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Grolzuul
Posted - 2011.02.07 02:57:00 - [1]
 

Been lookin' around on EvEmon planning my newest ship, which will, as you 'may' have guessed, a Nightmare.

The purpose of the ship would be to blitz through missions, I'm not one for salvaging so I don't want to waste time, and I won't have a alt to salvage for me either.

So, the question I pose to you is: What is best fit for blitzing? Pulse, or Beam?

So, S&M(pun intended), Beams or Pulses for blitzing?

Paikis
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.02.07 02:58:00 - [2]
 

Tachyons.

Mister Normal
Metanoia.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.07 03:03:00 - [3]
 

Tachs for sure. It has the grid and the cap for them, and the tracking bonus helps too.

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.02.07 04:11:00 - [4]
 

If you know the NPC's will spawn and stick to within 50km T2 pulses are also viable (don't bother with pulses if you can't fit T2), but for general missions tach's yeah.

Grolzuul
Posted - 2011.02.07 04:22:00 - [5]
 

Alright then, tachs it is! Thanks for your input :)

Shereza
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:02:00 - [6]
 

Faction tachyons. Tachyons are cap hogs. Faction tachyons marry the great capacitor consumption with the best non-T2/officer damage. The only reason you shouldn't use faction tachyons is because you can't afford them yet.

Also, the only reason you should use T2 tachyons is because you secretly want to lose your ship by expending so much capacitor on your guns you have absolutely none left to run whatever tank you have.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Shereza

Also, the only reason you should use T2 tachyons is because you secretly want to lose your ship by expending so much capacitor on your guns you have absolutely none left to run whatever tank you have.


Or if you have Large Beam Spec at IV or V and you like doing more damage with cheaper guns.

Fit a cap injector. You can buy A LOT of cap 800s with the ISK you saved from buying T2 guns.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Shereza
Also, the only reason you should use T2 tachyons is because you secretly want to lose your ship by expending so much capacitor on your guns you have absolutely none left to run whatever tank you have.

LaughingLaughing


Shereza
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Or if you have Large Beam Spec at IV or V and you like doing more damage with cheaper guns.


5.8% more.

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Fit a cap injector. You can buy A LOT of cap 800s with the ISK you saved from buying T2 guns.



And you could save up, reprocess, and sell a lot of cap 800s to recoup the cost of faction guns.

Then there's the choices using a cap booster can force you to make. Should you use an AB or an MWD? If you use an MWD do you use a low slot for a PDS, an implant slot for a PG rig (and lose the option of using Omega implants), a rig slot for an ACR, or skip all of those and use a medium electrochem booster and suck up having to reload after each booster usage?

/shrugs. A lot of hassle to deal with for less than 6% more DPS.

Masters Pets
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:35:00 - [10]
 

Why bother with a cap booster? You can easily be cap stable with the booster turned off. And if you fit a X-Type X-Large booster(they are quite cheap) you just need to pulse it once in a while. I see no cap problems.

But what I am wondering about is Conflag on Pulse Lasers. You can hit at much higher range with scorch and only lose around 100dps, but at the same time you do 200 more dps with conflag if stuff gets within 30km. Also you get waaaay more tracking.

Gonna train for a NM soon and I'm torn between pulses and tachs myself

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:50:00 - [11]
 

Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.

If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.


Masters Pets
Posted - 2011.02.07 12:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.

If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.




How about some reasoning? Pulses can give you considerably more dps and tracking.
I can see why tachs can be better, but I see no reason to have a cap booster. You can have sufficient cap without one. With the DPS you dish out you would probably only need to pulse it once in a while.


Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.02.07 13:21:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Masters Pets
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.

If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.




How about some reasoning? Pulses can give you considerably more dps and tracking.
I can see why tachs can be better, but I see no reason to have a cap booster. You can have sufficient cap without one. With the DPS you dish out you would probably only need to pulse it once in a while.




1. Tachyon will out DPS pulse from about ~30km to the end of the Nightmare's locking range. Mission rats are generally found farther out than that. Also, the farther you get away, the less tracking matters. You will kill a majority of the NPCs as they approach you to get into their orbits

2. Cap injecting allows you to fit a cheaper tank, fit a lot more gank modules and allows you to recover very easily from OHSHI I made a mistake moments.

Companion Qube
Minmatar
Electron Conservation Inc
SRS.
Posted - 2011.02.07 13:22:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Masters Pets
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.

If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.




How about some reasoning? Pulses can give you considerably more dps and tracking.
I can see why tachs can be better, but I see no reason to have a cap booster. You can have sufficient cap without one. With the DPS you dish out you would probably only need to pulse it once in a while.



The only time pulse are more effective than tachs are when you're in MF range, so you're looking at 15-20km. Most lv4 missions that you're going to fly in a nightmare have spawns at ranges of 60-120km. Agility in a nightmare also sucks donkey nuts, so even with an MWD (peace out capacitor!) it's still a wait to get into high dps range.

Personally, I'd rather just lock things up as soon as I drop in and start instapopping.

Have you ever actually fitted T2 pulse on a nightmare for missions?

Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.02.07 15:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Or if you have Large Beam Spec at IV or V and you like doing more damage with cheaper guns.


5.8% more.

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Fit a cap injector. You can buy A LOT of cap 800s with the ISK you saved from buying T2 guns.



And you could save up, reprocess, and sell a lot of cap 800s to recoup the cost of faction guns.

Then there's the choices using a cap booster can force you to make. Should you use an AB or an MWD? If you use an MWD do you use a low slot for a PDS, an implant slot for a PG rig (and lose the option of using Omega implants), a rig slot for an ACR, or skip all of those and use a medium electrochem booster and suck up having to reload after each booster usage?

/shrugs. A lot of hassle to deal with for less than 6% more DPS.


never had cap problems using t2 tachs. always enjoy the additional damage. no hassle at all here. and 6% can be as much as 50-60 more dps in case of the nm. thats a number most people invest a lot of money into to achive.

totally off topic: whats with the new chick chars. since when could you inflate those boobs so much?

cheers!

Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.02.07 15:06:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Masters Pets
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.

If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.




How about some reasoning? Pulses can give you considerably more dps and tracking.
I can see why tachs can be better, but I see no reason to have a cap booster. You can have sufficient cap without one. With the DPS you dish out you would probably only need to pulse it once in a while.




1. Tachyon will out DPS pulse from about ~30km to the end of the Nightmare's locking range. Mission rats are generally found farther out than that. Also, the farther you get away, the less tracking matters. You will kill a majority of the NPCs as they approach you to get into their orbits



Tachs out DPS Pulses from +-50km, not 30km, at that range it depends on missions I gues.
Agreed on the cap booster, it saves you slots and cap booster 800's are so dmn cheap.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.07 15:31:00 - [17]
 

Wrong. Tachyons outdamage megapulses from 26k if nightmare is shooting in mf and from 29k if its shooting conflag.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.02.07 15:44:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 07/02/2011 15:51:11
Originally by: Idicious Lightbane
If you know the NPC's will spawn and stick to within 50km T2 pulses are also viable (don't bother with pulses if you can't fit T2), but for general missions tach's yeah.


This is the reason wy I would never hesitate between Beams or Pulses.
Change one HS by an TE if you know you are doing some mission where the mobs stick over 50km but I don't know any lvl4 it does.

Pulse+scorch rocks in tha house

Quote:
Wrong. Tachyons outdamage megapulses from 26k if nightmare is shooting in mf and from 29k if its shooting conflag


I can not say the samething because I've only tested with someone's ship, if I realy liked the Faction Tachions i've had tremendous fun Playing with pulses and the mobs couldn't live enough anyway. But taking your coment in consideration I will soon make tests my self to see if it's realy so different and interesting.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.07 16:06:00 - [19]
 

Most amarr missions have rats over 60k away, some spawn them 80-100k away. For every mission that has rats more than 26k away from you, tachyons are better. End of story. Tachyons also give you td resistance with their 48k fallof and you spend much less isk on crystals.


Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
PURgE Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.07 19:54:00 - [20]
 

Why is this even discussed (again)?

Tachyons, end of discussion!
The dispute regarding T2's or faction is a matter of taste/play-style.
And yes, i have tested a NM with pulse/scorch. Tachyons outperform pulses any day.

I use faction-Tachyons btw (tried T2's, but nah..).

Shereza
Posted - 2011.02.08 04:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tachs are clearly better, cap boosted setup is clearly better, every point of dps its worth it. Every faction/deadspace mod you fit makes you bigger target for suicide gankers.


Firstly you have a point about the risk of suicide gankers. Of course a 10% increase to a .00001% chance to be suicide ganked isn't exactly a major increase in risk so I don't see it as being all that big an issue.

As for the parts about cap boosters and "every point of DPS" why promote using a cap booster when that effectively wastes a mid slot which could be used for a painter (mostly to boost all DPS, not ust gun), webber (only for close-range missions), or tracking computer (general purpose gun boost) to boost your rDPS->eDPS conversion rate.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
If you want cap stable ship, you should look at paladin. Nightmare is blitzing ship.


I'm not sure how you're getting "cap stable" from "use less capacitor" but okay, whatever.

Originally by: Tore Smith
never had cap problems using t2 tachs. always enjoy the additional damage. no hassle at all here. and 6% can be as much as 50-60 more dps in case of the nm. thats a number most people invest a lot of money into to achive.


T2 tachyons use roughly 33% more capacitor/second. In and of itself it's not a big problem, but when you mix it with running an XL booster and an MWD it can become an issue. By the same token if you take them out of the picture from the people who insist on pairing them with cap boosters you can fill that now empty mid slot with something like a tracking computer to enhance your rDPS->eDPS conversion rate.

That's also ignoring that you need about 30 days to go from 3.5% more rDPS to the 5.2% (apparently I messed up on the math somewhere) extra rDPS from T2 tachyons over faction. That's 30 days that all too many players won't bother with thereby leaving 3.5% more rDPS over faction tachyons as a more realistic boost.

It just seems silly to me to keep trying to bump up raw DPS without even considering other factors, or not assigning said factors greater importance once you're down to the 3-5% boost ranges of raw DPS. More rDPS is good, but when you're costing yourself eDPS by not effectively enhancing the conversion rate with non-rDPS modules you're shooting yourself in the foot and all for nothing more than ePeen factor.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.02.08 04:28:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 08/02/2011 04:30:07
Target Painter "grows" your target radius has everyone knows, but if the +radius doesn't makes you win dps directly it does in another way: tracking/signature radius/speed.

So, yes it helps.
But if you don't have already one tracking computer+tracking script then forget the TP, sur sure.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.08 12:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Shereza
...

Suicide ganking is real danger, especially if one is missioning in 0,5-0,6 system /which you should do for better lp payout/, it would be ******ed to make you bigger target for no benefit. Some ppl do that though.

EVERY POINT OF DPS IS WORTH IT. Some say "only 5%" , but for nightmare is more than 50 gun dps. Cap booster allows you to tank even hardest missions with T2 tank, without spending silly isk on shield booster and allows you to agro whole rooms so rats get into mf range faster and you always do full dps. Target painter is useless for nightmare. More tracking computers? Ok, but my nightmare has already 2 + 1 tc, so increase in range is around 1+2km. Tracking is never an issue. Web? I dont know about mission you would want to use web in.

Paladin is easily made capstable with just 2 cr and 2 cccs WITH t2 guns.

Cap isnt problem, because with cap booster you dont have ANY cap issues. Neither you want mwd for 99% of missions, and missions that could use mwd, can be EASILY done on cap/shield buffer, but they are better done with some faster ship. T2 tachyons are well worth it for that 57 more dps.

But you are armor tanking machariel, so i understand its pointless to convince you about anything rational.

Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.02.08 14:04:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Shereza

discussion



thats all fine and dandy. and i wont argue about the whole projected dps thing, but i have a feeling that t2 or faction is rather a question of preferences than actual performance. t2 tachs will always achieve more dps and can manage the same range. granted, you will have to give up on a lot of tank and will have to be able to use a different setup or ship for angel and guristas missions. also:

1. there is no need for a web, ever. tps have too long a cycle time and imo are a wasted slot if you solo pve in a turret ship. tcs all the way.

2. xl booster: heres probably the fundamental difference. i run a small booster on my nightmare. its enough for each and every sansha/blood mission i know of. i simply have no need for more juice, because i already run 4hs 1te and 2tc, which gives me 5min of cap with everything running permanently. thats plenty.

so for the op i would recommend:

t2 tachs, if hes mainly blitzing sansha/blood/merc/oem missions. in this case he can maximize the dps instead of the tank. i might add, a stable cable connection is advantageous.

faction, if pockets take longer against em strong rats and tank is needed.

cheers!

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.08 15:31:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tore Smith
you will have to give up on a lot of tank

No.
I use t2 tachs and still have 464 tank vs sansha with t2 xlsb and t2 hardeners.

Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.02.08 16:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Tore Smith
you will have to give up on a lot of tank

No.
I use t2 tachs and still have 464 tank vs sansha with t2 xlsb and t2 hardeners.


without cap booster, thats at least what i meant.

Shereza
Posted - 2011.02.08 21:46:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Shereza on 09/02/2011 03:30:41
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Suicide ganking is real danger,


A really small danger in my experience.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
it would be ******ed to make you bigger target for no benefit.


That's a key point though, for no benefit.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
EVERY POINT OF DPS IS WORTH IT. Some say "only 5%" , but for nightmare is more than 50 gun dps.


At maximum skills and with 4 T2 heat sinks it's 43 DPS. Regardless, I'll take a 5% increase in the amount of damage that actually gets applied to the target over a 5.7% increase to the amount I'm pushing through.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Cap booster allows you to tank even hardest missions with T2 tank, without spending silly isk on shield booster


And using some faction hardeners, which are quite cheap and low risk, and faction guns will achieve about the same thing.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
and allows you to agro whole rooms so rats get into mf range faster and you always do full dps.


Aggro'ing the whole room also allows smaller ships to get in closer forcing you to relegate your drones to dealing with them which can be, and in my experience all too often is, slower than just taking them out with guns while you wait for the battleships from that pocket to get closer.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
More tracking computers? Ok, but my nightmare has already 2 + 1 tc, so increase in range is around 1+2km.


2km optimal and another 4km falloff. That's just a bit more of a range boost than you're implying, and given that I, and likely most other people, aren't going to try to match crystals for every single rat in a mission the extra falloff's useful.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Tracking is never an issue. Web? I dont know about mission you would want to use web in.


Damsel in Distress, Stop the Thief if you don't move out of the spawn's range, Worlds Collide L4 (Angel/Sansha variant), that Delivery/Pickup one that sends you out after Quafe (though less so here than in the rest), and Angel Extraveganza to name a few. Using tachyons, even with a pair of tracking enhancers, on machariels at 7km is a pain in the ass. /shrugs.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Paladin is easily made capstable with just 2 cr and 2 cccs WITH t2 guns.


And? I still don't understand where this whole cap stable thing comes in. We'll ignore the minor detail that the guns are cap stable without cap modules and that if you're going to require other modules you might as well include the tank you need them to run.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Cap isnt problem, because with cap booster you dont have ANY cap issues.


It's not a problem either if you don't use cap-inefficient modules.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Neither you want mwd for 99% of missions,


You might not want an MWD in 99% of the missions in the game, but I'm glad to have one in at least 50% of the small subset of the total available missions that I get on a regular basis.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
they are better done with some faster ship.


Unless said faster ship has a poor damage selection for said missions or just lower damage at useful ranges period.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
T2 tachyons are well worth it for that 57 more dps.


43.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
But you are armor tanking machariel, so i understand its pointless to convince you about anything rational.


And you're a cookie-cutter FotM pilot so it's pointless to convince you about anything rational as well.

Are we done here? Rolling Eyes

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.02.08 22:24:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Paikis
Tachyons.

Lugalzagezi666
Posted - 2011.02.08 22:55:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Shereza
...


tl/dr :
Cap booster is uselles, because you can fit expensive faction mods to your nightmare, which will make your tank weaker than cap boosted tank. T2 guns are useless, because you dont want to do more damage with pve ship anyway. You also DONT WANT to fit faction heatsinks, because its better to spend isk on faction hardeners.

Originally by: Shereza
Are we done here?

No, not yet.

Originally by: Shereza
this nightmare build I have up does 713 rDPS

Post your fit here please so all people can see you definitive argument.

This is mine :
[Nightmare, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
X-Large Shield Booster II
Photon Scattering Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Auto Targeting System II
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

977dps at 47+48k/464 sansha tank
I NEVER ran out of cap in ANY l4 mission so far.
My fastest blockade time killing all rats was 14 mins, usually its 15-16 mins. What was yours?





Shereza
Posted - 2011.02.09 04:12:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Cap booster is uselles, because you can fit expensive faction mods to your nightmare, which will make your tank weaker than cap boosted tank.


6-20m for DG hardeners is expensive? Laughing

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
T2 guns are useless, because you dont want to do more damage with pve ship anyway.


Anything sub-optimal or not preferred is automatically useless and spending a mid-slot on cap mods is now a fashionable way to boost DPS, applied or otherwise.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
You also DONT WANT to fit faction heatsinks,


You don't want to turn yourself into a suicide gank target...

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
because its better to spend isk on faction hardeners.


Which are significantly more expensive than faction heat sinks.


Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Shereza
this nightmare build I have up does 713 rDPS

Post your fit here please so all people can see you definitive argument.


Nice one there. First you quote from a completely separate thread, then you quote it without any context whatsoever, and finally you only quote a portion of my text in the first place. Laughing

Bravo! YARRRR!!

Well, since you really want to know, here it is.

[Nightmare, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

X-Large Shield Booster II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Multifrequency L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

That's it in its entirety.

Also, in the name of doing things in their entirety, here's the entire conversation piece you snipped only part of.

Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: NoNah
I bet you meant 6.7%. - on DPS bonus from fourth heat sinks in a thread about machariels


No, I'm thinking I meant 5.8%. Actually I should have said 5.9%. Just to toss out a readily available example, this nightmare build I have up does 713 rDPS with 3 T2 heat sinks. With 4 it does 755, a 5.89% increase.


Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
This is mine :


I'd be more interested in what sort of paladin build requires two CCC rigs and two CRIIs in order to be cap-stable and doesn't require a grid implant, rig, or module to fit T2 tank.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
I NEVER ran out of cap in ANY l4 mission so far.


Congratulations. I really mean it. I mean I cap out at least once per heavy mission running period simply because I forget to shut stuff off while working on something else. Multi-tasking does have its drawbacks.

Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
My fastest blockade time killing all rats was 14 mins, usually its 15-16 mins.
What was yours?


Damfiknow. I have enough to do running 1-3 missions at once while looting/salvaging them to bother timing them. Slower, I imagine, than it would if I had a fourth monitor or just blitzed them.


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