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Cunard
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.01 09:31:00 - [1]
 

Returning pilot to EvE recently (couple of weeks ago) and I have been running lvl3's and poking my nose into a few lvl4's - during which I have spotted the following behaviour:

Every so often, I will find that I am completely unable to break the tank of an NPC ship - despite taking other ships of that type apart. Note I am not talking about differently named ships that use the same model (I understand that the resists may vary there) but ships that are exactly the same.

For example, I may warp in and find, amongst the many enemy ships, are 3 praetor battlecruisers. Targeting them first as the quickest to kill I will take out 2 quite rapidly - but then the 3rd one I just cannot break - the shield will remain at about 75% and not move. If I warp out and back in again then it seems to reset and I will be able to kill them normally (sometimes may need to re-warp a couple of times).

Anyone else ever have this or am I just going mad?

Flybiere
Gallente
Intergalactic Shrimp Emporium
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:11:00 - [2]
 

What ship are you in and what guns/ammo are you using.

Also, has the third ship in question moved at all by the time you get round to shooting it?

Sorry for all the noob questions but it could help determine if this is a bug or a problem with setup/tactics.


DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:12:00 - [3]
 

Check the bounties of the npc ships. If the easy battlecruisers have for example a bounty of 80k and the last one has a bounty of 280k you know its an elite ship.

The name should also be different. Elite cruisers and battlecruisers are quite hard to kill compared to the other rats.

Sollutions:
Bring friends, change ammo to match the rats resist hole (you should do this anyway), go closer and use a short-range high dps type of ammo.


Cunard
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.02.01 10:21:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Flybiere
What ship are you in and what guns/ammo are you using.



Drake (yeh, yeh I know) using HML and T1 heavy missiles (particular type dependent upon what the enemy type is).

Range will vary - usually they have closed in on me from where I start attacking (I start at around 55Km out if I have the choice), but that shouldn't affect missiles too much (should it?). The velocity and size remain constant (roughly) which I thought was the bigger effect for missile damage. (?)

Originally by: Flybiere

Sorry for all the noob questions but it could help determine if this is a bug or a problem with setup/tactics.


Not at all - I am still waaaay down on the EvE learning curve so I would not be at all surprised if there was something basic I was missing.

Originally by: DeBingJos

Check the bounties of the npc ships. If the easy battlecruisers have for example a bounty of 80k and the last one has a bounty of 280k you know its an elite ship


Yeh I checked that out thinking I was running into elites, but I am referring to ships that all have the same bounty on them.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.01 11:24:00 - [5]
 

Could it be something like your missiles aren't really doing much and it's your drones dps that you're missing, as they're not auto-aggressing the next rats??

Jupix
Minmatar
MuroBBS United
Posted - 2011.02.01 12:40:00 - [6]
 

Well a couple of thoughts. Mind you, I don't fly a Drake so I may be wrong in most of these.

- On the basis that you're only just venturing into L4's and using T1 launchers I'm guessing you have average skills at best for that Drake. AFAIK you need pretty good skills for that ship to be any good at L4's (by which I mean beating the hard ships fast).
- I would think since HMLs are the correct size of launcher for BCs that you should do good damage against them without target painters. But since you're obviously not doing the correct damage, I'm thinking explosion velocity may have something to do with that. While the incoming spawn is MWD'ing towards you, you do normal damage, and when the last one has reached your orbit, and you start shooting, you have less sigradius to shoot at. So I'd try target painters.
- Are they using Defenders on you? That plays havoc on even battleships, I would imagine heavy missiles are so light that volleys of them are particularly vulnerable to defenders.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2011.02.01 12:44:00 - [7]
 

Haven't experienced anything like this. Sounds to me like your missile skills are low and they aren't reaching far enough in some cases. This would explain why warping out and in sometimes "fixes" it.

Train up missile projection and missile bombardment to correct it.

Arien Moyna
Caldari
Shadow Veil Industrial
Posted - 2011.02.01 13:55:00 - [8]
 

I'd say use T2 launchers and Missiles with the correct damage type for the mission (i.e. EM against Drones) and put one or two Ballistic Control System's in the lows.

I have a decent PvE Fit for you. It is very tight regarding Energy Grid and CPU. When you check out your certificates, do you have all the core certificates to standard/improved or Elite?

[Drake, FW Mission Drake]

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Small Tractor Beam I

10MN Afterburner II
Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


Hobgoblin II x5

Annoitte
Minmatar
Industrial Salvage and Excavations
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:07:00 - [9]
 

If the ships you're shooting at are all *exactly* the same (same name, same ship type, same bounty), and you're killing two out of three really fast, I'd say that not killing the third as quickly *might* be a bug. It could possibly be client-side, though. I've had plenty of hiccups before that were similar, but I haven't had these problems after upgrading my PC, and getting up-to-date drivers and OS updates.

Amaha Masane
Caldari
Avalon Advanced Research and Development
Eclectic Collective
Posted - 2011.02.01 17:27:00 - [10]
 

One other thing that might be happening is that sometimes due to lag or some other reason you client might "misreport" the actual location of an object in space, often times placing the actual position a dozen or so km from where they really are. With turret ships (particularly short range ones) it causes dps to drop to almost nothing since you may think you're in optimal when actually you're in deep falloff, missiles would be worse since the rat might not even be in missile range anymore and damage drops to zero despite slinging the things at target. Typically warping off/back fixes it.

I would say check all sources that may be causing lag (wireless router, downloading crap while playing ect.) and stop them and see if it stops. If not run the logserver and bug report it.

Frecator Dementa
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:01:00 - [11]
 

Check your logs
- Are you actually dealing damage to the 3rd ship?
- Are you dealing the same amount of damage per volley?
- Are all of your missiles hitting the target (you should have a consistent time interval between damage notifications)?

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.02.02 21:41:00 - [12]
 

Rat shield boosters/armour reps aren't dealt with in the same way as on player ships.
(I Think) Every so many seconds, the rat has a certain %age chance of their repper activating. This means that you can hit a spell where it activates every cycle for a while, and other times it doesn't activate at all.

EG angel centurion
Defenses
Shield: Every 5.00 seconds there is a 44.00% chance of a 105 HP boost

Mavnas
Posted - 2011.02.03 09:35:00 - [13]
 

There's another minor thing with missiles, but I doubt this is it: Your DPS applied to a target that you're approaching is boosted by the Doppler effect. This is due to the travel time of the missiles. The first missile volley will fire and take x seconds to hit. If you're approaching the target the next missile volley will take less than x seconds to hit. Once you stop closing range every missile volley will hit at the same rate as the one before.

This effect should be minor unless you're travelling at close to the same speed as your missiles. At the most extreme if you could travel as fast as your missiles, you could put 2-3 volleys into space and have them hit at the same time.

Other things I can think of, but this would be more of an issue with turret ships is if you get changes in velocity when enemies reach their chosen orbit distance.

Layla Ashley
Amarr
Steel-Rain
Void Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.02.03 10:53:00 - [14]
 

i never use missiles, so aren't to familiar with them. But maybe your target ships are small frigs? and while they approach you they have mwd active, so high signature. once they are close they switch off mwd and have small signature. maybe the explosion radius of your missiles is to big?

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.02.03 11:54:00 - [15]
 

Your problem is that you dont hit the target because of the range. HAML are short range weapon so thats what hapence. Even if you claim that you see that missel hit and explode on the target it is not true. This visual bug is still not fixed by CCp for an long time now. You see your missels fly far enough and hit the target by server do know that its actualy not true thats why you dont see any damage changes on the target.

You have simply need to calculate your missels speed vs fly time and then lower by 10% and it will result in your optimal range of your missels wich will hit the target.

Regards Cyb.

Corthephis Eriaggan
Caldari
Arc Lemanique
Legionnaire Services Ltd.
Posted - 2011.02.03 15:12:00 - [16]
 

About the optimal range of missiles, why do you say 10% less than the calculation flight time x speed ?

I tried to make such calculations, but for the Lv3 missions, in order to get a help dps from the drones, I maxed my range to 65kms, this is the maximum range for handling my drones (with a DLA).
Anyway my Drake isn't able to fix a target more than 72 Kms away.

Now I have a Raven, I can fire missiles for a longer range (90 Kms), but I don't see the point in it, since my ship is so slow that I never manage to go so far away from my targets, I destroy them before. Did I miss something ?

SexTrader
Posted - 2011.02.03 15:41:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Corthephis Eriaggan
About the optimal range of missiles, why do you say 10% less than the calculation flight time x speed ?

I tried to make such calculations, but for the Lv3 missions, in order to get a help dps from the drones, I maxed my range to 65kms, this is the maximum range for handling my drones (with a DLA).
Anyway my Drake isn't able to fix a target more than 72 Kms away.

Now I have a Raven, I can fire missiles for a longer range (90 Kms), but I don't see the point in it, since my ship is so slow that I never manage to go so far away from my targets, I destroy them before. Did I miss something ?




This

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.02.03 16:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Corthephis Eriaggan
About the optimal range of missiles, why do you say 10% less than the calculation flight time x speed ?



That's kind of the rule of thumb, but calculating whether a missile can hit the target or not can be a bit less trivial than that, because you have to take two more factors into consideration.

1. Missiles take time to accelerate to full speed. I usually take 0.5 seconds off from the flight time to correct this.
2. Missiles and targets are path dependent; not only you have to know the distance between you and the target, you have to compare the length of the trajectory of both the missile and the target, during the missile's flight time.

Simply put,
if (missile velocity > target velocity),
if missile velocity * (Flight time - 0.5sec) > (Distance + length_of trajectory), the missile hits.

This analysis can explain some seemingly peculiar behaviors:
=> Interceptors and Dramiels evading heavy missiles when distance is smaller than missile range. They move along the direction of the missile's velocity, or circle around to maximize the length of flight trajectory.
=> Mission rats that are moving away from you may evade incoming missiles, while some that were far away can get hit because they were moving towards it.

The actual math required to calculate the length_of_trajectory part involves path integrals, so instead I will suggest a new formula that can simplify that calculation:

corrected_missile_range
= missile speed * (flight time-0.5) - enemy speed * flight time
≒ (missile speed - enemy max speed) * (flight time - 0.5), where enemy speed is positive if it is moving away from you.

if corrected_missile_range > initial distance, you can safely assume that the missile will hit the target reliably.

Iceni
Posted - 2011.02.03 21:59:00 - [19]
 

It might simply be down to range? Some rats move away from you when you warp in, by the time you get round to the third one its moved farther away.

I haven't experienced the problem as you describe, but then I use autocannons. Sounds like you need bigger guns or maybe stack some lowslot damage/range modifiers.

Spineker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.04 06:46:00 - [20]
 

Just use the eyeball to view the target and see if your missiles fizzle out before hitting the target simple as that.

Even though the caluclator says 40km there are many times ships registering 39km don't get hit even 38 I notice this more with torps.


 

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