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Circumstantial Evidence
Posted - 2011.01.29 09:02:00 - [31]

Months ago, some people said CCP's promises to address PI in a future expansion were worthless, based on a history of other failed promises and missed expectations. But here we have it: not just a few tweaks, but an overhaul of the system.

It has changed from a mind-and-finger-numbing clickfest, to... a more considered tweak-fest. It is actually interesting to play with now. It should involve choices, and be a game, not an ATM.

That said, it's still an abstract thing of pushpins, lines and numbers. The bones need more meat. I hope the team is still working on its collection of fanfest napkin concept sketches.

If you think extraction rate or depletion sucks:

1. Are you doing it in highsec?
2. Are you sucking the well dry with short cycles, and plastering extractors over a single spot?
3. Have you rechecked all your ECU links since the routing fix? I've had to go over all of these carefully, and upgraded quite a few links.

Linked picture below - I revisited this planet after 2 days of a 3 day cycle, and restarted ECUs there, with a 6 day cycle. And, I think I picked up a "nugget!" - I don't remember seeing it before. No other spot on the planet is this bright.

Nikita Warg
Probe Patrol
Posted - 2011.01.29 10:26:00 - [32]

Hi, i would appreciate if we get more advanced information, the beginners guide can always be found on a wiki.

For now what i have figured out is that planetology and advanced planetology are needed if you wish to extract a decent amount of stuff.

The planetology skill makes that colored layer more accurate, with every level the hotspots are moved around a bit and they change shape etc.
The Advanced planetology skill changed my layer map a bit more in a way that some spots that used to be white before are now gone, and others popped out.

Now the interesting part is In the survey window, in lower left corner you can see the total amount, but it looks like that is an estimate based on your layer map (its like surveying the layer rather than a planet itself), so if your planetology skills are low that map can be wrong, and also the survey can be wrong too.
Only way to be sure is to start the program, then click on ECU again, now the data should change to actual data from the planet, so you can extract less or even more than 1st was shown by survey. The better skills you have this difference will be smaller.
With no skills the data can be 50% off, or maybe even more.

However if you don't have a good skills, scatter the extractor pins around the spot you think it good enough, start the program then recheck the ECU to see what pins extract the most, simply stop the program and move others close to the hot one.

with cc upgrades 4 and consolidation 4, i think you can make the most with a lot less effort by producing 3rd tier products.
1 ECU with 10 pins routed to Landing pad (with a bit upgraded link)
8 basic factories that will reprocess the raw ore and move it to an other landing pad. (less to transport, 13k of t1 stuff x4planets a bit less than 20m3, so can be stored in 2 lp)
(if you use 6 then you can have a longer link from ECU to LP, that can help if you want to move ECU around and hunt for the hot spots)

on the 5th planet, you will need 16 adv factories that will reprocess stuff from all 4 planets (or 12 if you use 6 basic on a planet, extra cpu and grid can be used for a landing pad and silos so you can buffer more parts) and 4 advanced factories that will assemble the tier 3 product (or 3, in 12-6 setup)

Thats all from me, if i got something wrong, please dont hesitate to correct me :) i want to learn too
fly safe

Posted - 2011.01.29 10:36:00 - [33]

Mr Fallout

PI still does not work correct.

i had 20 extractors pulling noble metals, and refining to other. i was getting about 1800 units. i had 4x refinerys.

now i have 2 refinerys and 1 ecu, i dont even pull enough in to keep 2 running let alone the four i had. i am unable to route goods because i cannot upgrade link. to upgrade link i have to remove all refinerys. your PG and CPU are borked.

now SCIENCE section of forum: we have complained enough without any dev or GM giving us an answer since PI changed.

you changed it from a click fest to a click and drag fest. you may want to also do some reading on astrogeology !! and geology.

all of my 5 planets have been messed up totaly, and all you say is meh we kinda messed up a little, we intended it to be like this.

just tell us the real truth, you stealth nerfed PI !!

Posted - 2011.01.29 12:03:00 - [34]

Originally by: Vertigo Ren
I have a robotics setup on a plasma planet, I could extract all four resources with two, two, three and four extractors to cover each resource. I had room to spare on the grid and cpu and not even a maxed out command center.

With these changes, I had to upgrade the command center. I can place the four extractor heads, but they must remain very close to my starport, and I can only have one extractor per resource. The links could only be very short between the heads and starport otherwise I'd overburden the command center. Even this nearly breaks the command center. This means that I can't reach the same resource deposits that I could before. (meaning I could have really long links before)

I like the new control system but it seems like you guys forgot to adjust/scale the grid and cpu availability that goes along with the new units. I'm doing far far less production under much much greater power requirements. :/

Or you could do the intelligent thing and mine and stockpile two mats at a time . . . Rolling Eyes

I swear, no creativity.

Posted - 2011.01.29 13:38:00 - [35]

I see the UI is STILL in the stoneage for the ECU.
DOES any of the PI designers actually do PI on a regular basis? (aka months running like other players on TQ)

Please prioritize a fix for the ECU UI.
Problem is simple :

You need a quick reference on the avg amount & total amount extracted for each running ECU. Why?
- Because you made it in such a way that only by activating the program you're given the correct number.
- Because of multiple planets with different ECU lengths needing a quick visual confirmation of numbers when doing your PI round check.

Now the ONLY WAY to access those numbers are by running the SURVEY which :
- Slowly brings up the graphs
- Slowly brings up the heat map (with potential to screw up with some graphics glitches and whatnots)

WHY in heaven's name didn't you put those numbers on the ECU pop-out window?
The "Current Cycle Output" info in that window is almost useless due to the buffering and variable hourly cycle output.
Either add to it or replace it.

Budsin Adar
Posted - 2011.01.29 16:14:00 - [36]

Well it took me some time to figure out the new planetary set ups. Since no information was told or at least i could not find it with all the small print. But i got them to work.LaughingBut i was shocked getting more then 1 drilling hole from it and then could not do what i wanteed but its different, I guess its like EVE when it started manual findinds of stargates SmileI liked the old way was easier to understand but i guess they call it progress. But i never got my ISk back from having to put up new ones why?Rolling Eyes

Galactic Rangers
Posted - 2011.01.29 16:39:00 - [37]

give us a power plant structure that increases grid at the cost of a huge amount of CPU.... least then the CPU actually gets used and i get some valuble Grid that i always seem to be short of

Posted - 2011.01.29 18:50:00 - [38]

if you change the system to make it take 3x as long to get the same output out - that is a significant time nerf.
I also am unsure if that was intended.

Posted - 2011.01.29 18:57:00 - [39]

Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
give us a power plant structure that increases grid at the cost of a huge amount of CPU.... least then the CPU actually gets used and i get some valuble Grid that i always seem to be short of

Indeed, that would be much needed balancing. Right now most, if not all, PI set ups are limited by Power Grid, while CPU is always abundant. Which, for example, makes Launchpad easily preferable to Storage in almost every situation.

Circumstantial Evidence
Posted - 2011.01.29 21:24:00 - [40]

When selecting an ECU, viewing or modifying an ECU program, it would be helpful if all of that ECU's lines and extraction heads were highlighted in a different color.

Palpatine III
Posted - 2011.01.29 21:58:00 - [41]

Looks like CCP Omen has decided to sit this one out. How about answering some questions regarding resource depletion mechanics, or about how extraction rates were nerfed when compared to PI pre-Incursion?

[Sarcasm]Thanks man, your team did a bang up job![/Sarcasm]

Louis deGuerre
Posted - 2011.01.29 23:39:00 - [42]

Not that I really care but
* Networks belonging to different players does not affect each other directly
* The only way two players affect each other is indirectly via the depletion layer
* There is no extractor head overlap between heads from different players ECU's
this is just silly.
Like any other activity in EVE it should be possible to mess with other players.

Posted - 2011.01.29 23:52:00 - [43]

Depletion rates are over the top.
I set a 4 day program running so that I wouldn't run into the problem of having to destroy my setup and move it all the time and now the area is yellow/green after one run. I also deliberately didn't build on one of the hot spots to avoid this problem.

You need to change the system so that hot spots give considerably more output but deplete and move rapidly for the people that want to use short cycles and move their setup and have the normal areas much more stable so that people who are prepared to run longer cycles (3-4 days) don't need to move their setup more than once a month.

Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.01.30 03:08:00 - [44]

hmmm... fabs production time could be halved tbh.

maybe that would adress to some buffer overrun issues I sometimes experience while extracting stuffs.

Galactic Rangers
Posted - 2011.01.30 04:06:00 - [45]

ok after a little more thought, some things that need to be implimented/changed

Power Plants: different types for different planet types ie: lava planets would have geothermal power plants. powerplants would require large ammounts of CPU in exchange for a boost in power grid which i think alot of people would very much appritiate

Larger Storage Silos: one thing i never understood is why a launch pad would have TWICE the storage space of a DEDICATED storage facility, and when extracting large amounts of resources quickly, a larger ammount is needed, either a larger base silo or make a second tier of silo.

planetary network interact: the ability to create a link between industry networks on the same planet to exchange resources or even just purchase them from your neighbour , have a built in system to allow the exchange of goods between players with the use of some kind of contract for varius periods of time ie 1 week 2 weeks 1 month 6 months and 1 Year, penalty clauses can be made between the 2 entitys or possably more for breaking the contract early or being unable to supply the agreed resources

in addition to the reguler PI industry system i would veyr much like to see the implementation of a Civil sector with the possabuility of makng an income from tourisum or simply just creating a nice place to live or creating a slave colony to increase productiveness of your industry, which tbh i thought was going to be the case when PI was announced and of course after that tyrannis teaser trailer ( you know the one CCP >_< )

Naga Tokiba
Posted - 2011.01.30 11:18:00 - [46]

Team PI - You have created a great way to upgrade command centers. Could we please have the same way when upgrading links !

I allso miss being able to move more extractor heads at the same time.

Posted - 2011.01.30 20:14:00 - [47]

I would really like to see how much time remains for the current programs I have running on my planets through the science and industries tab. Right now, I have to open each ECU on each planet seperately, which is bad.
In addition, the routes show what is routed through tmem, and how much m is used up for that. But the numbers m are per hour ones, whereas the materials numbers are based on the cycle times for the liked facilities, i.e. 30 minutes for basic industrie facilities. Thats confusing.

Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.01.31 01:41:00 - [48]

after fiddling with PI for a bit since patch, and in addition to the cycle time cut on fabs, I must say that either link cost is cut by half, the m3/h limit doubled or both.

making storage cheaper on grid and holding twice of the spaceport would be great too.

ECU's are so efficient atm that I either must use 2-4 heads or use 14-day cycles so that I can actually not run out of space nor link capacity.

Posted - 2011.01.31 03:06:00 - [49]

Double clicking on a planet needs to STOP GOING TO YOUR COMMAND CENTER.

It's pointless. The command center may as well not exist. It does nothing, nothing is hoooked up to it.

You want to focus on your extractors/storage/processors when double clicking.

Or, at least do nothing. But for God's sake stop making a double click whip you to the other side of the planet from where you are focusing on the ECU to look at your command center.

Best of all: let us drag the command center around. Now that we have to move our colony around to chase hotspots, this seems very helpful.

Posted - 2011.01.31 07:37:00 - [50]

hello , yes this is great what you have done but i fear im losing a bit in the process, see i bought over 100 mil worth of them command centers and had them in my hangers they seem to be all converted into these basic ones that only cost about 80k each ? now when i places these all ready upgraded ones on a planet(well they where before the system changed them into what we use now) i still have to pay for them to be upgraded? im i missing something here?.im out like what 1420000isk on each unit and still have to pay for it to upgrade again if im wrong ccp please fill me in

Posted - 2011.01.31 12:07:00 - [51]

Originally by: rpriebe1979
hello , yes this is great what you have done but i fear im losing a bit in the process, see i bought over 100 mil worth of them command centers and had them in my hangers they seem to be all converted into these basic ones that only cost about 80k each ? now when i places these all ready upgraded ones on a planet(well they where before the system changed them into what we use now) i still have to pay for them to be upgraded? im i missing something here?.im out like what 1420000isk on each unit and still have to pay for it to upgrade again if im wrong ccp please fill me in

Check your wallet, look for a deposit from a GM, should explain where your refund for them is ;), least that was the case for my measly 2 i had stored.(my 2 was in a corp hangar so the deposit ended up in the corp wallet)


Steph Wing
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.31 12:14:00 - [52]

I like how it took a whole expansion to fix the last expansion's main feature.

Great work, CCP, but frankly PI should have been like this back when it went live. Ace damage control, but still terribad game design.

Ishina Fel
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.31 14:30:00 - [53]

Edited by: Ishina Fel on 31/01/2011 14:36:08

Dear Team PI,

I really like the changes, but I'm observing odd behavior with Extractor Heads and the Heat Map. I haven't submitted a bug report yet, because I don't know how to reproduce it.

Let's say that here are several minor hotspots in range of my ECU. These hotspots may move a bit over time, deplete and refill, a nugget may appear or disappear - all this works well, and it requires me to come back every day and adjust the position of the Extractor Heads. That's when I noticed this behavior by pure chance.

Let's say I have 4 Extractor Heads on one or more hotspots, nicely in the white center. None of them overlap. Now, chances are that if I move one Head away from a hotspot to a specific spot nearby, the total resource intake shown in the ECU will increase, sometimes by a large amount. I sometimes need to blindly move the Head around a bit to find a good spot, but I have had instances of moving an Extractor Head away from a white hotspot into the black middle of nowhere and seeing total resource intake (the sum of all 4 Heads) increase by as much as 15%-20%.

Okay, I said to myself, I have Planetology 5 and Adv. Planetology 4, so only 9 out of 10 possible levels. Clearly the Heat Map is wrong and the actual hotspot is elsewhere. I then proceeded to move more Extractor Heads over to where I detected that large spike. But no - doing so vastly decreases total output. Suddenly, every Head behaves exactly like I expected, bringing maximum output only smack-dab in the white hotspot center indicated by the Heat Map. Also, oftentimes the mysterious spikes are further away from any actual hotspot than they should be, if Planetology really was the culprit, because I do have 9 out of 10 levels and therefore near-perfect scanning.

This means that the Heat Map is correct after all, but I still get this effect that with one single Extractor Head I can move away from the others at random and get increased total yields.

Five of my planets do this on a daily basis, the sixth has never shown this effect at all.

What gives? Confused

Zaphri Camaro
Posted - 2011.01.31 16:32:00 - [54]

1. After setting up 10 planets in .1 systems to try to supply a couple of corp pos's, this new system totally sucks. Way too much hauling daily to make P2 ande P3 products. Instead of hauling once every 1-3 weeks, it needs to be done daily. I've already lost 2 Occators under the old system.

2. My only question is, can I get my 2,467,582 skill points back?

3. Seems like an Epic Fail!

Posted - 2011.01.31 17:36:00 - [55]

- Remove PI completly
- Give me back my skill points

Posted - 2011.01.31 18:02:00 - [56]

Originally by: Moraurah
- Remove PI completly
- Give me back my skill points

I also would love if I can get my PI SP back...

Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:11:00 - [57]

Dear PI Devs.

I am making this post in hopes that PI receives the response it has deserved since Dec 26th when you guys stopped replying to the test server thread and all of the problems raised there that have since gone unanswered.

To begin with a simple thesis, the current state of PI is unacceptable to nullsec mass producers who work to set up genuinely efficient colonies.

I live in 0.0. I produce POS fuels. With the new PI, my production of simple p0-p1 has been cut roughly 20-30% when that seemed to not be the intention of the PI changes. Outside of nerfing p3 production on one planet you have severely damaged p1 production on one planet compared to what it used to be.

My first question to you is why? Why was a nerf like this necessary when the primary things that were asked for were UI improvements? Why did you feel the need to severely impact production when you explicitly stated that was not the intention here

Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Originally by: Naradak
Are the current output rates pretty much what they will be when this is implemented?

I belief they are unless we ****ed up copying some static data. It's should be more than last iteration of the new ECUs but should be almost equivalent to current TQ iirc.

Pre patch, on a 0.0 planet without depletion or ECUs it was entirely possible to set up an efficient colony which extracted slightly more than 1.5 million p0 per 15 hours (3 five hour cycles) which fed into 10 processors which required approximately 1.44 million p0 to be running 24/7. The overflow allowed you to miss your cycle timing and still ensure your basics ran continuously, and because resources were (mostly?) static you did not have to factor large link costs in and could afford 10 each processors and extractors.

Post patch, the equilibrium I have reached on the same planet is a maximum of eight extractors and eight to nine heads on the ECU. This reduction in both extraction and production capacity is absolutely necessary to allow the long primary link for the ECU to move around while still filling the maximum number of processors and keeping them running 24/7.

That is the goal of efficient PI. To find the equilibrium where you can fit as many processors on a single planet as possible, and keep them all running 24/7. That number has dropped 20%. A 20% nerf was not asked for and from all the dev responses I've seen is not only unwarranted but flat out against the stated intentions of the PI update.

Further. Depletion is a serious problem. Depletion mandates that you must either place the number of processors you can support on the depletion layer with cycles (4, 5 at most but probably not) or you move your colony and ECU around a large amount. However, because of link cost this makes PI on any planet with a large radius practically unworkable. Gas planets are not worth even looking at anymore, I have endeavored to find worlds under 4500km radius just to keep the power grid down on that massive link which allows my ECU to move to effectively cover more than one concentration.

Ignoring the offensiveness to realism that I have drained a significant portion of a planet's resources where I am the only local extractor in a little over a week's time, the moving hotspots and depletion mechanics for those of us who want to sustain anything close to our previous p1 production mean that more money must be sunk into moving colonies, moving heads, and hoping that depletion will continue to work.

This needs to change.

Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.31 18:14:00 - [58]

Edited by: Onibrak on 31/01/2011 18:20:17

My current extraction rates with depletion hover between 1.1 and 1.2 million p0 while I still have some red somewhere to extract. That isn't going to last a ton of time. A dev directly stated, before you stopped replying in the test thread, that the intention was not to muddle supply chains and that extraction rates would be fairly close to live standards when this patch was released. This has not happened and needs to.

Depletion needs to have it's time factor increased by at least 100. It should require multiple people stacking extractors on the same spot to deplete it significantly. Changing from white to red over the course of a few weeks and staying red would have been perfectly acceptable. Changing from white to yellow and green over the course of a few days, moving to a new spot and doing it all over again is not. The current depletion rates screw the dedicated PI player in a market that is already a heavy isk sink (considering that POS fuels, the primary PI moneymaker, are destroyed upon use).

Links also need to be looked at. When you gave us a PI system that encouraged static, hunkered colonies having links cost more on a planet with a bigger radius was acceptable. Now that we must move the ECU a significant distance and now that sitting your colony between two massive hotspots so that you can drain one when you've depleted the other is a forced strategy to remain even a fraction as productive as before, links need to cost based on the radian measurement on the surface of the sphere with no regard to planetary diameter/surface area. This is necessary in the age of the ECU. It is unrealistic, but so is mining out a tenth of the surface of a planet 4300 km wide in a week.

There also needs to be a special link which costs the same as standard but is capable of handling all ECU capacity without significant upgrading. Make a link upgrade option which requires isk instead of additional power grid or CPU that recognizes a link from the ECU to another structure and allows p0 to flow uninhibited down it without capacity issues, need for further upgrades, etc. Allow us to create long links for our ECUs which do not cost 800+ off our powergrid on small planets.

Depletion needs to change. The current rates are unacceptable, and I ask that both math and justification be given for this change. CCP, I am relatively new to your playerbase. I come from MMOs where transparency in math and functions is a virtue, and where even when the devs lie they at least talk to give the players something to go on. You've been silent on depletion for over a month now. It's time to start talking. Or it's time to start reverting, give PI what they originally asked for, the previous system with a simple "restart all extractors for x timecycle" button in the UI.

Posted - 2011.01.31 19:12:00 - [59]

New PI has many short comings.

-Why does double clicking focus on the command center? Why does the planet auto focus on the command center? Command center does nothing and is pointless. It should focus on an ECU instead.

-The extremely high power cost of ECU has made doing P3 chains on a single planet very hard. In fact, extracting more than one resource on a planet has gotten much more difficult. Was it intentional to remove the self sufficient 'chains'? These were in terms of output less optimal than other setups, but required less baby sitting from a player, giving pilots options as to which setup suited their needs better

-Depletion seems much too great. I'm running 23 hr cycles and even in a couple days the spots are shrivelling up

-Moving your base and setting it up again to chase hotspots around is ludicrously too complicated, no one is going to do it. It takes a lot of time to set up routes and get all the schematics re-installed, etc.

Why not just let us click and drag the colony around the surface, if we're going to have to run around the planet chasing down ephemeral hotspots

-Link costs for the ECU are rather silly. Why do we have to upgrade it so often? It's annoying to have to upgrade the link for the ECU 3 to 4x as soon as I put it down. Why can't I just choose to build a link that will handle all that traffic in the first place? When we have to move ECU's around to chase down hotspots, the link costs become prohibitive very quickly. Hence you have to move your whole base so a storage unit is very near the ECU.

Lord Viziam
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:27:00 - [60]

I have to echo other posts here. While I can appreciate your desire to remove the PI botting and the clickfest mechanics that made that possible, I really think you need to revisit the depletion algorithms. I was under the impression that if you pull from one part of the planet, a hotspot will grow somewhere else on the planet. We are not seeing that on our 0.0 wormhole system. The whole planet is slowly dieing from many white hotspots to mainly red/orange and soon yellow/green/blue. Please check the depletion mechanics and make sure that the regeneration is working. If things keep up at this pace, we will be abandoning the wormhole we live in because our planets will be DEAD!

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