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Aleena Vakarian
Posted - 2011.02.05 11:10:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Aleena Vakarian on 05/02/2011 11:13:58

I remember thinking this after seeing the Celestis and Maulus, but wouldn't the use of RSDs go hand in hand with blasters?

There are lots of problems with hybrids, one of which is the extremely short range of blasters compared to Autocannons and Pulse Lasers. The short range of blasters means you will often have your tank broken before you are even in falloff. If you pair blaster boats like the Thorax and Brutix with RSD boats like the Celestis and Keres, you'll be able to cut down the enemy gang's targeting range enough so that you can get into range without being turned into swiss cheese.

Seems like this was what CCP intended from the start, but if I remember correctly RSDs were nerfed into the ground and everyone stopped using them.

TL;DR - RSDs and blasters are both used by Gallente, RSDs reduce enemy targeting range, and blasters have short range. Isn't this the perfect match-up? Why aren't RSDs used more often in tandem with blaster ships?

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.02.05 11:28:00 - [2]
 

In concept yes, and by the same logic they have synergy with rails and drones as well which have relatively long base ranges. Letting you deal damage outside hostile lock range.

The reason the idea itself is not more popular is because on a lone ship you usually don't get enough effect out of it to warrant prioritizing slots for them (over point, web, cap etc). In a gang setting, as with all EW, it requires a high amount of coordination to put in effective use.

I'm definately not saying it can't be done, and i don't subscribe to the common argument that RSD are not powerful enough, i'm merely trying to explain why it isn't very popular. You can use the same arguments for and against ECM, even though ECM is more popular than RSD (while Caldari Recons no longer seem more popular than Gallente Recons).

Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
Posted - 2011.02.05 11:34:00 - [3]
 

The problem with RSD is that to be in blaster range you need 100 RSD to equal 1 ECM mod. Damp use was good for a time, when SB had torp damage cruise missile range.... that time has passed though and CCP haven't upgraded RSD yet. This i all BECAUSE OF FALCON.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:56:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 05/02/2011 13:58:12
You would think so, but it just means your opponent kites and kills you at 16 km instead of 40km.

Sometimes they work for rails though where you can hit the opponent within point range, outside their lock range, and within your railgun range - if you don't run out of cap due to high PG reqs of all three.


Ace Echo
Gallente
The Shadow Raiders
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:05:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Ace Echo on 05/02/2011 19:05:11
Linkage

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.02.05 23:56:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 05/02/2011 23:58:23

Originally by: Noisrevbus
In concept yes, and by the same logic they have synergy with rails and drones as well which have relatively long base ranges. Letting you deal damage outside hostile lock range.

The reason the idea itself is not more popular is because on a lone ship you usually don't get enough effect out of it to warrant prioritizing slots for them (over point, web, cap etc). In a gang setting, as with all EW, it requires a high amount of coordination to put in effective use.

I'm definately not saying it can't be done, and i don't subscribe to the common argument that RSD are not powerful enough, i'm merely trying to explain why it isn't very popular. You can use the same arguments for and against ECM, even though ECM is more popular than RSD (while Caldari Recons no longer seem more popular than Gallente Recons).


If you are skilled well and use proper fits you can get great effect out of sensor damps. A target that can not lock your ship because he is being damped is essentially the same as jamming him with ECM.

Arazu with it's long point and damp bonus paired up with a Rapier and it's webs can be a very nasty set up specially if you add in some dedicated DPS.

To the OP, I likely wouldn't use damps with blasters or for close range work unless the target ship was a BS and was killing him with frigs.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.06 01:07:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 06/02/2011 01:08:30

Damps can be very effective against logistics that are keeping range to the ships they support, e.g. Scimitars at range to a group of Hurricanes.

You dont even need a specialized ship. Lets say you are in a Drake gang, you can put one damp per ship without really compromising your tank much. Put like 3 damps on each Scimitar, and they will have to close in if they want to rep, and most likely miss quite a few cycles before they are able to get into their now reduced range.

It all depends on what the enemy has really and what tactic they use, against guardians that are close to the ships they repair, damps obviously dont do that much.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.02.06 11:01:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Aleena Vakarian

TL;DR - RSDs and blasters are both used by Gallente, RSDs reduce enemy targeting range, and blasters have short range. Isn't this the perfect match-up? Why aren't RSDs used more often in tandem with blaster ships?


Inside your engagement range, the RSD is useless.


Mocam
Posted - 2011.02.06 11:18:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Aleena Vakarian

TL;DR - RSDs and blasters are both used by Gallente, RSDs reduce enemy targeting range, and blasters have short range. Isn't this the perfect match-up? Why aren't RSDs used more often in tandem with blaster ships?


Inside your engagement range, the RSD is useless.




^^

Range damp only works well if you can keep them from locking you inside your range. Many simply use the scan res damp scripts to help ECM ships/drones get the job done if they miss a cycle.

I ran across this some months ago. The other EW's work well but sensor damps... In general, you depend on someone else to get the job done because tackle range is generally well inside damped target range so damps end up fairly worthless.

Lirinas
Posted - 2011.02.07 18:15:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Lirinas on 07/02/2011 18:15:58
Except in a few special situations, you're usually better off fitting some other form of EWar instead of Remote Sensor Dampeners. In close-range combat, RSD's are completely useless - better to use ECM or Tracking Disruptors. RSD's have some use when dealing with long-range Logistics or Snipers, and the Arazu can (or at least used to be able to) RSD targets and remain safely out of range while still Scramming them.

Using RSD's with Blasters, while sounding good on paper doesn't usually work too well, because of the lack of Medium slots on most Gallente ships. With such ships (Demios, Phobos, Megathrond to name a few) there's almost always something better to fit in those limited Medium slots than an RSD.

Millie Clode
Amarr
Insert Cool Name Here
Posted - 2011.02.07 18:34:00 - [11]
 

Agreed with the TDs. If i'm going to lemming right into blaster range of a target, i'd rather mess with their tracking than use a mod that reduces their range. Seems simple really.

Durnin Stormbrow
Posted - 2011.02.07 20:17:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Durnin Stormbrow on 07/02/2011 22:34:58
Prior to the damp nerf, Celestis based ships could be very effective using 2 or 3 damps together with blasters by dancing in and out of the targets reduced lock range, and charging in to deal damage while he tried to reacquire a lock on you through his increased lock time.

Rail/drone boats could use it as well, the ship kiting out of lock range dealing slow but steady rail damage, while the drones danced in and out to stay alive.

Now you can choose to be effective at range damping, resolution damping, or you can fail at both. As I recall, the damp nerf came before ships had rigs, and before the HP buff. Ships that didn't fit a solid tank came apart if you sneezed on them, and having a blaster boat in your face was a scary thing. Since a blaster Celestis would fit the mids with AB/MDW, point, web & 2 damps and lows with 2x Mag stabs & DC or the power hungry MAR, EANM, Mag fit, its only tank was having those damps at full effectiveness for both resolution and range. If you got locked for long, you died.

Edit: More on topic with the OP… It takes 2 damps on target for a bonused ship to be really effective, and 3 to be crippling; unbonused ships have no reason to fit them. If the target has a SeBo, you probably can't eliminate him from close range combat.
In today's environment, what ship would you rather have on your wing against an unknown enemy, a Blackbird or a Celestis? Assuming your small gang has someone available to fly any of the tackle inties, a Dictor or a HIC, would you choose to take a Lachesis as your EW support before taking a Rook, a Curse or a Huginn?

Damps and damp boats aren't bad, but the equivalent ships & EW bonuses from the other races bring more to the table when you're fighting the unknown.

Deerin
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.08 10:48:00 - [13]
 

It does make sense, but not the way you think. It is ecm drones + lock time scripts in your dampeners that will make your enemy curse you in local.

WolfMarrell
Posted - 2011.02.08 14:48:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: WolfMarrell on 08/02/2011 14:50:17
This is definently 1 thing CCP did that i really dont like. Alot of things now you need a highly specialized ship just to make them worth their while, like SeBo and ECM.

But as for the topic, yeah they are pretty useless on most ships, even blaster boats. suuure i can use 2 un buffed sebo's (effectively throwing away my tackle on almost all worth while pvp ships) and take you from 60km targeting, to maybe like 25 (rough guess)... guess what i still cant shoot you with blasters at that range, so why bother...

And you basically cant MWD with blasters since their tracking is terrible. You'd think that the guns that deal with the highest transversal situations would have the best tracking, but thats another topic.

On the flip side, I've been playing with an arazu, and i gata say the thing rocks, face melting even. Its "extended" warp disrupt range is exceedingly beneficial, but it still takes faction mods to make it less then dangerous to fly, though if done right you have a very high control over where people will sit in relation to you. TBH its now my favorite recon because of the skill and judgment it takes to use, even though it has a hard time breaking a tank with rails, they have very little chance to retaliate. IMO its better then the lachesis simply because it can start the fight at its desired range, and can just disappear if things go sideways.

Though even with its RSD buff i wouldnt use blasters on it, as it will take the mediocre 70km targeting range to only 13, still too far. If i wanted blasters, since the arazu can pop up RIGHT in your face, i'd damp resolution and have them take forever to target me, but the dps still mediocre, and i'd use a falcon for a suicidal cloaky blaster fit anyway.... Though i think i'll give this setup a whirl...

Zyress
Posted - 2011.02.08 16:45:00 - [15]
 

Actually I use a couple RSD's on my Stealth Bomber, I'm not trying to get into Point range with it I'm just shooting at range and cloaking and running if they burn towards me. RSD's made good sense for reducing the number of ships with the targeting range to reach me at my optimal. Of course I had vissions of 5 or 6 stealth bombers in a fleet using this tactic and basically wiping about any ships targeting range down to uselessness, but how often do you meet a half dozen guys that want to fit their ships to your idea?


 

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