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blankseplocked [Reality Check] Bots, Macros and CCP
 
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Dream Nine
Posted - 2011.03.08 06:32:00 - [91]
 

I saw about 200 (not exaggerating) bots running missions in Eitu the other day. All magnate frigs. Scanned their cargo, mission items. Been going nonstop for days, reported all for EULA violations but they are still going.

Dream Nine
Posted - 2011.03.08 06:46:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Eleonora Skye
Support. There is also actually a lot of "Market" bots at Jita actually, easy to spot, very active and still not banned.

Sometimes you manage to f*** them, but in the end, they always win...


Actually 'market' bots are good for everyone, they create liquidity and make the game better for both buyers and sellers.

4C 4F 5645
Rogue Drone Systems
Posted - 2011.03.08 06:53:00 - [93]
 

People who say "bots can't be found" don't know what they're saying. The CCP client could very well detect popular bot clients in memory on log in and report them to the server.

The way to deal with bots from CCP's part is to:
- take a good look at the major popular bots existing today
- secretly release a client patch that detects those clients in memory (along with Incarna or whatever)
- do nothing for 3-6 months while collecting evidence of botting
- do a massive ban of accounts in one go (that works very well because it sends the botters into a panic)
- sue the company making the bots if they're selling them

Repeat as necessary. That's been proven to work well for other games.
You can't stop all botting. But you can do a lot better than they're doing now.

Dream Nine
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:04:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: 4C 4F 5645
People who say "bots can't be found" don't know what they're saying. The CCP client could very well detect popular bot clients in memory on log in and report them to the server.

The way to deal with bots from CCP's part is to:
- take a good look at the major popular bots existing today
- secretly release a client patch that detects those clients in memory (along with Incarna or whatever)
- do nothing for 3-6 months while collecting evidence of botting
- do a massive ban of accounts in one go (that works very well because it sends the botters into a panic)
- sue the company making the bots if they're selling them

Repeat as necessary. That's been proven to work well for other games.
You can't stop all botting. But you can do a lot better than they're doing now.



Good arguments, but it doesn't ban custom written bots that RMT rings might be using.

Phosphofuctokinase 1
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:53:00 - [95]
 

There is a corp of bots down in the low sec around ingunn and gusandall that do nothing but run courier missions 23/7. Nothing.

I sent in a petition about it, and did they get banned? Nope. CCP doesnt care about bots.

Flaming Lies
Posted - 2011.03.09 15:38:00 - [96]
 


DBxGooba
Posted - 2011.03.09 18:59:00 - [97]
 

Supported

Schwarzes Blut
Posted - 2011.03.09 19:11:00 - [98]
 


sir gankalot
Posted - 2011.03.09 21:57:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: 4C 4F 5645

- sue the company making the bots if they're selling them


Does that have any chance? I wonder if it is illegal anywhere to make a program like that. It's not malware like ur general trojan or something...

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.10 04:01:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: 4C 4F 5645
People who say "bots can't be found" don't know what they're saying. The CCP client could very well detect popular bot clients in memory on log in and report them to the server.

The way to deal with bots from CCP's part is to:
- take a good look at the major popular bots existing today
- secretly release a client patch that detects those clients in memory (along with Incarna or whatever)
- do nothing for 3-6 months while collecting evidence of botting
- do a massive ban of accounts in one go (that works very well because it sends the botters into a panic)
- sue the company making the bots if they're selling them

Repeat as necessary. That's been proven to work well for other games.
You can't stop all botting. But you can do a lot better than they're doing now.



Bolded the part that I'm going to address - scanning a computer's memory is something that a lot of people consider and invasion of privacy, so it's not so simple.

One of the issues with botting is that we don't really know exactly what it is that CCP are doing. Some of this is because if they publish how they are detecting bots, then bots will evolve to behave differently. Some of it is for privacy reasons. One thing I will push if elected to CSM is simply publishing updates showing that they are actually doing something.

Cruthensis
Gallente
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2011.03.10 14:15:00 - [101]
 

A simple idea to reduce the profitability of botting


Bots can currently be detected by some quite simple metrics - number of ships killed, amount of ore mined etc etc. Bots tend to produce numbers which are highly unlikely or effcectively impossible to have been player driven. The server should mark these characters [Potential bot]

Having been marked [Potential bot] the character will, upon random encounters with NPCs (0.0 belt rats, for instance) discover that the belt rats are hitting rather hard on that occasion. Really hard. So hard, in fact, that their ship(s) are destroyed, and fast.

The won't know when it will happen, but happen it will and they will lose the ship and their bot will fly around in a pod attempting to activate weapons which aren't there. This will have the effect of massively reducing the profitability of botting.

The engine which drives this could be geared to increase the frequency of "death spawns" over time, on any character which continues ratting/mining/missioning 23/7.

(You may be concerned that genuine players could be caught out by this. They can petition and explain their case, but how many "players" do you know who are active at the keyboard for more than 8 hours a day, every day? The bot operators may petition too of course, but they just earn themselves fast-track permaban for wasting GM time. Word would spread fast enough.)

Paul Mustaka Hekard
Posted - 2011.03.12 18:22:00 - [102]
 

Agreeing the CSM should push/challenge CCP on this issue. One of the selling points of EvE is the player driven economy. With the massive influx of isk that bots can achieve, their existence in game threatens the legitimacy of that economy. Since warfare (including SOV) is directly linked to the economy, this issue calls into question whether EvE is really a competitive game or not. If it continues to be dominated by botting, I certainly will be playing it less and probably drop down to one sub. CCP should take this issue seriously.

two days
Posted - 2011.03.13 18:09:00 - [103]
 

supported

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.03.13 20:02:00 - [104]
 

If botting is really as bad as you suggest, (and, as bad as it appears from my own observations); how many accounts out of 400+ K, do you think would be left, after you banned them all?

Kumi Katana
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.14 06:10:00 - [105]
 

I often said it, and I guess ill be saying it again, bots are bad. They need to be made illegal and owners banned if they do not take their bots offline. EVE was not designed to have bots running around doing the job you should be doing as capsuleer, it takes the fun out which causes goons in the long run. Besides that, specially new capsuleers are victim of bots since they can not mine as fast and much as a bot. So bots are very unfair in that as well. Specially if you know that some bots are actually mining in fleets (multiple retrievers, hulks or similar ships).

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.03.18 07:15:00 - [106]
 

Ever think that the Bots belong to CCP and are being used to control the economy? One way to improve PLEX purchase rate is to make an economy that you can't win in, or make it very difficult to do so.

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.03.18 07:29:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Zleon Leigh on 18/03/2011 07:38:33
Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 28/01/2011 14:20:04
<snip>

Another option would be to have the client look for those programs on the PC when it launches, and if it detects them, delete them.




You can't delete them, but you can report existence to user and refuse to run. Many games do this.

Support given

Cpt Bradley
Posted - 2011.03.18 19:03:00 - [108]
 

The 23/7 thing to me should be easy... if someone is playing 23/7 for more than 1 day they are either
1) botting
or
2) account sharing


Both should result in a ban right? Why not just start there and see what happens CCP?

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:17:00 - [109]
 

Supported 100%. Bots are a problem in any MMO, but especially in a game with a supposed "player run economy". I know it's an impossible dream to get rid of them entirely, but CCP could surely be doing a much better job than they are today.

Roelof Kremer
Posted - 2011.03.25 13:18:00 - [110]
 


my support.

Kumi Katana
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.03.25 13:27:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: James Tiberius Kirk
Everyone knows there are lots of bots. Most of us can spot miner macros on high sec pretty quickly, they are everywhere. They are so many of them in fact, it almost changes the focus of player events (Hulkageddon).

Most veterans also knows there are TONS of botters in null sec. Up to the point where it becomes common knowledge. Nicknames (AAA Botters, Legion of Botters), bad puns (Drone Regions, get it?) or mottos (What happens in Venal, stays in Venal) are all products of rampant botting.

CCP's stand, at least officially, is that botting is illegal and punishable by bannings. They say they are doing the best they can, yet we see more and more complaints about botting. If it is so easy for us to spot and prove that someone is botting/macroing, how hard could it be for CCP to assign 1 GM to hunt bots. Its not exactly a secret where they do this stuff Rolling Eyes.

There are lots of threads about botting and CCP is certainly is avoiding them. There's only one method of inquiry that they cannot ignore, and that is CSM.

Thumbs up if you think next CSM should bring this situation to the table and ask why is CCP openly allowing bots to flourish.

Note: As a person who's income is coming from market games or mission running, I have no direct quarrel with bots as one might assume. However, I am concerned about the current and future state of my favorite game.


botting is sure a problem, however I never seen any GM act when a bot is around. All bots i seen, are still out there! Worse yet, trying to kill the bots yourself ends in getting concorded. Meaning you cant do anything about them nor anything is done to get them out of EVE. I suggest CCP should start banning the main accounts of those that use any bot, may it be 1 now and then, or using many bots all the time. I dont care, just ban the main accounts!

Athena reekoo
Posted - 2011.04.12 13:14:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Eden Love

Honestly, I wish all you idiots would stop with these posts all they do is raise the visibility of just how easy botting is in this game and more likely encourages more people to bot who'd never have considered it otherwise..


security by obscurity is no security at all. so dont even bother with that argument.

Elena Stormbringer
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.04.12 13:30:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 12/04/2011 13:29:59
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote:
Are you seriously suggesting there are players out there who play 23/7 ratting in null sec, then warping off and cloaking up when someone enters the system?
There are people who play 8 hours a day and leave EVE running overnight while AFK cloaked. I used to do that.
Most cases it only looks like the player is 23/7, when in reality it's probably 6 hours or less and AFK the rest

Quote:
Are you really suggesting there are players out there with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and fly an industrial through low sec all day every day 23/7?
I know a lot of people who use alts for carebearing - alliance members in fleet ops, who switch to other chars while they are waiting for something to happen.

Quote:
Are you implying that all those players with zxbdqkl names who mine ice belts in high sec 23/7, with no corp history, barely 3 months old, and warp back and forth from station to belt repeatedly in their pod after they get ganked aren't bots?
Some of those could be alts of real people

I'm not defending bots, and I'm not claiming there are no bots. Neither do I care for carebears and stupid people. I'm just pointing out a simple fact - it's not easy to distinguish between a botter and a mindless carebear. CCP cannot afford to make the mistake, even if there's only 5% chance the player is legit, they can't make a move. They gotta be 100% sure. And it's sure hard to get those last 5% of certainty.

I am for modifying the game to make it either to grief botters and carebears.
Removing local in 0.0 would be a good start.


AAA defending their bots!

Genetically Different
Posted - 2011.04.12 14:14:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz

Essentially bots are here to stay, CCP needs to however make it a lot more difficult for them to function, I guarantee you that if after one patch the UI keeps resetting to defaults for everyone after each launch of the client, that the mineral market will suddenly sky rocket in prices.



I LOVE THAT, Imagine how angry the botters would be.. LOL..
If they had to reposition or reprogram every patch..
Oh Oh Oh... make it so EVERY account has to be set individually..

ACTUALLY !! make the windows open in DIFFERENT positoins every time.
or randomly move slightly from time to time.. that would bugger a bot easy.

I could live with the slight inconvieiance

Maryna
Posted - 2011.04.12 15:46:00 - [115]
 

I really wonder what would happen to the market, resources and economy if all the bots got banned.... it would become like waterworld... youd be recycling your own ****.

Miso Hawnee
Posted - 2011.04.12 18:07:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan


Another option would be to have the client look for those programs on the PC when it launches, and if it detects them, delete them.





like boot.ini? I'd rather not trust CCP to shepherd my files. These guys can't even port open source forums without falling on their face.


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