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Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.09 21:15:00 - [31]
 

CSGAMEZCF013
I've set up the fund with 500m, and have a clear strategy on how to invest to ensure relatively straightforward accounting. Lets see how it goes :)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.09 22:44:00 - [32]
 

First of all, thank you Chribba, Grendell and everyone who are joining.

I suggest all those who want to send ISK to them to use that transaction clause / description I posted in the OP.

I also updated the donors list to include Samroski, he will also end up in the VEMEX registered investments under his NEISIN as soon as I have the time.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.10 15:46:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 16/02/2011 10:15:35
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/02/2011 16:03:48
Added new bulky donation from Far Ranger [FARR] corporation: 500M! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

I also added a RECORD tag for the person with the largest donation ever on the official donors list

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.11 11:13:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/02/2011 11:24:59
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/02/2011 11:22:49
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 11/02/2011 11:14:26
I added two FAQs, which I'll reinstate here since it's where most would look at first:

Q: May I send some items instead?
A: In case you want to send to:

- VAERT (me): you may, but I'll liquidate them pursuant to the Articles Of Incorporation and Bylaws. Only cash and PLEXes are allowed to be kept by this VAERT contract.

- Chribba or Grendell: they would only accept PLEXes (and ISK ofc) and only at Jita IV CNAP. DO NOT FORGET TO MARK DONATIONS AS SHOWN IN THE OP or they'll getting money for "no reason" and it'll be possibly lost.


Q: What name will appear as donor? Me, my corp name or what?
A: The donor that will be automatically fetched for publication is exactly the sender / contractor of the stuff.

- To appear as corporation you have to use the Transfer function of the corporation wallet, not to send as corporate member.

- Different arrangements of any kind may be made, but I need to be talked / mailed in advance (on Vaerah Vahrokha) about that.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.12 11:18:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 12/02/2011 11:19:39
I'd like to restate something about the donation.

This character should receive only emails, requests for info etc. NOT the donations.

The donations need to go to:

Vahrokh Financial Technologies


In the "description" field please put

MRVAHFTFF016 P01=0 Charity donation
(if you don't want your name shown)

MRVAHFTFF016 P01=1 Charity donation
(if you want your name shown).


Besides being an additional accounting difficulty, tracking donations to the wrong character may lead to me missing the donation journal entry (some days I have PAGES of transactions) and thus risking not to forward it to the charity corporation.
Furthermore, by not indicating if you wish to stay anonymous or not forced me to evemail every pertinent person and pay nondefault CSPA fees.

Therefore from today onwards, I will automatically NOT post the names of the donors who did not specify their preference (I always privilege "clients" privacy).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.16 10:22:00 - [36]
 

Fixed and added more donations.

Don't be shy, keep sending donations, even small stuff is OK.

Preferred channels are Chribba and Grendell besides me (please check above for the proper way to donate). 3 different Keepers should offer sufficient guarantee that the funds would not all disappear in case of personal issues.

My Postman
Posted - 2011.02.16 12:47:00 - [37]
 

Kudos for putting so much afford in such a (good) thing, VV.

For me personally, VV is as trustworthy as the god of veldspar himself and i will donate, as soon as i come home from work.

Keep up the good work VV.

Lando Antilles
Posted - 2011.02.16 13:41:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
3 different Keepers should offer sufficient guarantee that the funds would not all disappear in case of personal issues.


So, do you mean that all three of you have access to the funds? (e.g. shares in holding corp). Or, are the funds split into 3 individually controlled pots?

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.16 21:53:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Lando Antilles
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
3 different Keepers should offer sufficient guarantee that the funds would not all disappear in case of personal issues.


So, do you mean that all three of you have access to the funds? (e.g. shares in holding corp). Or, are the funds split into 3 individually controlled pots?


No, this operation has been made to look like a sort of "BitTorrent": several separate entities cooperate but stay separate. This reduces the risk of scamming, having an account hacked and lose all or just the risk of have permanent impossibility to play (IE RL death).

All of this super-conservative approach has been planned for an operation that could last years and is made of long term baby steps not of a short bang.

Finally, since Chribba and Grendell are considered trusted / known more than me, I had special care to make sure the deal is sealed in their direction, I.E. Chribba and Grendell are "one way sinks" or "black holes" and I (or anyone else) won't ever be able to grab a single ISK off them. They are only authorized to send the stuff to CCP and only during a RL emergency campaign.

Here's the mail transcript of what I suggested when we drafted the deal:

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

From: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sent: 2011.02.09 17:44
To: Chribba,

Ok, deal.

Important: whatever happens, in any case, off anyone including me (hacking happens even if I am doing nothing to be hit), never release a single pixel of what you get even if it was me in person to beg you for it.
Only CCP may ever get the stuff, even one ISK of it.



Lando Antilles
Posted - 2011.02.18 02:36:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Lando Antilles on 18/02/2011 02:37:51
I still love the idea, but can't support it in current form without that safeguard.
Again, It's not that I don't trust you (or Chribba or Grendel), but what if god-forbid one of you was in the disaster region?

Are the donations in a corp wallet now? If that's the case, It's an easy fix to have 3rd parties hold enough of the corp's shares to take over and donate if the CEO goes MIA.
Would you feel comforatble doing this? Giving out shares in the charity corp with a clearly worded directive to these guardians on how/when to act if you don't?

And I love how the only CCP action on this has been to move your GD thread to sell orders... Crying or Very sad

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.18 10:59:00 - [41]
 

Quote:

I still love the idea, but can't support it in current form without that safeguard



Could you please explain it in a clearer way?

You want each of these people to be able to eventually get money out of a collective fund? It'd be a terrible security breach, given that EvE mechanics are easily circumvented by anyone with half a brain.


Quote:

Again, It's not that I don't trust you (or Chribba or Grendel), but what if god-forbid one of you was in the disaster region?



It's a calculated risk, that is one where you know 100% for sure what you could lose up to.

Imagine we keep 33% each (not counting sister funds for example sake) and one of us is in a disaster region.
In that pessimistic scenario we'd suffer a loss up to 33% and never above that.

Imagine for ANY possible and unforeseeable reason, someone (including account hacking) could fetch and run with the whole fund. Then the loss would be ALWAYS 100%.

If you project the risk over multiple years span, the risk of the latter may only increase. The former is still at 33%.


Quote:

Are the donations in a corp wallet now? If that's the case, It's an easy fix to have 3rd parties hold enough of the corp's shares to take over and donate if the CEO goes MIA.



That'd be another huge security hole. To the cost of looking terminally anal (!), if ANYONE can withdraw off the fund of someone else, then it will be breached sooner or later.
Who guards those guardians?

Lando Antilles
Posted - 2011.02.18 14:49:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Lando Antilles on 18/02/2011 19:51:21
VV, you raise some good points. WALL OF TEXT follows…

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Could you please explain it in a clearer way?



What I propose is that a Charity Corp be created, with a Chribba Alt as CEO. 40% of the Shares would be given to each You and Grendel, with Chribba keeping 20%. One of your (or Grendel’s) alts would be a corp member and junior auditor. This way Chribba wouldn’t have to do all of the administrative work of tracking donations, just turning cash to PLEX. If Chribba did not donate on schedule, then you and Grendel would take over as CEO and donate.

Rest assured, most of my frustration lies at CCP’s feet for not being proactive enough to see a good idea that could give them PR. Come on guys, little help…
But, I do feel that we players can come up with a more sound model. Since you brought up risk chances, I guess we could go all ACTUARIAN on this and break it down… nice grist for the MD mill.

For the current tri-fold setup, the expected ISK loss before donation is:
(% held by VV) *(VV hack chance + VV scam chance + VV dead chance)
+ (% held by Grendel)*(Grendel hack chance + Grendel scam chance + Grendel dead chance)
+ (% held by Chribba)*(Chribba hack chance + Chribba scam chance + Chribba dead chance)

If we put all of the ISK/PLEX into one corp (my proposal), the expected ISK loss changes to:
100% * ( Chribba hack chance + Chribba scam chance +
(VV hack chance + VV scam chance) * Grendel inattentive chance +
(Grendel hack chance + Grendel scam chance) * VV inattentive chance +
Chribba dead chance * VV inattentive chance * Grendel inattentive chance
)

So, to evaluate which model has the lowest expected ISK loss, we need to have some idea of relative size of all these variables. The bolded chances are products of small chances, so they are orders of magnitude smaller than the other variables. This simplifies my model to:
100% * (Chribba hack chance + Chribba scam chance)

Unless you have instituted a rule on equal division of assets, I would imagine that more of the assets would be held by Chribba (due to notoriety), which increases the importance of (Chribba hack chance + Chribba scam chance + Chribba dead chance) in the current model. So, the loss factors relating to Chribba are the most important factors in both models.

However, (as you pointed out) the current model does reduce the total ISK loss due to any one of the 9 potential loss points. But, the question remains, if the 1-pot model has a lower absolute expectation of ISK loss.

Again, all of this rambling is moot if CCP would just give their endorsement/support of your charity.

And don’t you just love how this discussion hinges on the possibility of your untimely demise?

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.18 17:55:00 - [43]
 

An update on my fund CSGAMEZCF013.

I've invested 500m over the last few days. All orders are related to one item, using a separate corp wallet division. I trade in 100s of items, and dedicating one item for this purpose is an interesting exercise.

The initial aim is to keep reinvesting till I can maintain 700m (approx. cost of 2 PLEXes) in the division. Anything above this will be reinvested.

Not sure about the long term goal. If there are no disasters, I can see the fund growing considerably. Would be ideal then to invest in something that could be liquidated easily and quickly. Not sure what though.

Initial investment: 500,000,000
Current ISK: 85,065,510.17 (will get reinvested later today)

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2011.02.18 18:04:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Samroski
An update on my fund CSGAMEZCF013.

I've invested 500m over the last few days. All orders are related to one item, using a separate corp wallet division. I trade in 100s of items, and dedicating one item for this purpose is an interesting exercise.

The initial aim is to keep reinvesting till I can maintain 700m (approx. cost of 2 PLEXes) in the division. Anything above this will be reinvested.

Not sure about the long term goal. If there are no disasters, I can see the fund growing considerably. Would be ideal then to invest in something that could be liquidated easily and quickly. Not sure what though.

Initial investment: 500,000,000
Current ISK: 85,065,510.17 (will get reinvested later today)


If you keep track of your overall profit it might be easier for you to just work out what % the 500mill represents of your total trade balance, and when you profit XXm/billions a month then % of that is from the 500mill, thus you know how much to put in a pile. This removes the risk of having the entire plex for aid balance wiped out by a single market move.

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.18 18:57:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123

If you keep track of your overall profit it might be easier for you to just work out what % the 500mill represents of your total trade balance, and when you profit XXm/billions a month then % of that is from the 500mill, thus you know how much to put in a pile. This removes the risk of having the entire plex for aid balance wiped out by a single market move.

I am not very organized. My total trade activity/balance is spread between 7 accounts and multiple characters. Much easier to track one item :)

The way I trade, and the way I have invested in this item using multiple orders, I am positive that the investment is secure and there is little or no chance of it being wiped out.

Time will tell, though :)

Eva Blonde
Posted - 2011.02.18 19:46:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Eva Blonde on 18/02/2011 19:47:54
I do like this!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.18 21:11:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Lando Antilles

However, (as you pointed out) the current model does reduce the total ISK loss due to any one of the 9 potential loss points. But, the question remains, if the 1-pot model has a lower absolute expectation of ISK loss.



I really see your point but I have two objections:

1) Priority. I am not concerned at maximizing efficiency or that all the money is 100% available thru quasi supposed safe methods.
I am concerned that a good amount of money is absolutely safe. Sure, a 3 contemporary persons total loss would leave only sister funds alive (still an achievement none else has ever managed before). But even in case money was "pooled" a 3 contemporary persons loss would lead to the same result, so it's invariant.

2) Chribba (I did not discuss with Grendell about this) is kindly doing all of this for absolutely free. Putting the burden to setup a corp and have supposedly less trusted people mixing with him is a big no.

Lando Antilles
Posted - 2011.02.18 21:29:00 - [48]
 

I guess the min-maxer in me is just coming out.

Good point on the chribba time commitment thing, it's not really cool to be terribly demanding on someone's charity.

Again, I give you mad props for your initiative here, VV!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.19 21:49:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 19/02/2011 21:49:19
Originally by: Lando Antilles

I guess the min-maxer in me is just coming out



Well, it's understandable and I thank you for caring so much. I am going for the safest (even if not most efficient) way for this though.


Originally by: Samroski

An update on my fund CSGAMEZCF013.

I've invested 500m over the last few days. All orders are related to one item, using a separate corp wallet division. I trade in 100s of items, and dedicating one item for this purpose is an interesting exercise.



I don't know if this is possible to you, but could you please eve mail me at the end of the next week the difference between what appears on

Outstanding donations list

and your current balance? That'll go in the February balance sheet.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.20 22:08:00 - [50]
 

Two little announcements:

1) At least a CCP representative seems to agree with this initiative:

Link

Originally by: CCP Spitfire

Hello Vaerah Vahrokha,

First of all, please let me say that I think this is a worthy initiative. However, our forum rules do not permit multiple threads on the same subject. As you already have one on this topic in the Market Discussions section here, I have to lock this one.

Still, I understand that you would like to raise more attention towards the project. May I suggest using the "Sumbit News Leads" function to inform the Interstellar Correspondents division about it? I think this is the best way to achieve coverage of the initiative while at the same time conforming to the forum rules.

Thank you for your understanding.

Spitfire
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online





2) I won't stop repeating this:

I know you are being VERY kind to send ISK but pretty please indicate it's for the charity fund. Expecially Chribba is having inconvenience at being sent money with no apparent reason. You seriously risk some donations to be lost

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2011.02.20 22:30:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Two little announcements:

1) At least a CCP representative seems to agree with this initiative:

Link

Originally by: CCP Spitfire

Hello Vaerah Vahrokha,

First of all, please let me say that I think this is a worthy initiative. However, our forum rules do not permit multiple threads on the same subject. As you already have one on this topic in the Market Discussions section here, I have to lock this one.

Still, I understand that you would like to raise more attention towards the project. May I suggest using the "Sumbit News Leads" function to inform the Interstellar Correspondents division about it? I think this is the best way to achieve coverage of the initiative while at the same time conforming to the forum rules.

Thank you for your understanding.

Spitfire
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online





2) I won't stop repeating this:

I know you are being VERY kind to send ISK but pretty please indicate it's for the charity fund. Expecially Chribba is having inconvenience at being sent money with no apparent reason. You seriously risk some donations to be lost


Yeah, must be REAL inconvenient being sent my by people for no reason! I wish I had his problems :D hehe ;)

I hope you are submitting something for news as suggested!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.20 22:40:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123

Yeah, must be REAL inconvenient being sent my by people for no reason! I wish I had his problems :D hehe ;)

I hope you are submitting something for news as suggested!


I submitted the news before I posted the thread that CCP Spitfire restored to GD, the ISD don't seem to have noticed though.

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2011.02.20 23:09:00 - [53]
 

I love the idea, but I can't help but say that I have mixed feelings towards this fund. On the one hand, I think it's a great idea to start a charitable organization ingame and that this could really grow into something cool. On the other hand I hope it's really just an extremely evil and devious scam that will steal more money than any other attempt, and cause everyone to question whether we can really exist in the status quo where such evil is permissible, much like World War II.

Either way, good luck. Twisted Evil

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.02.20 23:15:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: oldmanst4r
I love the idea, but I can't help but say that I have mixed feelings towards this fund. On the one hand, I think it's a great idea to start a charitable organization ingame and that this could really grow into something cool. On the other hand I hope it's really just an extremely evil and devious scam that will steal more money than any other attempt, and cause everyone to question whether we can really exist in the status quo where such evil is permissible, much like World War II.

Either way, good luck. Twisted Evil


Well, Sister corps don't scam themselves, Chribba and Grendell seem quite unlikely and so that leaves me, who I don't greatly care to get e-rich Crying or Very sad.

Anyone who has ANY doubt don't give up, send whatever you want to Chribba and Grendell if you don't trust or don't know me.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.06 21:53:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 06/03/2011 22:23:25
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 06/03/2011 21:54:24
The balance sheet for the month of February 2001 of is being prepared.

If there are any Sister Funds that have a balance ready, please evemail it to me by tomorrow 12:00:00pm.

This would also include Chribba, in case he got anything to report.


Edit: if anyone by any chance wants to send a donation pretty, pretty please do it after tomorrow 12:00:00pm.

Arcy Dorei
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:39:00 - [56]
 

Hey VV, I ran my dividend early this month so it'll help your report I guess ;) Payment of 81404620.32 received, total in the pot is now 167773457.32 :)

I'm buying back all my shares and not running the public part of the company now, so clearly dividends aren't going to be the way forward from here, but I'll work out a way to keep topping the pot up with isk .. well, for now I'll at least continue to honour the 10% a month guarantee I set up with my company originally and just add in a bit extra here adn there until I figure out some other way to track a specific amount of isk.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:10:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 07/03/2011 02:15:15
Originally by: Arcy Dorei
Hey VV, I ran my dividend early this month so it'll help your report I guess ;) Payment of 81404620.32 received, total in the pot is now 167773457.32 :)

I'm buying back all my shares and not running the public part of the company now, so clearly dividends aren't going to be the way forward from here, but I'll work out a way to keep topping the pot up with isk .. well, for now I'll at least continue to honour the 10% a month guarantee I set up with my company originally and just add in a bit extra here adn there until I figure out some other way to track a specific amount of isk.


First of all, thank you for your being so fast.
I don't understand your balance though.

What's the grand total current amount of ISK of the charity account as of today? It was like 500M.

For the second part, you may "feed" it with a recurring donation instead of a percentage of dividends. I had to do this myself, because this month I bought a lot of BPOs (basically I made my own internal IPO) so there were no dividends if I did not put out a manually donated sum.

Arcy Dorei
Posted - 2011.03.07 02:35:00 - [58]
 

Ah no I said I just created 500 shares for the fund, I had 2500 shares created not represented by actual isk investment, 2000 for 'management fee' and 500 for the fund. When it comes time for liquidating to donate to a plex for aid thing though I will be piling a chunk more isk into the pot anyway so it will be academic at that point.

Yeah I will just donate some now and then to the fund, when I see profits for my other activities I'll put some in but I will keep a 10% donation going each month regardless, it's not like I'll miss it but it might make a real difference to someone else later.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.07 11:10:00 - [59]
 

Little update:

For the maximum transparency possible I'd like to create a cash flow statement. But there's a catch, I'd need an hand by some RL accountant at it because I have never made one. In particular I don't know how to classify:

- Starting fund cash of 500M put by VAHCO (i.e. not truly "personal" even if in the end it's thy corp I am in).

- An additional 100M of mine as donation. I put it under "Owner's Investment" in the P&L but I am not sure if it's correct or if I should just put it in the "Third party donations" chapter because it's not VAHCO money in the strict sense.

Krythas
Posted - 2011.03.07 15:32:00 - [60]
 

Can we contract plex toward this ?


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