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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.01.24 21:42:00 - [31]
 

Crash and Burn... swiming in a pool...

Laughing

/c

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.01.24 21:46:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Chribba
Crash and Burn... swiming in a pool...

Laughing

/c


And the pool has a leak.

Morgals
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.01.24 21:46:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Morgals on 24/01/2011 21:51:18
Originally by: Iamien
Originally by: CCP Fallout
No one likes crashes. They are immersion breaking, and just plain annoying. But you can help us minimize the number of crashes players experience. How? CCP Stillman's newest blog has all the details.


So what your saying is, that Windows forwards our personal system information without our consent to any third party that claims the be the developer of an executable?

I always thought the bug reports were private correspondence from my computer's memory to Microsoft, guess I was wrong.


I thought so as well so never bothered with an EvE crash because why would Microsoft care...
Also it is a consent when you send it I believe.

Glad this was posted as I learned a lot.

Estimated Prophet
Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe and Trading Company
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.24 21:56:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Estimated Prophet on 24/01/2011 21:57:00
Originally by: Iamien
So what your saying is, that Windows forwards our personal system information without our consent to any third party that claims the be the developer of an executable?

I always thought the bug reports were private correspondence from my computer's memory to Microsoft, guess I was wrong.


Here's what my computer gathers for a crash report:

Quote:
Product
CCP ExeFile

Problem
Stopped working

Date
23/01/2011 10:39 AM

Status
Report Sent

Problem signature
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: ExeFile.exe
Application Version: 6.40.21.9061
Application Timestamp: 4d26e887
Fault Module Name: _trinity.dll
Fault Module Version: 6.40.22.2353
Fault Module Timestamp: 4d370450
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 001ee607
OS Version: 6.0.6002.2.2.0.256.1
Locale ID: 3081
Additional Information 1: fd00
Additional Information 2: ea6f5fe8924aaa756324d57f87834160
Additional Information 3: fd00
Additional Information 4: ea6f5fe8924aaa756324d57f87834160



If you can find any personal info in there, then you're doing better than me.

Also, I highly doubt it's "any third party" without any verification.

Yuda Mann
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:10:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Nemo deBlanc
So after reading this, here's my question:

Why can you not put some sort of code/program in place that can verify errors client side, and allow you to ascertain whether we're eligible for reimbursement?


This is why Chribba nailed it exactly on the head when he said reimbursements for downtime was a really bad idea. Once you start handing out free stuff you can never stop without causing riots. What started as a nice idea to make people happy has become something demanded and mandatory that will make them miserable more often than it will make them happy.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:18:00 - [36]
 

I don't think I've ever seen a request to submit a report, and I've had quite a number of different annoying crashes while dualboxing. Most often when 1 client's done something with fleet or jumping a wormhole that's caused a session change, but there's been other things where clicking a pilot to lock them or other seemingly regular/unrelated actions have ruined some pvp for all.

Can you confirm if there's a setting in XP/Windows that suppresses all/these specific types of reports you desire?

Estimated Prophet
Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe and Trading Company
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:27:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Can you confirm if there's a setting in XP/Windows that suppresses all/these specific types of reports you desire?


Yes, there is such a setting. Look in the Control Panel; in Vista it's called "Problem Reports and Solutions", XP should be similar.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:52:00 - [38]
 

Quote:
One of the most common causes for a crash in some of our different sub-systems such as the Carbon graphics-engine, called Trinity, is when code attempts to access memory which is no longer there.


I really, really hope this is not what it sounds like. Please make the monkeys code java or something, and keep them away from anything resembling C/C++ code.

Nikolai Kondratiev
Sphere Design Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:55:00 - [39]
 

Microsoft should really make it more clear that developpers can access the crash reports, I was also one of those users who thought they were just wiping their ass with reports from random applications Laughing

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:18:00 - [40]
 

Thanks this is very intresting!
After Incursion 1.1 been deployed, my client started crashing after exit with windows crash report pop-ups (never heard about Winqual before today so i always ignored this) So now i know what to do next time this happens Wink

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:31:00 - [41]
 

I happen to enjoy sending crash reports as it relieves some frustration.... I often re-produce them just because of that Laughing


Elsa Nietchize
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:47:00 - [42]
 

While the blog was a good read, it wasn't much I didn't already know.
However, the comments are sexy as hell. Keep up the tech speak on how IT companies can work together to make systems more robust.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.24 23:59:00 - [43]
 

Hm.. now I only need to find a way to cause POS or FW or the corpmenu to cause a crash and this repeatedly.. then it will get fixed? Twisted Evil

j/k
Nice read and informative, never thought those reports would help anyone but microsoft and even for them it looked useless to me.
Will definitely send some of those out then in the future.

Also, as has already been mentioned by some(one?).. please check the bugreporting feature and look into options to make it more accessible, transparent and maybe some reward?
Writing bugreports costs the user:
- time
- effort
- brain
And all he get's from this is a 'fixed in xyz, attached to a defect, closed'.
DO BETTER!


Look at what you did with Masstests. You thought of ways to make them more appealing to the average Joe (hand out SP on Sisi to play around with) and eased the access to Sisi (though, better rule enforcing should had gone hand in hand with that one) and finally gave timely feedback on the forums in a thread about your side of the equation.

As an engineer I can fully understand your POV. If there is a failure and you want to solve it, you need to know why and what happend.
So help and lure the customer to help you Wink

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.25 00:10:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 25/01/2011 00:21:00
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 25/01/2011 00:16:55
Just some thoughts here:

- show # of bug reports per day
- show top contributors
- award 'best bug report of the month'
- post exemplary bugreports in a devblog every now and then (every 4 months maybe? ..to show newcomers to the biz the ropes)
- hand out candy for bugreports leading to results
- offer special rewards for bugreports to something you're really interested in in a public spot
- x SP on Sisi for attached to a defect
- xx SP on Sisi for fixed in blabla
- rare xyz to play with for bugreport of the month (jovian ships or polaris frigate comes to mind) Twisted Evil
- aso..

You want them - we can deliver - price is up for debate Cool

Just another pro to this whole idea/proposal: people who complain they can't attend the masstests and are left out of the candy (SP on Sisi for helping) now have something to look forward too.. hehe Cool

Morast
Kuiper Belt Industries
Posted - 2011.01.25 00:15:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Iamien
Originally by: CCP Fallout
No one likes crashes. They are immersion breaking, and just plain annoying. But you can help us minimize the number of crashes players experience. How? CCP Stillman's newest blog has all the details.


So what your saying is, that Windows forwards our personal system information without our consent to any third party that claims the be the developer of an executable?

I always thought the bug reports were private correspondence from my computer's memory to Microsoft, guess I was wrong.


What you should ask, is how does MSFT know that the developer of said executable is actually the developer. It is actually called code signing. You have to pay an organization like verisign for a unique digital certificate. Which you then sign all of your exe's and dll's with before you ever ship them. Then you have to register that digital certificate with winqual and provide all sorts of information to them to prove you are you. For a product to have the lovely "Certified for Windows" applied to there boxes or websites, you have to go through this. Though digitally signing is only part of that whole process.

So if I made any sense in that babble, then you will understand why not just anyone can see any personal or computer data sent to msft.

One last point I can make, is that though the WinQual site isn't the most secure site I have to deal with. It is definitely in the top 5, truthfully probably number 2. (Our payroll services company is insane about security. Thank God!) I manage the WinQual compliance for my company.


Ay Liz
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.01.25 01:31:00 - [46]
 

Thats quite interesting. I always wondered how those crash reports you can send to Microsoft would help some strange North Korean software developer.. But i was never bored enough to do google research on the matter.

So i will submit those things now that i know the actual developers will get those reports.

But the most crashes i get for EVE are totally random and seem more like EVE just quit. Just straight to desktop and no message at all. Confused
At least i have maybe 1 every 2 weeks.. so it isn't really bothering me.

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2011.01.25 01:41:00 - [47]
 

Observations & Facts related to the Dev Blog

1) The screenshot from Winqual is for particular "pattern", which occured 2000+ times, right?. Windows 7 crashes represent 90.53% of all crashes with this pattern. Do you have any global statistics for average % of crashes by OS?

Why I am asking? My Laptop runs Windows XP SP3, while my Desktop runs Windows 7 x64.

When EVE crashes on my Laptop it usually brings BSOD or the laptop reboots.
When EVE crashes on my Windows 7 machine, it usually "crashes to desktop" and usually the desktop graphics (Windows Aero) is corrupted, but still, sometimes I am offered the option to submit Winqual report.
It must be that Windows 7 has more robust kernel and different driver model, so the OS is still (semi) functional even after severe application crash / memory violation.

2) With Incursion 1.1.0 and beyoud I get MUCH MORE crashes on my Windows 7 machine than on my Windows XP machine. Unfortunately, most of the crashes on Windows 7 end up with COMPLETE HANG or BSOD - something VERY, VERY rare for Windows 7 if you compare its stability to Windows XP...

3) I still have a registered Bug Report #104805 which stays "Unfiltered" for many weeks. I've RETESTED & RECONFIMRMED this bug with EVERY SISI BUILD SINCE #216614, AND:

a) The Bug is still reproducible even in Incursion 1.1.1. Build #222391.
b) There is a Bug in the Bug Report Form - Once submitted, I could not update the Build# field in the Bug report. Submitting a new report for each new build could be considered as spam, right?
c) Bug Report #104805 descibed a problem causing desktop graphics corruption, cursor corruption in EVE etc. If you don't restart the PC, sooner or later, it leads to COMPLETE HANG OR BSOD.

--- to be continued ---

Hawk TT
Caldari
Bulgarian Experienced Crackers
Posted - 2011.01.25 01:47:00 - [48]
 

Observations & Experience with Filling Bug Reports - FEEDBACK FOR CCP

Before introducing incentives for submitting Bug Reports, PLEASE, make it easier for the player to submit one! What I mean?

1) As a quick-and-dirty workaround, PLEASE, increase substantially the size limits of fields in the Bug Report Form!

2000 characters, are you kidding me? Very often the Bug Hunter working on the Bug Report wants to ask questions / clarify something and after 1-2 iterations it is not possible to keep the original description and/or reproduction steps, because THERE IS NO ROOM IN THE FIELDS.

2) You have to implement "Conversation Style" functionality for updating Bug Reports - Increasing the field limits WOULD BE A WORKAROUND, not a solution.

By having "Conversation" it will be quite clear what the current status of the Bug Report is, which party's turn is to update the Bug Report (e.g. - BH Asked the player to attach DxDiag.txt and waits for it OR the Player Clarified the reproductions steps and the BH is expected to check it out?).
Just think for a moment - if the BH attaches the Bug Report to a new Defect and the Bug Report fields have been edited and truncated multiple times, how the Devs Would be able to follow the whole "conversation"? There is no way for them, the "whole conversation" remains in the (vague) memories of the player and the BH...I am raising this issue, because it happened to me 2 times recentely...

3) Upgrade the Bug Report form so the player could attach MUTIPPLE FILES BEFORE SUBMITTING THE BUG REPORT.

You could ask Chribba to let you a helping hand and borrow you some scripts from EVE-FILES...Also, it would be nice if you put a "File Description" field for each attached file. Anyway your system renames the original file, so it is not quite intuitive both for the BH and for the players...

4) Improve and expand the available categories - there are NO INSTRUCTIONS regarding what each category means!

What does "Tech Art" means? A Porsche Tuning House or what?
"Not now" is another great example...
There is "PVE", but there is no "PVP"? Why?
Where is "Graphics" category?
Where is "Network" category?

Ok, some hints, based on my company's ITIL compliant Service Desk implementation:

a) Analyze manually all bug reports categorized as "Other" and "Not now" - you could find amazing ideas for new categories...

b) Analyze all bug reports that have been recategorized by BH or QA staff after submitting (of course, only if you keep historical track of what the original Category was, which you are supposed to do)

c) Introduce optional "Sub-categories" relevant to the available "Categories". This will give you better statistics over time. If you want to keep it simple, increase the number of available categories AND PUBLISH DESCRIPTIONS AND GUIDELINES for each Category.

d) Publish an example of a well prepared Bug Report

e) Clarify the various instructions about the attached file size limits - diffrent pages specify anything between 2MB and 16MB...

Things I've ever wondered about

1) Why don't you collect at least generic HW info for the players' PCs/ OSs? Steam does it, it is not so difficult. Use a third-party Open Source library and you could get nice statistics EXACTLY FOR YOUR PLAYER BASE.

2) Do you collaborate with AMD/ATI & NVidia regarding driver fixes / Application Profiles for SLI/Crossfire? I believe so, and I guess it would be beneficial if you encourage your players to WHINE NOT ONLY ON EVE'S FORUM, BUT ALSO ON AMD/NVIDIA Tech Support Forums...

3) Do you test EVE with AMD Eyefinity & NVidia Surrond setups? 2 x FHD / 3 x FHD displays? I guess not quite much - the GFX bugs are so obvious on such setups...

P.S. Just my 2 cents...

Sevarus James
Minmatar
Meridian Dynamics
Posted - 2011.01.25 04:22:00 - [49]
 

Curious here. You indicate that wine/crossover users are reported as windows crashes, but without a mechanism to report the 'splat', are we just "noise" that was referred to?

Completely understand the "non-support" side of this, but with ARM, Google chrome (OS/hardware) and things such as android which all use linux under the hood, any ideas about support going forward?


Especially the ARM stuff as MS is seriously falling behind the 8-ball with that.

(I was irritatingly reminded of this stuff when attempting to use EVE voice/vivox with the Chrome browser, and it burped/refused to install because it wasn't "windows".)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.25 07:34:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/01/2011 07:42:14
I use Winqual for EVE almost every time I am prompted.
The problem is that it has a tendency to hang up the computers for a long time if the crash happened when you were using more than 1 client at a time and one crashed.

Until the the report is sent the crashed client will not close completely, so using up memory and the Winqual program use up PC resources. In some situation the can be critical , especially as you don't know if the server has acknowledged the crash of if your ship is still there in a danger zone and what is/are the other account/s doing.

So, probably when it would be most useful to send the report, you say NO to save time and check the actual situation of your ships.

A little afterthought that maybe you can pass up to Windows: the Winqual often appear behind the open window (I use normally windowed mode), so it hang up the system and at the same time it is not visible. Correcting that could probably increase the number of report sent.

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.01.25 09:59:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Deakin Frost
I never understood why some games want to clean up their memory allocations when exiting.

Anarchy Online is/was another offender of this, especially because it took so goddamn long. When a process exits, Windows cleans up behind you. Faster and better than you can, too.

/facepalm
in theory they should clean up as they go - in fact you end up with lots of memory fragmentation if you don't - this can lead to memory leaks or just more and more memory assigned to the app, bigger page files etc. [slows down your machine - which is seen when you exit]

some things are harder to track than others - depending on how things interact ....

Marcus D'Eriellius
Gallente
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.01.25 11:18:00 - [52]
 

From the blog:
Quote:
In this case, a clear set of reproduction steps were present, which made verification and testing a fix something that could be done very quickly. But in most cases, we have little information to go on. We get the occasional bug report (which we greatly appreciate, keep them coming!) which we can sometimes reproduce.


Yesterday I came across a reproducible bug that allowed me to bookmark the exact centre of the sun (x=0, y=0, z=0 in system) and warp there. The sun is quite heavy compared to my covops Surprised so I bounced at several billion m/s. Epic permanent safespot Very Happy since I bounced to a few AU of the sun in a different direction every time.

Being a good capsuleer I opened a bug report. Now here's the problem. While I could reproduce this bug all day long (and still can) the specific circumstances mean that this bug will almost certainly sort itself out at downtime. I don't run the logserver by default when I play so I had no logs to attach to the report. Equally, my fleet that I was scouting for wanted me to move on so I couldn't really hold up the alliance's game time while I restarted the client and went through all the steps again in order to generate the log.

How about you have a team of bug-hunters (not the usual copy and paste "our logs show nothing" GMs but people who actually know what they are doing) monitoring a bug-hunter channel in game so that I can quickly get hold of one, explain in general terms what the bug is and, if it's a bug that needs more data gathered, explain in private convo to the bug hunter how they can use whaterver internal tools you like to gather the data you need while I get on with playing? The result would be a much more comprehensive bug report that would give the devs a fighting chance to nail the bug in one go.

As it stands I fully expect that by the time my bug report is read in several days I'll get the usual "unable to reproduce, please refile with more data" response. The current system really does not encourage anyone to bother reporting bugs. It almost feels like a battle to just get the devs/GMs/bug-hunters to actually take you seriously.

I realise this doesn't relate to a crash as such, but since CCP Stillman is taking an interest in this thread there's a slim chance that we can get something done about this.

Much love,

Marcus (who actually cares about bugs, and reports them but gets disheartened by the responses)

Elisa Fir
Posted - 2011.01.25 11:29:00 - [53]
 

I think it would help to be a bit more nice to people reporting bugs.

I recently reported a bug (client crash to desktop), the answer was:
"The problem you have described as an intended game feature, and not a bug."

Hey, how can crashing to desktop ever be an intended feature? My guess the bug was 'filtered' in this manner because my operating system (win2k) is officially not supported. But still, I would still like to at least receive a normal response.

The "We don't care"-response is certainly not motivating me to send any more bug reports.

StuRyan
Posted - 2011.01.25 13:12:00 - [54]
 

Your logs still show nothing though, just saying. Very Happy

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.25 13:15:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Marcus D'Eriellius
As it stands I fully expect that by the time my bug report is read in several days I'll get the usual "unable to reproduce, please refile with more data" response. The current system really does not encourage anyone to bother reporting bugs. It almost feels like a battle to just get the devs/GMs/bug-hunters to actually take you seriously.


QFT

I politely raged at the December Summit about how frustrating the EVE bug-reporting system is. I've got one current bug-report that, despite containing a video showing the bug in operation, gets repeatedly filtered as not reproducible (despite the fact that I can elicit it in a few attempts).

And let us not forget that CCP really didn't have much awareness of the module-sticking bug(s) until Vuk Lau circumvented the bug-reporting process at the June Summit by playing a MM training video for people. There is simply no way a bug like that can get through the current bug-reporting process.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2011.01.25 13:16:00 - [56]
 


Mac user chiming in, since the 'feature' that was collecting data for TG when the Mac client crashed was removed (it never worked properly), what can we do now to report bugs?

I had a really, really nasty crash a few days ago in which 4 open apps got nuked including the 'Finder' when the EVE client crashedEvil or Very Mad. Needles to say that is extremely poor behavior from the EVE client and I wasn't happy at all that my unsaved works in progress died alongside the client.Confused

Is there anything valuable to be found in the crash logs from the 'console messages -> System Diagnostic Reports'?
How about the crash logs from the 'system profiler'? Would that be any help?

Also will the crash log reporting function (that never worked) be put back in rather soon™?

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.01.25 15:26:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Estimated Prophet
Here's what my computer gathers for a crash report:

Quote:
snip


If you can find any personal info in there, then you're doing better than me.


Originally by: bonesbro

When something crashes, Windows captures the callstack, the set of "function foo called function bar called function baz, and baz crashed in this way at that memory offset". Then it takes a unique hash of that callstack and checks with the watson servers to see if that callstack has been reported. If it has, it just +1s it. If not, it reports the callstack as well as the memory allocated by each function (a "minidump"). It is also possible for the application's developer to say "I need more information about this particular crash" which can include a larger set of the app's memory. I don't remember whether it can ever read anything outside the application's memory, and I am sure that you do get asked before it sends along anything extra.


how is this not submitting potentially personal information to Microsoft? let's say the eveclient crashes on you trying to open an evemail - in that case it would be entirely plausible that (part of) the evemail is sent to Microsoft as part of the crash report.

Microsft itself alerts you to that issue and tells you to stay away from the crash reporting functionality of you don't like this.

Originally by: http://oca.microsoft.com/en/dcp20.asp
Reports might unintentionally contain personal information, but this information is not used to identify you or contact you. For example, a report that contains a snapshot of memory might include your name, part of a document you were working on, or data that you recently submitted to a website. If you are concerned that a report might contain personal or confidential information, you should not send the report.


Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.01.25 15:36:00 - [58]
 

Crashes are annoying, but a new feature of crashes for me on windows are that the client tries its hardest to stay alive after a crash, refusing to die.

It is now popping up messages such as: you have ejected successfully to your capsule, you cannot perform this action and other cool pop-ups that used to be cured by a simple ctrl-Q, but now requires my switching to desktop and right click and close on the eve instance.

why have you removed the ctrl-q to quit/exit so now I have to hit escape then quit or logout?

Logout also seems to bring up two new clients rather than just restarting one client.

Its little "features" like these that make me confident CCP Quality assurance does everything they can for us, the players. Unfortunately their competence means they do very little or huge amounts depending on the quality delivered to them. So thanks for this blog that actually tells me the player how my experience has improved when it hasn't.

Marcus D'Eriellius
Gallente
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.01.25 15:39:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Aquana Abyss
why have you removed the ctrl-q to quit/exit so now I have to hit escape then quit or logout?


Check your keyboard shortcuts in the esc menu. The default setting for quit isn't Ctrl+q anymore.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.01.25 15:46:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Marcus D'Eriellius
Originally by: Aquana Abyss
why have you removed the ctrl-q to quit/exit so now I have to hit escape then quit or logout?


Check your keyboard shortcuts in the esc menu. The default setting for quit isn't Ctrl+q anymore.


Yes I figured it was a change because of the shortcuts, but why not keep that one as ctrl-Q considering it gets probably tens of thousands of uses per day or more?


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