open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked The Most Popular Battlecruiser
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:39:00 - [61]
 

To be fair, one glance through the forums will show anyone who looks that there are 2 BC's that dominate the discussion. The Cane and the Drake. Nerfing the Drake will only make the Cane more of the PvP king than it already is.

If one want's to balance the equation one needs to fix the CPU and PG limitations of the Harbinger or increase its speed and find some way of making the myrm more a balanced ship.

As it stands the Myrm gets blasted as being one dimensional and the Harbinger hardly gets talked about at all.

Jas Dor
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:45:00 - [62]
 

I'm note sure I would say the Drake. Missiles have been through so many buffs and nerfs. I can still remember a time when the PvP Drake was a lol ship. Honestly for the long haul, I'd suggest a gunnery ship. One good missile nerf and you're looking at a bunch of wasted sps. At least with gunnery the support skills apply to a number of turret types.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:47:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Jas Dor
I can still remember a time when the PvP Drake was a lol ship.


And the people laughing were ******ed then too. The Drake is effectively unchanged in any meaningful way in recent memory. In fact, the nano change gave it a massive boost.

-Liang

Absolom Hues
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:54:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Absolom Hues on 01/02/2011 05:14:13
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Jas Dor
I can still remember a time when the PvP Drake was a lol ship.


And the people laughing were ******ed then too. The Drake is effectively unchanged in any meaningful way in recent memory. In fact, the nano change gave it a massive boost.

-Liang


People used to lol at the Drake... because most were fit the same way for PvP as they did for PvE. I do believe that the missile effectiveness was boosted at the time of the nano change, but not sure I would call it "massive".

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:19:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Absolom Hues
People used to lol at the Drake... because most were fit the same way for PvP as they did for PvE. I do believe that the missile effects were boosted at the time of the nano change, but not sure I would call it "massive".


The massive boost comes from the fact that the Drake is much improved vs small and fast enemies - which is notably a pretty important segment of the population. Remember that it used to get 0.0 DPS.

But lets see if we can back into a Drake vs Cane comparison:
People frequently argue over whether the Drake or the Cane is best today. To sum those arguments up...
- Its numerically provable that the Drake is better at brawling than all Canes that aren't aren't sporting plate+slaves (the numbers just don't lie there).
- The Cane is better at dealing with small ships (yay neuts!) and running away (just like its always been).
Implication: Drake is roughly as good as the Cane.

Recently projectiles received a big boost.
Implication: For a long time, the Drake was simply better than the Cane at everything but running away.

A long time ago, the Drake used to deal no damage to nano ships. BUT, its ability to hit non-nano ships wasn't really changed.
Implication: The Drake was better when used as a hammer to hit anything non-nano but was pretty boned if it couldn't get away from a nano ship, while the Cane was better for killing nanos and running away.

-Liang

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:26:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

A long time ago, the Drake used to deal no damage to nano ships.


Its pretty much the opposite now, the Drake being the bane of anything nano.

Its much easier to tag-team a turret ship by simply pulling range or using TD support, HMLs on the other hand tend to force a warpout.

Especially with the gaping kinetic holes that ships like the Vagabond have.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:40:00 - [67]
 

Mainly Drakes cause you can tank them easy as hell and after you get a good T2 tank you can pretty much afk fly even lvl IVs. Takes a while go get through said lvl IVs but if youre running a 1077 DPS mission spec tank (Guristas atm as I keep getting them over and over) you wont even see your shields drop below 90% most of the time lol

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:48:00 - [68]
 

I wish there was an ECM to slow down explosion velocity of any missiles from a target

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:51:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Headerman
I wish there was an ECM to slow down explosion velocity of any missiles from a target


I wish there were mid and low slots to increase it. :)

-Liang

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 07:18:00 - [70]
 

I like the unique flavor it brings to missiles. Actually I lie, I want there to be a missile velocity improvement module. Might make the Sacrilege decent.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.02.01 11:59:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
I like the unique flavor it brings to missiles. Actually I lie, I want there to be a missile velocity improvement module. Might make the Sacrilege decent.


It would help the Raven too.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.02.01 13:08:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Absolom Hues
People used to lol at the Drake... because most were fit the same way for PvP as they did for PvE. I do believe that the missile effects were boosted at the time of the nano change, but not sure I would call it "massive".

The massive boost comes from the fact that the Drake is much improved vs small and fast enemies - which is notably a pretty important segment of the population. Remember that it used to get 0.0 DPS.


A Drake still deals roughly less than 10% of its missile DPS to an interceptor, and less than 20% to a mwding frigate. So that means 100ish and 200ish point typical volleys respectively. Its not helpless, but it certainly has no where near the "smoke 3 t1/t2 frigates in less than 30 seconds ability that the cane has"

Cruise missiles still do 0.0 dps though.


Marianne O'Conner
Posted - 2011.02.01 13:12:00 - [73]
 

The way I see it, the drake is probably better in the sense that it is more vertasile.

You have the ability to give it a massive tank, somewhat gimping it damage potential. You may give it competable DPS to other BCs (in the 650-700) range, gimping its tank (though still above average BC tank) and severely hindering range and applicable DPS to fast/small targets.

All this in one boat, added with the relative ease to train, this make for one very popular ship.

Just my thoughts on the subject - and if i was forced to choose, i'd probably pick a cane, - more fun and I'm a sucker for speed. (Maneuvrability is what wins small scale combat - i think).

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 14:38:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Target Painter
I can't believe people are falling for the "Cane is better than a Drake at PvE" troll.


The guy is bitter that he posted some random bull**** a while back and got proven wrong. Ever since then he's been raging about how the epeen and efficiency people on Eve-O are all stupid and doing it wrong. I was trying to get him to buckle down and provide me with some fits so that I could show him it simply is not possible for the Cane to do a better job.

-Liang


Again, the only way to prove it is to illustrate it. I already told you the last time I posted a cane fit I was told it was incapable of completing the missions at all, which I had already done many times. And also accused of trolling for posting it.

And to say I got proven wrong is just you trolling me. Nobody posted vids of both ships doing all missions and that would be the minimum of "proof". Posting a fit so that people who have never even used it can theorycraft it is a waste of time. And again if you use one fit for every mission then you aren't even efficient in the first place.

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:42:00 - [75]
 

Quote:
Uhm, a properly fit triple rep myrm tanks that without any trouble. Even before it pops an exile booster


Rolf.

1)Boosters? are you serious? LOL
2)It tanks 703 with nanobot rigs, 3 t2 med reps, and 3 ENAM II.

While you may pimp out your myrm( lol),not may people would even consider it.

You wont tank crap the first time you get neuted.Neuts are rather common in pvp.

Quote:
Who the hell runs hybrids on a myrm? Try out some AC or Arty myrm fits since it doesn't have the hybrid weapon bonus.
for my point, it doesnt matter what you put on it. It does not by any means out perform a drake at anything except short range max dps.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 16:53:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Nobody posted vids of both ships doing all missions and that would be the minimum of "proof".


I'm sorry Cipher, but that just isn't right.

This game runs on numbers, and modeling those numbers can predict an accurate outcome if you account for all the variables. Human skill or error is the only real wildcard, and missions are so mind-numbingly predictable that you can smooth that out as well.

But since your claim is that people are commenting about ships they haven't flown, let me offer my opinion as well:

I have maximum skills for the Hurricane and for the Drake and have direct experience with each ship running L3s and L4s with my corp (mainly, because I like to mix **** up). The Hurricane, whether AC fit or Artillery fit, shield fit or armor fit, whether it has an AB or even now a MWD, is not in the same league as the Drake when it comes to missioning.

It's quite simple, and it's completely due to a few things that are very predictable in this game: Range, Tracking, and Falloff. The Hurricane needs to worry about those, and is affected by each of them significantly when missioning. The Drake does not. (Rather, the Drake needs to worry about speed and sig size, and then it doesn't need to worry about those nearly as much.)

Quote:
Posting a fit so that people who have never even used it can theorycraft it is a waste of time.


For this argument to hold water, you need to be able to demonstrate your superior knowledge of things that can't properly be modeled. I buy this argument when PVP pros say, "Look, you're getting caught up in the numbers. This is the tactic or situation you are not accounting for." When they claim those things, they back themselves up with solid and specific arguments (often peppered with biting insults, but hey, comes with the forum).

You don't need a video to back yourself up, you just need to explain what you're doing that we haven't ever thought of.

Quote:
And again if you use one fit for every mission then you aren't even efficient in the first place.


Yes, you should swap out hardeners, and occasionally weapon types depending on the mission. I think we all understand that. But you can still provide the base fit that you work with most often, and specifically the fit that you think beats the Drake on a specific mission.

I'm fine with being wrong on this subject, but you need to back up your arguments.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.02 00:02:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Again, the only way to prove it is to illustrate it. I already told you the last time I posted a cane fit I was told it was incapable of completing the missions at all, which I had already done many times. And also accused of trolling for posting it.


I personally couldn't care less. I'm sure if I suddenly decided I wanted to do a L4 mission in a Hurricane I could pimp one out and complete it. What I want an explanation for is this:
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Its also worth noting that when I say DPS I don't mean the estimate that EFT gives you, I mean the actual number that is

Total damage done / mission time in seconds


With max skills, 4 faction gyros, a full rack of 720s and faction high DPS ammo you get 541 DPS. Since you can, at most, fit two TEs, that EFT number only applies with you keeping targets from getting "under your guns" and inside of 19km. It doesn't go higher, it can only go down.

Of course, this opens the door for things like implants and combat boosters to boost applied DPS, fleet boosters for additional tank, etc. but realistically, no one who can afford to min-max like that should be flying a Hurricane for PvE anyway.

Quote:
And to say I got proven wrong is just you trolling me. Nobody posted vids of both ships doing all missions and that would be the minimum of "proof". Posting a fit so that people who have never even used it can theorycraft it is a waste of time. And again if you use one fit for every mission then you aren't even efficient in the first place.


A reasonable explanation suffices. And no, I'm not going to make a video of a Drake doing L4 missions, jesus christ, why would you even question that is possible?

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.02.02 17:43:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Quote:
Uhm, a properly fit triple rep myrm tanks that without any trouble. Even before it pops an exile booster


Rolf.

1)Boosters? are you serious? LOL
2)It tanks 703 with nanobot rigs, 3 t2 med reps, and 3 ENAM II.

While you may pimp out your myrm( lol),not may people would even consider it.

You wont tank crap the first time you get neuted.Neuts are rather common in pvp.

Quote:
Who the hell runs hybrids on a myrm? Try out some AC or Arty myrm fits since it doesn't have the hybrid weapon bonus.
for my point, it doesnt matter what you put on it. It does not by any means out perform a drake at anything except short range max dps.



You guys have obviously never run into my triple rep, triple cap injected medium neut myrm :)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.02 17:52:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Tony SoXai
You guys have obviously never run into my triple rep, triple cap injected medium neut myrm :)


Have you ever actually flown it? Triple rep + lasers/blasters is really really hard on your capacitor. Triple rep + neuts is just insanity, even with the extra cap booster. If you're wanting to show me Teh Powah, I can probably make it to Eytjangard (They've 'aken the 'obbits to Eytjangard!!) sometime tonight. Shoot me or anyone in my corp a convo. I log on ~10pm Pacific most days.

-Liang

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.02.02 18:02:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Tony SoXai on 02/02/2011 18:05:50
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Tony SoXai
You guys have obviously never run into my triple rep, triple cap injected medium neut myrm :)


Have you ever actually flown it? Triple rep + lasers/blasters is really really hard on your capacitor. Triple rep + neuts is just insanity, even with the extra cap booster. If you're wanting to show me Teh Powah, I can probably make it to Eytjangard (They've 'aken the 'obbits to Eytjangard!!) sometime tonight. Shoot me or anyone in my corp a convo. I log on ~10pm Pacific most days.

-Liang


I've flown it. Triple rep + med neut + triple cap boosters is winsauce. It's not even hard on capacitor, you can be stable at 70% even overheating everything :P and even with the mwd on.

Oh and excuse me what the hell are you talking about? I don't know any Eytjangard pardon my inexperience :P

Edit: I use small neutron blasters on it as well if you wonder.

Khon Dee
Posted - 2011.02.02 23:11:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
I personally prefer the cane over the drake.
Its faster.
You can armor tank it.
You can run a gang mod on it without seriously gimping your fit.

But overall the drake is preferred.



Maybe the drake is slower, but you can fit a command mod to a ham drake without gimping it. It's tight, but doable

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.02.03 01:45:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 03/02/2011 06:09:15

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn

(gank harbinger vs myrm)
Quote:
Uhm, a properly fit triple rep myrm tanks that without any trouble. Even before it pops an exile booster


Rolf.

1)Boosters? are you serious? LOL
2)It tanks 703 with nanobot rigs, 3 t2 med reps, and 3 ENAM II.

While you may pimp out your myrm( lol),not may people would even consider it.

You wont tank crap the first time you get neuted.Neuts are rather common in pvp.



1) Yes, you carry those on active repped myrms. Obviously. If you are not at least using a synth booster you are a moron.

2) The standard fit (2 eanms, 2x nano pump, 1x accelerator) tanks 800 dps against multifreq, 1k on heat. Without a booster. Yes, you are shooting into its two highest resists with your harbinger.

As far as neuts go, how many does your Harbinger typically have? Yea, go ahead and nuke your own cap chief, thats fine with me. Triple rep myrm takes 2 medium neuts without trouble.


Thanks for playing. Laughing


Originally by: Liang Nuren
Triple rep + lasers/blasters is really really hard on your capacitor.


You dont fit lasers or blasters on triple rep myrms, the only guns that really fit are d180 autos.

That said, you could in theory fit two medium neuts AND support them cap-wise with dual injectors alongside all your reps as long as you dont perma the MWD and drop the turrets to small size, but it doesnt really make practical sense.

Too much damage output / range lost for little practical gain, if any.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.03 04:09:00 - [83]
 

Little off topic but I didnt see the point in making a whole thread...
Why is it when Im running the above 1k+ DPS (EVEHQ) Tank in my Drake I can tank just fine like 6-8 BSes and assorted smaller ships without the shields dropping to below 80 or 90% but if I run a 1k+ DPS (EVEHQ) tank in my shiny new Rattlesnake, I see them drop below 75%, around 50% before I kill enough stuff so that the shield recharge is greater than the drain?
Is it the sig radius is larger and shouldnt that be being taken into effect with the tanking amount or is it a glitch in EVEHQ (Ive seen my share... like how it doesnt seem to include non attribute boosting implants)?

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.03 05:09:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 03/02/2011 05:13:10
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Is it the sig radius is larger and shouldnt that be being taken into effect with the tanking amount or is it a glitch in EVEHQ (Ive seen my share... like how it doesnt seem to include non attribute boosting implants)?


Probably you Drake is moving faster as well, mitigating more of the damage.

Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2011.02.03 05:19:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Richard Aiel on 03/02/2011 05:21:29
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 03/02/2011 05:19:08
Without moving in either
The mission guide for the mission I was on says not to move from warp in due to large aggro bubbles
Plus is there a huge difference between 164 and 112.8 as far as damage mitigation?

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.03 14:43:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Yea, go ahead and nuke your own cap chief, thats fine with me. Triple rep myrm takes 2 medium neuts without trouble.


So, total number whoring here, but it's something I practice (in my limited and laughable experience)...

Neuting the guy who's neuting you isn't that bad of a strategy if you have a stupid amount of cap injectors, especially if they don't have a cap injector themselves (say, against a shield cane). You lose less net cap in the long run, sap them dry early in the fight, and can tough it out cap-wise with strategic booster usage until you aren't being neuted any more.

I'd still rather fill the Myrms highs with ACs, but just sayin'.

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.02.06 09:58:00 - [87]
 

GOD FORBID A NON MINMATAR SHIP EXCELLING AT SOMETHING!


ps: yes


Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.02.06 10:28:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
I like the unique flavor it brings to missiles. Actually I lie, I want there to be a missile velocity improvement module. Might make the Sacrilege decent.


Being a short range HAC with 5 lows to tank and gank is what hurts the Sacrilege the most, and I doubt any missile mods would make that any better.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.06 11:00:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
Being a short range HAC with 5 lows to tank and gank is what hurts the Sacrilege the most, and I doubt any missile mods would make that any better.



I'd long since given up trying to armor tank the Sac and just put shield extenders on.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2011.02.06 11:44:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Being a short range HAC with 5 lows to tank and gank is what hurts the Sacrilege the most, and I doubt any missile mods would make that any better.



I'd long since given up trying to armor tank the Sac and just put shield extenders on.


Shocked

Because the Drake just isn't your style?


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only