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Grace Wing
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2011.02.06 15:48:00 - [31]
 

/signed

Lots of good ideas. More sexy voices, less missions, more player interaction.

There should be some kind of interface where "uni" corps can directly interact with eve trainess in some way.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.02.06 16:00:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/02/2011 16:14:40

Originally by: Sloppyslug
Its definetly about the depth of its sandbox, but people do not see that at the start, they just get hugely bored and confused without seeing the overall depth you’re talking about my friend.

Well ok, maybe it's just me (and some friends I know), but when I started Eve I was very excited and curious. I was not getting bored.
I loved to find things out on my own. I loved just doing stuff, without the ever-present guides and/or planners à la Evemon.
Maybe current new players don't have that particular explorer gene. Maybe they are not able to keep themselves busy.
It would be kinda sad, but in that case, yes, Eve could do with a bit more 'approachability'.

Good explanation and a well designed tutorials definitely don't contradict difficulty or depth.
That means it's possible to offer a smoother way into the game without dumbing things down.
So yes, the start of the game, as long as explanation and teaching are concerned, could and should always be optimized.
I totally agree with the Escapist's video you linked earlier. Epic stuff Wink
If at all, Eve needs an easier approach. No dumbing down, no making easier or faster. Just more explanation and a bit more excitement at the beginning.
Oh, and regarding the closing of a Warhammer Online server someone said that games which rely too heavily on eihter PvE or PvP are likely to fail. I had to think about Eve for a moment and whether that might apply here as well. Right now many PvP'ers get bored, and there's no real alternative or variety in the game to entertain them while waiting for things to change or improve.
I personally agreee that a great game is one that combines PvE with PvP, because "variatio delectat" and I believe in what Richard Bartle said about gamer archetypes. It's just a far more healthy mix if you got a bit of everything.

-edit-
The comment about learning skills was actually nothing more than sarcasm. Wasn't aimed at the OP.
It was always obvious that learning skills were not the only thing that turned new players off. Actually I think it was one of the minor issues. It was just so easy to beat on and handy for multi account powergamers..

betoli
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.07 11:37:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: betoli on 07/02/2011 11:38:40
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/02/2011 16:14:40

Originally by: Sloppyslug
Its definetly about the depth of its sandbox, but people do not see that at the start, they just get hugely bored and confused without seeing the overall depth you’re talking about my friend.

Well ok, maybe it's just me (and some friends I know), but when I started Eve I was very excited and curious. I was not getting bored.
I loved to find things out on my own. I loved just doing stuff, without the ever-present guides and/or planners à la Evemon.
Maybe current new players don't have that particular explorer gene. Maybe they are not able to keep themselves busy.
It would be kinda sad, but in that case, yes, Eve could do with a bit more 'approachability'.



Agree. Thats why eve has the 'type' of players that it does.

If anything the UI was the biggest turn off. Its completely unobvious how to do stuff and hurts your eyes trying! Eve could do with a UI redisign that isn't so centric around lots of windows full of lists.


Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.07 16:35:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: betoli
Edited by: betoli on 07/02/2011 11:38:40
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/02/2011 16:14:40

Originally by: Sloppyslug
Its definetly about the depth of its sandbox, but people do not see that at the start, they just get hugely bored and confused without seeing the overall depth you’re talking about my friend.

Well ok, maybe it's just me (and some friends I know), but when I started Eve I was very excited and curious. I was not getting bored.
I loved to find things out on my own. I loved just doing stuff, without the ever-present guides and/or planners à la Evemon.
Maybe current new players don't have that particular explorer gene. Maybe they are not able to keep themselves busy.
It would be kinda sad, but in that case, yes, Eve could do with a bit more 'approachability'.



Agree. Thats why eve has the 'type' of players that it does.

If anything the UI was the biggest turn off. Its completely unobvious how to do stuff and hurts your eyes trying! Eve could do with a UI redisign that isn't so centric around lots of windows full of lists.




That is good and that is probably why your one of the people which stayed playing the game ^^. When I started this game a couple of years ago I did find the same I was excited at what I could achieve, but due to the massive amounts of wait times, I did get bored before I could get to the point where I could do it due to the start. Which is kind of what we are emphasising, there is a long wait time before the player can get to their goals, but we want to make them enjoy every bit of the start until they get there. Also for people who just try the game “here try this trial” with knowing not much about the game, the starting of the game is a horrific example of what is achievable by players within the game. Just getting reasons to increase the overall enjoyment for any player knowledgeable or not :), there is no reason why people from different backgrounds cant play, it should not have to be a mainstream of types.

People have been spoiled these days with the high end quality of newer games design and I would like to bring eve into a bit more modern. That is why you will see a lot of the players may not have ever played a game before or very few games, they tend to stay longer, I definitely see a pattern in that area.

Melting Mop
Posted - 2011.02.12 17:05:00 - [35]
 

bumped support Very Happy!

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2011.02.12 20:24:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 12/02/2011 20:27:09
Originally by: Sloppyslug
People have been spoiled these days with the high end quality of newer games design and I would like to bring eve into a bit more modern. That is why you will see a lot of the players may not have ever played a game before or very few games, they tend to stay longer, I definitely see a pattern in that area.

Spoiled, yes.
High end quality of newer games? Erm, not sure at all.
What I see is a whole lot of easy games, many bad games, games with a very short total gametime to complete and gamers who adapt to the ciscumstances with short attention spans. I mean, you can't possibly play all the games that come out. Yet many want to be up to date. Today many players don't stay with one title for a long time. They switch to the next game as soon as something new or fancy comes out.

Imho Eve just doesn't appeal to most modern young players. Making the game easy to get them to try Eve out is dangerous, because it can and probably will annoy older Eve players, and it goes heavily against Eve's core design.

Trying to attract them with cool new features and fancy graphics instead might be the better way, and it seems the devs are doing exactly that.

In addition, good explanation and a smooth start that makes you feel good and not small or weak is what probably needs a bit more emphasis.
New players need to be told that you don't have to fly a titan to 'be someone'.
Veteran players know that you can create a new character and make your first billion within your first months of trading, or that you can be successful in PvP within weeks or even days.
New players don't.
The new player experience should work on that, instead of treating them like babies.
Spoon-feeding and instant rewards simply encourages spoiled gamers to stay spoiled and not treat Eve as something special. That's why they'll complain a lot and eventually leave.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.13 17:18:00 - [37]
 

Maybe. But your I feel your looking into a game with far too much depth, sounds slightly like a tough life. We play games for entertainment and to enjoy, I feel a bit of spoon feeding helps a lot for such a deep game like this. Gamers now play for these specific reasons unless your willing to leave your job and dedicate your life to the game.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.13 18:55:00 - [38]
 

I must note that to most non-english speaking people, it is far easier to READ than to LISTEN to English. Missing a word in a spoken text means you may miss the whole point of it.

Also, provided how Incarna is outstraining CCP's manpower, all this suggestions are kinda pointless unless we expect them to happen in about two years, once developers' workload thins away. Confused

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.14 17:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
I must note that to most non-english speaking people, it is far easier to READ than to LISTEN to English. Missing a word in a spoken text means you may miss the whole point of it.

Also, provided how Incarna is outstraining CCP's manpower, all this suggestions are kinda pointless unless we expect them to happen in about two years, once developers' workload thins away. Confused


This is why I presented the idea of Spoken AND Read, you dont have to skip to the next bit untill your read.

Well if they are a bit smart about it they will realise that it will be a bit of waste of their time with less members then more :).

Valcerus
Posted - 2011.02.15 12:23:00 - [40]
 

you've suggested to add voice in the initial tutorial to attract lazy people but do you think that the majority of us stayed in eve because of that tutorial or other reasons?

I highly doubt that the tutorial is the sole reason why people leave Eve, but then again I could be wrong.

I do agree with some of the points you've made and Incarna may be the first step towards pulling all those players who were unimpresssed with Eve's initial stages, in Fact I can see some people playing Eve for the social aspect only.

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.02.15 15:08:00 - [41]
 

Agreed on 1-3.

Just did the tutorials(not new but for an alt) and really they where boring(but informative and well done) Some voice would help draw people that much more into the game...

The tutorial system supports each branch and maybe a bit more lead in to the other branches may be needed. Some little cut scene or other saying all the things you can do.

Imagining a short youtube time ingame video out lining minning and showing how all things come from ore or some of the other paths...a little box saying to check the other tutorials will nto get players fired up to play eve.

Further more suggesting possible short term goals would be nice. After completing the minning tutorial a brief explantion of moving towards a hulk or a cruiser to mine may keep players intrested as they race to the next goal. Hopefully in that time joining a corp and learning the game.

EG) COngrats on grabbing that ore, we where a little short or critical war materials. Ore is always in need in EvE and miners form the critical back bone of every corperation aliance and even the "players faction".

It is possible to drastically increase your ore production with specialized ships. The "racial minning frigate" you recieved is great step forwards but "racial cruiser" would increase your effeciency considerably. There are also ORe ships..ships such as these represent the pinacle of minning in eve and are capable of pulling in ????ore per hour.

Once you gained considerable knowledge of minning in eve return to me and we can discuse refining.


at each stage a short clip of the vessel in question is shown dramtically chewing through rocks.



One for each proffesion might be cool. give a player goals.

WolfMarrell
Posted - 2011.02.15 17:45:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: WolfMarrell on 15/02/2011 17:46:16
Originally by: Sloppyslug

...
**Ideas**

...

second) I feel a lot more needs to be done to the start to liven it up, at first glance a lot of people I have spoken to get the impression that all you in the game is run missions, and its tedious mission reading, grinding, and then coming back and doing the same sort of mission again. With a bit more story line and ingenuity some of the missions could be hugely more appealing to want to play and find out what happens, from basic camera effects, sound, cinematic effects to captivate the pilot, giving the pilot time to progress.

Third) Back to the point where people think the game is only about running missions, I would like people’s ideas on this to help. There NEEDS to be some sort of tool used to show the bigger picture of the game and allow them to do a lot more than just mission run, I was lucky enough to be found by a corp; but there maybe should be a user friendly corp interface or such so they can see what other corps do.

...



I like the idea, specially about the cinimatic/camera effects. CCP certainly has the ability to do it, we've seen their video's for years. With the new character system they've so graciously paraded around, they could even do character cinematic of people interacting.

Problem: This would require an IMMENSE amount of work. I mean just staggering, if they made it worth the while.

I have always said that missions are stupid, boring, and bland. Its why i dont bother. I think theres alot that could be done honestly, such as have the agent contact YOU... Make it feel like your a real merc out on the field. Concept this-

You walk into an agent office, and ask them what they got. They hand you a file, a report on a Guristas drug op going on 2 systems over, he wants you to take care of it. All of it... Including their supply line and neighbors.

You head out, and approach the mission area. Perhaps some more pizazz could be exerted to make this bit more... interesting... but alas, you take out the drug op.

As you mop up the last of the drug labs there, your agent contacts you IN SPACE, informing you that they've located their supply/manufacturing outpost in the system over. "Take care of it..." and you get a book mark to the outpost. While taking care of that, your agent contacts you again in the middle of the mission. The Pirate forces decided to launch a counter attack on some militia assets, and they need help. They give you the choice, finish up what you've already started, or to leave the drug outpost alone and help out the military forces...

This could be a small decision, but it makes things interesting, as if your in a real, evolving world. The decision could affect just more money VS more rep, or if you have friends (EvE is about teamwork after all) you could take care of both, and really boost the rewards.

Using a similar method, theres also no reason you couldnt just seed missions. A mission could be taken with a "starter", that "could" branch off, or it could just be as simple as a mop up.

I think this would make missions immensely more entertaining. I'd even participate.


Probably the wrong topic, but it diffidently gave me the idea. I think i'll paste this in its own idea thread, as this one is about making early game more entertaining (though this would equally serve)

Thoughts?


Allegar
Posted - 2011.02.15 19:34:00 - [43]
 

well i have to say i'm not a fan of first idea. first of all that kind of laziness is the symptom of a macroer. second of all... i personally find minority of younger players a redeeming quality in this game. so i'm not concerned about them feeling more welcom. and by the way i have dyslexia. obviously not a worse case scenario but it's not liek people with it are blind. we just get things switched around. so using that as an excuse won't work

other than that yes i agree they should always strive to make the begining more gripping

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.16 01:15:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Valcerus
you've suggested to add voice in the initial tutorial to attract lazy people but do you think that the majority of us stayed in eve because of that tutorial or other reasons?

I highly doubt that the tutorial is the sole reason why people leave Eve, but then again I could be wrong.

I do agree with some of the points you've made and Incarna may be the first step towards pulling all those players who were unimpresssed with Eve's initial stages, in Fact I can see some people playing Eve for the social aspect only.


Certainly not! All i am trying to do is give eve the popularity it deserves for its depth. I want to offer a smoother cliff for them to start on that is all, I have spoken to a lot of people who have left eve because of the start and they do find it just boring, nothing hooks them in; I know them personally and I know they would love the depth just the start was not enjoyable, informative or imersive for them.

AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Atomic Geese
Posted - 2011.02.16 02:47:00 - [45]
 

My input on this ends up being by bringing up my own ideas for improving new player content, as seen in my thread here

Players don't only need something to be interesting for them to want to do it, they need it to be rewarding. Even with pretty cinematics, players will get bored of the tutorials if they don't get rewarded for doing them, which is in part why the current tutorial is at least moderately successful, in ways. It gives people some free stuff, so they keep wanting to do more to see what else they might get.

If they know that all they're going to get when they click next or finish a pop quiz is more cinematics and more stuff they have to do, it may still not be as interesting to them.

Melting Mop
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:13:00 - [46]
 

The game being hard and deep is a huge benifit, its just ashame most the people leave before getting into it. The start always seems to bore people, I could understand now that gamers want entertainment and fun not a boring job

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.18 18:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Melting Mop
The game being hard and deep is a huge benifit, its just ashame most the people leave before getting into it. The start always seems to bore people, I could understand now that gamers want entertainment and fun not a boring job


Yes and this is why we are placing emphasis on the start, it is sad for it to be so overlooked and miss out.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.20 16:23:00 - [48]
 

bump

boseo
Gallente
Azure Horizon
Posted - 2011.02.20 19:55:00 - [49]
 

I'm hoping personally that the starting in captains quarters might help.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.22 18:00:00 - [50]
 

I would like to see the games growth or decline over the years, accordance to advertisement and updates.

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.02.22 18:15:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Jaik7 on 22/02/2011 20:00:58
Edited by: Jaik7 on 22/02/2011 18:32:32
you'd have to be a special kind of crazy to start the game at this point.

eve is competitive, where players are almost forced to fight.

the skill system is almost capless, making older players seem like gods when they can run t2 everything and switch between various races of capital ships while acting like it's no big deal.

the result: one single person corp with a six year old guy in it can wardec a corp of ten, month old players and shred them in his loki. (true story)

for this game to be properly balanced, there needs to be a way for young players to not get wasted by an older player in combat. as it is, any person in a corp can be fair game to anyone with a few million. i don't mean that the odds should be even, because the billion isk stretegic cruiser with a hotshot pilot should be vastly superiorer to about thirty million worth of t1 cruisers and frigates piloted by rookies, but even a navy seal might be injured by a lucky shot from a civilian. we had no chance of killing that loki, and that's what bugs me.

that loki pilot had no risk, and he was able to destroy the sad fleet that was actually the best we could muster.

any pilot who starts the game today hoping to compete with the big boys will only be able to do so on a very limited field, and that only if he specializes in a very small area.

as far as the tutorial is concerned, i personally had to ask in the much more helpful rookie chat box "i'm pressing the w key, and my ship's not moving. what do i do?" after i got three lols and a 'stupid noob', somebody actually told me that i had to approach an object. confused as to what that meant, i started pushing all the buttens, and managed to get myself concorded.

i launched, made sure to avoid all the buttens that looked like guns, and managed to put my ship in warp to another station. i had no idea how i did that, so i asked in help chat, which got me more jeers and lols, and then one guy mentioned something about a conditional menu. i finally tried rclicking, and that's when i saw the mission that the first agent gave me. i went there, and then tried more buttens. after finding my wallet and being thrilled that i had 2k isk, i started getting hit by the rat. fortunatly, they set it up so that rat can't kill you so i had plenty of time to figure out that the action that had gotten me concorded was the one i was supposed to do to the rat.

after that point, i managed to use the things i learned in that failcascade to complete the missions the tutorial agents assigned me, and then when i asked 'what do i do now?' in rookie help, i got invited to join rookie empire's public channel, and after goshee helped me to learn about fleet stuff, i joined a corp and figured out what i liked to do in the game. been working on that ever since.

in conclusion, the tutorial does not explain much, and older players need to have some risk when they pwn newbies.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.23 14:34:00 - [52]
 

The benifits of being an old player are obvious and is pretty much how it should be, but not too massively. I think the way its intended is the older players find null sec more appealing and the noobs grow up in high sec.

Wardecking noob corps is a massive problem I do agree with you there, Corps are a major area in which people find out about eve, get help, get involved etc. I am not sure how this should be fixed though, not being allowed to wardeck university corps would be good, but that should also restrict them from going into null. An increase of personalisation of null sec would also make it seem more appealing. As we all know it’s almost impossible for any new corp to push into null, but can rent.

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.02.23 14:41:00 - [53]
 

sloppy, wardecs have no purpose in null. you don't get a sec status hit for podding out there. a university could take territory and lose it just like everyone else.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.02.23 14:45:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jaik7
sloppy, wardecs have no purpose in null. you don't get a sec status hit for podding out there. a university could take territory and lose it just like everyone else.


Yes that is what I’m saying :P, for university corps that try helping players, they cannot move to null because they will be destroyed and not trusted. In high sec they can easily be wardecked for easy kills.

Jokerface666
Amarr
Posted - 2011.02.23 16:05:00 - [55]
 

Check this out: Linkage

Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.23 17:26:00 - [56]
 

I think the turtorials need to be "learn by example" instead of "learn by reading". Most people learn well the first way, few people learn well simply by reading. Why are stabs important, what's point, etc. Perhaps a sandbox within a sandbox -- the tutorial missions could just GIVE you ships (not real ones) to learn different facets. For example, you go on mission 1 and do well, but mission 2 the rats have adapted and are speed tanking you, so the agent gives you a ship with blasters and webbers. Then on mission 3 the rats adapt again and try sniping you with a short range buffer, and so on. Make it engaging so that at the end you know WHY you should have certain modules over others -- not just have it written down for you.

Melting Mop
Posted - 2011.02.25 14:20:00 - [57]
 

Quite constructive.

Melting Mop
Posted - 2011.02.28 17:09:00 - [58]
 

But as he has said remember to differ a game as entertainment from a job.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.04.01 11:09:00 - [59]
 

About time to let them see again.

Sloppyslug
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:49:00 - [60]
 

bump


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