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amarian arch
Posted - 2011.01.25 17:29:00 - [61]
 

cant i just install visual studio and send you the debug info?

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.25 22:36:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
I don't think I've ever seen a request to submit a report, and I've had quite a number of different annoying crashes while dualboxing. Most often when 1 client's done something with fleet or jumping a wormhole that's caused a session change, but there's been other things where clicking a pilot to lock them or other seemingly regular/unrelated actions have ruined some pvp for all.

Can you confirm if there's a setting in XP/Windows that suppresses all/these specific types of reports you desire?

I'm afraid it's been quite a while since I used XP last. But there is a global override to just not submit them, but I do not believe it's on by default.

On the subject of XP, some people have started speculating about why the second screenshot in the picture has no XP listed. The reason is very simple: The specific crash signature which is shown, simply doesn't happen on XP. Crashes that occur on a Vista-based system(Vista, 7), sometimes aren't the same that occurs on a XP-based system(XP, 2003). In fact, just the other day I was dealing with a crash that happened in the part of the Trinity engine which deals with curves, which *only* happened on XP and 2003.

So it's not a case of us just ignoring XP, XP never crashing or anything like that. It's just that every crash is different, and the specific crash signature shown, simply doesn't crash on XP in a live environment. That's all there is to it Smile

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.25 22:37:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Sarmatiko
Thanks this is very intresting!
After Incursion 1.1 been deployed, my client started crashing after exit with windows crash report pop-ups (never heard about Winqual before today so i always ignored this) So now i know what to do next time this happens Wink

Did you mean Incursion 1.1.1 by any chance? Smile

Either way, do make sure to submit it next time. It'll land on my desk faster that way.

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.25 22:42:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Sevarus James
Curious here. You indicate that wine/crossover users are reported as windows crashes, but without a mechanism to report the 'splat', are we just "noise" that was referred to?

Completely understand the "non-support" side of this, but with ARM, Google chrome (OS/hardware) and things such as android which all use linux under the hood, any ideas about support going forward?


Especially the ARM stuff as MS is seriously falling behind the 8-ball with that.

(I was irritatingly reminded of this stuff when attempting to use EVE voice/vivox with the Chrome browser, and it burped/refused to install because it wasn't "windows".)



Ok. I'm sorry that my initial comment on the Wine/Crossover subject was vague. Let me explain a bit more in depth:

Our "Client stats", as we call it, only cares about if the client is downloaded as a Windows or Mac client. So if a Wine/Crossover, which thinks that it's actually just a Windows machine by nature, crashes, it will register to our client statistics as a crash.

I do however not believe that Wine/Crossover has any sort of way of submitting crash reports to Winqual. So we wouldn't observe the crashes there.

As for ARM support and Wine/Crossover, that's way outside the scope of what I deal with I'm afraid. But I wouldn't expect anything on that front.

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.25 22:56:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: amarian arch
cant i just install visual studio and send you the debug info?

If you have Visual Studio installed and manage to catch a crash with it, please do save out the minidump and file a bug-report with it, and put my name in the subject of the report. That'd be excellent.

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.25 23:25:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: CCP Stillman
In fact, just the other day I was dealing with a crash that happened in the part of the Trinity engine which deals with curves, which *only* happened on XP and 2003.


That sounds like something in the Windows UI (or graphics core) that got fixed in Vista, Win7 et al.

-> Have you had any luck locating the actual issue (in this case)?

-> Have you had any good experience in bringing such problems to Microsoft's attention, so they can either consider a backport (when quick to fix), or at least give you more details so that you can plan around it somehow?


Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.26 01:52:00 - [67]
 

CCP Stillman, did you see HawkTT and my posts regarding bugreporting on page 2 of this thread?
I'm sure it's outside of your personal field of work, but would you be able to point this thread to the right people in your office? Would this be the web-team or the QA-guys+gals?

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.26 11:05:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Alain Kinsella
Originally by: CCP Stillman
In fact, just the other day I was dealing with a crash that happened in the part of the Trinity engine which deals with curves, which *only* happened on XP and 2003.


That sounds like something in the Windows UI (or graphics core) that got fixed in Vista, Win7 et al.

-> Have you had any luck locating the actual issue (in this case)?

-> Have you had any good experience in bringing such problems to Microsoft's attention, so they can either consider a backport (when quick to fix), or at least give you more details so that you can plan around it somehow?



For this particular issue, a large part of the code at fault was already being refactored heavily. That refactoring went out as a part of Incursion 1.1.

So we're of course still gonna monitor it. But the code had so substantial changes, which would most likely fix the issue, so we'd rather wait and see before doing a knee-jerk fix on code we haven't seen running live Smile

CCP Stillman

Posted - 2011.01.26 11:06:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
CCP Stillman, did you see HawkTT and my posts regarding bugreporting on page 2 of this thread?
I'm sure it's outside of your personal field of work, but would you be able to point this thread to the right people in your office? Would this be the web-team or the QA-guys+gals?

I did see both of your comment on the bug reporting system. I've referred it to the men and women in charge of that system, as I'm merely a consumer of that system rather than involved in decisions about it Smile

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.26 12:05:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: CCP Stillman
Originally by: Tres Farmer
CCP Stillman, did you see HawkTT and my posts regarding bugreporting on page 2 of this thread?
I'm sure it's outside of your personal field of work, but would you be able to point this thread to the right people in your office? Would this be the web-team or the QA-guys+gals?

I did see both of your comment on the bug reporting system. I've referred it to the men and women in charge of that system, as I'm merely a consumer of that system rather than involved in decisions about it Smile

Thx, hope something comes out of this..

PS: good job on keeping track of your dev blog comment thread. I'm impressed Cool

btxbmbr
Posted - 2011.01.26 14:41:00 - [71]
 

thx for your honesty. after a couple of days in eve, i d like to say some words…

well, you know, today i am (among others) a young mathematician, a scientist who spend too much time in eve. ;) but before that i manage/concept large it projects for german gov and institutes. of course, a mmo is different to this but maybe i know a bit about it management, elemental things you touch. you know, my projects were those where you lost 100k euro for every h you are offline.

as far as i can see you do your job very good. you seems to have a good staff. this depends of course on someone experienced or... some islandish beer, i dont know. many years hardened you.

so, first of all: i will not talk too much, i am sure that you are most experienced, and you made your own mmo experience too. what i might have to say then? how about an anonymous opinion, which should remain anonymous?

- a crash... well, its a crash then. it has never bothered me, and a normal user, who has even a problem with the city traffic or economic system, is often worried about so called failures in complex systems, sometimes too obstinate. but yes, tests are good, trivial: its part of company public affairs/politic stuff.

- never underestimate the inexperience of some programmers in complex systems (ie system theory); i watched it over years: some people recognize big things as small (blind for differences between systems with 100 and 100 mil nodes, for example, or between a team of 3 and 300). they might be fast, but they are bad architects and frameworkers, and you lose if you use them wrong.

- never talk to customers of "errors", "failures" or "crashes", or too much of it. the meaning of words does not sit in your good intentions or the words itself. use "bug" or better "unusual" instead. i saw such crazy situations where too genuine programmers talk to customers (executives) about "crashes". in one case... a (although good) programmer provoke a single call which starts a call chain, and before i knew it, i got calls from the mayor office to explain a so called "crash" and our progress. expensive naivity. materialists. machinists.

- even if you want to be fast: significant downtime must be scheduled generously. it is always better to quit before the deadline. it is a management failure when you delay patch/update dates. ever. there is no excuse for it, only in your patch plan or patch qa or update routine, or in management above: ressource management, whatsoever.

- i wonder that you got problems in patching from stage/test to live. you should change something. i had never problems like that. i had always a stage system (complete duplicate of live) where i patch first. then i upload (or often just hardlink/switch) from stage to live. there were no hot patches on live. and sure, in the last years i worked on clusters.

- what else? damn it, its snowing...

- do not trust apple gossip. its such a waste of time and ears. there are always myths about better security on macs, because of its obscurity/unpopularity, but if i am a hacker and need serious gov infos, i will be pleased when you use mac. if you have something to hide, never use a mac. i hacked macs before... cocoa/safari is cheese.

- i heard about account hijacking. ok, consider this: what kind of users were hijacked? were they experienced? if so, it maybe depends of 3rd party tools and not mails. it is easy to develop a backdoor tool with very useful infos... those little friends track your keyboard input. i did it 10 years ago, for fun. and... if i had the time, i would hack you, yea for fun, to help you, to show bugs. unfortunately, i have no. ;) (yea yea, i said nothing, i am a blender.) but... i would shoot first at your in-game-safari/chrome-browser, because its big as an open barn door.

- well, nothing more... i am sure that you have your own hierarchy and daily stuff, meetings, orga. it would be absurd and useless if i said something to this.

:)

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.01.26 16:45:00 - [72]
 

Wow, I was completely unaware of Winqual, I figured it was just crap Microsoft used to make patches to Windows later. Good to know the information is actually used by the app developers.

I guess I'm going to religiously submit those error reports now.

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2011.01.26 19:17:00 - [73]
 

It's good to know that the Devs actually read the feedback in the forums! Razz

As far as the "men and women in charge" are concerned, I could only hope that they will make some serious improvements in the Bug Reporting system, because I really feel pity for the Bug Hunters (who process the reports and interface the players) and for you the Devs (who are the "consumers" of those reports).

I could judge from my own exeprience with Service Desk systems & Web Support Portals, because I had to go through serveral different soultions (from different vendors) for my own business, before finding a decent one with real workflow engine, conversation threads, chat, screenshot editor (for adding "ballons" with text & highlighting) etc.

Good luck, and keep in mind - a good Bug Reporting portal will reduce your overhead and will increase the quality of your product / service greatly!

Originally by: CCP Stillman
Originally by: Tres Farmer
CCP Stillman, did you see HawkTT and my posts regarding bugreporting on page 2 of this thread?
I'm sure it's outside of your personal field of work, but would you be able to point this thread to the right people in your office? Would this be the web-team or the QA-guys+gals?

I did see both of your comment on the bug reporting system. I've referred it to the men and women in charge of that system, as I'm merely a consumer of that system rather than involved in decisions about it Smile

Funesta
Posted - 2011.01.27 19:00:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Btomo Cur
Wow. If it is really true that you appreciate bug reports, you should tell this to the people that handle them. Eve's bug reporting is the single most unhelpful thing I have ever seen in my life. I'd been assuming you told those folks to make the process painful on purpose, in hope of cutting down on bug reports.

If you're serious about wanting more bug reports, you need to start responding to them with something other than "Sorry, you didn't give us enough information, we're closing this" or "Sorry, we could not reproduce, we're closing this".


This, this, 1000 times this.

After the patch, I noticed a fairly minor bug.

I spent an hour poking through the help menu, then looking for a bug report forum, then googling "bug report eve online" before I found a forum thread that is only applicable to bugs that have sprung up since the patch. Luckily that applied to this bug, so I posted there.

If I have to resort to google to figure out how to submit a minor bug report, then your bug reporting process is broken. Fix up your in-game help menu to include a category for minor bug reports and major bug reports. If I want to tell you about a typo in a text description, or a problem with splitting stacks of items (my bug du Jour), it should be EASY. If I want to tell you about a client crash or a problem loading the character creator, it should be easy. I didn't even bother reporting numerous reproducible graphics problems because I can't figure out who to tell!

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.01.27 23:49:00 - [75]
 

Im still a little confused on how you track crashes on the Mac. Ive gotten quite a few recently, even one today after 1.1.2 was deployed. No crash reporter came up or anything. How do you know I crashed?

I read the blog from the cider folks. There is nothing in it about crash reporting. In fact the word "crash" does not even appear in that blog. How can transgamming fix crash issues when they get no crash reports?

leavcraft
Posted - 2011.01.28 02:29:00 - [76]
 

nice blog and a cogent discussion about a troubling issue. I was disappointed by the response I got after reporting recent desktop crashes as a result of using ALT Tab between my two account clients. In effect, I was told that EVE doesnt support dual clients, and also doesnt support Windows XP. I can post the eve mails i got in that regard. I happened to be in combat during one crash and when i got back in, one ship was safely idling in space and the other was dead. By way of explanation I was told that each of my ships may have been processed through the crash via a different server and as a result one was stuck in combat and the other set free.
I have not been reporting subsequent crashes, but they have been occuring since the recent updates and patches have gone in. I will gladly report them all, if in fact EVE does see the two client player as a reasonable condition and Windows XP as an operating system still used by a substantial number of gamers (given the disaster of vista )

regards,
leavwiz

Robdon
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.02.08 13:48:00 - [77]
 

Nice devblog, and good work on keeping up with replies.

I had no idea that info went to you, so I don't ever send it.

I will from now on :)

PS: Yes, the eve bug reporting tool and the BH people/replies need some work on :)


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