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Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.02.02 10:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Thenoran on 02/02/2011 10:54:09
I'm up for something a little different so I figured I'd give solo Gas Mining a try, even in potentially hostile wormholes.
I'll aim to mine a good amount of gas in a specialized ship and get out again, with any local parties having a hard time trying to find me or get me.

Ship-wise I think a Legion (which I can fly) would suit this purpose quite well.
It can get enough ECCM to be immune to ship probing, can be fitted with Interdiction Nullifier and a Covert Ops cloak.
Using the CovOps sub along with Augmented Sub gives the 5 turrets needed for Gas Mining.

For hauling I intend to use my Crane to dump two 3900m3 containers at a safespot where my Legion will warp to and from to drop off stuff.
This shaves off a lot of travel through the wormhole with my Legion, leaving more mass remaining per m3 mined.
Instead of having to jump through the wormhole every 500-700m3 I only have to do it every 7800m3.
I suppose I could also just create a jetcan at the safespot.

With ECCM making the Legion unprobable and a CovOps cloak, MWD and Interdiction Nullifier I should be able to travel freely through the wormhole. The only way to be found would be for the hostiles to find the site I'm at, but since I'll move away from the warp-in spot and keeping an eye on directional I should be relatively safe. The only thing that could really kill me is probably a cloaky recon that stays cloaked for the entire duration and then decloaks on me.

My question to you, how (relatively) safe would my Legion be and is there some profit to be had doing this?
Not looking to top lvl 4 mission running incomes, but it would be nice if it brought in a little ISK aside from making the locals cringe, since all they see is a Legion and they'll probably assume I'll be running Mag/Radar/Combat sites with it.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.02.02 10:58:00 - [2]
 

I have not lived in a WH, but I have run sites in them (including gas sites), I usually try to find empty holes.

My concern for you would be that an exitsting dweller would already have all the sites probed out and bookmarked, so if I was them, I would send a cloaky round all the sites to find you.

Then they just have to warp in on top of you without you seeing any probes out on directional.

Good luck in your endevors and fly safe!

Isliel
Posted - 2011.02.02 11:13:00 - [3]
 

Legion is very expensive for the job. You can't use the cloak at the same time you use the gas harvesters but it should provide safer travel. Being unprobable won't help you if the WH dwellers have the anoms BM'ed already, they'll just scout around and find you eventually using a covops that you won't see on d-scan or know is there (but I admit, the last place they'll look for a legion would be a ladar site).

To answer your questions, yes, you would be 'relatively' safe for a 0.0 system.

No, there isn't much ISK to be made. At least not for the time/effort put in. Scanning down a WH system (I assume your legion will have a scan probe launcher?), scanning down a ladar site once inside, harvesting 500-700m3 (unless you have warp stabs in the low slots, in which case fewer cargohold expanders), warping to/from a safespot, retreiving said gas. Many, many hours work and far, far less ISK than running anoms in the WH. At a conservative guess, 20m per hour, dependant upon a lot of factors.

Yes, you will make the locals cringe. They'll either hide or try to hunt you down relentlessly. If it's the later then no matter how well you try and hide, you won't be there long enough to finish off that ladar site (in C3's and above, they can take a good few hours)


Sunoccard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.02.02 13:56:00 - [4]
 

I live in a C2, and we often get people who come in to run our sites, and for the little bit of gas you would be able to salvage it's not worth the risk I don't think. If you are serious about doing it, don't use the legion. It's risking way too much, a harbinger should be should be ample for C1 and C2. Second, you'll have to do it in uninhabited WHs otherwise they'll scan you down really fast, especially if you go dropping can in the middle of space.
Something else you may have not have thought about, people could be sitting at the WH entrance so they can see when you enter.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.02.02 14:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Sunoccard
I live in a C2, and we often get people who come in to run our sites, and for the little bit of gas you would be able to salvage it's not worth the risk I don't think. If you are serious about doing it, don't use the legion. It's risking way too much, a harbinger should be should be ample for C1 and C2. Second, you'll have to do it in uninhabited WHs otherwise they'll scan you down really fast, especially if you go dropping can in the middle of space.
Something else you may have not have thought about, people could be sitting at the WH entrance so they can see when you enter.


A Covert Ops Legion with Interdiction Nullifier wouldn't care much if the wormhole was camped.
I'd just insta-cloak and warp off, bubble or no bubble.
Cans aren't scannable afaik.

If I want to use a non-cloaky ship I'd use the Moa, it can fit enough ECCM to be nearly unscannable and has a slot for a probe launcher.
It wouldn't be immune to bubbles though, I suppose I shouls use a cheap jump clone if I'm flying the Moa.

How often do wormholes get bubbled, every single one that is inhabited or only a few here and there?

Xenophager
Posted - 2011.02.02 14:25:00 - [6]
 

I run very much wh-sites, and this for a long time whilst i'm not in a wh corporation.
of the let's say 100 wh's i've entered, there was ONE bubbled.
it was a small team of 1 Onyx, 3 Ravens and 1 Drake, but they weren't able to kill my Thrasher (which was brought in for salvaging), thanks to the overheated and oversized AB which catapulted me out of the bubble into warp ;)

oh, and even if there are control-towers in a wh, it's not likely that there are players in there.
most of the times i run sites, no-one than other site-runners show up.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.02 14:26:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 02/02/2011 14:27:07
You will be lax with dscanning if you're confident your ship's unprobable and bubbleproof, so you'll miss the single wave of probes used to find the ladar you're in if they don't have the bm already, and will be killed by anything, and wish you hadn't wasted a legion huffing gas.
If you're claiming you won't be afk, you might as well run anoms or sigs and make more money with less hauling issues (ditch the scraps).

Also you seem to think a cloaky bubbleproof armour tanked t3 won't be charged down by interdictors and frigs or just decloaked by drones/unlucky with jump spawn position, and still get locked and die on a hole with a polarity timer.

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.02.02 14:49:00 - [8]
 

This has to be a f*cking troll, but Ill bite, just in case some other n00bs out there had the same idea.

A couple of points and some questions.

First of all - what the HELL does ECCM have to do with being unprobable? ECCM is defense against jamming. When someone probes you out - it has NOTHING to do with Jamming what so ever, so Im not sure why you keep referring to ECCM. Being unprobable has to do with signature radius which is a completely different thing.

Second of all - I hate to burst your bubble, but your plan is a bad bad idea. Of course you arent going to listen to this and you are going to do it anyways, but Ill go ahead and waste the characters and space in case someone else has a similar 'bright idea'

Why is it a bad idea? In order to make decent profit from Wormhole Gas (by decent profit, I define it as exceeding the amount of isk you would make spending the same time C1/C2 WH plexing, ratting, mining or missions, or other safer isk making methods), you at a minimum need to be in a C4, although that is debatable. Ive seen one or two C3's that might suffice.C5 would be better.

i) Most C3's are populated already. I live in a C6 currently. Every day when we open the static, I scan down every site and log it, and bookmark it. If I see someone running around in one of the sites, Ill try to scan them down first, if I cant, then I can simply warp to the various sites - cloaked. If I dont catch you, Ive got more than several accounts, so Ill just sit in the system long enough to distrupt what you are doing and make sure you feel so worried about being probed out that you wont make any isk.

ii) When you attempt to mine the actual Gas, you will spawn sleepers. If it's a C3, there is a chance you might survive, although I would doubt it. The Legion isnt exactly a solo-pwn mobile, and you wont have any guns in your high's. Simply moving away from the spawn in point wont work. Sleepers arent that stupid. Many of the sleepers warp scramble, and nuet and web.

iii) Combine all of this with the fact that it is very difficult to move goods in and out of a wormhole. Wormholes collapse, they decay, they are some times camped, its not that easy. So when a WH loses its connection to high sec, or low sec (if you in a C3 or above this can happen) and you only have a connection to another WH - it could be like that for a few days - what are you going to do then?

iv) This is addressed above, but Ill say it again. Gas from C1's and C2's isnt worth sh*t. Some gas from C3's can be worth a bit, but not much. Really you need C4, but ideally C5 and C6, and there is no way you would surivive C4-C6.

Just bad idea.


Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.02.02 15:04:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mithrasith
This has to be a f*cking troll, but Ill bite, just in case some other n00bs out there had the same idea.

A couple of points and some questions.

First of all - what the HELL does ECCM have to do with being unprobable? ECCM is defense against jamming. When someone probes you out - it has NOTHING to do with Jamming what so ever, so Im not sure why you keep referring to ECCM. Being unprobable has to do with signature radius which is a completely different thing.


*rolls up newspaper*

ECCM boosts Sensor Strength.
If your Sig Radius / Sensor Strength is smaller than or equal to 1.08, you're unprobable.
Ergo, ECCM helps making you harder to scan down.

*twhacks you with newspaper*

Now this ain't a troll, just curious to see what kind of nifty solo ninja things I could do in a WH.
Still, all the replies seem to be mostly saying the same, so I'll try and stick to Class 1 & 2's and run those instead.
Arkonor does spawn in Class 1/2's, I'll see about giving that a go alongside Mag/Radar sites.

Tameris Khan
Posted - 2011.02.02 15:33:00 - [10]
 

Hey genius, wtf is the point in an unprobable ship when the site you're in can be scanned down? If you're in an occupied WH all the occupants will do is get a bookmark for the site you're in from the bookmark can, warp a cloaky ship to you and tackle.

Look forward to seeing you in wspace

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.02.02 15:34:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Mithrasith
This has to be a f*cking troll, but Ill bite, just in case some other n00bs out there had the same idea.

A couple of points and some questions.

First of all - what the HELL does ECCM have to do with being unprobable? ECCM is defense against jamming. When someone probes you out - it has NOTHING to do with Jamming what so ever, so Im not sure why you keep referring to ECCM. Being unprobable has to do with signature radius which is a completely different thing.


*rolls up newspaper*

ECCM boosts Sensor Strength.
If your Sig Radius / Sensor Strength is smaller than or equal to 1.08, you're unprobable.
Ergo, ECCM helps making you harder to scan down.

*twhacks you with newspaper*

Now this ain't a troll, just curious to see what kind of nifty solo ninja things I could do in a WH.
Still, all the replies seem to be mostly saying the same, so I'll try and stick to Class 1 & 2's and run those instead.
Arkonor does spawn in Class 1/2's, I'll see about giving that a go alongside Mag/Radar sites.



Incorrect. signature radius and sensor strength are two very different things - ERGO, one has no effect on the other. Go thwack yourself with the newspaper.

Check EFT. Load up an ECCM II Omni and see what it does to your signature radius. Nothing.

Boltorano
Fourth Circle
Total Comfort
Posted - 2011.02.02 15:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mithrasith

Check EFT. Load up an ECCM II Omni and see what it does to your signature radius. Nothing.


It's the ratio of your signature radius to your sensor strength that makes you unprobable. You might want to consider doing some research on "unprobable T3s" and things of that nature before you dig your hole there any deeper.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2011.02.02 16:10:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mithrasith
Originally by: Thenoran
Originally by: Mithrasith
This has to be a f*cking troll, but Ill bite, just in case some other n00bs out there had the same idea.

A couple of points and some questions.

First of all - what the HELL does ECCM have to do with being unprobable? ECCM is defense against jamming. When someone probes you out - it has NOTHING to do with Jamming what so ever, so Im not sure why you keep referring to ECCM. Being unprobable has to do with signature radius which is a completely different thing.


*rolls up newspaper*

ECCM boosts Sensor Strength.
If your Sig Radius / Sensor Strength is smaller than or equal to 1.08, you're unprobable.
Ergo, ECCM helps making you harder to scan down.

*twhacks you with newspaper*

Now this ain't a troll, just curious to see what kind of nifty solo ninja things I could do in a WH.
Still, all the replies seem to be mostly saying the same, so I'll try and stick to Class 1 & 2's and run those instead.
Arkonor does spawn in Class 1/2's, I'll see about giving that a go alongside Mag/Radar sites.



Incorrect. signature radius and sensor strength are two very different things - ERGO, one has no effect on the other. Go thwack yourself with the newspaper.

Check EFT. Load up an ECCM II Omni and see what it does to your signature radius. Nothing.


Being probeable has to do with Sensor Strength VERSUS Signature Radius.
And ECCM effects Sensor Strength. As I said, if Signature Radius / Sensor Strength <= 1.08, you're unprobeable.
Look up unprobeable T3 mechanics if you still don't believe me.

Originally by: Tameris Khan
Hey genius, wtf is the point in an unprobable ship when the site you're in can be scanned down? If you're in an occupied WH all the occupants will do is get a bookmark for the site you're in from the bookmark can, warp a cloaky ship to you and tackle.

Look forward to seeing you in wspace


Because it makes COMBAT probes useless.
Means that anyone who wants to find me will have to through each and every site, giving me advanced warning.
Before I started this thread I wasn't aware so many WH dwellers bookmarked all their sites though.

TuHellen Back
Posted - 2011.02.02 16:53:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Thenoran
Before I started this thread I wasn't aware so many WH dwellers bookmarked all their sites though.

It's the first thing you do when you log on. Some sites will be gone and new ones may have appeared. After downtime the Reference code changes which is a pain in the ass. It means that all the existing BM's have to be confirmed either by rescanning or warping to them. Even if you are not going to use the site you still need to bookmark it just so you know what and where it is.

drinking12many
Minmatar
Nine Inch Ninja Corp
Posted - 2011.02.02 18:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: TuHellen Back
Originally by: Thenoran
Before I started this thread I wasn't aware so many WH dwellers bookmarked all their sites though.

It's the first thing you do when you log on. Some sites will be gone and new ones may have appeared. After downtime the Reference code changes which is a pain in the ass. It means that all the existing BM's have to be confirmed either by rescanning or warping to them. Even if you are not going to use the site you still need to bookmark it just so you know what and where it is.



^ Def this we always try to know what in your WH without local to help you proper intel is really the only thing youve got. Ive def been caught when not doing it and killed.. it happens. So standard practice is pretty much someone always scans down everything usually multiple times a day sends out mail compares IDs looks for new ones etc.

Tea Partier
Posted - 2011.02.02 18:53:00 - [16]
 

While way safer than running sleeper sites, the problem is that it just isn't profitable enough to justify the cost in anything less than C5/6 WH's. Then you hit the problem that sleepers spawn and you need to kill them to harvest the gas. I'd also say that most ladar sites aren't all that great, I tend to ignore Token because the gas is worthless and ordinary have 5 turret sentries that have small sigs and high dps.

As far as residents, I'd say that most wouldn't be on or be shocked to see you there harvesting gas. If I saw a Legion doing it in my WH, I would think it was a trap. Who uses a 400-500 million ISK ship to harvest gas? I see this working best in a quiet LS area where you also had a reaction POS available. Then you would be able to change out modules and maybe subsystems(if there is a base handy) or use a 2nd Legion to kill the sleepers. I'd recommend a larger hauler with a probe launcher and a cloak.

One thing you never have to worry about is someone coming in and hitting your ladar or grav sites.

Andrea Exerlauka
Posted - 2011.02.02 20:08:00 - [17]
 

Even if you are unprobable your ship will still show up on scan results, just not with 100% signal strength. It would be trivial for an attacker to scan down the site closest to you and catch you there. I'd really try to avoid inhabited wormholes.

Boreesh
Posted - 2011.02.02 20:25:00 - [18]
 

I have to echo the other posts not to do this (against MY better judgment)

If Mithrasith is not trolling then he's validation anyone can get into a WH.

If you are unscannable, then someone trying to get a hit on you will have a fairly tight scan area narrowed down already, and ladar sites are also detected by combat probes. if they miss you on the first hit, the site will certainly be close to 100%. A decent scanner will then try to get the site to 100%.

And in WH's every (dangerous) scanner is cloaky, so if they get the site down 100% then they'll be within scram range before you see them uncloak.

Malkev
Posted - 2011.02.02 20:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Thenoran
Means that anyone who wants to find me will have to through each and every site, giving me advanced warning.

Or I could just use d-scan and figure out which one of the bookmarked ladar sites you're at, warp in cloaked, BM the can you probably jetted, warp back at 20km, get right next to you, then have squad come join the fun.

Linda Flamewalker
Posted - 2011.02.03 00:24:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Thenoran


*rolls up newspaper*

ECCM boosts Sensor Strength.
If your Sig Radius / Sensor Strength is smaller than or equal to 1.08, you're unprobable.
Ergo, ECCM helps making you harder to scan down.

*twhacks you with newspaper*



This :)

Noun Verber
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.03 00:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Malkev
Originally by: Thenoran
Means that anyone who wants to find me will have to through each and every site, giving me advanced warning.

Or I could just use d-scan and figure out which one of the bookmarked ladar sites you're at, warp in cloaked, BM the can you probably jetted, warp back at 20km, get right next to you, then have squad come join the fun.


Basically this.

Skilled scanners can narrow down your location using the Dscanner to only a handful of sites so they won't need very long to find you.

ColdCutz
Gallente
Pwny Nation
Posted - 2011.02.03 01:12:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Malkev
Or I could just use d-scan and figure out which one of the bookmarked ladar sites you're at, warp in cloaked, BM the can you probably jetted, warp back at 20km, get right next to you, then have squad come join the fun.
THANK YOU!!

Beat me too it.

Dacian Falco
Posted - 2011.02.03 08:05:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dacian Falco on 03/02/2011 08:08:21
get a 2nd account in a Drake, buy insurance on it. Don't fit any modules. Park it somewhere in space. When it gets blown up, you'll know to bail out with your Legion.

T1 hauler is even cheaper, and might even bait the cloaky scanner guy out if he has drones/scram, likely not though.

Yeshmiel
Posted - 2011.02.03 08:06:00 - [24]
 

First of all, a ship can be unprobable, but don't get too confident by this ability. Secondly a cleverly bookmarked gas site can be harvested without getting aggro from the sleepers on some holes as the clouds are big enough that you can harvest and still be far enough away from the sleepers that they won't aggress. This wont work all the time but I have seen several people doing this. Thirdly if you are going to harvest don't do it in wormholes that are occupied, it will end in tragedy. I would use a transport ship with cloaky warp for hauling if you are going to do this. I am no expert but these are a few ideas I threw together.

Hathrul
Posted - 2011.02.07 14:32:00 - [25]
 

main problem is that gas just isnt worth a lot in the lower wormholes. and the gas that is is heavy as hell...if youd come in our wormhole to mine gas wed wait for you to remove those damn sigs first though and then try to shoot you. its boring work and not much income, so we wouldnt mind you doing it

wed still try to kill you though. and anyone living in a wormhole for more then a few days always has a nice set of bookmarks for all the sites. you cant hide

Kaptain Kruncher
Posted - 2011.02.07 15:53:00 - [26]
 

To the OP:

Profitable or not- who cares? Probeable or not- who cares? The point is, go have some fun. I do many things like this because it's fun. I got into scanning back before the current system- it took forever- many times your probes cost more than the loot was worth. I did it cause it was interesting. Later I did a lot of ninja gas cloud harvesting because it took a long time and you had to watch your scanner and local like a hawk. Same nowadays with current probing mechanics- I LOVE ninja mining, ninja gas cloud harvesting, exploration site running- in WH space or out, null sec or losec. Sometimes I get blown up, so what, it's fun. Save up those gas clouds- eventually get a POS and start manufacturing, I have made lots of isk.

Have fun- do it for the danger, do it to be sneaky, do it for profit- whatever. What the hell else do you play this game for?

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.02.07 17:52:00 - [27]
 

Thenoran,

ISK wise - very poor, unless you are running C5-C6 holes which might be a problem with the sleeper defenses (yes ladar sites are defended)

Doing what you described you would be found fast. It's easy. Sure your ship cannot be probed but you are in a known location. No problem. Response would then vary from WH to WH but most people would conclude that a gas mining Legion doesn't have teeth.

Could be fun though, that's the only real reason to do this.


John Miromme
Posted - 2011.02.07 22:51:00 - [28]
 

You also grossly underestimate the efforts WH dwellers will put in to get a Legion killmail.

You will most probably be scrammed and webbed by a covert ops that suddenly appear, and then die to a small gang of pvp ships. All of this will probably happen without anything appearing in your D-scan until you are pointed.


 

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