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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:21:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Omega Sunset on 05/02/2011 01:20:53
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
there are talks that Blizzard might be planning to make WoW free for everyone. Not sure how that might affect MMOs as a whole. Maybe they might get money for putting in in-game adverts?


Maybe after several trillion dollars they just don't care about making money from it anymore?

I'm sure they'll still charge for 'titan', whatever the hell that turns out to be.
It was a hoax. I looked into that I think last month, a Bliz dev said not going to happen. Hoax most likely perpetrated by some game-news site, they make a lot of money by f2p games looking to advertise like crazy just to bring in enough players to get the 3% that do spend money on micro-transactions. I'm sure such game news sites would love to see all subscription games go f2p so to get all the ad spots.

Originally by: Invictra Atreides
But would srsly damage the sandbox gameplay of EVE.

Same as happened with UO and SWG imo. All it did was separate the players into new areas, leaving the original areas more so abandoned. What was once a coherent sandbox world/system, becomes theme areas and content that is restricted to those areas for the most part. Old areas die, new areas die as newer areas are deployed. Next thing you know, you are just playing another wow clone heh.

Companion Qube
Minmatar
Electron Conservation Inc
SRS.
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:23:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall
Hey all,

As been mentioned in a lot of threads over the past few months, our expansions "at no additional costs" can't always compare positively with expansions in other games. I agree with those with this opinion (perhaps you don't), I'd rather had PI with all the options and tweaking ready and FW fix 7 months ago and Incarna with tattoos and more hairstyles with WiS and bars now.

Of course, all things come at a price. My question thus is: would you want to pay an additional $50 a year for expansions ($25 each) if content and bugfixing would be done faster, more extensive, more balanced and polished, more "excellent" as they are now?

Thanks for reading.


GET OUT

hired goon
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:34:00 - [63]
 

OPs post assumes there is/will be a direct correlation between money received by CCP and money invested back into the game, and in a way that sees proportional results.

If it was a direct correlation (which is unrealistic) then I would be happy to pay a small amount for each expansion. In fact, I would be happy to pay a small amount if it wasn't a direct correlation, but perhaps 70%, with 20% going into CCP in general for other projects/marketing and 10% unrecoverable 'waste' (or staff bonuses, or something that is not received back by the players)

However, my mind at the moment struggles to comprehend how paid monthly subscriptions from 750,000(?) people is not enough to ensure excellence in Eve development.

Also, your question ignores the fact of publicity and reputation; Eve gets huge bragging rights when compared to WoW in any nerd-war or online review comparison between the two where you can say "all Eve's expansions are free"

It also ignores the number of players who would ragequit if such a change was brought in, and whether the new payment scheme would make up for that.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:38:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Corozan Aspinall

The reason the content is lite from CCP is because they are not investing the man hours or the key talent required to make 'awesome' expansions for Eve. Pure and simple.



I can't work out if CCP has dropped Eve for other ventures or not.

Either the other things are all for the benefit of eve, and the game just has to suffer for 2-3 years to get there.
Maybe it's all a load of crap and they're just moving onto other products that don't have such a heavy, hard to please, customer base.

I likegirls
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:50:00 - [65]
 

I would pay to not have expansions, and instead just improve what we have now.

Teranul
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:58:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Teranul on 05/02/2011 01:59:06
Originally by: stoicfaux

Anyhoo, if you want to play up Eve's features I would recommend focusing on the PvP oriented nature of the game, the player driven economy (market, mining, industry,) and the overall sandbox nature of the game.

MWD in Missions isn't a selling point I would use when trying to convince friends to play.


Something you've obviously missed in your really quite terrible reply is the fact that ALL of it is sandbox content, whereas everything you mention of WoW is theme park BS that will inevitably lose its luster because it is unsustainable (you only ever make progress; there are no setbacks or big losses). Battlegrounds are completely inconsequential PvP, zones and quests can only be experienced one way and then it's all over, and so on and so forth.

All of the expansion content in EVE is relevant no matter what level of player you are, whereas WoW's expansion content literally obsoletes previous expansion content. You can try comparing them point-by-point but that would be missing the point entirely, which you clearly have.

Oh, and way to completely ignore the fact that Incarna is, in fact, coming. Rolling Eyes

Zulf BesGUowy
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:00:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Zulf BesGUowy on 05/02/2011 02:03:16
Folks EVE is a sandbox, is one wirtual world where all expansion should be for free, add optional expansion for extra money per month probably give negative impact on whole eve project! this is not damn WOW where for extra money you can enter aditionals areas or you can kill other npc like unique troll and goblin rase, or you can get ultra super mega hiper sword form raid boss...

Can you imagine, CCP add expansion with extra jove space for 50 per month...well maby nice idea but i thik this kill EVE.

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:03:00 - [68]
 

No thanks. Leave it as it is.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:19:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 05/02/2011 13:23:27
Originally by: Omega Sunset
Also bandwidth cost becomes increasingly affordable, or at least that has been the trend over the years. Of course bandwidth usage and server demand will probably go up once the new features are implemented with characters being able to walk around - as currently the click-to-move system alone is highly efficient while character walking will be more demanding if done in the traditional wasd mode.

But as it stands, there should be some notable offset with operations against development. Of course at some point, subs will go up, even if just to meet inflationary standards when viable to do so.




Originally by: Ai Shun
As assets are paid off and the initial development costs recovered; more and more of the monthly fee becomes profit. By the same token you have more and more players entering the game which also boosts the revenue. I don't think money is that serious an issue. But then, I've not looked at their financial statements so I may be very wrong on that count.

If you want to pay them more though nothing is stopping you :)


On the contrary to you both, I believe the cost of maintenance has actually gone up. You said the bandwidth is getting cheaper or affordable, on the contrary, I see everyone's phone and broadband bills go up. Plus, the price of insurance, if applicable, for insuring their servers may have gone up too. Therefore, cost do increase but subscription fee is still the same. The offset to keeping the fee the same is that I believe the playerbase has grown larger.

Also, CCP provides better customer care now - GM care, forum care, infrastructure care, and game enhancements to name a few, therefore, operating costs do go up. Plus you do need to pay staff above inflation pay every year plus bonus so again, your cost do go up.

I am not saying CCP is not making money. I am saying that to improve the game, they need to grow more. E.g. they grow 20%, Eve grows 5%. They grow more, we grow more. That is the bottom line.

Based on their fiscal figures for FY2008, their annual revenue is about 46M dollars and net income is about 5M dollars. Their YoY projection for FY2010 should be about 65M to 70M dollars and net income between 7M to 9M dollars. Bear in mind, that is in dollars and after constant currency conversion, those figures may be less.

That's why I think if we all pay a fair fee between 20.00 to 25.00, it might actually help the game and less of us would complain much because of improvements in the game when CCP can actually leverage more staff into Eve. The rocket increase in fees mean we may get a rocket performance gaming experience. Otherwise, it will be an organic growth in gaming experience for all of us.

I think we all will benefit from it. As they say, a bit of inflation does mean a better cost of living for us. Translate that into Eve, a bit of increase in subscription fees might mean a better gaming experience for us.

What do you all think?

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:22:00 - [70]
 

tl;dr needed, however .. what does CCP do about customers that are currently subscribers but don't want the expansion, in a 'single shard' Universe?

Oh, they cut their own throats, Obvious!

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:24:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Spurty
tl;dr needed, however .. what does CCP do about customers that are currently subscribers but don't want the expansion, in a 'single shard' Universe?

Oh, they cut their own throats, Obvious!



I believe nobody is talking about sharding here because they all come to reason that it is not possible somewhere in this thread.

Better read the thread than TL;DR if you want to know more.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:29:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Spurty
tl;dr needed, however .. what does CCP do about customers that are currently subscribers but don't want the expansion, in a 'single shard' Universe?

Oh, they cut their own throats, Obvious!



I believe nobody is talking about sharding here because they all come to reason that it is not possible somewhere in this thread.

Better read the thread than TL;DR if you want to know more.


I'll assume you can't read.

I'll type slower for you:

- if you make expansions that are not optional, you lose customers as you can't shard.

Now, this is why you don't pay for expansions, its part of your subscription. The tl;dr is needed for *why* anyone wants them to *shard* to enable such a scheme.

Waiting .. <taps fingers>

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:38:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Spurty
tl;dr needed, however .. what does CCP do about customers that are currently subscribers but don't want the expansion, in a 'single shard' Universe?

Oh, they cut their own throats, Obvious!



I believe nobody is talking about sharding here because they all come to reason that it is not possible somewhere in this thread.

Better read the thread than TL;DR if you want to know more.


I'll assume you can't read.

I'll type slower for you:

- if you make expansions that are not optional, you lose customers as you can't shard.

Now, this is why you don't pay for expansions, its part of your subscription. The tl;dr is needed for *why* anyone wants them to *shard* to enable such a scheme.

Waiting .. <taps fingers>



Well, you answered your own question there but using words that I am not familiar with Oh, they cut their own throats, Obvious!, which you have clarified in your later post that if you make expansions that are not optional, you lose customers as you can't shard.

You should have just said that initially. My apologies for not being able to interpret street language.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.05 13:53:00 - [74]
 

Does OP want to borrow my name

Honestly does she/he/it not understand CCP´s game and business model, they already are becoming prey to Americanisation and the short term thinking of MBA´s.





Archbeholder
Posted - 2011.02.05 14:25:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
Does OP want to borrow my name

Honestly does she/he/it not understand CCP´s game and business model, they already are becoming prey to Americanisation and the short term thinking of MBA´s.







Oh noes, the AMERICANISATION!!!
Grab your pitchforks and defend eve!!!
Very Happy

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.05 14:43:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Archbeholder
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo
Does OP want to borrow my name

Honestly does she/he/it not understand CCP´s game and business model, they already are becoming prey to Americanisation and the short term thinking of MBA´s.







Oh noes, the AMERICANISATION!!!
Grab your pitchforks and defend eve!!!
Very Happy


too late for that, look what it already has done to Iceland

Shocked

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:00:00 - [77]
 

Americanism is not a bad thing. You can literally bankrupt someone. Buy them out and slowly inflate them away out of reach. Rinse and repeat.

So much money you can make from this. Most critiques are just envious because they can't do the same. In reality you are either in the money or out of money. From experience it is better to be in the money.

Definitely CCP can do more for us when they are seriously deep in the money.

zean xulunta
Minmatar
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:11:00 - [78]
 

i wouldnt pay for expansions...

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:15:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: zean xulunta
i wouldnt pay for expansions...


But would you pay for a bit more subscription fee and still get free expansion?

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:15:00 - [80]
 

Unlike WoW where you have shell out $40 for an expansion so you can do something new with your lvl 80 Troll ******,
You can make your own 'fun' in Eve.

And please dont compare Wow battlegrounds with Eve pvp, Battlegrounds is more like TF2 or Call of Duty, except not as fun.

And some expansions can destroy a game, just ask SOE they are experts are ruining games with expansions..


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.05 19:34:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: zean xulunta
i wouldnt pay for expansions...


But would you pay for a bit more subscription fee and still get free expansion?

We already pay a bit more since eve is a 'premium' MMO. Making it even higher, so it will be substantially more expensive than other mmos, is corporate suicide.

Anyway no, I wouldnt want to pay more so they can waste more money on dust.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.05 21:30:00 - [82]
 

Rather than charging for expansions why not make each part of the sci-fi simulator pay for itself? Like you could have the spaceshipy bit paid for by monthly subscription then people who want to use incarna more could pay with microtransactions for vanity items.

Oooh, here's an idea. Maybe they could pay for the FPS bit by doing a deal with a major console manufacturer like microsoft and develop it in China so they can still afford to put money in to internet spaceships?

Crazy thinking I know but it might just work.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.02.05 22:04:00 - [83]
 

lol ok

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2011.02.05 22:21:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Dr BattleSmith

I can't work out if CCP has dropped Eve for other ventures or not.

Either the other things are all for the benefit of eve, and the game just has to suffer for 2-3 years to get there.
Maybe it's all a load of crap and they're just moving onto other products that don't have such a heavy, hard to please, customer base.


Ok, I've seen you post this sort of thing a couple of times so here goes the eve is dying rant.

CCP has not dropped eve for other ventures. One of the big problems with eve is that it's built on decade old code, this means that to move forward they need to go through what they're referring to as coreification.

This essentially means some poor sod has to go through all the code, split it up, work out what's plugged in to what and label it all properly. It's a hell of a job but essential if we want to see big improvements in the spaceship side of things and eve as a whole become a sci-fi simulator.

CCP Zulu basically said it would take 18 months for them to get their stuff together and would be applying large amounts of polish to eve so that new customers who come in through incarna and dust will be more likely to stay. People got quite annoyed at this and the 18 months meme was born.

What that says to me is that New Eden is central to CCP's business plan, it's what makes dust unique compared to other FPS games and what makes incarna possible. WoD is the only stand alone product and even then will undoubtedly share a lot of code with eve, essentially meaning that if WoD is successful it will be subsidising incarna.

Add to this CCP's impressive reaction since the 18 months furore, loads of fixes added to incursion, vast slew of dev blogs, staged expansion release to better accommodate this stuff, the CSM 'low hanging fruit' thing and more. Those are not the actions of a company who've given up on their product.

Like many other players I get annoyed at the shoddy UI, abandoned features, poor sov mechanics, etc but this is not something you simply throw money at to get results. It's driven as much by the age of the game, number of people who know the code and many other factors.

So yeah, I'll moan with the rest of them but at the end of the day CCP can have their 18 months, god knows they need it just to get to the base of the mountain of broken stuff let alone climb it.

[/fanboi rant]

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.05 23:13:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Americanism is not a bad thing. You can literally bankrupt someone. Buy them out and slowly inflate them away out of reach. Rinse and repeat.

So much money you can make from this. Most critiques are just envious because they can't do the same. In reality you are either in the money or out of money. From experience it is better to be in the money.

Definitely CCP can do more for us when they are seriously deep in the money.


umm, are you confusing good corporate governance (generating sufficient income (and directors drawings) by providing a valued product in a sustainable and long term viable way) with americanisation which in every aspect usually ends up with a few rich dudes and everybody else serious screwed in so many ways as it goes **** up?

Now in game Americanisation is the norm and that´s where it should stay, in fantansyland

OP´s point was would giving them more cash get us a better product and frankly the answer is NO...



R'dier
Erasers inc.
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.02.05 23:15:00 - [86]
 

No

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.02.05 23:20:00 - [87]
 

I would gladly pay for each expansion if server usage was free.

Otherwise... no, I'd just stop playing.

Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.05 23:31:00 - [88]
 

Yes.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.06 00:15:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 06/02/2011 00:16:55

Brainless bimbo.

But if you have everyone being the same then wouldn't that literally make us Socialist or more extreme to that is Communist? To be honest, socialism can be a bad thing too. You get some prefer not to do anything causing hardship for others by helping those who do not want to help themselves.

With a good capitalism like in Eve if you do not wish to help yourself or adapt then you will become victims of evolution. There is a choice. It is either you move on or others move on without you.

In a way it is like saying let nature takes its course. Harsh but I think you Eve players should understand it best.

Live die.
Rich poor.
Success failure.





Ai Shun
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.06 00:19:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
On the contrary to you both, I believe the cost of maintenance has actually gone up. You said the bandwidth is getting cheaper or affordable, on the contrary, I see everyone's phone and broadband bills go up. Plus, the price of insurance, if applicable, for insuring their servers may have gone up too. Therefore, cost do increase but subscription fee is still the same. The offset to keeping the fee the same is that I believe the playerbase has grown larger.


My argument was not for bandwidth costs, but was for the fixed outlays that needed to be made to deliver the game to a paying audience. These are the upfront development costs and the setup costs related to the server farms. Yes, operating expenses will go up. But so will income from an increasing population. In the meantime, the fixed outlays before the game was available is recovered and that loss has grown into pure profit.

Like I said though - if you want to pay them more, you are welcome. I won't. Not because it is too expensive, after all, MMO subscriptions are cheap as chips. But there is an acceptable cost in the industry on what a monthly subscription should cost and that price point is around $14. Less even if you pay for larger chunks of time.

What do you think will happen to the player base if you suddenly tell them their costs are going to increase per month by 75%? And what will that do to your average, theme-park player who looks at a new MMO, sees a whole raft of them out there and sees this EVE Online sandbox game is almost $10 per month more expensive than all the others.

No thank you. Dumb, dumb, dumb idea.


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