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Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.01.31 17:09:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 31/01/2011 17:21:05
Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
The mrym is in no way superior to the drake in ability to tank. It can get more dps but at much shorter ranges.


The EHP comparison isn't a fair one in this case, as the 'uber-tanky' myrm fits are generally twin or triple armour reps, not a buffer tank.

That said, the drake is an all-around "better" ship. (But I prefer flying canes)


I dont consider active tanking to be practical in pvp except on a very few builds under a rather niche set of circumstances and the drake is far superior at pve. I can get a 985 dps omni passive tank on a drake. Best i am getting on a triple rep mrym is 703 though it does leave room for ewar( not that you would have any cap to use it run triple reps)

Buffer tanking is the best way to tank in pvp. The incoming DPS is nearly always likely to exceed your tanking ability making an active or passive tank pointless. Even if you hunt solo for solo kills you are likely to find a gang and i am not including how so ****ed you are in you run into nuets.

I like people that fit active tanks to their pvp ships though.cause i can solo them in a curse and if they are amarr/gallente i can do it sitting still, while reading the news and playing fetch with my dog.

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Lol, another brainwashed lemming. Its not as good at wormholes. At missions its faster as it has more DPS. Just because a drake can tank 1k omnidamage does not mean you need to in missions.


That is debatable. The drake doesnt need to get in range, it can hit everything from here, so you have a time factor there. Being able to get a large passive tank also means you need less tanking slots for a proper tank. The drake does selectable pure damage, Canes do selectable multiple types of damage.

In some missions, i can see the cane being faster but in others no. triple stab cane gets about 670 dps with RF EMP. But you have to practically have to sit on their windshield and get those numbers. Whereas a triple BCU drake can pump out 445 kin dps or 355 dps of all other types and it can do it at any range to about 70-75 KM. So while you put out more dps you spend more time getting in range.


Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:04:00 - [32]
 

The Myrmidon is a _better_ ship than the drake, flown properly, I'd say.

But as for more popular, drake by far, and probably 'cane before Myrm. Drake is the _easiest_ to play, and 'cane is more fun for a lot of people because most people don't like managing drones beyond releasing and telling them to attack. Plus,'cane is faster, that adds a lot to the cool factor.

And active tank does have a place in pvp, or at least the few times I've taken out anything bigger than a cruiser (i.e. something worth tanking beyond like one armor plate and an eanm) it's been the difference between winning and losing for me. Then, I'm primarily an SB guy, so possibly I'm simply not that good at it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:06:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/01/2011 18:07:09
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
The Myrmidon is a _better_ ship than the drake, flown properly, I'd say.


Then you'd be wrong. I wish it were true... but it really isn't.

Originally by: Cipher Jones

Lol, another brainwashed lemming.

Its not as good at wormholes. At missions its faster as it has more DPS. Just because a drake can tank 1k omnidamage does not mean you need to in missions.




Its worth noting that its more than just DPS that matters. Its applied DPS, and that's where the Cane just falls flat on its face.

-Liang

Thorian Baalnorn
Posted - 2011.01.31 20:08:00 - [34]
 

[
Quote:
The Myrmidon is a _better_ ship than the drake, flown properly, I'd say.
Not if you fly the drake properly. A drake can do amazing things if you know what your doing. the myrm on the other hand.Uses the two worst weapons systems in the game. hybrids are just fail all the way around. they do nothing another platform doesnt do much better. ACs apply their DPS better than blasters, beams apply better DPS at range than rails, And scorch makes rails seem like a BB gun, Double the tracking better range and slightly more dps than a similar size rail with CNAM.

Then you have drones. Drone management can be a pain. Sentries are the best sub cap drones. Otherwise you have to wait for drones to travel to and from target, have to worry about losing them/leaving them behind. If the myrm got 125 m3 it would be so much better. But then it would pretty much be a domi.

I do have a laser/shield tanked mrym i am thinking about trying out just for LOLs. 650 dps 60k omni tank.

Quote:
And active tank does have a place in pvp, or at least the few times I've taken out anything bigger than a cruiser (i.e. something worth tanking beyond like one armor plate and an eanm) it's been the difference between winning and losing for me. Then, I'm primarily an SB guy, so possibly I'm simply not that good at it.


Lets use the 703 dps omni tanked triple repped myrm i was playing with earlier. It will not tank 2 drakes, or 2 canes, or even 2 of itself. It will not tank my 760 dps gank harby So if you run into two of anything larger than a Cruiser it isnt going to tank it. And as fr as T2 cruisers go, it wont tank a curse solo( nor hit one), and it wont tank more than 2 of most t2s best case scenario. Rarely do you find 1-3 pvpers in a group. gangs usually consist of 5 or more. For ****ing around empire active tanking might work ...some of the time if you can manage to avoid proper gangs of pvpers. You start roaming in 0.0 and you might as well honor tank it as active tank it.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 20:36:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/01/2011 18:07:09
Originally by: Lost Greybeard
The Myrmidon is a _better_ ship than the drake, flown properly, I'd say.


Then you'd be wrong. I wish it were true... but it really isn't.

Originally by: Cipher Jones

Lol, another brainwashed lemming.

Its not as good at wormholes. At missions its faster as it has more DPS. Just because a drake can tank 1k omnidamage does not mean you need to in missions.




Its worth noting that its more than just DPS that matters. Its applied DPS, and that's where the Cane just falls flat on its face.

-Liang


Its also worth noting that when I say DPS I don't mean the estimate that EFT gives you, I mean the actual number that is

Total damage done / mission time in seconds


Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.31 20:40:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
(triple rep myrm) It will not tank my 760 dps gank harby


Uhm, a properly fit triple rep myrm tanks that without any trouble. Even before it pops an exile booster.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.01.31 20:49:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Rastigan on 31/01/2011 20:51:31
Originally by: Target PainterLies, damned lies and statistics. Looking at actual ships on the mail, instead of final blows:
[quote

Ships - Kills
  • 1 Drake 286044
    2 Hurricane 112954
    3 Maelstrom 70083
    4 Abaddon 53940
    5 Zealot 49313
    6 Vagabond 39153
    7 Tempest 37605
    8 Hound 35087
    9 Dramiel 28339
    10 Harbinger 26719
    11 Sabre 26650
    12 Manticore 25392
    13 Rapier 24899
    14 Megathron 23090
    15 Revelation 20528
    16 Moros 20475
    17 Scimitar 19925
    18 Nyx 18110
    19 Apocalypse 16716
    20 Thanatos 16686



Taken off EVE-Kill. Even though the entire NC swapped from Drakes to Maelstroms, Drakes still have over twice the kills of Hurricanes.


Many of these kills are probably pos mods.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:07:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Hauling Hal

Drake = 17.1 kills per ship flown
Hurricane = 14.9 kills per ship flown
Difference = 15%

Despite the popularity of Drakes, they only get 15% more kills than a Hurricane.


Or put another way:

"Justifying the popularity of Drakes, they get an incredible 15% more kills than a Hurricane."

Amazing what a couple words can do to change the perception of a statistic. You broke it down to "per ship flown," which balances out the relative popularity of the ships and looks at their relative performance instead. 15% more kills per ship flown sounds pretty damn good to me.

(Obligatory disclaimer: Leave the Drake alone. It's fine.)

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:12:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones

Its also worth noting that when I say DPS I don't mean the estimate that EFT gives you, I mean the actual number that is

Total damage done / mission time in seconds




Please post this mythical Hurricane mission fit.

-Liang

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:26:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cipher Jones

Its also worth noting that when I say DPS I don't mean the estimate that EFT gives you, I mean the actual number that is

Total damage done / mission time in seconds




Please post this mythical Hurricane mission fit.

-Liang


You use one fitting for all missions?

Please.


Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:33:00 - [41]
 

I'd say its a toss up between the Cyclone, the Prophecy or the Ferox.

Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
PonyWaffe
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:40:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Not if you fly the drake properly. A drake can do amazing things if you know what your doing. the myrm on the other hand.Uses the two worst weapons systems in the game. hybrids are just fail all the way around. they do nothing another platform doesnt do much better. ACs apply their DPS better than blasters, beams apply better DPS at range than rails, And scorch makes rails seem like a BB gun, Double the tracking better range and slightly more dps than a similar size rail with CNAM.

Then you have drones. Drone management can be a pain. Sentries are the best sub cap drones. Otherwise you have to wait for drones to travel to and from target, have to worry about losing them/leaving them behind. If the myrm got 125 m3 it would be so much better. But then it would pretty much be a domi.

I do have a laser/shield tanked mrym i am thinking about trying out just for LOLs. 650 dps 60k omni tank.


Lets use the 703 dps omni tanked triple repped myrm i was playing with earlier. It will not tank 2 drakes, or 2 canes, or even 2 of itself. It will not tank my 760 dps gank harby So if you run into two of anything larger than a Cruiser it isnt going to tank it. And as fr as T2 cruisers go, it wont tank a curse solo( nor hit one), and it wont tank more than 2 of most t2s best case scenario. Rarely do you find 1-3 pvpers in a group. gangs usually consist of 5 or more. For ****ing around empire active tanking might work ...some of the time if you can manage to avoid proper gangs of pvpers. You start roaming in 0.0 and you might as well honor tank it as active tank it.


Who the hell runs hybrids on a myrm? Try out some AC or Arty myrm fits since it doesn't have the hybrid weapon bonus.

The myrms a good mission ship, but the drake really does outdo it in almost every area.

Kneebone
K-H Light Industries
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:03:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Kneebone on 31/01/2011 22:04:38
Just a couple of points:

-The Myrm is NOT a hybrid ship. It is a drone ship with an armor rep bonus. You will see Myrms using projectile and laser weapons. Dual rep myrms often fit pulse lasers for example. Triple rep mymrs tend to be AC.

-Myrms are also capable of shield tanking and putting DPS mods in the lows, though not as good as a Drake they can out DPS it at close ranges. They can fit a comparable passive tank due to the mids/lows, but not have the same damage projection or range as a Drake.

-Cyclones are surprisingly decent if given a chance, though not as good as a Cane. The tanking bonus can come in handy in a few spots.

-What is most scarey about the Drake is that with HML's it has the same "Alpha" damage as a Cane, will not miss, and has 6 times the "optimal" range. Yes it involves flight time, but when you have 5-6 flights from Drakes hitting you at the same time you are in for a world of hurt.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:21:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones

You use one fitting for all missions?

Please.




I'm calling bull**** til you post all relevant fittings.

-Liang

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:42:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cipher Jones

You use one fitting for all missions?

Please.




I'm calling bull**** til you post all relevant fittings.

-Liang


I don't post fittings unless they are requested by someone who both needs the fit to help them and are not trolling, sorry. I also don't posts opinions on ships I have never flown extensively. That being said I have posted my hurricane mission fit here (this forum). I was immediately told that it was not able to complete several missions that it had already completed, and would have trouble completing missions it had no trouble with. *You yourself* have told me at least a half dozen times that the drake sucks at missioning, which I know for a fact it does not.

So I'm not going to sit here and play "post your fit so people can tell you why it doesn't work". Im simply going to stand behind my statement and let people who actually fly BC's judge.

And to end on that note, the myrm in fact can finish many missions faster than the (sic) overpowered drake. The people that noted this already are all +1 in my book.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.31 22:55:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
...


The Drake, compared to all the other options Caldari have, does suck. That doesn't mean it isn't the best BC for mission running. The fact that you refuse to substantiate your very unorthodox opinion is simply proof positive that you're either trolling or very ignorant.

-Liang

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 23:18:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cipher Jones
...


The Drake, compared to all the other options Caldari have, does suck. That doesn't mean it isn't the best BC for mission running. The fact that you refuse to substantiate your very unorthodox opinion is simply proof positive that you're either trolling or very ignorant.

-Liang


The fact that no-one can prove it without having each ship at all 5's and then recording every mission being run is what keeps this age old argument going (which ship is better/OP).

If you post anything that is not at the pinnacle of metagaming on the forums it will be ridiculed. Someone will read this thread, question it on vent to their corp/alliance, and get the real talk from pilots who have actually flown ships. Thats what I care about Helping one pilot think for themself and question authority. The metagamers can kiss my shiny metal ass.


Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.01.31 23:20:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: RUF993
Drake


/thread

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.31 23:24:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
The fact that no-one can prove it without having each ship at all 5's and then recording every mission being run is what keeps this age old argument going (which ship is better/OP).

If you post anything that is not at the pinnacle of metagaming on the forums it will be ridiculed. Someone will read this thread, question it on vent to their corp/alliance, and get the real talk from pilots who have actually flown ships. Thats what I care about Helping one pilot think for themself and question authority. The metagamers can kiss my shiny metal ass.




For PvE, drake will be heavy missiles. Cane will be artillery (worse dps than heavy missiles, and subject to tracking issues) or autocannons (never do full dps, constant movement between targets). Drake will warp in, sit there and kill everything from warp in, then leave.

In other words, silince please or give proof.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.31 23:29:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 31/01/2011 23:35:56
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Cipher Jones
The fact that no-one can prove it without having each ship at all 5's and then recording every mission being run is what keeps this age old argument going (which ship is better/OP).

If you post anything that is not at the pinnacle of metagaming on the forums it will be ridiculed. Someone will read this thread, question it on vent to their corp/alliance, and get the real talk from pilots who have actually flown ships. Thats what I care about Helping one pilot think for themself and question authority. The metagamers can kiss my shiny metal ass.




For PvE, drake will be heavy missiles. Cane will be artillery (worse dps than heavy missiles, and subject to tracking issues) or autocannons (never do full dps, constant movement between targets). Drake will warp in, sit there and kill everything from warp in, then leave.

In other words, silince please or give proof.


Same to you. I listed the minimum what would be required for proof.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.31 23:31:00 - [51]
 

18 Nyx 18110
19 ...
20 Thanatos 16686

I LOL'd

That's just terrible

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:44:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 01/02/2011 03:03:29
Edited by: Target Painter on 01/02/2011 03:01:24
I can't believe people are falling for the "Cane is better than a Drake at PvE" troll.

Jesus, it's not even remotely possible, the Drake just does more DPS at longer ranges with HMLs. If you can stand a minimalist tank and paying out for some faction mods*, you can have 3 BCS on a Drake and get over 500 DPS out to 75km. That's more ISK any way you slice it. Having a better tank, requiring a lower SP investment, being able to no-brainer missions, etc. all those are just icing on the cake.

More DPS, more range, more ISK, less time spent 'bearing and more time spent PvPing.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:48:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
I can't believe people are falling for the "Cane is better than a Drake at PvE" troll.


The guy is bitter that he posted some random bull**** a while back and got proven wrong. Ever since then he's been raging about how the epeen and efficiency people on Eve-O are all stupid and doing it wrong. I was trying to get him to buckle down and provide me with some fits so that I could show him it simply is not possible for the Cane to do a better job.

-Liang

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.01 02:57:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Target Painter
I can't believe people are falling for the "Cane is better than a Drake at PvE" troll.


The guy is bitter that he posted some random bull**** a while back and got proven wrong. Ever since then he's been raging about how the epeen and efficiency people on Eve-O are all stupid and doing it wrong. I was trying to get him to buckle down and provide me with some fits so that I could show him it simply is not possible for the Cane to do a better job.

-Liang


Admittidly it would be rare, but a small gang of 720 arty canes could be very effective for some situations. With good speed and alpha, the 720's could surprise alot of people

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:03:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Headerman
Admittidly it would be rare, but a small gang of 720 arty canes could be very effective for some situations. With good speed and alpha, the 720's could surprise alot of people


Sure, but not for PVE. Which is what we're talking about.

-Liang

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:24:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 01/02/2011 03:32:23
More DPS, more range, more ISK, less time spent 'bearing and more time spent PvPing.

Actually, I lied, you can have a full T2/meta4 fit and do it with WU5.

[Drake, DPS and AB Tank Drake]
Shield Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Explosion Dampening Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

[empty high slot]
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


Warrior II x5

462 missile DPS with Scourge Furies, 75km max due to targeting range, 371 DPS tank against Angels (2 exp, 1 kin), 505 against Guristas (2 kin, 1 therm), 336 against Bloods/Sansha (2 EM, 1 therm), 452 against Serpentis (2 Therm, 1 kin), 323 omni (1 em, 2 invuls). Use the afterburner and orbit to mitigate damage from torpedoes. Use DPS to mitigate as well; figure out the top damage dealers in each of all the missions and get them down quick. Naturally, killing frigs and cruisers takes longer than it should and that will probably be the bottleneck in your isk/H.

Of course, viewed holistically, this fit isn't applicable to very many; it basically requires near-maxed missile/shield skills and with skills like that you should probably be sitting in a Tengu or very near to it. Or have moved onto a CNR/Golem.

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I was trying to get him to buckle down and provide me with some fits so that I could show him it simply is not possible for the Cane to do a better job.


A full rack of 720s and 4 faction gyros can put down something like 540 DPS... but only out to it's optimal of 20km (with two TEs and a falloff rig) using faction ammo. And the less said about it's tank, the better.

Looking back at this, it appears I was addressing Liang when I was really wasn't: it's for anyone else who might have believed the fairy tales regarding a magical PvE Cane fit that does more DPS (practical) than a Drake. You can fit a full rack of 720s and a pair of HMLs, plus 4 gyros to drag your EFT number higher, but in practice you lose most of that DPS to falloff.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:30:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Headerman
Admittidly it would be rare, but a small gang of 720 arty canes could be very effective for some situations. With good speed and alpha, the 720's could surprise alot of people


Sure, but not for PVE. Which is what we're talking about.

-Liang


Oh!

Why are we talking about which one is better? The drake is way better. No need to worry about cap or speed or optimal. Just target and start shooting till the red crosses have gone away

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2011.02.01 03:47:00 - [58]
 

How much of the Drakes popularity is due to the fact that Caldari is the most popular race? I would actually like to see some stats on how many Amarr or gallente players have cross trained to the Drake or the Cane and which one they choose?

IMHO if CCP were going to nerf one, they should nerf both.

Darth Zarthinon
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:02:00 - [59]
 

If running lvl 3s with drake just pop in 2 rigors. I ran 2 rigors/ 1 purger with a similiar setup to above. Even some of the nastier lvl 3s were doable. Even with some 3/4 skills for shields and cap it was stable and killed fast enough to get the incoming dps down for the shields to hold. Especially if using T2 ammo. I was using T1 ammo with arbalest heavies and blasted through lvl 3s.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.02.01 04:20:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
How much of the Drakes popularity is due to the fact that Caldari is the most popular race? I would actually like to see some stats on how many Amarr or gallente players have cross trained to the Drake or the Cane and which one they choose?

IMHO if CCP were going to nerf one, they should nerf both.


I believe that is certainly a big factor... bu i think an equally big factor in its popularity lies with a few things
- can say 'wtfiscap?'
- lots of mids for a great tank
- 4 lows for BCUs or extra shield recharge
- long range missiles to allow it to say 'wtfisspeed?'

Myrm can't do that. Cane can't do that. harby cant do that.


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