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Alice Pink
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:19:00 - [31]
 

Let me introduce you to Saint Schala.

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_pilot.php?id=Saint+Schala

TLDR, that's thousands of kills using an Abaddon/Ashimmu that gets scooped to his alt Thanny.

This has been around a LOOOOONG time.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:33:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Sawyer LaFleur
A faulty mechanic isn't an exploit ... at least in this game and I'd prefer it that way than other games using the ban hammer by people unsure of where the lines were in using attributes of their characters and ships to the maximum advantage.

But, I would agree that it is a game mechanic that needs to be fixed. Yeah, others have pointed out how station games are pathetic to begin with but one problem doesn't mean you can't fix another... and the point that someone can dock (into a ship)while they have agression is a step beyond the level of failure of the station games.

Still, it doesn't make it an exploit, just something that should be fixed... no being able to dock in a carrier or orca while agressed seems most consistent with the rest of the game ( gate jumps / stations) .... who knows what convulted coding conflicts might make it hard to impliment, but it seems like its got to be a high enough priority to get someone on it... other wise a pirate orca at every gate might happen sooner than we think


I agree with everything you've said, although I don't believe it could be that hard to implement, but I guess we never know. I just suspect BH's have never looked at the issue and as such Dev's have not looked at solutions.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:36:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Yes, being able to store your ship while agressing is something that makes station hugging carriers and Orcas (in high sec) very, very powerful. I've been using the Orca "trick" myself a lot (the Orca is a very powerful ship for high sec PVP, for many reasons).

It certainly isn't logical but it is how it is and always has been. So it's NOT an exploit but rather a design choice or CCP being lazy idiots who don't play their own game, your choice. To me the OPness of the Orca for PVP is kinda balanced with the OPness for miners (no cans needed) so that somehow soothes my "fair play gland". I'd have no trouble if they removed that option From the Orca as long as they also removed the insanely OP, no cans needed, miner capability.

In your specific situation; you fight on stations, you get station games. If you don't like silly&idiotic station games.... don't fight there.


Sorry, but I cannot agree with you - I can only suspect that someone who uses this tactic would back it up (like yourself)

There is completely risk free PvP, which in turn invalidates the requirements of any other game mechanics which has been implemented to stop similar situations e.g. ; (Aggression Timers)

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:39:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Alice Pink
Let me introduce you to Saint Schala.

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_pilot.php?id=Saint+Schala

TLDR, that's thousands of kills using an Abaddon/Ashimmu that gets scooped to his alt Thanny.

This has been around a LOOOOONG time.


Funnily enough it's an outlaw which I've encountered doing the same thing, he also uses an Abaddon/Ashimmu combo - irrespective of how long it has been around, I believe it really needs to be fixed, the solutions aren't that complex and I can't understand how anyone would think this is a legitimate game mechanic when it promotes risk free PvP and almost invalidates aggression timers.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:41:00 - [35]
 

This is EVE. Risk free PVP can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:43:00 - [36]
 

How am I backing it up? I state what it IS and has been; CCP's design choice. I even state I have no issues with it being removed (with a proviso). And I also stand by my "station games are silly and useless, if you don't like them for whatever reason then don't fight there".

Is it a stupid mechanic? Sure it is, but it's NOT an exploit.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:47:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
How am I backing it up? I state what it IS and has been; CCP's design choice. I even state I have no issues with it being removed (with a proviso). And I also stand by my "station games are silly and useless, if you don't like them for whatever reason then don't fight there".

Is it a stupid mechanic? Sure it is, but it's NOT an exploit.


The problem I had is with you using it yourself (in high sec) and also suggesting that because its stations games it "doesn't matter"

This can be done at gates as well, however this will significantly increase the danger to the carrier pilot.. (not an orca though).

I'm here to dispute the mechanic, even if I think it should be considered an 'exploit' by the fact a GM has stated it is not, we can only consider it 'not to be' until further notice / a resolve is met.

Emma Hewitt
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:47:00 - [38]
 

Am I getting this right?!

You guys are mad at the fact that someone docked a ship inside of a carrier in the middle of a fight?

If so, then what the heck are you complaining about? That IS intended game-mechanics. What is the use of a carrier ship bay if you can't use it when you need to. I think its a great feature and comes in use in certain situations, save your mates from ambushes, save your mates ships if a fight turns ugly ect. Your saying that pilots cannot swap ships in the middle of a fleet fight via carrier? Well that is just silly. I hope i'm understanding this thread correctly lol

Why shouldn't a ship be not allowed to dock in a carrier in the middle of aggression?
Because you didn't get the killmail is not a valid reason.

Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:54:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Emma Hewitt

Why shouldn't a ship be not allowed to dock in a carrier in the middle of aggression?
Because you didn't get the killmail is not a valid reason.

Because ur gay.

Emma Hewitt
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.08 08:58:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Emma Hewitt

Why shouldn't a ship be not allowed to dock in a carrier in the middle of aggression?
Because you didn't get the killmail is not a valid reason.

Because ur gay.


That is not a valid reason either. Try harder.

Cadela Fria
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:03:00 - [41]
 

Not sure why any of you keep mentioning carriers and highsec. Everyone knows (or should know)that capital ships aren't supposed to be in highsec and can't enter highsec, and furthermore that any use of a capital ship in combat, in any sense (repping ships count) in highsec, is cause for its removal into lowsec.
Simple solution.

As for the "exploit" itself, its not a bad idea really..I guess I could say thank you. Will keep it in mind.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:04:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Emma Hewitt
Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Emma Hewitt

Why shouldn't a ship be not allowed to dock in a carrier in the middle of aggression?
Because you didn't get the killmail is not a valid reason.

Because ur gay.


That is not a valid reason either. Try harder.


Because its a way to circumvent the agression countdown timer put in place by CCP to stop this very thing from happening at stations and gates.

Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:12:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Emma Hewitt
Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Emma Hewitt

Why shouldn't a ship be not allowed to dock in a carrier in the middle of aggression?
Because you didn't get the killmail is not a valid reason.

Because ur gay.


That is not a valid reason either. Try harder.


Because its a way to circumvent the agression countdown timer put in place by CCP to stop this very thing from happening at stations and gates.


Nope, because there are no stations or gates being used. You can also still blow up the carrier which will destroy the ship too YARRRR!!

Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:15:00 - [44]
 

Its like being able to dock to a station while actively aggressing (shooting) someone.

Solution would be to start an aggression timer on the carrier when he reps a person aggressing (gray area, applies to whole neutral repping thing) or, when an aggressed person docks his ship on the ship maintenance bay.

Its not an exploit, but a poor mechanic. Now that cat is out of the bag, CCP needs to address this situation quickly, otherwise docking games will upgrade to the next level of boringness.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:20:00 - [45]
 

Quote:
Nope, because there are no stations or gates being used. You can also still blow up the carrier which will destroy the ship too


Once the carrier has scooped the ship it is free to dock up in a station due to having no agression timer. So stations are involved.

This is simply a way of getting around the agression timer to avoid the drawbacks of having an agression timer. As far as I can see its an exploit and needs to be addressed.

Maleek Makaar
New Eden Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:21:00 - [46]
 

Simple. If a ships dock with carrier, make it unable to dock or warp for 5 minutes. Add some fluffy message where Scotty the docking manager tells you you cannot dock while a ship is being latched down in your carrier or something.

That way, it is still possible but puts the Carrier/Orca in a much more risky position.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:23:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Nope, because there are no stations or gates being used. You can also still blow up the carrier which will destroy the ship too YARRRR!!


How do you do that to an un-agressed carrier sitting in docking range of a station?

This is clearly a work around for docking a ship with agression.

Alotta Baggage
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:40:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Nope, because there are no stations or gates being used. You can also still blow up the carrier which will destroy the ship too YARRRR!!


How do you do that to an un-agressed carrier sitting in docking range of a station?

This is clearly a work around for docking a ship with agression.


Yeah, but it's indirect so it doesn't count. Also, don't fight on stations as it's stupid Razz

Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:41:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Because its a way to circumvent the agression countdown timer put in place by CCP to stop this very thing from happening at stations and gates.


Throwing some thoughts around here. But if you're the Air Traffic Controller staring out through the tower on a station and you see laser beams, rocket trails and all manner of electronic chaos erupting around your station; would you let any of those crazy mofos dock? I'd be like: "Dude, docking request DENIED!"

At the same time, if you're fleeted up with someone and you're flying a heavy, ship swallowing whale and they come flying in for cuddles and comfort you'd embrace them and keep them safe and sound, right?

Like I said. Tossing some thoughts. Not really fussed about this as I've not encountered it yet.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Alotta Baggage
Nope, because there are no stations or gates being used. You can also still blow up the carrier which will destroy the ship too YARRRR!!


How do you do that to an un-agressed carrier sitting in docking range of a station?

This is clearly a work around for docking a ship with agression.


Yeah, but it's indirect so it doesn't count. Also, don't fight on stations as it's stupid Razz


So can monkeynuts get his "trick" back so he can vanish from local and blow up all of those russian drones in soviet drone lands?

Thuul'Khalat
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:51:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Ai Shun
Originally by: baltec1
Because its a way to circumvent the agression countdown timer put in place by CCP to stop this very thing from happening at stations and gates.


Throwing some thoughts around here. But if you're the Air Traffic Controller staring out through the tower on a station and you see laser beams, rocket trails and all manner of electronic chaos erupting around your station; would you let any of those crazy mofos dock? I'd be like: "Dude, docking request DENIED!"

At the same time, if you're fleeted up with someone and you're flying a heavy, ship swallowing whale and they come flying in for cuddles and comfort you'd embrace them and keep them safe and sound, right?

Like I said. Tossing some thoughts. Not really fussed about this as I've not encountered it yet.


But could you not by that argument say he probably wouldn't let the Carrier dock either if said person going nuts with lasers outside had just docked in it?

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2011.02.08 09:58:00 - [52]
 

It makes sense that a ship that is in trouble can run back to its 'mothership', in the same way that we recall drones which are damaged. However, the parent ship should inherit all aggression. And any ships which are launched should inherit the parent ship's aggression too. And related gangs, if applicable.

Basically aggression mechanics just need to make logical sense. Which is pretty much never going to happen.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:00:00 - [53]
 

the best way to get somthing like this which isnt currently an exploit, to be made one, is to get everyone doing it.

luckily most people know this can be done and choose not to use it because its extremly lame and nullifies any kills got using it since theres no risk theres no respect - on the verge of greifing since you cant loose.

so if you want this to be made an exploit just start using it and reccomending the 'tactic' to others, as soon as every station in low sec has a stupid idiot doing it it will be banned.

Kepakh
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:06:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Kepakh on 08/02/2011 10:09:15
GM staff is there not to really to 'improve' the game but they are just a customer support. Pointing out flawed game mechanics files under different category.

I would suggest filing a bug report as bugs are processed differently from petitions and BH/QA staff has better understanding of the game mechanics and can, in my experience, push better things to the right places...

Docking aggression timer applied to bays is at place, no discussion.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:08:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Relain Linday
hoping to escalate further


You are doing it wrong. The only way to get anything changed these days is by handing it over to the CSM. Think of it as a special form of lobbying where the lobbyists are selected by an internet spaceship popularity contest.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:19:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cadela Fria
Not sure why any of you keep mentioning carriers and highsec. Everyone knows (or should know)that capital ships aren't supposed to be in highsec and can't enter highsec, and furthermore that any use of a capital ship in combat, in any sense (repping ships count) in highsec, is cause for its removal into lowsec.
Simple solution.

As for the "exploit" itself, its not a bad idea really..I guess I could say thank you. Will keep it in mind.


We were referring to the use of Orca's not carriers in high sec.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:26:00 - [57]
 

As far as most of the responses go so far, it seems most people understand it is fundamentally a method of avoiding / getting around the aggression timer itself, which in my opinion should be considered an exploit (even if it currently isn't).

Those stating that it is a "Nice trick" or "It's perfectly fine game play" - offer another perspective, even though I completely disagree with it, but in an effort to maintain discussion as opposed to derail the thread into a bottomless pit of trolls I guess you are entitled to your opinion.

I proposed a solution in the original post :

* Make it so when you are targeting someone, or being targeted by someone that you cannot transfer your ship to a Ship Maintenance Bay, or Board another ship via the ship maintenance bay - or board a ship that is in space whilst being locked or locking someone.

A flaw with this is the ability to jam anyone locking you and unlock people, so you could just use the ship maintenance bay anyway. (Could argue you could align/warp in this time, but there are cases where a jam cycle wouldn't give enough time).

So perhaps aggression timers have to be applied to this mechanic, exactly like it is with stations/stargates.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:29:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 08/02/2011 10:31:45
Don't think it should be based on "if targeted/targeting" but rather on the standard aggression timer, just like the 60 second dock/jumping one. That makes much more sense and is probably also easier to implement (and thus less for CCP to mess up with).

That way if you can use the Carrier you could also dock. If you're not close enough to dock then the Carrier probably also won't be in docking range, making it a target.

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:33:00 - [59]
 

You can't dock at a station when you're agressed for a good reason. I personally don't see why the maintenance bay of a carrier should allow to circumvent this. It's also funny to see some of the same people who whine about station games all the time now jump to the defense of this shady mechanic but that's to be expected in eve.

Relain Linday
Amarr
Disposable Warriors
STR8NGE BREW
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:34:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 08/02/2011 10:31:45
Don't think it should be based on "if targeted/targeting" but rather on the standard aggression timer, just like the 60 second dock/jumping one. That makes much more sense and is probably also easier to implement (and thus less for CCP to mess up with).

That way if you can use the Carrier you could also dock. If you're not close enough to dock then the Carrier probably also won't be in docking range, making it a target.


Yeah as I said, it would probably be better just to implement this into standard aggression mechanics - although I don't think you should be able to put your ship into ship maintenance bays when locked either.


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