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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.01.22 18:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 22/01/2011 18:44:32

Over the past week or so I have had some interesting conversations regarding the usage of certain... well lets call them "Shunned" PVP tactics. This post is intended to open a public discussion on these topics and hopefully gather some decent feedback before it become a flaming rampage.



Neut RR [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]


Some of the best PVP establishments in EVE reject this tactic [although, granted not all] The issue becomes the surprise factor of a Logistics ship (or ships) that appear at range that you did not know was there.

Immoral Factoid: You cannot kill the buggers before they are on grid and repairing.
Sympathy For The Devil: They are extremely easy to nullify if they warp in at range (which they do 99% of the time) You can also wardec the target corp/alliance in most cases.



IMO: If there is an in game mechanic to nullify Logistics at range, then there are tactics that can be used to deal with them. If these tactics are not widely used, and if how to kill Logistics are not common knowledge... IMHO,it's hardly worth raging over.





KM Denial [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]

Before your capital ship dies you log off, if you have aggression and you can tank for 15 min you simply disappear. Alternatively you can self-destruct and deny the other guy a KM.

Immoral Factoid: Your basically dead, your cheating the victor out of a KM.
Sympathy For The Devil: CCP can't tell if you just happened to DC, while tackled, while dieing in an expensive ship... after hitting Ctr-Q. Also a self-destruct button is a self-destruct and thus is working as intended. They do it on Star Trek all the time right?


IMO: if you have enough ships to kill said capital ship before the timer runs out it will still die. So there is a legitimate in game counter present (and 0.0 blobs are commonplace)

Regarding the self-destruct = no KM, well, I guess that you could do the same thing. The difference is that a ship has died and no KM has been generated. Even if it were only a Loss on your own killboard. IMHO this could use some tweaking. Even if the enemy does not get credit for the kill it is still a loss inured while combat aggression was taking place, and thus should generate a loss mail of some kind.

(far as I know they do not... I may be wrong in this assumption?)




Log Off Traps [No Longer Deemed An Exploit By CCP, But Used To Be]


You invite a fight at a predetermined location while all your buddies are sitting in the log in screen. Once the fire works start, here comes the backup!

Immoral Factoid: The enemy cannot know how many combatants you have on the field, and thus, they cannot decide whether of not they want to engage.
Sympathy For The Devil: Unless you have a detailed watch list of every active fighter on their Killboard... this tactics is no different that having back up waiting at a stargate in the next system.


IMO: Everyone in EVE does this when they bait and gank the poor fool who fell for it. The only people who would know the difference are folks who use the watch list as an intel gathering tool. Since there is still a black screen, an E-warp to location and a small targeting delay once you land, this tactic is not really THAT different then playing I-gank-you-with-all-my-buddies-in-the-next-system games.

Also your own watch list will give you warning if there is a mass log in...

So, Rage? IMHO it's just a spin on a widely used tactic in game.



ECM Burst Causing Aggression At POS's [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]


Post is long so I'll make this quick.
There is no way for said pilot to see that they have aggression and thus no in game counter for this tactic. IMHO a simple notification would be a good idea.


Flame On!!!


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.01.22 18:32:00 - [2]
 

Reserved (Just In Case I Come Up With More)

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:06:00 - [3]
 

You neut RR argumentation is flawed.

Wardeccing is impossible against the hard-core abusers since they are in NPC corporations.
There is no need to warp at range when you can dock/jump with impunity even mid-cycle .. people who do come at range are obviously not too bright.
In an otherwise even fight a few cycles is all it takes for an outcome to go from 50/50 to "lol owned".

Just sayin' Smile

PS: Log-on traps are now condoned? Well that's a turn for the worse, guess the guy who came up with CCP's whole "unscoutable" thing has fallen out of favour. Eve is poorer for it if true.

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
PS: Log-on traps are now condoned? Well that's a turn for the worse, guess the guy who came up with CCP's whole "unscoutable" thing has fallen out of favour. Eve is poorer for it if true.



You read it wrong. It's the opposite.

Allant Doran
Amarr
Locus Industries
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:42:00 - [5]
 

Ialso don't think KM denial should even be up for discussion, nevermind a grey area.

If somebody can log-offski/self destruct before you can bring them down then you did NOT have the minimum required amount of DPS to kill them in that given situation meaning you do NOT deserve hte KM.

It's not even like KMs are a resource or bonus TO the killer. They're just a meta-game ****-measurement. This is EVE, somebody is just as entitled to deny others a KM as people are to gank anyone in highsec or use dubious tactics to scam and trick.

That is the core of EVE, being able to do things like that.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:42:00 - [6]
 

Well as far as I know, Log Off traps used to be a exploit but now are not.


Am I mistaken?

Conor Todaki
Pure Evil Warriors
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:50:00 - [7]
 

Neut RRs turn red to you if they rep someone who is agressed to you.

Mutant Caldari
Caldari
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:36:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Conor Todaki
Neut RRs turn red to you if they rep someone who is agressed to you.

Yet it doesn't aggress them so if you start shooting them, guess what. They can just dock/jump and then come right back into the fight to get a few more rep cycles off. Rolling Eyes

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:42:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 22/01/2011 20:48:53

Originally by: Allant Doran
Ialso don't think KM denial should even be up for discussion, nevermind a grey area.



Well, There is a difference between logging off and self-destructing. A self-destruct should generate a loss mail because it is in fact a loss. Even if the aggressors do not get a Killmail, a ship has still been lost while aggression was taking place.



Originally by: Mutant Caldari

Yet it doesn't aggress them so if you start shooting them, guess what. They can just dock/jump and then come right back into the fight to get a few more rep cycles off.



Non-neut RR logistics ships can do the same, thus this counter argument has nothing to do with neut RR at all. What you are stating is a (supposed?) flaw in current aggression mechanics, of which pertains to Remote Repair in general.


Thus it is not a valid argument for or against neut RR

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.22 20:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 22/01/2011 21:05:36
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Well as far as I know, Log Off traps used to be a exploit but now are not.


Am I mistaken?


Honestly I've never heard of it being an exploit... in 0.0 it was (and is) used for as long as I can remember (and I've been playing since 2005) and nobody I know ever got petitioned AFAIK.

That said the last point of the OP isn't exactly true since it (supposedly) has been fixed in the last patch.

EDIT: Ah well, while we're here might as well talk about the other 2 points.
Neut RR: Suck it up. Honestly, it may be a problem but logistics aren't impossible to beat... If you fight somebody without taking that into account that's your fault. Now, docking games on the other hand are quite lame and should be imho somewhat reduced, but that's another problem.

KM denial: why should I care? No really, KM padding is nice and all, but what really matters is that the enemy just lost a (possibly) costly and valuable asset. Do I need a piece of print to prove it? Nope. Job is done, move along. About logging off: you need to trace a line somewhere, you can't just simply keep a ship logged in forever if the guy was aggressed. 15 minutes is a fair enough time since, as history has proved time and time again, it's quite enough to kill even titans.

Dek Kato
Amarr
Delusions of Mediocrity
Posted - 2011.01.22 21:35:00 - [11]
 

None of these are anywhere near exploits. At all. Methinks you need to get use to PvP in EVE, because these are standard enough as tactics and any PvP worth his weight in trit thinks about them. Are some lame? Maybe, neut RR certainly destroys highsec wardecs for actual PvP.

Self destructing and killmails isn't an issue in my opinion. Mostly the only people who care are those who obsess over their killboards. Its dead, thats all I care about.

ECM burst was fixed.

But mostly, from the tone of your post, I'm going to call troll, because none of these are remotely new or in danger of starting some "flaming rampage", just the usual slow simmer of forum whines.

WitchKingOfAgamar
Posted - 2011.01.22 22:35:00 - [12]
 

NeutRR would be so easy to fix too. Just make it so that if a neutral target repairs a wt of a corporation during an engagement then that neutral target is fair game for the rest of the war.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.22 23:14:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 22/01/2011 23:14:19
Originally by: Allant Doran

It's not even like KMs are a resource or bonus TO the killer. They're just a meta-game ****-measurement.


Agreed.

In my mind, short of somehow hacking the gibson server, there is no way to "cheat" or be skeezy with killmails, because they shouldn't even be there in the first place. They serve no in game or in character function. They do not encourage any postive, community building behavior on any level. Perversely, they strongly discourage PVP, as most players are far more afraid of having a killmail generated from them than they want a killmail from someone else. Every time someone runs from an even or slightly uneven fight, I blame killmails.

In regards to self-destructing to avoid killmails, good on them. In character, I see it as calling for an abandon ship and saving little space people lives. Out of character I see it as the proper response to killmail *****s.

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.22 23:56:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
If somebody can log-offski/self destruct before you can bring them down then you did NOT have the minimum required amount of DPS to kill them in that given situation meaning you do NOT deserve hte KM.


NO.

NO.

All this thinking does is increase the size of blobs. "Blobs ruin the game, too many blobs waa waa waa" "Bring more DPS lolololol, obv you didn't bring enough people"

Logging off should NEVER SAVE A TACKLED SHIP. I don't care if occasionally a person gets a DC. If you get a DC in combat, your almost certain to die anyway, unless in a supercapital.

Tackle a titan/supercarrier, and it logs off, and vanishes in 60% armor. Bring a bigger blob next time. So obviously instead of 15 man roaming gangs, everyone should be in a 60 man roaming gang. Lets really blob everything in sight.

AtheistOfFail
AoF Lottery Services
Posted - 2011.01.23 00:24:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 23/01/2011 00:25:01
Neut RR [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]

It's funny, a full set of ec-300s will take of that problem easily.



KM Denial [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]

If you can't muster the DPS to kill my supercap in 15 minutes, you obviously don't want the kill. If you can't kill me in 2 minutes, you neither deserve/want the kill. Pretty simple idea actually.



Log Off Traps [No Longer Deemed An Exploit By CCP, But Used To Be]

Element of surprise. Part of a sandbox.




ECM Burst Causing Aggression At POS's [Not Deemed An Exploit By CCP]


AoE Weapons do the same in high sec. Use it at Jita station, you'll see what happens.


Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.23 01:13:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 23/01/2011 01:15:24
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 22/01/2011 23:14:19
They do not encourage any postive, community building behavior on any level. Perversely, they strongly discourage PVP, as most players are far more afraid of having a killmail generated from them than they want a killmail from someone else. Every time someone runs from an even or slightly uneven fight, I blame killmails.


While it is true that killmails may encourage certain negative behaviours, they're just an instrument. The blame lies in the people that instead of using it, end up living by it.
Killmails are an instrument for evaluating, through the use of statistical analysis on killboards, the performance of campaigns and combat. They are not all-knowing nor all-important, still they are useful to an end.

And responding to the guy below: in a perfect world there wouldn't be any reason to not allow what you say. Problem is, connection is lacking often (or the server itself may be struggling). Making the ship disappear after a sensible amount of time is the only reasonable answer to this problem. It is true that if you didn't manage to kill X in 15 mins you wouldn't have been able to kill at all since during that 15 minutes the ship has offline modules and NO bonus from the character, plus you aren't suffering any kind of attack from him.

If by the end of the 15 minutes he's still alive, it sucks to be you but you probably weren't able to tackle the problem anyway.

And about blobs... Yes it encourages blobbing of a sort. Do you want to get free titan kills while it's an asset that costs a lot of money and time and organisation to build? You have to make an effort my friend. Do you know how many ships it took to sink the Bismarck in WW2? 2 aircraft carriers, 3 battleships, 4 cruisers, 7 destroyers. The Bismarck was on its own.

And that was a Battleship. Admittedly, probably the most "tanked" battleship to ever see actual combat, but still a battleship. Now think a titan or a supercarrier.

Yes I know, it's a game and not real life, but that brings us back to the point I made above, doesn't it?

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.23 04:11:00 - [17]
 

If a capital ship (or any ship for that matter) is stupid enough to get caught, being scrammed while in an area it can't dock or jump or what have you, then logging off should NOT save the ship. I don't care if it would take you 24 hours to kill that capital ship, there's NO REASON logging off should save it. THEY made the mistake and got caught, now we're in the process of calling backup to finish off the capital ship in a timely manner, and the person that's caught should do the same. Logging off and disappearing completely in 2 minutes (assuming he didn't agress whatsoever) is completely rediculous.

-Feral

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.01.23 05:30:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
And about blobs... Yes it encourages blobbing of a sort. Do you want to get free titan kills while it's an asset that costs a lot of money and time and organisation to build? You have to make an effort my friend. Do you know how many ships it took to sink the Bismarck in WW2? 2 aircraft carriers, 3 battleships, 4 cruisers, 7 destroyers. The Bismarck was on its own.

You realize they pounded on it for days and towards the end of the engagement when it was clear the Bismarck couldn't escape, they actually sent the destroyers home right? Perfect example of why logging off shouldn't save a supercapital, once its escape is no longer possible because it stupidly left/lost its support ships, it's only a matter of time before it's destroyed...

Except in eve, where the magic Ctrl+Q EZ-button means supercaps can escape smaller gangs even though it doesn't have any support and even though it otherwise would've been unable to escape itself and thus died eventually

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.01.23 06:34:00 - [19]
 

My favourite is pooning noobs on station undock with my bhaalgorn then they bring a blob and I pop 1-2 then stick my ship in the carrier and laugh at them crying in local.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.23 10:04:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
And about blobs... Yes it encourages blobbing of a sort. Do you want to get free titan kills while it's an asset that costs a lot of money and time and organisation to build? You have to make an effort my friend. Do you know how many ships it took to sink the Bismarck in WW2? 2 aircraft carriers, 3 battleships, 4 cruisers, 7 destroyers. The Bismarck was on its own.

You realize they pounded on it for days and towards the end of the engagement when it was clear the Bismarck couldn't escape, they actually sent the destroyers home right? Perfect example of why logging off shouldn't save a supercapital, once its escape is no longer possible because it stupidly left/lost its support ships, it's only a matter of time before it's destroyed...

Except in eve, where the magic Ctrl+Q EZ-button means supercaps can escape smaller gangs even though it doesn't have any support and even though it otherwise would've been unable to escape itself and thus died eventually



I do realize that. What you (and the poster above you) seem to fail to realize, is that you are assuming that the guy maliciously disconnected. This is not an assumption you can make. While it may be true in many/most cases, it is not always true. Connectivity problems are quite common.

Also: if you keep tackled ships online forever, here's what's gonna happen (well it does happen already, but in a much less pronounced fashion): people will start shadowing targets and avoid attacking them until they log off, then probe them, tackle them and leisurely call in reinforcements in the next 3 hours to kill the capital without the owner even knowing it.

Sorry, but that's much worse than you not being able to form up and kill a capital in less than 15 minutes.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.01.23 13:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 23/01/2011 13:03:56
Epically missing the point Gecko, they are referring to tackled ships.


IMO, we pay for an internet game and most of the time CCP's logs show nothing anyway. DC'ing while tackled can easily be added to the EULA as a calculated risk. Everyone here knows that 95-99% of all "DC's" are simply capital pilots pulling the plug.


To say otherwise is either naive beyond measure...
Or your simply one of the people who wants to continue to get away with it in your own capital.


My OP was only referring to a ship loss generating a loss mail and comparing ctr-Q to a self-destruct. One presently results in a loss and the other does not.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.01.23 13:53:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Shade Millith

Tackle a titan/supercarrier, and it logs off, and vanishes in 60% armor. Bring a bigger blob next time. So obviously instead of 15 man roaming gangs, everyone should be in a 60 man roaming gang. Lets really blob everything in sight.


Rolling Eyes
>mfw an NC member whinges about blobs


Having said that, the logoffski is pretty lame and I don't like it. But until CCP can determine the difference between a legitimate disconnect and someone simply yanking his Internet cable out of the wall, I doubt they'll change this mechanic.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.01.24 01:09:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
Immoral Factoid: You cannot kill the buggers before they are on grid and repairing.

this is a real problem, omg i cant kill stuff before it lands.

Genera Prophet
Posted - 2011.01.24 01:23:00 - [24]
 

What the hell does morality have to do with playing internet spaceships?

Shade Millith
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.24 06:56:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Shade Millith on 24/01/2011 08:42:12
Originally by: Jovan Geldon
Originally by: Shade Millith

Tackle a titan/supercarrier, and it logs off, and vanishes in 60% armor. Bring a bigger blob next time. So obviously instead of 15 man roaming gangs, everyone should be in a 60 man roaming gang. Lets really blob everything in sight.


Rolling Eyes
>mfw an NC member whinges about blobs


Having said that, the logoffski is pretty lame and I don't like it. But until CCP can determine the difference between a legitimate disconnect and someone simply yanking his Internet cable out of the wall, I doubt they'll change this mechanic.


>holy**** a person is an individual.

I detest blobs, and my reasons for being NC are most certainly not for the mass bloby lag fests. Solo is what I enjoy.

And I honestly don't care if it's a legit DC. If a ship is tackled, it should never vanish, regardless of circumstances.

Telling people that they have to bring enough people to down something with the EHP of a medium tower (Amarr Medium, 20 mil shields, 5 mil armor, 4 mil hull) within 15 minutes is rediculous. If it's even 8 jumps out, that's about a third/half of that short time limit just getting there.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.24 09:28:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Every time someone runs from an even or slightly uneven fight, I blame killmails.


That's a rather extreme position to take.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.24 15:11:00 - [27]
 

Is there a reason why this special defence should apply only to supercaps, caps, and maybe a drake or two?
If 'real D/Cs should be safe' applies, then why aren't all ships similarly difficult to kill when they intentionally/accidentally disconnect?
This logic only applies to ships that it takes huge DPS to bring down, everything else dies if it's tackled and it D/Cs.
If there's one ship class that we does not need to be made extra-survivable, it's supercaps.

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.24 15:15:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 23/01/2011 13:03:56
Epically missing the point Gecko, they are referring to tackled ships.


IMO, we pay for an internet game and most of the time CCP's logs show nothing anyway. DC'ing while tackled can easily be added to the EULA as a calculated risk. Everyone here knows that 95-99% of all "DC's" are simply capital pilots pulling the plug.


To say otherwise is either naive beyond measure...
Or your simply one of the people who wants to continue to get away with it in your own capital.


My OP was only referring to a ship loss generating a loss mail and comparing ctr-Q to a self-destruct. One presently results in a loss and the other does not.


I don't even have a capital nor I'll ever have one. And I didn't miss the point. Ships don't disappear instantly after logging off, even if they aren't in aggro. IT IS possible to probe them and catch them before they disappear. It's been done before for supercaps. IIRC the first Titan kill (or the second perhaps) has been done exactly in this fashion. Pilot logged off without aggro in "safe" spot, got probed and consequently ****d.

It can be done ALREADY as it is, and you want to increase the chances to do that? Sorry but no.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.24 22:02:00 - [29]
 

Two thoughts

Neutral RR, The only difference between neutral RR and non neutral is that you can't proactively engage them. Once they start delivering reps they are just as vulnerable as any other they can also dock just as quickly. So I honestly think it's a non-issue. Logistics are a reality of EVE warfare yes the neutrals are pain in the backside but such is life learn to deal with it or don't undock.

Self destruct to deny killmails. The solution to that is simple. Void insurance in the case of self destruct. They can still deny you a killmail but at least it will increase the level of isk loss on the target if they choose to exercise the self destruct option.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.25 01:26:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 25/01/2011 01:28:30

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Every time someone runs from an even or slightly uneven fight, I blame killmails.


That's a rather extreme position to take.


Extreme, but likely true. People don't generally play video games to run away from action. So when they do run away from an even fight, I look to the external motivator that is causing that behavior: killmails, and the fear of producing them. The average Eve player is far more afraid of losing a ship than they lust for killing a ship. Considering how much isk is floating around, it isn't financial fear of loss causing this. It's the fear of corpmates, allies, and enemies criticizing them for losing.


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