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blankseplocked Eve general market discussion - buying and selling
 
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:27:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 21:28:34
Hi.

I am a bit confused about the market. I know you can buy items and sell items in the market. I know to use the market, we must buy items then sell items, or sell items that we have in the market to make money.

However, I cannot understand why there is no mechanism to sell items that we don't have yet then buy back them back as a form of trading? I can see skills like broker relations in game and I know someone must have planned to have a market based system in the game.

So, why not add short selling for us players and make a real market based system in Eve? Is it a missing feature or something that is being planned but not done yet? I am asking this is because everyone says Eve has a strong market place in game.

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:30:00 - [2]
 

Pathetic Rolling Eyes

Jason McCoy
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:40:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 21:28:34
Hi.

I am a bit confused about the market. I know you can buy items and sell items in the market. I know to use the market, we must buy items then sell items, or sell items that we have in the market to make money.

However, I cannot understand why there is no mechanism to sell items that we don't have yet then buy back them back as a form of trading? I can see skills like broker relations in game and I know someone must have planned to have a market based system in the game.

So, why not add short selling for us players and make a real market based system in Eve? Is it a missing feature or something that is being planned but not done yet? I am asking this is because everyone says Eve has a strong market place in game.
What? can someone translate this?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:45:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Jason McCoy
What? can someone translate this?
Jenny wants to lose all her money by selling short something that suddenly becomes in high demand… Razz

LaneHacker
Band of Freelancers
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:46:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 21:28:34
Hi.

I am a bit confused about the market. I know you can buy items and sell items in the market. I know to use the market, we must buy items then sell items, or sell items that we have in the market to make money.

However, I cannot understand why there is no mechanism to sell items that we don't have yet then buy back them back as a form of trading? I can see skills like broker relations in game and I know someone must have planned to have a market based system in the game.

So, why not add short selling for us players and make a real market based system in Eve? Is it a missing feature or something that is being planned but not done yet? I am asking this is because everyone says Eve has a strong market place in game.


Sweet baby Jesus!! Shocked Please shut the **** up already!!

More of your attention whoring topics! What's wrong with you? Were you not hugged as a child?


OverLord Minion
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:48:00 - [6]
 

I'm struggling to understand your idea. Selling items that you don't have yet?

I believe that what you want is to set up a buy order for ITEM_A for x ISK. Then, as you buy an that ITEM_A the server would automatically create a sell order for that ITEM_A for x+1 ISK.
1st - This would be an extra load on the servers.
2nd - This is an automation of a process that you should do by yourself. If not, trade would be too easy (it's easy enough as it is).

There is several people making money from the market (this is called trade Razz). There are several ways to do it. The simplest would be setting a buy order and them (after the item has been bought) setting a sell order. Several other strategies can be used, that might include: buying from sell or buy orders; selling to sell or buy orders; moving assets; building news items from the items bought.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:51:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 02/02/2011 21:52:27
Originally by: OverLord Minion
I'm struggling to understand your idea. Selling items that you don't have yet?
Did you ever see Trading Places? That's what (s)he wants. Well, except for the ape surprise-sex, I suppose…

Also, wiki to the rescue. It's basically a form of speculation where you earn money on decreasing prices — you buy low, sell high, but not in that order.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:52:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 21:52:46
Originally by: Tippia
Jenny wants to lose all her money by selling short something that suddenly becomes in high demand… Razz


That is not necessary the case ... you can always hedge. It is quite fun to PVP. I do it all the time and I am wondering whether that fun can be translated in game. It would be quite nice to have a vibrant and very active marketplace in Eve.


Originally by: LaneHacker

Sweet baby Jesus!! Shocked Please shut the **** up already!!

More of your attention whoring topics! What's wrong with you? Were you not hugged as a child?




Hi LaneHacker, we are civilised people and I am sure you can discuss nicely. A lolly can also be provided if it makes the discussion sweeter. It is not a whoring topic but something that I find lacking in the marketplace. Not sure it is intentional or not.

It is something I have been thinking about after finishing work.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:55:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 21:56:38
Originally by: Tippia
Also, wiki to the rescue. It's basically a form of speculation where you earn money on decreasing prices — you buy low, sell high, but not in that order.


Actually, it is about sell high, buy low. It is market PVP, which I cannot find in this game, yet ... And it is not speculation. It is risk management or hedging. Currently, all trades in game are all secured or long trades. There is no way to hedge.

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:56:00 - [10]
 

I also want the major factions to issue bonds. Or stocks. Or Reverse Convertible Notes.
Why can't we safely invest our ISKies in EVE and save up for a good pension?

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:58:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 22:05:06
Originally by: Cathy Drall
I also want the major factions to issue bonds. Or stocks. Or Reverse Convertible Notes.
Why can't we safely invest our ISKies in EVE and save up for a good pension?


Hang on, I thought there is already an exchange in game or it is a feature waiting to be implemented? I can see shares in corps in game already ...

I believe if you want bonds, you can always get from players. I can sell you some bonds if you want to Smile I do step up step down bonds if you wish.

Cathy Drall
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.02.02 22:00:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Cathy Drall
I also want the major factions to issue bonds. Or stocks. Or Reverse Convertible Notes.
Why can't we safely invest our ISKies in EVE and save up for a good pension?


Hang on, I thought there is already an exchange in game or it is a feature waiting to be implemented? I can see shares in corps in game already ...

Yes you can be shareholder in a corp but how safe is that? The CEO just has to disband the corp and it's worthless. That's why I said major factions.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 22:02:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 22:02:25
Originally by: Cathy Drall
Yes you can be shareholder in a corp but how safe is that? The CEO just has to disband the corp and it's worthless. That's why I said major factions.


I see. That means corp shares is a different issue. I believe I was talking about the anonymous exchange - the Eve marketplace that is CCP regulated. Nobody can cheat ...

It will be quite nice to have a marketplace PVP. Anyway, I have to go now. Need to go back home and eat. Later.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 23:49:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Cathy Drall
Yes you can be shareholder in a corp but how safe is that? The CEO just has to disband the corp and it's worthless. That's why I said major factions.


Hi. I am back Smile

Also if major factions issued bonds, there is nothing they can do with the money. It is not like they need the money to replace ships lost in e.g. Incursion.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.02.02 23:51:00 - [15]
 

TL;DR

Wouldn't a thread titled "market discussion" go into the forums titled "market discussion"?

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.02 23:54:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 02/02/2011 23:54:54
mkmin, it is not a market discussion but more about Eve general discussion - brainstorm. Still, it can be placed into either to be honest.

WarlockX
Amarr
Free Trade Corp
Posted - 2011.02.03 01:05:00 - [17]
 

She want's to be able to sell items she doesn't have.

And then buy them after the fact.

It's not a bad idea but it would have to be done in such a way that you cannot access the money from the sale until you actually get the item. So as to prevent ppl from selling things they don't have on an alt then transferring the money and deleting the alt.

Fozzy Dorsai
Posted - 2011.02.03 01:13:00 - [18]
 

In stocks short selling is a technique where you borrow shares from someone who might, for example, own Apple Computer. You do this hoping that Apple will go down. You then buy the shares at the now lower price and return them to the person you borrowed them from. (You'll need to pay them interest for this priviledge.)
The problem with short selling in Eve is that there is no good, fluid way to borrow items from someone so that you can sell them. Most folks would be a bit leary (which is a gross understatement) to loan you anything.
Another possibility might be to sell a Put Option on an item, which would allow you to force someone else to buy it at a set price...again, you hope that the item goes down, you buy it cheap, and sell it dear.
Alas, in the real world there are market mechanisms for this; Eve is not that evolved.
Of course you can do any of this as a private side deal...but who to trust?

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.03 01:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
So, why not add short selling for us players and make a real market based system in Eve?


If you're actually looking for an answer to your "why not" and not just submitting an idea on the wrong forum... well you probably know the possible answers, given CCP's track record with features (and bugs). Should I list?

I'll just list one: they won't have time to code short selling for at least 18 months.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.03 07:44:00 - [20]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.03 23:07:00 - [21]
 

Warlock, your idea about money is only realised after the short is closed is a very good idea. It is because the nature of this game and alt toons that can make it hard to implement like in the real world.



Originally by: Fozzy Dorsai
In stocks short selling is a technique where you borrow shares from someone who might, for example, own Apple Computer. You do this hoping that Apple will go down. You then buy the shares at the now lower price and return them to the person you borrowed them from. (You'll need to pay them interest for this priviledge.)
The problem with short selling in Eve is that there is no good, fluid way to borrow items from someone so that you can sell them. Most folks would be a bit leary (which is a gross understatement) to loan you anything.
Another possibility might be to sell a Put Option on an item, which would allow you to force someone else to buy it at a set price...again, you hope that the item goes down, you buy it cheap, and sell it dear.
Alas, in the real world there are market mechanisms for this; Eve is not that evolved.
Of course you can do any of this as a private side deal...but who to trust?


Fozzy, there is no need to make it into options. Just make them as positions where a trader can open and close their short positions is enough. When they open a short in NPC stations, the item magically (you can put a backstory like emergency supplies from the station) appears in the market. Someone can then buy it.

Of course, the money is not realised until the position is closed. To close the position, the trader will need to move the item from elsewhere back to the station to return to it.

However, all positions like normal orders have a time span. At expiry, if a position is not closed, the market automatically closes it and a trader will automatically be set back by the original amount in ISK. It can put the trader into negative ISKs.

It is a valid form of PVP. It can also provide sudden access to liquidity in game. It is also a zero sum game where nothing new is added to the economy. Although item magically appears, it needs to be returned (closed).


 

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