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Cycotic Maniac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.02.04 15:00:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
An in-game example:

Fred the missioner wants to go to low sec to run level 5's. He goes to some low sec near Molden Heath. He notices a lot of pirates from a large pirate corporation are in his area.

Fred looks them up, finds out they're willing to allow Fred to hang out in their region if Fred is willing to have taxes taken from his missioning and become one of their minions. Fred applies and is added to their tax list, and to their minion channel.

Fred can now mission, killing him would be somewhat counterproductive because now Freds existence is worth something, Fred can also act as a minion scout and provide details on non-enlisted miners / missioners and threats via the minion channel.


That is the same as current 0.0 rent agreements.



Buzzmong
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.02.04 15:22:00 - [32]
 

I would have thought that adding Navy ships to the gates on selected routes to null sec would work wonders for low sec, because it would make accessing low sec (and then null) easier. Seeing as it makes little difference with WTZ, it would just mean that camps don't exist on certain routes, which'll make the carebear population less afraid of dropping into low sec to do missions (where they can then be hunted).

Note, I only said on selected routes, the idea being once you get into the "safer" lowsec systems, you could go into the non protected low sec systems.

Basically, just make access easier, perhaps the map could do with altering to provide some more routes in and out via stargates though, so you don't get trapped in systems which only have two gates in (not that escaping is too difficult with WarpToZero anyway).

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.04 16:04:00 - [33]
 

Please don't add more sentries, navy or concord to the gateways. Opening up low-sec to the kindergarten crew will do more harm than good.
If the gateways are considered such a tall threshold then make them all regional gates. Camps are still possible but not without some serious devotion and specialised groups (read: gank magnets).

When thinking up ideas, try to avoid the trap that CCP fell into by thinking of it as a sibling of high-sec.
For low to truly come alive it needs a unique identity, one that is unlike both high and null.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.02.04 19:53:00 - [34]
 

Lowsec needs rewards which are only available in lowsec. Everything you can get in low-sec can also be found in 0.0 so why take a step into low-sec when you can go straight through to 0.0 for even more rewards.

Carebears braved the dangers of wormholes because they wanted to jump on the t3 bandwagon, some were beaten back, but others forged themselves into pioneers.

So, if CCP truly wants to make low-sec viable it needs to identify a resource that has value to pilots throughout new-eden, but which is only available in the low-sec areas of empire. Boosters are the first thing that many people suggest and that's a valid idea, but I'd suggest creating new 'pirate software' technology. Remove locator agents and replace them with illegal tracing software. Introduce new illegal tech that lets you hack passwords on cans or even POS shields. Add some new underworld enhanced modules designed to help piracy by forcing a victim to eject from a stricken ship allowing capture of a whole ship.

More of the same isn't going to bring people to low-sec.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.02.04 20:48:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Lowsec needs rewards which are only available in lowsec. Everything you can get in low-sec can also be found in 0.0 so why take a step into low-sec when you can go straight through to 0.0 for even more rewards.

Carebears braved the dangers of wormholes because they wanted to jump on the t3 bandwagon, some were beaten back, but others forged themselves into pioneers.

So, if CCP truly wants to make low-sec viable it needs to identify a resource that has value to pilots throughout new-eden, but which is only available in the low-sec areas of empire. Boosters are the first thing that many people suggest and that's a valid idea, but I'd suggest creating new 'pirate software' technology. Remove locator agents and replace them with illegal tracing software. Introduce new illegal tech that lets you hack passwords on cans or even POS shields. Add some new underworld enhanced modules designed to help piracy by forcing a victim to eject from a stricken ship allowing capture of a whole ship.

More of the same isn't going to bring people to low-sec.


I came.

Kuhn Arashi
Caldari
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2011.02.04 20:50:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Kuhn Arashi on 04/02/2011 20:50:56
(TL;DR versions at the bottom of post)
The reasons lowsec is not populated and likely never will is pretty simple really.

Lowsec is a free for all zone. people like to kill people.
however, unlike 0.0 no where is safe because you can't "own" lowsec so no one wants to fight
to keep it "Safe' for any group.

And even if some group decided to take a region of low sec and try to "protect" it in order
to build up a open space for people and to build up a market in lowsec.
*******s would come in and claim they are being oppressed by being told they cant kill
who and what they want and ruin it (See Providence)

That I see as the main problem

On a side note to something mentioned above about the 0.0 buffer zone.

This is true. 0.0 alliances want low sec to be low population. it increases security
if low sec became very popular it wouldn't take long before the lowsec dwellers went into 0.0 looking for juicy kills. and once that happens said 0.0 entity would saturate the surrounding lowsec and more or less purge the area.

because, quite frankly, any entity that exists in lowsec that isn't a 0.0 power, wouldn't stand a chance against any power bloc in 0.0

________________________________

No as for incentives to make lowsec more popular.
this is difficult provided my above statements are true.

However, I dont think adding new stuff like carebear rewards are the right way to do it.
lowsec changes should affect the current residents. IE Pirates.

One suggestion, make it less profitable to kill, and more profitable to actually pirate.
Aka, ransoms, demanding cargo etc.
a few adjustments to sec hit mechanics could assist in this.

activating offensive modules of any kind in low sec could be reduced so that intimidation tactics can be used to either fire a few warnings, and to capture/incap the prey so they listen to demands, without taking a large security hit.

however ship destruction sec loss could be increased. this would encourage people looking for profit ransoming for either ship, cargo, or isk, instead of taking a large sec hit from killing.
(wouldnt effect anyone who just wants to kill in the slightest -10 is -10 no matter how long it takes to get there)

Second, reduce insurance payout based on sec status. If you wanna be an "outlaw" then you should have to work outside normal society like one. not mooch off the same benefits the law abiding people do. (Again to encourage more profitable, and less carebear scaring piracy)

These ^, combined with some increases in carebear bait (missions, mining, etc etc) I think might help increase the popularity of low sec.

But of course, all of these depends on the first half of my post, IE. power blocs want low sec empty. and some people just wanna keel.

TL;DR problems:
0.0 alliances want low sec empty,

People dont like established "safe areas" when concord isnt around to enforce it

TL;DR suggestions:
reduce offensive sec status hit.
increase ship destruction sec status hit.
reduce insurance pay out based on sec status.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.04 22:34:00 - [37]
 

If they want to make low sec more popular, they're going to have to fix the problem every stinking MMO that's been around for a while has. They need to bridge the gap between the player who has 5 bil in their account, a 4 year old character, and no life aside from playing Eve and the player who is a few months old, a couple mil, and a job.

If they don't, the newer player has no desire to take on the older player, since they know they'll lose, and this is one of the main problems that plagues and roflstomps most mmo's into closure. The old players eventually get bored, and the new players get sick of never being able to catch up. Eve has just provided a fairly good environment in high sec for newer players to play, and this is mostly why Eve has stuck around, but until this gap is bridged, low sec will still have it's problems.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.04 23:07:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Selinate
If they want to make low sec more popular, they're going to have to fix the problem every stinking MMO that's been around for a while has. They need to bridge the gap between the player who has 5 bil in their account, a 4 year old character, and no life aside from playing Eve and the player who is a few months old, a couple mil, and a job.

If they don't, the newer player has no desire to take on the older player, since they know they'll lose, and this is one of the main problems that plagues and roflstomps most mmo's into closure. The old players eventually get bored, and the new players get sick of never being able to catch up. Eve has just provided a fairly good environment in high sec for newer players to play, and this is mostly why Eve has stuck around, but until this gap is bridged, low sec will still have it's problems.
Three 6 month old carebears in Drakes can kill almost any elite player with 5 billion isk wallet and 100 mil skill points. They just have to fit their ships properly - plain t2 mods. And they have to be smart about combat tactics

Admiral Leviathan
Posted - 2011.02.04 23:40:00 - [39]
 

You ready? You ready? YOU READY?

Why low-sec is better than high-sec:
Low-sec has level 5's.
Low-sec has better PI.
Low-sec has high-profit gas clouds.
Low-sec has better mini-profession sites.
Low-sec is less crowded.
Suicide ganking does not exist.
There are no invulnerable god-like entities (CONCORD).

Why low-sec is better than 0.0:
Low-sec has an interesting PVP approach favored by smaller to medium gangs.
Low-sec has every single pirate complex doable by a single person.
No bubbles, pods are safer.

I will not try to insinuate 0.0 offers less than low-sec, but there are advantages to remain in low. All the points above guarantee I will NEVER live in high-sec and will gladly fly in low-sec if there is no current opportunity in 0.0. nuff said.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:01:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Admiral Leviathan
You ready? You ready? YOU READY?

Why low-sec is better than high-sec:
Low-sec has level 5's.
Low-sec has better PI.
Low-sec has high-profit gas clouds.
Low-sec has better mini-profession sites.
Low-sec is less crowded.
Suicide ganking does not exist.
There are no invulnerable god-like entities (CONCORD).

Why low-sec is better than 0.0:
Low-sec has an interesting PVP approach favored by smaller to medium gangs.
Low-sec has every single pirate complex doable by a single person.
No bubbles, pods are safer.

I will not try to insinuate 0.0 offers less than low-sec, but there are advantages to remain in low. All the points above guarantee I will NEVER live in high-sec and will gladly fly in low-sec if there is no current opportunity in 0.0. nuff said.


So you're saying lowsec is fine and don't want anything new?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:37:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kuhn Arashi
...because, quite frankly, any entity that exists in lowsec that isn't a 0.0 power, wouldn't stand a chance against any power bloc in 0.0...

Pound for pound a null entity wouldn't last two rounds against a low ditto, might be tough to swallow for you but true nonetheless. Personally think it has to do with the differences in tactics, going from bubble-tackle and more caps than stars to none/few is a lot harder than the other way around.
Only reason why your statement should not be ignored is because of numbers + capitals. Remove either one of those and the null people better get used to guarding the front door Very Happy
Originally by: Admiral Leviathan
You ready? ...

- Missions that were supposed to be group efforts but turned out to be soloable .. "Yay!"
- PI is a fraction of a percent "better" than high-sec .. "Yay!"
- Exciting new visually pleasing mining opportunities .. "Yay!"
- Slightly better exploration content .. actually pretty nice so Yay! for real
- You'll still get ganked and aggressor won't auto-default his ship = you get ganked by bling .. "Yay!"
- Concord is replaced by the other god-like entities, super-carriers. No bubbles to keep them from doing whatever .. "Yay!"
Etc.

The fact that it is less crowded is actually the topic of this thread, it is so empty that it is perceived as a problem.
Reason is as already stated; it is high-sec all over again with a slightly higher potential pay-out and zero safety net. There is no rational reason to put down roots there instead of in high-sec which is why it is a "vacation" spot for everyone and home to none.

PS: You forgot the lack of nerd-drama!!!!11 Very Happy

Admiral Leviathan
Posted - 2011.02.05 00:47:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Originally by: Admiral Leviathan
You ready? You ready? YOU READY?

Why low-sec is better than high-sec:
Low-sec has level 5's.
Low-sec has better PI.
Low-sec has high-profit gas clouds.
Low-sec has better mini-profession sites.
Low-sec is less crowded.
Suicide ganking does not exist.
There are no invulnerable god-like entities (CONCORD).

Why low-sec is better than 0.0:
Low-sec has an interesting PVP approach favored by smaller to medium gangs.
Low-sec has every single pirate complex doable by a single person.
No bubbles, pods are safer.

I will not try to insinuate 0.0 offers less than low-sec, but there are advantages to remain in low. All the points above guarantee I will NEVER live in high-sec and will gladly fly in low-sec if there is no current opportunity in 0.0. nuff said.


So you're saying lowsec is fine and don't want anything new?


I'm saying I already see low-sec as a far superior place to than high-sec. And don't get me wrong, I've lost valuable ships to other pirates too. I would rather see EVE upgraded as a whole TBH.

This was my response to those who see low-sec as the no man's land where no sane person would live but inexplicably aggressive, stubborn and smack-talking pirates. I think it boils down to how people reason internally - I personally think that anything I lose is the result of my own miscalculation, not the ganking party. I fell into their trap, I committed the mistake. I would get mad if someone betrays me for instance. "Carebears" seem to have the opposite approach and hence stay in high-sec where they need CONCORD to hold their hand in case OTHERS do the "mistake" of trying to kill them. "Carebears" will blame YOU, not themselves when they die which is why those who pirate enjoy it so much, we love bashing on those who are different from us and associating ourselves with those who resemble us.

Admiral Leviathan
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:00:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kuhn Arashi
...because, quite frankly, any entity that exists in lowsec that isn't a 0.0 power, wouldn't stand a chance against any power bloc in 0.0...

Pound for pound a null entity wouldn't last two rounds against a low ditto, might be tough to swallow for you but true nonetheless. Personally think it has to do with the differences in tactics, going from bubble-tackle and more caps than stars to none/few is a lot harder than the other way around.
Only reason why your statement should not be ignored is because of numbers + capitals. Remove either one of those and the null people better get used to guarding the front door Very Happy
Originally by: Admiral Leviathan
You ready? ...

- Missions that were supposed to be group efforts but turned out to be soloable .. "Yay!"
- PI is a fraction of a percent "better" than high-sec .. "Yay!"
- Exciting new visually pleasing mining opportunities .. "Yay!"
- Slightly better exploration content .. actually pretty nice so Yay! for real
- You'll still get ganked and aggressor won't auto-default his ship = you get ganked by bling .. "Yay!"
- Concord is replaced by the other god-like entities, super-carriers. No bubbles to keep them from doing whatever .. "Yay!"
Etc.

The fact that it is less crowded is actually the topic of this thread, it is so empty that it is perceived as a problem.
Reason is as already stated; it is high-sec all over again with a slightly higher potential pay-out and zero safety net. There is no rational reason to put down roots there instead of in high-sec which is why it is a "vacation" spot for everyone and home to none.

PS: You forgot the lack of nerd-drama!!!!11 Very Happy


I will tell you a secret: I fear high-sec more than a fear 0.0, and 0.0 more than I fear low-sec.

My home is in low-sec, even if I currently am in a 0.0 corporation with my main. High-sec needs the nerf before you boost low-sec imo. If you do it right, pay out is quite bigger (level 5's) + Plexing. Low-sec being less crowded also forges friendships easier when you are not lost in the faceless mass. It also distinguishes your enemies easier. The game is far more open book and cards-on-the-table than high-sec.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:18:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Three 6 month old carebears in Drakes can kill almost any elite player with 5 billion isk wallet and 100 mil skill points. They just have to fit their ships properly - plain t2 mods. And they have to be smart about combat tactics

Rolling Eyes

Yes, because three 6 month old carebears flying around in drakes are going to come across one "elite" player, and come out victorious, and this one instance disproves what I just said.

Your post only proves your own idiocy. Seriously.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.05 01:38:00 - [45]
 

My point is that EVE is a game where a couple low skill players can beat a rich high skill player.

If you don't believe that, then clearly you haven't learned the game yet.
EVE is the most noob-friendly PvP game among all MMORPGs.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:06:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We have boosted low sec a few times before, ultimately what we are facing is psychology or "the wall". The possibility of risk introduces a barrier that is very hard to break down. Most people focus on the pain of loss, though the true pain of loss for any player is the time lost over the assets lost. Whether you have been playing the game for days or years, the time to replace your ship is fairly key to getting back running after being killed and this is fairly constant regardless of your "power".).


Now why do you think that is? You are making it harder for players to earn money.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

At the same time, we have somewhat of a catch 22 since as ebil pirates become more successful as predators, they drive away their prey ending up in you fighting for whatever unfortunate soul dare jumps "the wall". In short, boosting rewards rarely works unless it was very high, instead what should be done is create different activities in each zone so it is a different rather than comparative decision.



Make it very high then.

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

Buffing the roids is also a catch 22, more roids = more potential supply = price decrease. You might notice nocxium is fast becoming valuable and this comes from ores largely dominant in low sec. This was done by decreasing supply from other sources so there isnt always a need to increase supply (though that seems obvious to give more, although here, less=more).


You decreased the supply. Try increasing it.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:07:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron

EVE is the most noob-friendly PvP game among all MMORPGs.


Rolling Eyes

I've been hearing this crap since I started playing Eve a couple of years ago, and the same thing on every other MMO I've ever played. It is crap. People who aren't in denial know it. Fanbois will rave about it even after the game itself dies though.

So go on spouting this again and again. I couldn't care less, personally.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:21:00 - [48]
 

Seems to me like you are the only one who's in denial here.
The general public agrees with me

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.02.05 03:06:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We have boosted low sec a few times before, ultimately what we are facing is psychology or "the wall". The possibility of risk introduces a barrier that is very hard to break down. Most people focus on the pain of loss, though the true pain of loss for any player is the time lost over the assets lost. Whether you have been playing the game for days or years, the time to replace your ship is fairly key to getting back running after being killed and this is fairly constant regardless of your "power".

At the same time, we have somewhat of a catch 22 since as ebil pirates become more successful as predators, they drive away their prey ending up in you fighting for whatever unfortunate soul dare jumps "the wall". In short, boosting rewards rarely works unless it was very high, instead what should be done is create different activities in each zone so it is a different rather than comparative decision.

Buffing the roids is also a catch 22, more roids = more potential supply = price decrease. You might notice nocxium is fast becoming valuable and this comes from ores largely dominant in low sec. This was done by decreasing supply from other sources so there isnt always a need to increase supply (though that seems obvious to give more, although here, less=more).


And that nailed it pretty much. As a low sec resident for over 2 years now I've come to realize that I am the reason low sec is so sparsely populated. Obviously it isn't *just* me, but thousands of players like me. If you make the pve activities better, guys like me will just kill any new guys who come in. It's that simple really. The result is no real change until you reach that reward barrier where suddenly null sec alliances come in and take over because our space is better than theirs for isk grinding.

The way to boost low sec is to expand upon it's unique content. There should be lucrative isk making opportunities of course but simple isk grinding shouldn't be the focus. What makes low sec great is the pvp. As such, the best boosts to low sec are those that boost pvp there. No, that doesn't mean bubbles, bubbles would actually be a nerf to low sec pvp.

I think what should be done is to expand upon FW and improve it. Even 2.5 years on, we have thousands of players still actively fighting for basically nothing at all. We just beat each other up for the hell of it. This should be expanded upon to include the minor factions and more importantly, the pirate factions. I can't imagine there would be any shortage of people wanting to join the blood raiders to harvest that delicious capsuleer blood. Obviously the bugs within FW would have to be fixed (I'm looking at you RR standing bug, I petition that every single week). The mechanics could also use some work. More focus should be given to plex's and less to the missions. Perhaps the two should even be combined sort of like how sansha incursions are done (open mission/plex, most effective player/gang gets the reward).

In any case, low sec has pretty much always revolved around solo/small gang pvp. Trying to draw more players into that, without drawing them into large blobs thus killing small gang pvp there, should be the goal. Given the nature of eve, I'm not entirely sure as to how to encourage more small gangs in low sec instead of just bigger gangs. But there is bound to be a way.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.02.05 04:01:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 05/02/2011 04:02:53
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We have boosted low sec a few times before, ultimately what we are facing is psychology or "the wall". The possibility of risk introduces a barrier that is very hard to break down. Most people focus on the pain of loss, though the true pain of loss for any player is the time lost over the assets lost. Whether you have been playing the game for days or years, the time to replace your ship is fairly key to getting back running after being killed and this is fairly constant regardless of your "power".

At the same time, we have somewhat of a catch 22 since as ebil pirates become more successful as predators, they drive away their prey ending up in you fighting for whatever unfortunate soul dare jumps "the wall". In short, boosting rewards rarely works unless it was very high, instead what should be done is create different activities in each zone so it is a different rather than comparative decision.

Buffing the roids is also a catch 22, more roids = more potential supply = price decrease. You might notice nocxium is fast becoming valuable and this comes from ores largely dominant in low sec. This was done by decreasing supply from other sources so there isnt always a need to increase supply (though that seems obvious to give more, although here, less=more).

Boosting low sec through profitability is fail. Its been done multiple times and each time it failed.

The true pain of loss is imo, not financial but emotional. I think the average person would not bat an eyelid at a mission where there was a substantial risk of loss if the reward was good. However a person would most likely refuse to participate in a PvP mission where there was a substantial risk of loss, regardless of the reward, if that person was not inclined to PvP.

In short, nobody who dislikes PvP, will engage in activity with risk of PvP, because they do not wish to be killed by another player, losing to another player, especially with the current mechanics (gank, blob, ecm, hotdrops) is an unpleasant experience for some.

You want to fix low sec and reduce this 'wall'. You need to provide mechanics to players who do not wish to PvP which insulates them against PvP (not removes the chance entirely but reduce it to an acceptable level for those people).

Its either that or people just won't come, no matter if high sec is nerfed and low sec buffed. People will unsubscribe in most cases before they are forced to PvP if they do not like to PvP.

Just the way people are.

Solution is to introduce mechanics which makes it more likely that a PvP'r will do something other then PK any random that tries low sec out. It only takes one time, where a person think 'hey I might go find out what low sec is like' and 10 minutes later they're ship killed, podded and sent a smacky mail for them to never go back.

Short Story - Random killing of newbies, high sec dwellers and anyone else who comes transiting through = low population in low sec. Think that through Dev.

Godhammer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.05 05:09:00 - [51]
 

I am a carebear. If you want me in low sec let me get in unmolested. Gate camps are what keep me out of low sec. I donít mind (much) losing my Dramiel or Jaguar to a pirate while missioning / exploring etc, I do mind losing it to mindless easy kill gate campers.

Since gate campers wonít let people in without killing on entry, people have suggested Concord at gates to prevent gate camps. Concord does not belong in low sec. I suggest something similar that may actually benefit pirates.

Allow me to align and warp without dropping gate cloak. The cloak drops 30 seconds after warp is initiated or whatever time is left of the 60 seconds, whichever is less. ie Ė I sit for 45 seconds after jumping in then warp. I have 15 seconds left of warped cloaking instead of the 30 I would have if I warped right away.

This would allow me to get into low sec and allow me to at least start my activities, while the pirates can scan and hunt me down. If you want my loot, earn it. If I want to keep it I must play your game and stay on the lookout or on the run.

This would also allow me to gather more stuff for you to loot if / when you catch me. You could still camp the gate to perhaps catch me on exit (with more loot in my hold), or you could camp celestials in wait for me, especially if the system has only a few I can warp to.

This would give me the slight sense of security I would need to enter low sec and at least try to do something.

I have a shot at getting something done, and you get a carebear into low sec to play cat and mouse with. Even if I come in with a t1 fitted t1 ship, I may get some nice loot that is worth more than my ship, making it worthwhile for you to hunt me down.

This idea may be completely fail (as I donít go to low sec so I donít know the ramifications of this idea) but something along these lines would get me into low sec.

All I want is a chance, and gate campers remove that chance.

Sorry if this has been proposed before.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.05 05:54:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Seems to me like you are the only one who's in denial here.
The general public agrees with me


Yeah, you can keep thinking that if you want. The general public is not the forum, and this argument has been done many times before. Each time I see it, it just shows more and more of a fanboi desperately trying to defend his game and status.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.02.05 07:03:00 - [53]
 

So we need a reward system that pirates don't want to use, but industrialists want to and would be willing either fight or make a bargain with pirates. The reward would have to be decent enough to make it worth while for the industrialist to be able to hire someone to protect them. The industrialists would also need a ship durable enough that it could be protected, as it currently stands only a handful of high alpha ships are needed to kill almost any industrial ship other than the capitals in a single volley. Basically there needs to be a mining ship that has a hit point buffer so it could receive reps before it dies.

M Blanc
Posted - 2011.02.05 07:39:00 - [54]
 

Using the population numbers from the Q2 2010 QEN and system counts from Grismar's site:

Highsec has 15% of the game's total systems and 53% of the total population
Lowsec has 9% of the game's total systems and 8% of the total population
Nullsec has 44% of the game's total systems and 32% of the total population
W-space has 32% of the game's total systems and 7% of the total population

We can get a measure of the population density in each type of space by dividing the percentage of players living in that type of space by the percentage of the game's total systems belonging to that type of space:

Highsec "population density": 3.53
Lowsec "population density": 0.89
Nullsec "population density": 0.73
W-space "population density": 0.22

So if lowsec is the most densely-populated pvp-friendly type of space... what exactly is it about it that needs fixing?

I'm not saying that it's perfect or that there aren't changes I'd like to see, but it's nowhere near as badly-off as some people want to make out.

Infinity Ziona
Minmatar
Cloakers
Posted - 2011.02.05 08:02:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: M Blanc
Using the population numbers from the Q2 2010 QEN and system counts from Grismar's site:

Highsec has 15% of the game's total systems and 53% of the total population
Lowsec has 9% of the game's total systems and 8% of the total population
Nullsec has 44% of the game's total systems and 32% of the total population
W-space has 32% of the game's total systems and 7% of the total population

We can get a measure of the population density in each type of space by dividing the percentage of players living in that type of space by the percentage of the game's total systems belonging to that type of space:

Highsec "population density": 3.53
Lowsec "population density": 0.89
Nullsec "population density": 0.73
W-space "population density": 0.22

So if lowsec is the most densely-populated pvp-friendly type of space... what exactly is it about it that needs fixing?

I'm not saying that it's perfect or that there aren't changes I'd like to see, but it's nowhere near as badly-off as some people want to make out.

Population density is unimportant given the under utilization of null and high sec systems and the major discrepancies between the numbers of systems in each group. Your numbers serve only to obfuscate.

The Reality:
Highsec: 53% of the population
Nullsec: 32% of the population
Lowsec: 8% of the population
WH: 7% of the population.

Low sec has 400% less people then null. Given the much greater access and availability of low sec and the purported purpose of low sec as being a training ground for null and WH space theres seems to me to be a major issue with low sec with only 8% choosing to live there and 53% remaining in high sec, ignoring low sec as an option.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.02.05 08:12:00 - [56]
 

Anyone see an issue with low sec being able to have their cake and eat it too? What I mean is you get to do un-consensual PvP and then immediately run to the safety of stations.

What would low sec be like if there was no stations at all?

Kuhn Arashi
Caldari
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2011.02.05 09:27:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kuhn Arashi
...because, quite frankly, any entity that exists in lowsec that isn't a 0.0 power, wouldn't stand a chance against any power bloc in 0.0...

Pound for pound a null entity wouldn't last two rounds against a low ditto, might be tough to swallow for you but true nonetheless. Personally think it has to do with the differences in tactics, going from bubble-tackle and more caps than stars to none/few is a lot harder than the other way around.
Only reason why your statement should not be ignored is because of numbers + capitals. Remove either one of those and the null people better get used to guarding the front door Very Happy



Its different play styles. and I will admit I have far more itneresting fights in low sec with those pilots. and they are indeed highly skilled.
However, The infamous Null sec alliance Blob has numbers that I have never seen matched by any lowsec only entity.

Low sec may have more experienced and talented pilots per corp/alliance, but thanks to eve's lovely mechanics. the lag inducing, circle jerkfest of blob warfare has no viable counter that isnt an opposing blob.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.05 10:03:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Anyone see an issue...

The cake we are asking for and have been asked for since before I started playing is meaningful content. So yes, low-sec should have it and be able to eat it too just like null and high.
The pew part is a direct result of Concord and the lack thereof and stations do not really factor into it except for gankers and their prey.
Originally by: M Blanc
Using the population...

Remove FW related (which represents the only "new" thing in low-sec) pilots/systems and I'd wager the number goes way down.
Remove alts tending POS, passers through, alts never undocking in Jita etc. and the numbers change dramatically.

Outside of the clusters comprised of mission hubs + pipes to/from and FW you rarely see anyone in space when travelling low-sec.

Creh Ester
Posted - 2011.02.05 11:25:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Infinity Ziona
EvE is a broken PvP Game. The problem lies in the foundation of the EvE mechanics.

To fix low sec you need to fix the foundations of EvE pvp. In any PvP game were tangible loss is incorporated into the game you also need to incorporate tangible penalties. EvE has no real tangible penalties.

Imagine your real life self and the following scenario's.

1. You could make a clone of yourself that had no feasible link to yourself and direct that clone to do whatever you wanted ie. (you could get that clone to go rob a bank for you, even if he got caught there is no possible way that he could be linked to you. If he succeeds, any profit he makes is given to you and is untracable. Imagine what you would do with that clone in real life?

2. Imagine you could go to any suburb other then where you live. You can commit any crime and as long as you do it outside your suburb you are immune to repercussions. If you want to go back to that suburb you can do a couple of hours of community service and get paid full wages for it, regardless of your crime (****, murder, extortion) after a few days the cops will forgive you and your sweet. You can do this as many times as you like.

3. Imagine you could go to any country in the world other then your country. You can commit any crime (murder, ****, robbery) and as long as you don't commit any crime in your own country no action is taken against you.

4. Imagine nobody has any patriotism. You can kill your countrymen, strangers and allies. No matter who you kill each killing is considered just as bad as the others. You can go next door and kill and rob your neighbor or go to Afghanistan and kill and rob a terrorist. The police consider both crimes to be equally bad. Regardless of what you do, completing a couple of hours of full wage community service will fix that crime up and you'll never had to face justice.

Considering the above examples its no wonder that people are afraid to go to low sec or null sec. There are not difficult consequences for murder and robbery in EvE. Everyone and his dog has a unlimited number of get out of jail free cards. Even a serial killer with 10,000 murders under his belt only needs to spend a week of profitable community service to be completely forgiven.

Introduce real reasons not to kill certain people (minny killing minny vs minny killing amarr, should separate penalties), introduce a real penalty for serial murder, introduce a real reason to ransom and the mechanics to go with it, introduce a real reason not to kill legitimately unoffensive people (traders (goods requirements for low sec that provide substantial benefits for the would be killers), mission runners (benefits for the would be killers that occur for allowing missioners to run missions), miners (benefits for the would be killers that occur for allowing miners to be unmolested).

If you don't understand what I mean by the last paragraph, imagine a place like Afghanistan and ask yourself why both the Taliban and the Coalition don't just kill everyone (farmers, merchants etc). And then compare that with low sec and null where everyone kills everyone not directly associated. Simple reason is non-associated people in EvE have no intrinsic value at all while in RL the true value is in those people, they're what generate income that taxes, support and goods are siphoned from.

I believe this is the most important contribution to this thread sofar. There are problems with working out solutions to this, and it ultimately affects so much more than lowsec play. Personally, I think it also is a question of combat mechanics (i.e. gang modules + need for bears to fly expensive and vulnerable ships) in the game. The carebear, regardless of age, skills and experience, never have a sporting chance, not even against noobs.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.02.05 11:43:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Memcoll
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
... Whether you have been playing the game for days or years, the time to replace your ship is fairly key to getting back running after being killed and this is fairly constant regardless of your "power".).


Now why do you think that is? You are making it harder for players to earn money.


It's actually far easier for players to earn ISK today than it was three years ago. T3 ships, datacore farming, PI, Incursions - these are all methods for a player to get ISK into their wallet, which didn't exist three years ago.

The barrier to entering lowsec is mostly psychological: there's the fear of being caught in yet another gate camp. There is also the expertise barrier - without knowing how to safely survive in lowsec, pilots will inevitably die. Without spending time not dying in lowsec, pilots will not learn the skills involved with surviving.

I believe that what will get more people out into lowsec is more people going out into lowsec. Once people perceive that lowsec can be survived - and more importantly enjoyed - they might me less reticent to head out there and give the lowsec lifestyle a try.

Well, that and keeping supercarrier hot drops off the menu.


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