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Dante Marcellus
Minmatar
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
Posted - 2011.02.08 14:03:00 - [331]
 

I think the Incursions are neat! They've got something for everyone, whether you wanna go solo or with a friend or even a giant fleet of crazy people. Twisted Evil

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.02.08 17:01:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Xel Ra

RE: lowsec pirate comments like this one, can I get you a cigar with that whine? Cry me a river. The last thing that the pvp "leet" pirates need is help ganking easy kills for their utterly un-challenging noobie-killing gameplay style. I mean, what a bunch of crybabies: some of the most uninteresting, pathetic players in Eve. I don't care if you go back to WoW or wherever, just go.



Damn you, my butthurtometer just blew up! Good thing my irony detector barely survived.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.02.09 01:11:00 - [333]
 

Personal experience today: Logged in, saw incursion in progress in my area, read the incursion chat for a while, logged off instead of playing the game (grinding missions for R&D standings) as I'd intended to...
I'm not complaining about it either, but simply CBA to participate today (nor did I have any properly fitted ships nearby)...

It COULD be argued from a business point of view that content that may make players log off instead of playing is not optimal.

Now, with THAT out of the way...

I like the concept of incursions, and the implementation is not half bad. The above was simply what the effect was on me when I logged in and saw the incursion in progress, and isn't criticism as such...

I logged on when this incursion was getting reasonably close to finished, and the incursion chat was pretty pathetic. First of all there was a couple of fleets being gathered for the mommyship, but that of course meant that these people were all concentrating on getting that fleet together, NOT on actually getting to the point where mommy would appear.

As others have said, there should be a delay between reaching 0% and mommy appearance. Maybe the delay should be a random number of minutes (15-45) during which the incursion HAVE to be kept at or below 1%....

Now... regardless of my personal experience described above, I think incursion effects on the invaded systems are too weak! There should be DANGER from an incursion in affected systems, no matter WHAT you do in space. Sansha should invade mission/exploration space, and they should send at least raiding parties to gates and maybe even stations... Maybe not all the time, but there should be a definite chance it'd happen!

The incursion percentage seems to go down (way) too quickly... Given the (supposed) toughness of the new Sansha, it doesn't seem to take much to kick them out of areas they've decided to invade... Maybe limit how much the percentage can drop in one day to 25%...

The inconsistency in CONCORD not shooting at Sansha (and Sansha not shooting at CONCORD) when they're in the area breaks game immersion!
Either prevent CONCORD from entering Sansha pockets, or find some plausible explanation whey they don't shoot at each other!

The same with faction navies... They SHOULD be there shooting at Sanshas, and vice-versa. Maybe make it so that faction navies appear when players enter a fight, perhaps in strength proportional to player standings to them... They should not have anything near a decisive effect, but it would make things a little bit more consistent!

Incursions in 0.0 and low-sec seems to be completely pointless... As long as incursions are available to do in high-sec, nobody will attempt to do them in dangerous areas. Most likely they wouldn't even be done if they weren't in high-sec either...

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2011.02.09 04:22:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 09/02/2011 04:23:26
Originally by: Ingvar Angst



This establishes a precedent basically.

This is also another indicative reason.

The Sansha in the Live Events have in the past (and still do to an extent) made an offer for Capsuleers to join and fight for their cause. The complete lack of mechanical support to do that in Incursion strikes me more as a development decision rather than a storyline one. As Niraia mentioned, the head honcho of the entire faction is quite pleased with Capsuleer support.

Now if Kuvakei showed up and went all nope you're not needed anymore, that'll probably shut my trap up. It'll be mighty strange, but at least it will go towards establishing some kind of coherent train of action.

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.09 06:08:00 - [335]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Personal experience today: Logged in, saw incursion in progress in my area, read the incursion chat for a while, logged off instead of playing the game (grinding missions for R&D standings) as I'd intended to...
I'm not complaining about it either, but simply CBA to participate today (nor did I have any properly fitted ships nearby)...

It COULD be argued from a business point of view that content that may make players log off instead of playing is not optimal.

Now, with THAT out of the way...

I like the concept of incursions, and the implementation is not half bad. The above was simply what the effect was on me when I logged in and saw the incursion in progress, and isn't criticism as such...

I logged on when this incursion was getting reasonably close to finished, and the incursion chat was pretty pathetic. First of all there was a couple of fleets being gathered for the mommyship, but that of course meant that these people were all concentrating on getting that fleet together, NOT on actually getting to the point where mommy would appear.

As others have said, there should be a delay between reaching 0% and mommy appearance. Maybe the delay should be a random number of minutes (15-45) during which the incursion HAVE to be kept at or below 1%....

Now... regardless of my personal experience described above, I think incursion effects on the invaded systems are too weak! There should be DANGER from an incursion in affected systems, no matter WHAT you do in space. Sansha should invade mission/exploration space, and they should send at least raiding parties to gates and maybe even stations... Maybe not all the time, but there should be a definite chance it'd happen!

The incursion percentage seems to go down (way) too quickly... Given the (supposed) toughness of the new Sansha, it doesn't seem to take much to kick them out of areas they've decided to invade... Maybe limit how much the percentage can drop in one day to 25%...

The inconsistency in CONCORD not shooting at Sansha (and Sansha not shooting at CONCORD) when they're in the area breaks game immersion!
Either prevent CONCORD from entering Sansha pockets, or find some plausible explanation whey they don't shoot at each other!

The same with faction navies... They SHOULD be there shooting at Sanshas, and vice-versa. Maybe make it so that faction navies appear when players enter a fight, perhaps in strength proportional to player standings to them... They should not have anything near a decisive effect, but it would make things a little bit more consistent!

Incursions in 0.0 and low-sec seems to be completely pointless... As long as incursions are available to do in high-sec, nobody will attempt to do them in dangerous areas. Most likely they wouldn't even be done if they weren't in high-sec either...



1 - The timer, if you set a 15min timer every unorganized fleet out there will attempt to zerg the mothership. This turns the mothership fight to a turkey shoot. Its allready going down faster then it should Imo.

2 - We are doing the lowsec incursions. The rewards are substancially higher and that is incentive enough.

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.09 06:10:00 - [336]
 

Edited by: Medarr on 09/02/2011 06:11:44
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 07/02/2011 20:06:45
Originally by: Ghost Hunter
Tl;dr

Pro-Sansha game play needs mechanics to support it. Empire carebears get special blingbling for fighting the Sansha while Sansha aligned players and Pirates do not receive any options distinct from Empire players to their gameplay style.



Why would the Sansha want any lawless individuals joining with them? You can't be trusted in your own society, how can you be trusted not to try to mess up their vision of how the universe should be? This isn't an "enemy of my enemy" thing... you're just a lower level of scum than the rest of us scum.


Maybe you should first find out whom Mr Ghost Hunter really is before you make assumptions about him.

Ps, This does not mean I support him or his cause. However he does have a valid point.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.02.09 08:12:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Medarr
Originally by: Kerfira
My post

1 - The timer, if you set a 15min timer every unorganized fleet out there will attempt to zerg the mothership. This turns the mothership fight to a turkey shoot. Its allready going down faster then it should Imo.

And? That could be fixed by providing it with a real badass escort slaughtering unorganised people left, right and center! The escort has to be killed before the mommy can be damaged...

The purpose of the timer would be to force people to actually continue doing the other incursion encounters up to mommy arrival, thus why it has to be a random length.
Originally by: Medarr
2 - We are doing the lowsec incursions. The rewards are substancially higher and that is incentive enough.

Pardon me, I should have said 'COMPLETE 0.0 and low-sec incursions...', not 'do'...
The 'pointless' part of them is they don't ever seems to gain any completion percentage whatsoever...

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.09 14:59:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Medarr
Originally by: Kerfira
My post

1 - The timer, if you set a 15min timer every unorganized fleet out there will attempt to zerg the mothership. This turns the mothership fight to a turkey shoot. Its allready going down faster then it should Imo.

And? That could be fixed by providing it with a real badass escort slaughtering unorganised people left, right and center! The escort has to be killed before the mommy can be damaged...

The purpose of the timer would be to force people to actually continue doing the other incursion encounters up to mommy arrival, thus why it has to be a random length.
Originally by: Medarr
2 - We are doing the lowsec incursions. The rewards are substancially higher and that is incentive enough.

Pardon me, I should have said 'COMPLETE 0.0 and low-sec incursions...', not 'do'...
The 'pointless' part of them is they don't ever seems to gain any completion percentage whatsoever...


They are allready forced to do this since the influence goes back up and the mother ship HAS a badass escort.

Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.02.09 17:33:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Panhead4411

I think this is because 95% of the incursions so far have happened in every other empire outside of Caldari.



Every other empire? Hasn't been a single one in Republic yet, at least Caldari has had a couple. Amarr block has had loads of em. Rather odd.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.02.09 18:16:00 - [340]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 09/02/2011 18:18:38
Originally by: Medarr
Originally by: Kerfira
The purpose of the timer would be to force people to actually continue doing the other incursion encounters up to mommy arrival, thus why it has to be a random length.

They are allready forced to do this since the influence goes back up...

No, they're not! They're busy organising fleets and NOT doing encounters...
Originally by: Medarr
... and the mother ship HAS a badass escort.

You were whining over unorganised fleets...
Originally by: Kerfira
That could be fixed by providing it with a real badass escort


Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.09 18:43:00 - [341]
 

Did you even do any incursion??

Sillas Cov
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.02.09 19:53:00 - [342]
 

Okay I'll Bite

Ive run Incursion from Day One, and Fleet Commanded many smaller sites and 5 Mom 75 pilot Fleet battles using Shield tanked fleets. Great fun and meet some stellar Pilots.

-- PUGs or pick up groups are actually working and successful via Incursions atm --

Pilots with solid Experience are fleeting and mixing with greener Pilots to the betterment of the Eve community.

But there are issues that really have started too suck the life out of the willingness of Sheild tanking/repping pilots from fleeting for Large Mom fights.

The out of the Box advantage of Armour tanking combined with the solid fleet setups for max gank from the Armour Fleets for the Mother Ship fights----> Result: these Armour fleets are now consistently winning the Isk payouts for MOM fights.

Combine that with the cost in ship looses by Sheild logi pilots (200 mil a pop), and other pilot looses, and we have Sheild tankers NOT wanting to yet again get into a MOM fleet and loose AND get no reward at all for their time.

Yes the Sheild Fleet could fit for gank to adapt for a competitive edge, but from what I see as an Fc atm, there doesnt seems to be the large numbers of BS Sheild pilots willing to adapt quick enough and in large enough numbers, too give this a go.

Many Shield pilots have lost several MoM fights and simply are ****ed at having zero payout for their time, thus and not willing to participate. As well word may be out the Sheild fleets cant win MOM fights?

My sense is that Pilots with duel tanking abilities will simply migrate over too Armour fleets, as I am seeing now.

Down side of this is that this creates a trend for ongoing weak Shield Mom fleets both in numbers and quality of DPS qualified Pilots.

Further ECM has a huge advantage in an Incursion Rat pocket and Armour tanked Scorps are very useful to run the Assualts and HQ sites. Shield tanked Scorps can but at most Fit 3 ecm mods, with a tank.... and so...

Solutions?

Possibly the winning fleet for an Incursion site splits pay out with other fleets, with 75% going to winner and other fleets receiving a pay out in proportion to contribution, from the last 25%.

Dramatically Increase the isk payout so pilots can replace ships lost in all the incursion pockets and thus be more willing and able to help logi/ecm pilots replace mission critical ships.

Right now the isk payouts for incursions are trivial compared to professionalism,time commitment and rate of ship loose, being shown by my pilots.

Why force pilots too run solo level 4 missions to pay for ships lost in incursion fleets?

Incursion PUGS are actually working and very Fun and so why not inject a direct real isk incentive to keep pilots into these types of professional fleets?

Onward

Sillas


Wedgetail
Posted - 2011.02.09 20:01:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Sillas Cov
Okay I'll Bite

Ive run Incursion from Day One, and Fleet Commanded many smaller sites and 5 Mom 75 pilot Fleet battles using Shield tanked fleets. Great fun and meet some stellar Pilots.

-- PUGs or pick up groups are actually working and successful via Incursions atm --

Pilots with solid Experience are fleeting and mixing with greener Pilots to the betterment of the Eve community.

But there are issues that really have started too suck the life out of the willingness of Sheild tanking/repping pilots from fleeting for Large Mom fights.

The out of the Box advantage of Armour tanking combined with the solid fleet setups for max gank from the Armour Fleets for the Mother Ship fights----> Result: these Armour fleets are now consistently winning the Isk payouts for MOM fights.

Combine that with the cost in ship looses by Sheild logi pilots (200 mil a pop), and other pilot looses, and we have Sheild tankers NOT wanting to yet again get into a MOM fleet and loose AND get no reward at all for their time.

Yes the Sheild Fleet could fit for gank to adapt for a competitive edge, but from what I see as an Fc atm, there doesnt seems to be the large numbers of BS Sheild pilots willing to adapt quick enough and in large enough numbers, too give this a go.

Many Shield pilots have lost several MoM fights and simply are ****ed at having zero payout for their time, thus and not willing to participate. As well word may be out the Sheild fleets cant win MOM fights?

My sense is that Pilots with duel tanking abilities will simply migrate over too Armour fleets, as I am seeing now.

Down side of this is that this creates a trend for ongoing weak Shield Mom fleets both in numbers and quality of DPS qualified Pilots.

Further ECM has a huge advantage in an Incursion Rat pocket and Armour tanked Scorps are very useful to run the Assualts and HQ sites. Shield tanked Scorps can but at most Fit 3 ecm mods, with a tank.... and so...

Solutions?

Possibly the winning fleet for an Incursion site splits pay out with other fleets, with 75% going to winner and other fleets receiving a pay out in proportion to contribution, from the last 25%.

Dramatically Increase the isk payout so pilots can replace ships lost in all the incursion pockets and thus be more willing and able to help logi/ecm pilots replace mission critical ships.

Right now the isk payouts for incursions are trivial compared to professionalism,time commitment and rate of ship loose, being shown by my pilots.

Why force pilots too run solo level 4 missions to pay for ships lost in incursion fleets?

Incursion PUGS are actually working and very Fun and so why not inject a direct real isk incentive to keep pilots into these types of professional fleets?

Onward

Sillas




It's very obvious you haven't relaised but shield ships gain just as high if not higher damage output than armorloads...learn your ships...armor's advantage is tackle, shield's advantage is also blatantly obvious you're apparently just not using it :)

Wedgetail
Posted - 2011.02.09 20:19:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Ghost Hunter
Edited by: Ghost Hunter on 09/02/2011 04:23:26
Originally by: Ingvar Angst



This establishes a precedent basically.

This is also another indicative reason.

The Sansha in the Live Events have in the past (and still do to an extent) made an offer for Capsuleers to join and fight for their cause. The complete lack of mechanical support to do that in Incursion strikes me more as a development decision rather than a storyline one. As Niraia mentioned, the head honcho of the entire faction is quite pleased with Capsuleer support.

Now if Kuvakei showed up and went all nope you're not needed anymore, that'll probably shut my trap up. It'll be mighty strange, but at least it will go towards establishing some kind of coherent train of action.



on another note, I agree entirely with Ghost, the sympths made the live events interesting, there's always many sides to the same story and I'm really dissapointed that they've been sidelined as they have despite the role they played.

I know ccp intended for the live events to be players vs event but do they seriously not know thier player base? we're all chaotic and evil people >=)

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.09 21:04:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: Medarr on 10/02/2011 00:33:34

Originally by: Sillas Cov

The out of the Box advantage of Armour tanking combined with the solid fleet setups for max gank from the Armour Fleets for the Mother Ship fights----> Result: these Armour fleets are now consistently winning the Isk payouts for MOM fights.



We have a dedicated group of people running these sites. we are well organized and make sure we dont bring cruisers and other low dps ships into the mom fight.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Combine that with the cost in ship looses by Sheild logi pilots (200 mil a pop), and other pilot looses, and we have Sheild tankers NOT wanting to yet again get into a MOM fleet and loose AND get no reward at all for their time.


And Amarr ships arent expencive? To be honest I was pretty sure they cost more then your average raven ( Caldari Raven 86000000 isk Amarr Abaddon 139000000 isk )

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Yes the Sheild Fleet could fit for gank to adapt for a competitive edge, but from what I see as an Fc atm, there doesnt seems to be the large numbers of BS Sheild pilots willing to adapt quick enough and in large enough numbers, too give this a go.


That isnt a argument that is a complaint.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Many Shield pilots have lost several MoM fights and simply are ****ed at having zero payout for their time, thus and not willing to participate. As well word may be out the Sheild fleets cant win MOM fights?


Yes they can. They did so twice.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

My sense is that Pilots with duel tanking abilities will simply migrate over too Armour fleets, as I am seeing now.

Down side of this is that this creates a trend for ongoing weak Shield Mom fleets both in numbers and quality of DPS qualified Pilots.



People are free to fly what they want.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Further ECM has a huge advantage in an Incursion Rat pocket and Armour tanked Scorps are very useful to run the Assualts and HQ sites. Shield tanked Scorps can but at most Fit 3 ecm mods, with a tank.... and so...



They are adapting to what works. Seems like a good thing to me.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Possibly the winning fleet for an Incursion site splits pay out with other fleets, with 75% going to winner and other fleets receiving a pay out in proportion to contribution, from the last 25%.



Good idea. it would be a nice incentive for the losing fleet to keep trying.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Dramatically Increase the isk payout so pilots can replace ships lost in all the incursion pockets and thus be more willing and able to help logi/ecm pilots replace mission critical ships.



We tend to give our logies 3 to 5 mil per person to help them replace ship losses. I thought all fleets did this.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Right now the isk payouts for incursions are trivial compared to professionalism,time commitment and rate of ship loose, being shown by my pilots.


Force them to adapt. forge them into an effective fighting machine with good logistics and support.

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Why force pilots too run solo level 4 missions to pay for ships lost in incursion fleets?



Run a few vanguards or assaults?

Originally by: Sillas Cov

Incursion PUGS are actually working and very Fun and so why not inject a direct real isk incentive to keep pilots into these types of professional fleets?



Agreed

Fly safe Sillas.

Beldemon
Posted - 2011.02.09 21:33:00 - [346]
 

Only problem I have with incursions is theres not enough of them, just logged on and looked theres only two going, 1 in nullsec and the other in lowsec. Im not interested in those, I'd love to log on and see 5 or 6 active in empire.

Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
Posted - 2011.02.09 22:01:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Sillas Cov

The out of the Box advantage of Armour tanking combined with the solid fleet setups for max gank from the Armour Fleets for the Mother Ship fights----> Result: these Armour fleets are now consistently winning the Isk payouts for MOM fights.



It's the Drakes man, they have no DPS Rolling Eyes. Have all drake pilots switch to torp ravens so shield fleet might have a chance Wink

juraek
Posted - 2011.02.10 13:03:00 - [348]
 

Im sure this has been stated plenty of times before, but, one low sec, and one null sec incursion at any time seems to be plenty however, the high sec incursions need to be introduced in numbers to prevent overcrowding in one area.

If ccp is looking to have these incursions keep folks busy and entertained that would be a viable option. Spawning 1 highsec at a time only creates a quick end to the incursions as 400 pilots flock to one area and spam for fleet invites.

Sneecko100
Posted - 2011.02.10 17:35:00 - [349]
 

I would like to know if all of High sec incursion sites gonna be in amarr space,it realy seems like that.(havent seen any in minmatar space so far ugh ). For me and i believe for many others (gallente,minmatar pilots) its a problem,i would like to participate but got hostile standing against amarr.
Also more High sec. spots would be appreciated.

Sillas Cov
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.02.10 18:40:00 - [350]
 

Edited by: Sillas Cov on 10/02/2011 18:46:29
Originally by: Wedgetail

It's very obvious you haven't relaised but shield ships gain just as high if not higher damage output than armorloads...learn your ships...armor's advantage is tackle, shield's advantage is also blatantly obvious you're apparently just not using it :)


Wedgetail Thanks for the feedback.

My Background is Small gang Fleets using T1 ships in Rvb and in Low sec fac war. Im not a hyper skilled Min - Maxer by any means. Admittedly I am on a learning curve Fcing larger fleets, which is great, its why I play Eve, TBH.

My Feedback was primarily focused on Mom fights as Ive had to deal with them, with the pilots I have fleeting up, IN THE SHIP LOAD OUTS THEY SHOWN UP WITH.

Given, as an FC, I'm attempting to get 75 to 100 pilots into a fleet with my logi squads sorted all within 15 minutes time before the MOM arrives, Im not able to dictate terms too resolve and or explore the issues of exploiting shield dps/tanking bonuses that you are pointing too.

Ive won 1 Mom fight with a PUG shield group using pilots on hand, lost 5. The last Pug group attempt too form a Shield fleet had but 27 pilots willing to fleet up against the Armour fleet.

The solution I see, (SO Far), for competitive Shield MOM Pug groups is:

1)Get all the drakes into Ravens, of any kind,
2)Get many of the Ravens/Rohks/Others to fit and use: MWDs/Abs and Blasters/Torps/Siege Weapons/Med/large T2 drones, proper ammo types.
3)Jump into MOM pocket and burn too within Optimals and lay in the DPS.
4) Hope like hell the logis can rep as required with a fleet moving in such a scrumm.

So the solution is 2 fold, somehow convince Shield pilots who are skilled enough to fit solid DPS BS ships, and too once again fleet up in the numbers required.

And have 80% pilots fly Max dps ships in the MOM pocket.

But the problem is that Pug fleets are inherently attracting many newer pilots simply wanting to fleet in large fleets with the ships they can afford to fly. Pilots new to Professionally run fleets, and pilots who simply what to have fun shooting ****e.

Should I as an FC, force fleet composition? Is this possible in the large numbers required to be competitive - 50 to 75 pilots?

Wedgetail correct me if I'm wrong, but the MOM Armour tanking fleets are now consistently rejecting non competitive setups.. which pushes people out of fleets in which they could have had some fun and learnt something in the process.

From what I see The Lesson here is that if you want to get a payout on a MOM fight you need to train and get into an Armour tanking DPS gank ship. I could be wrong and Shield tankers will rally in Dps Bs ships, in the numbers required, but certainly that is a significant challenge.

Maybe The winning armour fleets are showing us that it is possible to mold pilots into gank setups for a solid chance at a MOM win... but at what cost? Excluding all pilots who dont conform? Which is counter to more casual PUG fleeting.

LOL eventually will the norm for competitive MOM fights be Armour tanking fleets, with the occasional Shield win ....?

And so it goes. Eve, as always, a harsh mistress.

Onward

Sillas

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.02.10 18:59:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Sillas Cov

LOL eventually will the norm for competitive MOM fights be Armour tanking fleets, with the occasional Shield win ....?

Won't quote the whole post because I need space too :D

As far as armor vs shields go, in pve it's no contest: shields win every time. This of course assumes equal skills on both sides. The problem, as you've mentioned, is that the armor gangs are forcing people to field GOOD ships, while the shield tankers are not.

This is not an issue with shield tanking, it's not a balance problem, it's just one fleet being BETTER at the game than the other. Let me give you a comparison to illustrate this point:
Megathron with 2 damage mods and blasters: 1148 DPS
Abaddon with pulses + 3 damage mods: 1074
Raven with 4 damage mods and torps: 1329

Shield tankers have more room for damage mods, so they deal more damage. It's as simple as that. Once you get the tanking set up the only thing that matters in pve is the damage you put out, so there is NO reason why a similarly skilled group of shield tankers would lose to an armor tanking fleet.

Thing is, the armor tanking fleet has better people in it. Better people with better ships, better mods, better skills, and a better understanding of the game. They SHOULD be winning most of the SC fights.

Eventually there will be corps big enough to field their own anti-mothership fleets. When this happens who wins will have much less to do with tank type and much more to do with which corps do it best.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.02.10 22:58:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Kerfira


It COULD be argued from a business point of view that content that may make players log off instead of playing is not optimal.


Would that be a negative for CCP? Decreased server and network loads resulting in delayed infrastructure upgrades and the associated costs sound good to me! Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

CCP has created some incredibly inane and terrible time sinks in this game. As crazy as it reads, I wouldn't put it past them to include "motivate user to log off" as one of their game design goals in some cases.

Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.02.11 01:51:00 - [353]
 

For the love of god please set the mothership wreck lootable to the winning fleet only. Even after 14 tries non of us who participated in the mothership fight managed to loot it. This is getting most annoying.

Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:09:00 - [354]
 

Originally by: Medarr
For the love of god please set the mothership wreck lootable to the winning fleet only. Even after 14 tries non of us who participated in the mothership fight managed to loot it. This is getting most annoying.


What more needs to be said?, we all understand "The Dynamics of the Game", but the fact of the matter is, many of us have been right on top of the wreck, had it open in record time only to see the loot vanish before our eyes, or to open the wreck only to find it already empty and empty at speeds that are probably being accomplished by some sort of macro? (i guess)

In any case, the loot from the mothership should go to the fleet that gets the win, they are the ones who've worked for it and they are the ones who deserve it.

Maybe a spawn container that can only be opened by a member of the winning fleet, then from that point, it becomes an inter-fleet issue.

Just a thought.
Thanks
K.S.

Mikkaras
Amarr
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:20:00 - [355]
 

Darth Mustache has apparently been the one to get a large number of the mothership drops - or possibly a friend or alt of his who then gives it to him. He then gloats about it in local and puts up "obvious scam" courier contracts. Please investigate for potential use of looting macros.

Also, it really would make sense to have a spawn container or mission loot container of some sort which could only be opened by a member of the fleet which was credited with the victory. Perhaps the mothership drops a can when it dies which nobody else can open or destroy, or a certain location in the site becomes a container?

Fyrgen Hith
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:21:00 - [356]
 

Some needs to be changed about who and maybe how loot is gotten from the SC Wreck, for the past 8 SC kills I have been in on a guy called Darth Mustache has gotten the loot never turns red to any of the fleet member either. Whether its a macro or simply an exact method something needs to be changed. Options I've heard are as following:
A) Concord lands and either 'locks' the wreck so only the FC/Boss can loot it.
B) Anyone who loots the wreck that isn't in the fleet gets a GCC of sorts to the entire winning Fleet and everyone who loots the wreck(including the winning fleet) can't doing anything for 5-10 seconds.
C) Concord Loots the wreck and contracts it to the FC/Boss.

Whichever way it gets changed it needs to get changed, people are droping out from the High-sec incursions because only one person is getting loot and it simply isn't worth it to keep doing if this doesn't change.

Daniel Jackson
Caldari
Planet Watchers
Posted - 2011.02.11 02:56:00 - [357]
 

Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 11/02/2011 03:01:31

OK First off The Reward System for killing the mom

the armor fleet is getting the reward most of the time theres only been 2 times where the shield fleet got the reward

a fix for this is give a % based system so that if 1 fleet gets more dps of the other the reward should be splilit like example 80/20 60/40 etc so that all fleets get a share


2ED, the research centers in the hq sites are far more powerful then the rebirth facility

3rd , sometimes in the override transfer array when you hack the logistical array sometimes it keeps reping the sanshas

4th, there should be more highsec incursions rather then 0.0 since 0.0's hardly never get done nor most of them ever have any 1 even attempting at them and there are Wayy more people in highsec that actualy are interested inthis.

5th, make the influence last longer with out raising the diffaculty of the npcs, so we can actualy have time to get logi pilots and do more plexing


6th, why are most incursions in amarr space? ive seen only about maby 2 or 3 caldari 1's and like 50 amarr 1's (estamate number for amarr saying there has been a insaign ratio) distrabute them out more x.x

Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.11 03:31:00 - [358]
 

Edited by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath on 11/02/2011 03:41:51
Originally by: Daniel Jackson
Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 11/02/2011 03:01:31

OK First off The Reward System for killing the mom

the armor fleet is getting the reward most of the time theres only been 2 times where the shield fleet got the reward

a fix for this is give a % based system so that if 1 fleet gets more dps of the other the reward should be splilit like example 80/20 60/40 etc so that all fleets get a share



o/ Daniel :)

I've been in a few where the shield fleets have out DPS'd the armor fleets, this is to be expected when the whole point of the mom site is to put as much dps on the mom as possible..
It will vary and switch back and forth between the different types of fleets.

The deciding factor there is primarily cohesion and planning...
A good logistics scheme is tantamount to staying alive, if you die you can't shoot mom, a concerted effort with each person knowing what their job is and doing it will produce the desired results, you also need support ships to cover the larger vessels while they are at their task.. all of these are things that most people know, but are sometimes easier said than done.

Originally by: Daniel Jackson
Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 11/02/2011 03:01:31
5th, make the influence last longer with out raising the diffaculty of the npcs, so we can actualy have time to get logi pilots and do more plexing


6th, why are most incursions in amarr space? ive seen only about maby 2 or 3 caldari 1's and like 50 amarr 1's (estamate number for amarr saying there has been a insaign ratio) distrabute them out more x.x



I couldn't agree more.. on some days we expect to see an incursion finished faster than others, for example, on the weekends there are generally more players on, so it's understood that they won't last as long, but 4.5 hours?, that's way too short a time for people to rally, so I think it's a good point to make the reduction not quite so fast, however not just so that we can make more isks, but so that more players get the opportunity to participate.

Now, "I've" not seen a single incursion into Minmatar space, not to say that there may not have been one, but I've not seen it and I know many folks who cannot fly in amarr space, so they are stuck on the sidelines waiting for one to spawn in a system they can travel to without having Sansha and the navy on their backs.

If we want all players to be able to participate, take the risks, and enjoy the rewards of fighting off Kuveki(spl) and crew, then there should be some sort of modifier to faction standings in and en-route to an incurred system, or more incursion spawns in Minmatar, Gallente, and Caldari space with the later being easier to do than the former.

Just a though..
Good Post Dan..

K.S.


Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.02.11 03:40:00 - [359]
 

Originally by: Kerfira


I logged on when this incursion was getting reasonably close to finished, and the incursion chat was pretty pathetic. First of all there was a couple of fleets being gathered for the mommyship, but that of course meant that these people were all concentrating on getting that fleet together, NOT on actually getting to the point where mommy would appear.

As others have said, there should be a delay between reaching 0% and mommy appearance. Maybe the delay should be a random number of minutes (15-45) during which the incursion HAVE to be kept at or below 1%....




I can't speak for other fleets, however "our" fleet was not only forming up, but working on sites at the same time to bring the influence down, but you are right... at times, there is nothing being done to trigger mom because many are simply in preparation for mom.

Many folks I have spoken with/heard agree with the MOM spawn delay idea because if you're running a site and mommy gets home?, then you all have to run to kill mommy and you've not gotten any reward for the last site you were working on... alternately, you "can" stay and finish it while everyone else fights mom... But we all know that's simply not going to happen.

o/
K.S.


Zhim'Fufu
Posted - 2011.02.11 05:32:00 - [360]
 

Next patch. Cut rewards and increase amount of effort needed to cull an incursion. Then spawn in it the forge. Very Happy


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