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Edwin Rothbard
Interstellar Arbitrage
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:10:00 - [61]

Edited by: Edwin Rothbard on 30/01/2011 20:39:14
I capitulate. I love big brother.

Lupus Caeli
Interstellar Arbitrage
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:30:00 - [62]

I was in Edwin's fleet for all four HQ's a didnot get a reward either :( but my 2cents worth on the overall experience....

Incursion brings ppl together in fleets like the 0.0 fleets - but gives that experience in High-sec where many ppl don't have that sort of experience (or fun:)).

It took us the first plex to figure out what needed doing and many ships died ....

But we improved as we went along and had only one ship loss on the last HQ !!!

Our fleet composition was (though this varied a little) 7-8 logistics (scimitar, balisisk, Osprey) a smattering of BS's but mostly shield buffered drakes and 2-4 HAFs.

All in all it was a great experience and many new friends were made ... let's hope the bug is sorted and we get our just rewards....

Out of interest has any other group other than Edwins fleet tackled the True Sansha Provisional Headquarters and received any rewards ????

That would be interesting to know for our petitions and bug-reports.

Lupus Caelie

David Przybyciel
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:31:00 - [63]

Edited by: David Przybyciel on 28/01/2011 20:32:54
Evil or Very Mad
He.s not lieing i was with Edwin Rothbard on all 4 of them missons I petition as well as the some other players that were with him and me as well and all we got back from them low pay gm.s was
"There is a known issue with some Incursion sites not despawning correctly, leaving their beacon in space even if you have completed the incursion site and received the notification of completion. We aim to address this in our upcoming patch."

GM Grave
EVE Online Customer Support Team "

well the pach when out AND NO ONES GOT THE LP OR ISK FROM DOING IT !
CCP we wood love to keep doing the missons for 40 man fleets but when we dont get any thing for it WHY shood WE DO THE RAIDES !!

Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:43:00 - [64]

The difficulty of the sites seems fine to me. However, there's one thing that might need some improvements:

Even standard buffer fit pvp ships, the initial warp-in alpha is quite huge. If the system is under some load already (thinking mainly of 0.0 here, which starts lagging with more than a dozen people in system), even plated abaddons can be quite in trouble.

Wouldn't it be a bit better if sansha warped in with some delay, or uncloaked, or only had a smaller force and immediately had backup warp in after tackling? In the sites I've been in, there was always already a huge load of them in the plex, sometimes causing problems when the server decided to sleep a bit.

On ship balance..seems to look fine to me. You can take pvp fleets into the sites and complete them in a reasonable time, so I'd say mission accomplished.

However, there's one caveat with the entire feature. A question that has still not been answered:

What will keep incursions from becoming a mandatory grind, especially in 0.0, that people might get tired off due to very limited content? The system effects are pretty severe, so it forces people to clean up. But if the content is no longer interesting, it'll be just another annoying obstacle between us and our emergent gameplay.

And, no offense, but you guys don't have a good track record on "iterating". The word itself has become a running joke already.

Originally by: The Snowman

it says 'ISK(amount)' + 'LP(amount)' x Ratio

Which, reads to me that if the ratio is 'zero' then you get the minimum reward multiplied by 'zero'.. it doesnt explain that you will get 'absolutely zero'

Wow. Rarely has a forum post make me want to hurt someone phsysically as much as this one.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:49:00 - [65]

Ok I saw a post earlier about concord ships as lp rewards. Now this could be interesting.

The issue would be setting up stats for the ship. Since it would be a reward for killing sanshas, obviously it should have some rewards towards killing them.

Say, an armor / shield modifier against em thermal damage. BUT not too high, say for shields, base 40 em / thermal and armor 75 em / 40 thermal.

Also make it like pirate faction ships, you need more than 1 faction ship skill to fly them.

Anyway it's just an idea. Balance is a really hard issue, but they should be at least equiv to t2.

Seraphine Keratus
Posted - 2011.01.28 20:54:00 - [66]

HQ Issue:

I was with Edwin Rothbard in 2 of the 4 Fleets.
Always leading the Logi Squad we had a lot of fun and were quiete busy to keep our guys alive.

Nevertheless in both Fleets we kept the maximum of involved Pilots and we did not get any reqrd.
That is a bit of a downer since we spent so much time on organizing and flying through the pockets.

What i would like to know is:

- The clear boundaries of the restriction of people.. How is that measured?

Because the fleet was perfectly within the restrictions for the reward, but we cannot stop people, that are not in our Fleet to jump through the beacon gates to and so they end up on our grid too.
Do they count too?

All in all its a fun change and very welcome to brighten the high sec life a bit, making carebears cheer up and actually get some movement into their "colorful" lifes in their omfgrawr marauders or freighters ;-)
more stuff pls ;-)


Seraphine Keratus

Chairman Lei
Posted - 2011.01.28 22:30:00 - [67]

Jesus Christ what did you do to Stoffer CCP?

Here's him looking his witty and sexy self before you got your cold shriveled hands on him
Hes current state.


Smacked Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.28 23:29:00 - [68]

Just some suggestions:

Add another Incursion Penalty to traders, like some additional taxes for market orders in Incursion Space. Would be more realistic.

Add more small (random) encounters with less LP in belts / Moons / planets / stations / gates to give small groups up to 5 ppl something they can aim for.

Have Sanshas camp Gates/Stations even in Highsec (Gate Sentrys and Navy Ships will support players or get destroyed)
Combined with that have a warning to appear when you are abut to enter a Incursion System like "You are about to enter a incursion system, and evil sansha pirates will gank you everywhere. Do you wish to proceed"

BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
Posted - 2011.01.28 23:35:00 - [69]

Hi, i'm only talking for vanguard sites because i farm them with my corp since day one successfully.

We used 6 Vexor Naxy/Deimos/Ishtar 3 Guardian/Oneiros and 1 Salvager (for salvaging idiots that burn into flames before us ^^)

Nation Commander Outpost is fine, balanced difficulty to keep us awake, good reward.
Nation Mining Colony is fine too, harder to take down with an unprepared fleet, but easy to finish when you mine lyavite for hours in the first time to always have 500m3 on you to finish it quickly ;)

But ...

Override Tranfert Arry is ****ty. The intention was good ... but seriously, 120 to 140 km war disabling the station ? every 5 or 10 minutes (i didn't count) ? well we've finish the site once ... But for now we don't want to go ther because we spent three times the time we spent on the others for the same reward so thank you.

The objective is cool, but please, stop these poping can to hack, it's not really a good thing in the gameplay, and honestly break the dynamic of the mission we used to have with, i admit, the best PvE you ever done folks ;)

Btw ... continue to work on those events ... my corp never played before than we do now, and thanks to you :)

Posted - 2011.01.28 23:39:00 - [70]

Originally by: Batolemaeus

Originally by: The Snowman

it says 'ISK(amount)' + 'LP(amount)' x Ratio

Which, reads to me that if the ratio is 'zero' then you get the minimum reward multiplied by 'zero'.. it doesn't explain that you will get 'absolutely zero'

Wow. Rarely has a forum post make me want to hurt someone physically as much as this one.

I am not sure where the original post is that had this expression, but if it was replicated accurately then Snowman is correct. Proper order of operations performed on expression would result in something like this:

Let ISK = 20000, LP = 200, and Ratio = 0

20000 + 200 * 0 = 20000, in order of operations multiplication comes first. Therefore 200*0 has to be performed before the addition.

The expression could have been written as { 'ISK(amount)' + 'LP(amount)' } x Ratio to reduce confusion

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.01.29 00:28:00 - [71]

Originally by: Teneria

Add another Incursion Penalty to traders, like some additional taxes for market orders in Incursion Space. Would be more realistic.

Have Sanshas camp Gates/Stations even in Highsec (Gate Sentrys and Navy Ships will support players or get destroyed)
Combined with that have a warning to appear when you are abut to enter a Incursion System like "You are about to enter a incursion system, and evil sansha pirates will gank you everywhere. Do you wish to proceed"

The incursion penalty for traders trying to bring supplies in or evacuated materials should be a very real chance of getting their hauler killed by sansha pirates.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.01.29 00:39:00 - [72]

It would be nice to be able to get more information about how an incursion is going. Right now all you can really see is the influence bar.. I want wartime reports! Ni=umber of enemy ships destroyed, number of sites cleared, things like that.

Marconus Orion
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:03:00 - [73]

I think the nerf to regain was too much. Maybe try halfway between what it was and what it is now.

Another thing that is wrong is if there is a fleet already in there combating the Sanshas, other ships that come in are all but completely ignored. You have people warp in flying noob ships and t1 destroyers and frigates and as long as the other fleet is there fighting them, if they don't aggress the Sanshas at all, they are totally safe. Free to fly around and do whatever.

Perhaps make all gates have a restriction to not allow pods, noob ships and maybe t1 (non-faction) frigates and destroyers. Make people at least risk something. A gang of noob ships in a site just hanging around looting and letting another fleet do all the work and they get a reward when the site is complete too is just wrong. I'm sure they love it but like I said, risk vs. reward. They have risked nothing.

And yes, I just log on a noob alt sometimes just to go in sites an leach off others work and steal from their fallen comrades wrecks too, but I just feel dirty with the no risk and all reward theme here. Wink

Tarra Nobilii
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:09:00 - [74]

Just my feedback on rewards;

1) Can LPs or bounties be issued on ship kills within sites? For those of us that jumped in an got ourselves blown up, I dont see much payoff. If the fleet is too big, no reward...if the fleet is too small, you die...if the fleet is just right, the site can be 'stolen' by another fleet who may not get a reward due to them being oversized. If the goal is to defend the Factions from a true Invasion/Incursion...then why not have some mechanic to reward larger fleets. If the Amarr Empire was being invaded, for example, then why wouldnt Concord want any and every pilot there to push back? I am all for making it challenging and not making rewards too easily achieved...but at present, I cant justify risking ship after ship to go on an incursion.
2) I highly doubt many new players could survive the incoming dps, even with logistics. I dont think making things easier is the answer but going back to my first point, 30 newbs running a site could be a fun experience. More people having more fun=more money CCP.
3) Current system is very much like "hey, can I join your fleet"...perhaps a posted advert system? Maybe a way to recruit pilots from an interface screen somewhere...such as vanguard, assault, etc; desired ship size/class; tanking; logistics; whatever. I might join a fleet now and find that it gets oversized, we warp to a site that is too hard to run, or some other concern that wastes my time, forcing me to die needlessly or defleet for another opportunity (wastes my time).

Atlantean Defense Fleet
Motivated and Determined
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:29:00 - [75]

Firstly, I want to thank CCP for this wonderful expansion, and ask that it is not forgotten soon (like FW for example), but kept nice and clean, like wormholes.
Also I think that this was a massive boost to the wallets of industrialists, especially Drake builders (lol).

Now, impovements suggestions/feedback:
1) Make more sites or it will become too boring, too soon. 3-4 sites per level will become too boring fast, hell we have a ton of missions yet we've still memorised them all. Perhaps use this attribute of the Sansha "known to change their tactics" to change the spawns a bit? it doesn't make much sense so I think that the creation of more, similar but with their own unique feature, Sansha Sites is needed.
2) Will this be a Sansha-feature only? I feel sorry for the people who have trained Gallente/Minmatar Carrier (though most will never get to fly a faction Supercap if it remains as superior to normal carriers as it is today). Angel, Guristas, Serpentis, Blood Raiders, as well as the much-needed Gallente/Amarr and Caldari/Minmatar new pirate factions should also have their own go at other people's space (e.g: It's Angel Month! Get ready cuz these guys have even more Jovian tech! (introduction of tech 4, *maybe* ?).
3) As others have stated before, having only one fleet get the rewards can be unfair sometimes, because it is based solely on damage dealt. That means that damage taken, which could coincidentally be taken by one fleet more than others, is completely discarded. Additionaly determinants on who gets the rewards should be added. Possible factors may include: Damage Taken, Ships lost, Incursion Veterancy (previous participation in incursions may be a positive or negative factor, many pros and cons for both), and finally a factor relating to EWAR, because if you jam the **** out of them, therefore take no dmg, you still deserve something, as you're also helping out the competing fleets.
4) Not only give no rewards, but give a little extra to those who lose their ship (but not reward a Rifter loss in a HQ, for obvious anti-"cheat" reasons.

Marconus Orion
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:34:00 - [76]

Edited by: Marconus Orion on 29/01/2011 01:38:29
Also where the hell are the new Incursions? The last high sec one is about to go down as I type this so that makes three Incursions completed and non-have re-spawned anywhere.

They should re-spawn immediately and there should be at least double the amount of Incursions.

Tomaso Yoshitome
Posted - 2011.01.29 01:39:00 - [77]

Please make failing to complete / fight off Incursions have real consequences!

i.e. failure to fight off an incursion will drop the security status of a system, say just the Headquarter system for the Sansha in that constellation. This would have real and dynamic consequences, especially if the Sansha dropped a 0.5 to a 0.4 in a key hub system.

This doesn't necessarily have to be permanent, if a system does drop down to low-sec, the ability to raise its sec back up should remain by fighting off the Sansha in the Incursion sites. If you want people to get involved in the EVE storyline, really make them care, otherwise, as someone said, it's just a glorified moving theme park.

I'd also love to see the option to assist the Sansha, and earn Sansha LP by fighting CONCORD / Empire forces in low-sec / 0.0.

Alexander Ramazul
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.29 02:49:00 - [78]

My main priority is that I am hoping to see a continuing concentration of incursions in highsec. As a six month old pilot, I've very much enjoyed participating in the current highsec incursions, but probably would be disinclined to venture into lowsec and have to deal with griefers just looking to make life hard for folks fighting Sansha.

Posted - 2011.01.29 02:54:00 - [79]

(Oh my god I hate reading these forums.)

Anyway, one of the responses reminded me of somthering about the journal. I think it would be a good idea to be able to click on an incursion in the journal and get a list of the uncompleted complexes by system. This would prevent the need to fly all over the damn constellation looking for them.

Keala II
Posted - 2011.01.29 03:09:00 - [80]

Love what you have done with EVE now, with the whole new Incusion thing, so much fun now to play EVE. Anyway, was wondering if you could lower the dps from sansha rats, got 4 shoted in my Myrmidon BC. One shot took all shields out & 3-5k in armor took out my 11k armor hp. Seems to me a bit much, plze try & take dps down.

Linna Excel
Posted - 2011.01.29 03:17:00 - [81]

I've got a bug to report. I can only see incursions in my journal when I'm in a constellation that has them. When I was in allente, I couldn't see any incursions listed. As I moved towards clellion, they started to show up. Moved out of the const and they disappeared again.

City of Certitude
Zinc Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.29 03:24:00 - [82]

Originally by: CCP TomB

Hey look, it's the guy who thought pink chilli sauce on his screen was a new feature!

But srsly, don't go anywhere now you hear, we need blobs, fw, hybrids and lag fixed. Also lowsec while you're at it, ty.

General Ryu
Posted - 2011.01.29 03:34:00 - [83]

I want to see Sansha hit Jita too. THAT would be sweet, and I'm sure the players would put up a huge fight, and defend their territory. Even high-sec carebears will defend their holdings when interrupted.

Or try and scam them into paying 75million for elite drone ai now that would be funny

Other than that there still plenty more to be added to the incursion idea

Lone Star Privateers
Posted - 2011.01.29 03:34:00 - [84]

I've said this before...But i'd like to repeat/rephrase here.

I think incursions "could" bring a wonderful new dynamic and advancement for eve.

That being said I believe that a major ball was dropped concerning concord remaining present in highsec incursions.

With the meet up systems and Incursion Public chat. There is an opportunity for the PERFECT buffer between lowsec and highsec. Also a wonderful recruiting tool for pilots to get to network.

The known problems with concord wiping pug's are obvious,but Concord kills the opportunity also for legit pvp concerning sites. As it is now, even if a solid pug formed...if a larger one came in ..they are helpless from making anything from it..and can only leave.

Ganking an incursion fleet is a loose loose scenario...and although there will be people trying it...I've found that just looting wrecks in an incursion to be a major challenge...and not worth the risk .

I can understand making the gate/station guns 100 times more powerful to prevent highsec gate/station camps.
With security status plummeting they wouldn't stay long anyways...and would be trapped.

But leave the police out of the equation.

TL/DR: Concord in Highsec incursions is a detriment...and does nothing but hurt the players.

Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad
Broken Chains Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.29 04:08:00 - [85]

Originally by: Tomaso Yo****ome
Please make failing to complete / fight off Incursions have real consequences!

i.e. failure to fight off an incursion will drop the security status of a system, say just the Headquarter system for the Sansha in that constellation. This would have real and dynamic consequences, especially if the Sansha dropped a 0.5 to a 0.4 in a key hub system.

This doesn't necessarily have to be permanent, if a system does drop down to low-sec, the ability to raise its sec back up should remain by fighting off the Sansha in the Incursion sites....

hey! i liiiiike this idea!

Originally by: Shaera Taam

2) long term effects of the nation's invasion!
put simply, if people get bored of incursions or find them too hard on the average isk wallet, they're going to get ignored / flown around. if / when this happens, have there be a lasting effect on that constellation and the surrounding systems. my favorite option is a sec rating hit... have the system containing the hardest sites (HQ?) suddenly go null and be very hostile to player structures! the surrounding systems with easier sites suddenly register on maps as low sec, with similar hostility to player occupants! lastly, put a 0.1 or 0.2 sec rating hit to all systems surrounding that constellation! imagine the fun if the incursion next door to rens (or jita!) were ignored for too long? ...and when the threat finally gets cleared, the sec ratings return *slowly*... see? lasting consequences!


Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2011.01.29 04:47:00 - [86]

Originally by: Yukino Yuu
usually BC and BS with a few assault ships and HACs here and there.
It would be nice to see more frig and cruiser fleets.

The problem is that the Sansha Incursions favour PvP fits over PvE. Take a look at any large combat corps killboard and you'll see....
BC, BS, HAC, Recons, Bombers, Interceptors, Interdiction and such.

Ok, you'll find the odd lunatic gank destroyer op but fundamentally T1 frigates and cruisers aren't used that much if at all... other than lighting cyno's. Some of those ships have no use in high sec/low sec areas (a bomber that can't bomb? Why are you interdicting the NPC's?)

Now is this a problem with T1 frigates (too general a generalist ship?), Incursions or player perceptions of them I don't know.

OTOH I love flying Tristan's for some twisted reason... probably because I watched The Last Star Fighter too many times so whatever :)

Asteroid Miners Consortium
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.29 05:03:00 - [87]

Incursion in Kimotoro (Jita's constellation) please

And put it on a busy weekend.

Thalis Malu
Posted - 2011.01.29 05:06:00 - [88]

Add one more to the camp of "Difficulty = Awesome; Rewards = Not so much"

As for suggestions I have to side with those, again, who said you should really start adding more types of encounters or ideally mix up the spawn rate and triggers. Or do both for added points. As mentioned before most of us mission bears have mission layouts and triggers down to a science. Give it time an there will come a point where every trigger is known, every enemy warp-in point is marked and ideal fleet comps are found and mass produced.

If you slip in a bit of randomness to the encounters it would really liven things up quite a bit and keep pilots on their toes regardless if this is their 1st Incursion or 100th. Maybe make it vary the ships that will spawn. Instead of a fleet of frigates you might get 2 or 4 cruisers. Mix it up a bit so that it will remain new and closer to the "PvP feel" of things where you have some idea of the force you're facing but what actually shows up may or may not be what intel suggested.

The idea of roaming Sansha gangs is also win. Belt rats are cool and difficult but again, they are just belt rats (which really need some sort of reward for killing.) Gangs of Sansha just roaming about the systems would really add an element of PvP gangs roaming about and ganking whoever they see. I can already imagine some fun/expensive encounters with fleets staging at a planet only to be ganked by Sansha Very Happy An added bonus of roaming Sansha gangs is that you can scale them to varying degrees to give smaller fleets, and possible soloers something to do. While their small fleet might not be enough to take out a site it would be enough to deal with roaming gangs and if said gangs have some sort of payout in bounty or LP it would be worth it for small ragtag fleets to hang around Incursion systems.

While I really like the idea of long term effects of Incursions it does kind of force people to do something and that's never really been something Eve has stood for. Some sort of after effect though does need to be implemented. Right now once an Incursion is dealt with everything just goes back to normal. There needs to be some sort of after shock. Which, I think would go hand in hand with what Teneria suggested, a trade penalty.

It makes sense that when marauding terrorists suddenly get a foothold in a constellation prices and taxes are going to sky rocket. This could best be illustrated by a 100% to 200% tax increase on all trades. Taxes are diddly squat now, most people don't even notice them however traders do simply because of the volumes they move. If suddenly traders have to pay 100-200 times more in taxes you can bet they will feel it and either stop trading in affect systems (makes sense) or jack up prices to cover them. Other pilots would then notice this as well when suddenly ammo, drones and other vitals are no longer being supplied to stations. Further when a normal pilot goes to buy something while he regularly doesn't notice taxes if they are suddenly 200% higher you can be assured he will notice.

Doing that, then having 4-4 get invaded would have profound and unknown effects on the entire galaxy. ShockedVery Happy It would be nothing short of the most awesomest, awesome thing evar.

If you do hypothetically invade 4-4 I suggest you make that Incursion a friggin badass. Make that a unique event even where the counter for control is reset to prepatch levels and the Sansha in generally take a hit of happyjuice before attacking.

Playboy Enterprises
Posted - 2011.01.29 05:12:00 - [89]

Love the new content.
Found that a PVP RR armor fleet did the vanguards with relative ease. Loved the mining sites and so did some of our miners who came out in hulks and got us several km^3 of the ore to use.
Even though this is PVE it is a good training ground for fleet PVP. Did find that pvp fits worked better.
Unfortunately finding a competent fleet was a little annoying but once one was found it would last hours and clear several sites. The Hacking site can for the overseer needs fixed because several times it would start up before it jetted the hacking can for us to shut it down again.
Would like to maybe see a little better rewards in the LP store but new capital modules was a good start for a ship class that has been over looked for awhile.

Thalis Malu
Posted - 2011.01.29 05:27:00 - [90]

*Double post since apparently I hit word countShocked*


One thing I think that needs to be work on is the reaction time that Sansha have to arriving fleets. As mentioned before on warp in the alpha is massive and happens within the first second of a ship arriving on grid. If you happen to arrive even slightly before the rest of your fleet and don't have a huge buffer you're likely going to be space junk before logi even has a chance to blink.

One example from last night was when my Hyperion with a 120k EHP buffer along with 2 'phoons warped into a HQ or Vanguard (can't recall) can slightly before our logi team did. One of the phoons went down in seconds just as our logi team arrived. I was primed next and as my logi team was just getting oriented I had already been kicked down to 60-70% armor. By the time they realize wtf was happening I was down to 20% armor and just barely warped out with my ship. Total time of that entire event was about 10-15 seconds. Granted, we made a few mistakes in that site but still.

I really think the quick reaction time of the Sansha needs to be toned down just a smidged. Nothing serious, and absolutely nothing like mission rats, but give them a slight dely in realizing "oh **** capsuleers on grid"

10 seconds would be pushing it and is probably way to long of a delay. I'd say just give us a 5 second window of Sansha getting their ducks aligned. 5 seconds is really all you should need for FC to asses the situation, call a target, and logi team to have at least started to get set up.

This way at least the first person in isn't insta-melted.

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