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47akahitman
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:22:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Cresalle
Edited by: Cresalle on 28/01/2011 14:56:41
The hisec incursions have some serious problems that make them not very fun.

First of all CONCORD is getting in the way of incursions being completed. Whether they're doing it on purpose or not, people in the rep chain are repping rats and shooting fleet members. Being that hisec is populated by noobs this is quite simply inevitable. I recommend a simple modification that can solve this problem:

When you are repping a target in empire and they go GCC your reps should shut off automatically. If you feel like suicide then you can turn them back on.

As it stands CONCORD is killing almost as many people as the sansha and it's really making it ridiculous to try to run the sites since a single person can destroy a whole fleet. Add to this that the already inadequate rewards are cut by 30% in hisec and things start to seem ridiculous. I mean come on, why would CONCORD be more eager to get an incursion kicked out of Amamake or EC-P8R than they would be to get an incursion kicked out of Jita?

The reward mechanic is poorly thought out and utterly broken. Right now people are running incursions for the novelty value, but when that runs out I can't see why anyone would bother with them apart from large groups swamping them with giant fleets just to get them out of the way.

You can go into a vanguard site with a 10 man fleet and start working it, but then an 20 man fleet can come in and wipe it from under you. Since the oversized fleet did the most damage they are the reward candidates, and since their fleet is oversized nobody gets a reward. I agree with the existing fleet-size ratios. Those should remain as they are. Oversized fleets should get jack **** and possibly an eve mail telling them that they suck. On the other hand the obvious fix of making the smallest eligable fleet get the reward would be gamed immediately. Maybe the only-one-fleet mechanic should be reworked.

Additionally the risk/reward ratio is very much under-par. C4 sleeper anoms are far easier than vanguard sites (4 proplerly fit tengus can rip up a C4 anom and fight off interlopers very effectively) and offer exponentially higher profit ratios.



luulz 4 tengus? for c4? 2 are enough

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:24:00 - [152]
 

I noticed that once the staging area was cleared in Raneilles very early on day one, no sansha spawned there again. Even after the incursion was back to 100%, so everyone went back to mining. Working as intended?

Kelkam
Posted - 2011.01.29 22:47:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Kelkam on 29/01/2011 22:48:43
Originally by: Rykuss
I noticed that once the staging area was cleared in Raneilles very early on day one, no sansha spawned there again. Even after the incursion was back to 100%, so everyone went back to mining. Working as intended?


Confirmed.

EDIT: er... Not confirmed if "working as intended", just that everyone went back to mining.

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.29 23:08:00 - [154]
 

I haven't read all the replies but I just want to say that I think they are just fine. I've heard a lot of people whining about how difficult they are, etc. etc., but they're not any more difficult than anything else if you have the right group setup. They require good communication, teamwork, and planning to complete and personally I think that's all we could ask for to make it a unique, fun, and challenging part of eve. I personally wouldn't change a thing.

-Feral

Cresalle
Posted - 2011.01.29 23:29:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Cresalle on 29/01/2011 23:29:55
Originally by: 47akahitman

luulz 4 tengus? for c4? 2 are enough


Too frakkin slow.

Cresalle
Posted - 2011.01.29 23:34:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Ovella
Yes, it'd be good to get a warning that you about to rep a criminal when he does something wrong in the process of being repped, but that was "broken" for ages and was pointed out to devs on sisi, so deal with it. EVE was never intended as fair place (it's not like noone can get in some 4/10 in noobship and steal faction loot - why this should be different?).


So you're saying that it was a problem on sisi and they didn't fix it, so now that it's live on TQ they shouldn't fix it?

And what the hell does this have to do with people stealing loot? Is anyone even complaining about looters?

tasman devil
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2011.01.30 01:19:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Cresalle
Edited by: Cresalle on 28/01/2011 14:56:41
The hisec incursions have some serious problems that make them not very fun.

First of all CONCORD is getting in the way of incursions being completed. Whether they're doing it on purpose or not, people in the rep chain are repping rats and shooting fleet members. Being that hisec is populated by noobs this is quite simply inevitable. I recommend a simple modification that can solve this problem:

When you are repping a target in empire and they go GCC your reps should shut off automatically. If you feel like suicide then you can turn them back on.

As it stands CONCORD is killing almost as many people as the sansha and it's really making it ridiculous to try to run the sites since a single person can destroy a whole fleet. Add to this that the already inadequate rewards are cut by 30% in hisec and things start to seem ridiculous. I mean come on, why would CONCORD be more eager to get an incursion kicked out of Amamake or EC-P8R than they would be to get an incursion kicked out of Jita?

The reward mechanic is poorly thought out and utterly broken. Right now people are running incursions for the novelty value, but when that runs out I can't see why anyone would bother with them apart from large groups swamping them with giant fleets just to get them out of the way.

You can go into a vanguard site with a 10 man fleet and start working it, but then an 20 man fleet can come in and wipe it from under you. Since the oversized fleet did the most damage they are the reward candidates, and since their fleet is oversized nobody gets a reward. I agree with the existing fleet-size ratios. Those should remain as they are. Oversized fleets should get jack **** and possibly an eve mail telling them that they suck. On the other hand the obvious fix of making the smallest eligable fleet get the reward would be gamed immediately. Maybe the only-one-fleet mechanic should be reworked.

Additionally the risk/reward ratio is very much under-par. C4 sleeper anoms are far easier than vanguard sites (4 proplerly fit tengus can rip up a C4 anom and fight off interlopers very effectively) and offer exponentially higher profit ratios.

Agreed ...

High sec should really use some tweaking, like salvaging another man's NPC wreck should be considered stealing, etc.

Incursion is tough as hell when not prepared (and even if prepared). You have to pull off the entrance exactly right, have to change targets exactly right and rep up exactly right... and that is a tall order for the lot.

And the rewards are... not really satisfying.

ps:
Right now high sec is populated by noobs and grievers... and it's UGLY! Evil or Very Mad

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:10:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Techno36
I completely agree with the idea of giving us a little more time before getting locked ...


One thing that really needs to be emphasised in any form of PvE intended to resemble PvP, is that any encounter where the attacker has to load grid places the defender at the advantage. PvE types will spend hours working on strategies, they'll come up with methods that work in terms of keeping ships alive until the logistics get established.

Delaying the initial attack by any length of time will trivialise these encounters.

Similarly, the reduction in sansha gains was absolutely ridiculous - the first three hisec sites have been cleared out before the weekend was finished. This means the process of repelling the Sansha incursion is too easy.

My main complaint with the Incursion expansion is that the difference in difficulty between "scout" and "vanguard" sites is far too high. I would urge CCP to consider giving some kind of reward for belt rats, and increasing the difficulty of "scout" sites so they are difficult to solo in e.g.: a T2 fit HML tengu.

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:23:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Zeeawk

A) Fix the HQ sites so they de-spawn and reward properly.



This is one of the easier to spot plex spawning bugs.
We've been trying to get this one fixed in FW for over a year.

Hopefully now that Incursions players are also experiencing the same broken spawn/despawn mechanics it might get looked at.


Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:26:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Rykuss
I noticed that once the staging area was cleared in Raneilles very early on day one, no sansha spawned there again. Even after the incursion was back to 100%, so everyone went back to mining. Working as intended?


This is the other part of the broken FW plex spawning mechanics.

Within a few hours after downtime spawning breaks down completely.

Zemkhoff
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:28:00 - [161]
 

I can see what they are doing having super-rats on the gates in null with respect to making life more difficult for the established alliances there, but the idea wasn't well thought out to begin with. In fact, the reverse is true when it comes to making life for alliances harder.

The NC-style renter alliance that can bring 40+ to clear out incursions won't have problems with super-rats. Others trying to bring a gang of less than 10 to pick off those same ratters will however.

I can see that CCP wanted pvp to happen in the incursion site, but most solo and small-scale roamers would be stupid to go there when they have to deal with much larger numbers, lots of reps and the randomness of the NPC aggro.

In other words, if there was going to be any extra pvp because of incursions, it was going to be on the gates leading to the incursion. Either camping for the incursion fleet or setting up sling bubbles for stragglers. But that's pretty much not going to happen.

So in a strange sort of way, the ratters are actually more safe now short of a similar sized fleet dropping on them.


McCRAZY
Posted - 2011.01.30 02:32:00 - [162]
 

Brilliant so far, given the relatively small corp i live in the chance to make good isk for once as a group in low sec aswell as get some really great pvp fights has been welcome. Definetly a challenge which is good ( our 10 man gangs are able to run the vanguards which is the way it should be ). It will be interesting to see if there are any groups large enough and skilled enough to stop the incursion in joas. Watched red allaince try and run the headquaters sites with a 100 man gang in a bumbling 0.0 manner and they paid for it with their losses to the npc's. Definetly requires some smarter thinking from players which is always good, not just a pile more drakes and bs in attitude. Overall, good job ccp

Jason1138
Posted - 2011.01.30 03:11:00 - [163]
 

the rewards need to be revamped and tbh i think the regen meter needs to be turned up more than it is now. maybe not to where it was but more than now. for sure the fact that no one gets anything if they're not in the winning fleet is just acting as a disincentive for people to even mess with sites that have been partially cleared


also NO ONE does the mining sites, at all. Every fleet i'm with, they just skip them, don't even give them a serious though. they should be changed to make them pay more LP or to make them able to be run with frigs or just modified some how so that people can find a reason to do them because as of right now they're just seen as a massive pain and not much more

if you could do them in AF's or in t1 cruisers or something without logi at least those guys would have a reason to fool with them, and could run something while everyone else runs the other vanguards. or make them pay twice as much and people would do them. or make the ore a smaller amount so you could do it in non mining ships. i dunno, just seems like it needs to be looked at on one end or the other


Silent Dodger
Bad Robot Inc.
Red Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.30 04:07:00 - [164]
 

Let's talk about lowsec and 0.0 incursions.

First of all, i must say, that there is completely NO interest for 0.0 alliances to attend them. They give no profit, no high value loot, and no

salvage.

If sansha incursions were meant to be something interesting - they'r not. Our alliance tried to eradicate the incursion in Kenabonala system (forgot the

const name). We have spent 4 hours killing sansha, and got bored to hell. Our fleet was 130-140 guys, and all we managed is to get incursion to 70%

efficiency (then i'v just said **** it, let's go home). Maybe we did it not the way it meant to be ("just burn them all" tactics), but, well, there was

no profit anyway. For comparison, it takes like 30 minutes to kill 300 PC battleships, from which you get loot and lulz :)

Let's be honest. Noone except big enough alliances (like 0.0 alliances, or militia guys) will go to lowsec. Noone will bother. Because A) there's a

pretty big chance that you will be killed by the same 0.0 alliances (free targets from like 10 jumps from a nearest bridge is a really interesting

opportunity). B) No profit (and it comes out of point A)

When we went after that low sec incursion our goal was simply to get an sansha SC BPC. That thing is rather interesting to many in 0.0 alliances. Tho, it doesn't drop in 0.0 space. So what's the point of fighting sansha in 0.0 space ? I'd better go re-rout bridges than spend half of my day killing NPC (my fleet lol'd at me calling primaries. That was embarrasing.)

So my thoughts are. 1) Make sansha ragain control slower. 2) Give us salvage from sansha ships, at least in lowsec and 0.0 3) Make the more difficult sites drop % faster (for example, any beacon in Vanguar will drop like 3%, and in HQ it should be like 7-8%. Doesn't matter if it will be much more difficult).And a fleet of 100 guys should be able to complete ANY incursion in HQ for not more than 40 minutes. 4) Make Slaves drop some tasty loot (like x-type things).

And, of course, make SC BPC drop in 0.0. Otherwise noone will bother to take it out. (btw, i hope the drop chance is 100% in lowsec, otherwise you'll all burn in hell).


And, btw, is there an opportunity to ask GM to attend to such events in lowsec, for advices and feedback ? We will try again, soon, so i think it would be interesting for CCP to watch us do it.

Cornullus Rage
Posted - 2011.01.30 04:16:00 - [165]
 

This was a bad idea. I haven't been killed by a lo sec gate camp in over a year, but have had my butt handed to me twice by these stupid gate rats. This is nothing like PVP and feels more like a bad joke by CCP. Feedback is this sucks. No one in 0.0 of lo sec wants to do this. You might have a few carebears that are all a twitter about it but by in large most PAYING players hate it.

Cornullus Rage
Posted - 2011.01.30 04:21:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: FeralShadow
I haven't read all the replies but I just want to say that I think they are just fine. I've heard a lot of people whining about how difficult they are, etc. etc., but they're not any more difficult than anything else if you have the right group setup. They require good communication, teamwork, and planning to complete and personally I think that's all we could ask for to make it a unique, fun, and challenging part of eve. I personally wouldn't change a thing.

-Feral


Sounds like a true carebear...Sad

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.01.30 05:06:00 - [167]
 

I would like there to be a wider range of less difficult and less rewarding sites that newer players and people with no PvP experience can do to learn the strategies needed for the more advanced sites and to be able to contribute in some way to the battle. I know that many in my corporation would like to be able to participate but we simply cannot field the kind of advanced ships that are needed (particularly logistics) and cannot afford to be repeatedly vapourised in order to learn some of the strategies.

Octavian Gaius
Posted - 2011.01.30 06:15:00 - [168]
 

What did the sub-capital PVP pilot get this expansion. Be honest - a new face, rockets semi-fixed. The Sansha Incursion maybe be shiney today but in a few weeks they will be just something else that is farmed for ISK. The big O.O alliances are the winners. They are the only ones able to build and field these OP super-carriers. Everything from Sansha Super-Carrier BPC drop to the capital ship modules in the Concord LP store smacks of the DEVs taking care of their BFFs in O.O. Smacking of the DEVs take care of themselves.

A new T3 frigate would have done more for PVP, industry, and small gang warfare then what we received from Incursion. Solo PVP is dead, and small gang PVP is dying. If we do get a nice sub-capital fight going, then that first NYX that drops ends it. Peeps dock up, log-off, and go play some other MMO because we can field the numbers to fight 15 NYXs. Super-Carriers have made Dread and Carrier second hand ships now.

So the DEVs with 100M+ SP toons in game, have you forgotten what it is like being a 15M SP sub-capital looking for a nice small gang pew. My money is that you have grown tired of it. What interests a 100M+ toon is 6% hardwires, best named capital modules, and a new Sansha Super-Carrier to build and fly. I believe you stopped flying small gang PVP when we stopped seeing new PVP ships.

What is done is done. I am disappointed.

prospector oen
Posted - 2011.01.30 08:53:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Octavian Gaius
What did the sub-capital PVP pilot get this expansion. Be honest - a new face, rockets semi-fixed. The Sansha Incursion maybe be shiney today but in a few weeks they will be just something else that is farmed for ISK. The big O.O alliances are the winners. They are the only ones able to build and field these OP super-carriers. Everything from Sansha Super-Carrier BPC drop to the capital ship modules in the Concord LP store smacks of the DEVs taking care of their BFFs in O.O. Smacking of the DEVs take care of themselves.

A new T3 frigate would have done more for PVP, industry, and small gang warfare then what we received from Incursion. Solo PVP is dead, and small gang PVP is dying. If we do get a nice sub-capital fight going, then that first NYX that drops ends it. Peeps dock up, log-off, and go play some other MMO because we can field the numbers to fight 15 NYXs. Super-Carriers have made Dread and Carrier second hand ships now.

So the DEVs with 100M+ SP toons in game, have you forgotten what it is like being a 15M SP sub-capital looking for a nice small gang pew. My money is that you have grown tired of it. What interests a 100M+ toon is 6% hardwires, best named capital modules, and a new Sansha Super-Carrier to build and fly. I believe you stopped flying small gang PVP when we stopped seeing new PVP ships.

What is done is done. I am disappointed.


CCP are going a bit broke atm henc the substandard work. Dont blame them their funds are tight

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.30 09:26:00 - [170]
 

Have any of the Incursions re-spawned yet?

Forlorn Wongraven
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.01.30 09:56:00 - [171]
 

(1) High-sec incursions needs Sansha rats on the gate like there are in low-sec and 0.0. Systems are under influence from Mr. Kuvakei, military experts call this a blockade. ;)
(2) Mining vanguard site takes 2 to 3 times as long as the other vanguards.
(3) Fitting screen should show the lowered resists on ships.
(4) Other than that: great work and good fun. New Logistic pilots can use this as perfect training ground.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.01.30 10:26:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Have any of the Incursions re-spawned yet?


Yes, three incursions have spawned, one is already at 55% complete or so.

Ovella
Posted - 2011.01.30 11:58:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Cresalle
Originally by: Ovella
Yes, it'd be good to get a warning that you about to rep a criminal when he does something wrong in the process of being repped, but that was "broken" for ages and was pointed out to devs on sisi, so deal with it.


So you're saying that it was a problem on sisi and they didn't fix it, so now that it's live on TQ they shouldn't fix it?
No, I'm saying that this "problem" was on TQ since... well, forever. It's just CCP never had good reason to "look into it", so deal with it as you did until now. Besides, they even "looking into it" already.

Originally by: Cresalle
And what the hell does this have to do with people stealing loot?
It's just about as "fair" as getting concorded for repping somone you don't know :)

Originally by: Cresalle
Is anyone even complaining about looters?
Imagine, just few posts above there was exactly discussion how "unfair" it is that anyone can loot sansha flying turd and their precious mission boats.

Originally by: tasman devil
High sec should really use some tweaking, like salvaging another man's NPC wreck should be considered stealing, etc.
It shouldn't, and it was confirmed by devs about dosen times already. Tho, I wouldn't mind blowing up few mission runners if this will ever change.

Super Stallion
Posted - 2011.01.30 12:03:00 - [174]
 

My contribution has to do with EWAR in Scout sites. I honestly believe that EWAR users are not weighted strong enough to show up in the top 5 player lists.

Being an EWAR fan, i am not finding life to be very pleasurable in Scout Sites. The scout sites have waves of 2-4 frigates, which my blackbird easily jamms with racial ECM. I can perma jam every ship in the site, every wave, and i still do not show up in the top five contributers.

So, i began sacrificing ewar for offensive potential. Being into min/maxing... hybrid builds is not something i am really into. never the less, i began fitting a variety of missile launchers/turrets to see if i can get into the top 5 with some combination of EWAR and some damage. Still nothing. It is obvious that there is a hidden calculator used to see which players are the top contributers, and ECM is not weighted as heavily as raw damage/logistic support.

By comparison, these sites are currently plagued with battleships/battle cruisers which end up tearing apart the waves to fast for the smaller ships to even compete. Often times the waves will be obliterated before they get within a medium range sett up for cruisers. I think it is obvious that battleships/battle cruises simply are not needed in scout sites.

Also, logistics are very heavily weighted in these sites. I went to some scout sites with a couple corp mates that were a bit intimidated by incursion. They were in logistic ships, and would cap transfer each other, and do some random healing on people when my EWAR wasnt hitting. hehe, so it wasnt even much healing. And, they would consistently be within the top 5 participants.

Meanwhile, ECMers get the short end of the stick. As it stands, i would not recommend bringing EWAR to a scout class site. Not unless some of the calculations behind the scenes are adjusted.

Outside of hiding the scout sites behind a ship restricting acceleration gate, i would suggest using a multiplier to inhibit the use of larger ships within a scout site. I am thinking that you could multiply the total contribution of battleships by .25, battle cruisers by .50, and so on, within scout sites. They aren't needed there anyway.

I think this would help to clean out the scout sites of ships which are just to big to do anything other than dominate the site.


But, then you have the problem of people being bored while looking for the fleet. I think this is also a reason why those big ships are within the scout sites. I propose making every rat in the asteroid belts provide 2 LP for frigates, and 3 LP for cruisers. Its not a lot at all. It is actually just a little bit worse than doing the scout sites. But, it would give the battleship guys something to do when they are kicked out of the scout sites.

Right now Scout sites are incredibly broken... unless you are in a battleship.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.01.30 13:44:00 - [175]
 

just a suggestion, and it may seem stupid, but wouldnt it be easiest to de-spawn the beacon as soon as the first spawn happens in the plex? that way you would have to be in fleet to get to it; or i guess you could scan it down.

If everyone warps out just de-spawn the plex and spawn it somewhere else.

Super Stallion
Posted - 2011.01.30 14:37:00 - [176]
 

to be fair the scout sites do respawn fairly rapidly. seems to always be at least one up. but its hard to get in the top 5 with an EWAR ship... seeing as they arent especially built for damage. It doesnt help matters much when you are fighting against battleships/battlecruisers/tengus for a top 5 performer spot.

Lupus Caeli
Minmatar
Interstellar Arbitrage
Posted - 2011.01.30 14:56:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Lupus Caeli on 30/01/2011 17:55:01
Post removed ... apparently i'm not allowed to say that Incursions plexes are bugged and what the GM's say about it, nor that they will not reimburse loss of rewards due to their bugged game ...oops







Lupus Caeli
Minmatar
Interstellar Arbitrage
Posted - 2011.01.30 15:32:00 - [178]
 

In other words CCP have no interest in public relations, or provided support when their system is at fault. They'd much rather alienate 40+ pilots and possibly lose 40+ fee paying customers on a monthly basis than payout a few ingame resources that weren't received due to a bug they are indeed aware of.

Currently all ppl in the fleet are receiving the same response from customer support - what a misnomer - customer suppoprt - where is the support ????

Zeeawk
Posted - 2011.01.30 15:36:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Lupus Caeli
2011.01.30 13:43:00 GM Orfeus
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, I'm GM Orfeus.

Thank you for contacting customer support.

There was an issue with the site in question at the time but this is one of the very, very difficult cases where the specific information we need to confirm the issue isn't obtainable. Without the implicit confirmation we can't reimburse either as our strict reimbursement policy stipulates.

I'm truly sorry but due to the very many variables that would affect the rewards or the lack thereof we can't take action in this matter.

I'm truly sorry.

Sincerely,
GM Orfeus
EVE Online Customer Support Team




I got the same canned response.

CCP Dev please help us.

CCP asked us if we were ready to repel the Sansha. We never asked CCP if they were ready to pay rewards.
This is what the test server is for right?

If I went and bought a 900M ISK Machariel off the market and it took my ISK and never gave me my item,
What would the GM say oops sorry to difficult to give me my money back ?
It's the same thing!

Please fix. Please help.

Kitty McKitty
Gallente
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.01.30 15:41:00 - [180]
 

My Feedback: The sooner they remove enforced pve the better. Some of us have better things to do than team up with a bunch of noobs to clear some content we have no interest in just so we can carry on with our own plans. Sandbox my arse.


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