wrong and that is the root of all this evil. The aggression mechanics, dock radius, and redock timers need to be altered.

The reasonable counter for a carrier/orca playing friendly ship maintenance array games should be bouncing the stupid thing off the station / and or / making the ship that harbours a war-target/aggressed/gcc vessel itself wartarget/aggressed/gcc for the appropriate time period.

But then CCP would need to ensure that all stations have reasonable finite docking radius (ie its neccessary to bump people a couple of kilometers to put them out) and would need a proper rethink of aggression mechanics for remote-repping and basic aggression to scale timers up to finally reflect hit point buffers.

Basically I have no problem with ships docking out in friend carriers / orcas in combat if the act of saving one ship passes the consequences of aggression onto another (it has after all, given up neutrality by configuring itself to become involved). I like the role that carriers / orcas can have in combat allowing close in ships to refit themselves and change configuration etc but where it becomes irritating is when there is no real counter within the game system but not playing against it at that location.

The fact some stations have tiny dock radius where the smallest bump will put the carrier at hazard while others have giant-ass dock range where you need to bump the thing 40-50 kilometers is a bit rubbish. (because the clever dockgamer will always be fighting in a safe zone) and since the current aggression mechanics are flawed and partial can be very successfully gamed.

But as others in the thread have pointed out - these things are not exploits and shouldn't be raised as such. If anything they are defects and shortcomings in the pvp engine and need to be brought to the developers attention by encourging CSM candidates to fight on these platforms and have lengthy progressive threads on the issue.

I'll say here and now that if we get a candidate in the next elections who promises to make aggression mechanics / transferable aggression on RR and station games (dock timers) a focus of their campaign and pledges to bring it up constantly at ccp meetings till its addressed they'll get one of my votes for sure.

I strongly believe that the fundimental issue is one that can be solved by making characters/ships/techniques that aid pvp combat in some way inherit the combat flagging and become viable targets with associated redock/gate jump penalties. I want people getting involved in pvp to stay involved to the degree that the people firing lasers at each other do.




Very nice post, well thought out and constructive - thanks.

I understand your point, I would still however prefer that the person who is aggressed be not allowed to dock there ship at the ship maintenance bay.

Failing that, then the person in the carrier should at least get a pop up / dialog box saying "Person Y is attempting to use your Ship Maintenance bay, however this person is currently aggressed. By loading this person(s) ship into your ship maintenance bay, you will also become aggressed for the duration." (Accept) or (Decline) options.

^ - I don't think person that aggressed should be able to freely make the carrier become aggressed. There should be a prompt message. This will avoid countless mothership/titan/carrier deaths from spys and what not.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.02.09 23:01:00 - [88]
 


Well it is a conscious choice to enable ship maintenance use for gang members. It is something you have to turn on rather than happens automatically. Risk for reward and all that.

terrible alt
Posted - 2011.02.09 23:05:00 - [89]
 

Again someone butthurt by lukka..
and for all of you mad about not being able ot kill the shiny ships, if it wasnt riskless pvp you wouldnt see those shiny ships agressing without logistics+gang waiting near so you're not really missing on any kills..

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.02.10 01:34:00 - [90]
 

This is an obviously bad mechanic and should be changed. OP is going about it wrong though.


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