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Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.01.22 13:17:00 - [1]
 

I am just going to beat a dead horse here. But seeing how the idea is rising to remove JB's from 0.0 I would like to revive another idea.

High sec wars revised:
Since the dawn of high sec wars there have been station hugging games. With the heavily increased HP on ships in most cases you can undock, take a few popshots at a target and redock way in time before your armor or shield suffors real damage.
The 30 second timer is a thing of old.
And why would a stationmanager allow heavy agressive people back in after a mere 30 seconds of none agression?
Make it 15 minutes and you are sure that PvP will happen between those engaging eachother outside a station.
But that 15 minute timer kicks in after agression, so not when you don't agress.


About neutral reppers.
As soon as someone uses a neutral repper or get's repaired by a neutral that neutral actually declares he isn't neutral and should be flagged as a legal wartarget for the remainder of the war.
Activly participating in a war should have it's consequences, even if you aren't shooting, by aiding one side the other side should have you as legal target for the remainder of the war.
Result will be more active combat since the useage of neutral reppers only lasts as long as you have unflagged ones.
As it is now you can use a neutral repper who will unflag within a real short amount of time.

Dockingranges of stations.
Do something about that. It's absurd that some stations have a dockingrange that exceeds well over 30km from undock whereas others have a small docking radius.
Make them all as small as the smallest currently in exsistance ingame.

KaraStarbuckThrace
Posted - 2011.01.23 17:47:00 - [2]
 

I completely agree with point 1.. its just simple common sense.

Point 2 - Not sure about the remainder of the war but the repper should at the very least become a viable war target for at least 15 minutes.

As for point 3, does each station have a set docking range are do they vary?

For example if you undock from a station at 30km will it be 30km everytime?

If it is static for each station then I would leave things as they are. Its down to the player to research each station and know what the docking range is.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.01.23 20:53:00 - [3]
 

Go check out how it's in low sec or 0.0 maybe?

Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.01.23 22:34:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: KaraStarbuckThrace
I completely agree with point 1.. its just simple common sense.

Point 2 - Not sure about the remainder of the war but the repper should at the very least become a viable war target for at least 15 minutes.

As for point 3, does each station have a set docking range are do they vary?

For example if you undock from a station at 30km will it be 30km everytime?

If it is static for each station then I would leave things as they are. Its down to the player to research each station and know what the docking range is.



Nah the 15 minutes is hardly effective. Simple thing is that when a repper choses sides in a war why only be flagged for 15 minutes? There are certainly more than enough people who will have a pretty load of neutral reppers, easy to cycle them then.
You choose a side your stuck with it as long as the rest.

And no, I have undocked at station where I could fly away from for quit a bit before the meters started to kick in whereas other stations I undocked and after setting course away from the station not much after that the counter started.

Ow and on a sidenote:
I live in 0.0 and it's pretty easy there when it comes to neutrals or hostiles. Both get shot. No need for a timer.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.01.24 12:07:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 24/01/2011 12:09:21
Originally by: Killer Gandry
Simple thing is that when a repper choses sides in a war why only be flagged for 15 minutes? There are certainly more than enough people who will have a pretty load of neutral reppers, easy to cycle them then.


So the new lofty scam will be getting people to rep your mission boat, at which point you are free to shoot them until you stop declaring war on your alt corp?

It's bad enough that the guy you're repping can shoot you and by consequence flag you with GCC for aiding a pirate, and bring CONCORD upon your own sorry arse.

What's wrong with simply giving neutral reppers an aggression timer so they can't dock for 15 minutes, and their ship will stay in space for 15 minutes after they've logged off?

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.01.24 12:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
So the new lofty scam will be getting people to rep your mission boat, at which point you are free to shoot them until you stop declaring war on your alt corp?


EVE is a harsh Universe. You are forced to rethink every action. If you want to go rep someone who isn't in your corporation you aid them. Plus I am talking when you neutral rep someone in a PvP situation. Repping outside a PvP situation is a whole other ballpark.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

It's bad enough that the guy you're repping can shoot you and by consequence flag you with GCC for aiding a pirate, and bring CONCORD upon your own sorry arse.


Don't rep people whom you don't know. Repping a crappy unknown frigate with your Logistics just is asking for being gankscammed.
You won't see someone in a Macharial pull that scam. and if someone in a frig asks for a neutral rep just tell em to dock and repair. If you feel so in need to help you can even send them some ISK to cover the repaircost.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

What's wrong with simply giving neutral reppers an aggression timer so they can't dock for 15 minutes, and their ship will stay in space for 15 minutes after they've logged off?



As stated before, 15 minutes just don't cut it. Make the penalty for chosing a side clear.

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.25 02:32:00 - [7]
 

Yo Killer Gandry, you're a cool dood and imma let you finish, but the aggression timer has been longer than 30 seconds for some time now. Try it yourself and you'll see that it's a full minute.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.01.25 05:43:00 - [8]
 

And what is a minute nowadays with an übertank and the availability of neutral reppers.

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.26 03:35:00 - [9]
 

Repping a target with aggression triggers aggression. As for reps, y helo thar neuts.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.01.26 11:59:00 - [10]
 

Ow woot, I get a neutral rep and when the repper get's targetted he just docks up. No sweat. Next neutral repper in line and so on.

Less crybabies about how this would diminish their ganking style and more people who see the logic.

Seems those who mainly deploy neutral reppers are bigger carebears than their socalled soft targets.

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.26 18:46:00 - [11]
 

Wait, what?

Do some people seriously have hordes of neutral rep alts they can undock and rotate between aggression?

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.01.26 18:57:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Steph Wing
Wait, what?

Do some people seriously have hordes of neutral rep alts they can undock and rotate between aggression?


I know several corporations that have at the minimum of 10 neutral reppers ready at standby. And those were only the counted ones.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2011.01.31 08:47:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: D'Leh Mannuck
Originally by: Steph Wing
Wait, what?

Do some people seriously have hordes of neutral rep alts they can undock and rotate between aggression?


I know several corporations that have at the minimum of 10 neutral reppers ready at standby. And those were only the counted ones.

and i know 20 more.
NEutral RR must die. IF you whant to fihgt, have theballs to come oput and fight.

15 minutes non-docking time? Very Happy

And i fully support this, highsec wars need to be a serious choise.
Some 5 man griefer corp declares war, and when they get their ases handed to them, no big deal, warp in NUEtral RR< save the ship, dorck up in 30 seconds when timer runs out and play spin-the-ship for the rest of the week.

You could actually make the time a few minutes if the R is in a player corporation, then you can at least declare war on them. But you should not be allowed to RR people if you are in a noob corp.. Maybe just get yourself concorded right away, or kicked from noobcorp

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.01.31 08:50:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
High sec wars revised:
Since the dawn of high sec wars there have been station hugging games. With the heavily increased HP on ships in most cases you can undock, take a few popshots at a target and redock way in time before your armor or shield suffors real damage.
The 30 second timer is a thing of old.
And why would a stationmanager allow heavy agressive people back in after a mere 30 seconds of none agression?
Make it 15 minutes and you are sure that PvP will happen between those engaging eachother outside a station.
But that 15 minute timer kicks in after agression, so not when you don't agress.


Agree with you there.

Quote:
About neutral reppers.
As soon as someone uses a neutral repper or get's repaired by a neutral that neutral actually declares he isn't neutral and should be flagged as a legal wartarget for the remainder of the war.
Activly participating in a war should have it's consequences, even if you aren't shooting, by aiding one side the other side should have you as legal target for the remainder of the war.
Result will be more active combat since the useage of neutral reppers only lasts as long as you have unflagged ones.
As it is now you can use a neutral repper who will unflag within a real short amount of time.


Very, very agreed. If you stick your nose into my fight I should have the right to bite it off and spit it in your eye.

Quote:
Dockingranges of stations.
Do something about that. It's absurd that some stations have a dockingrange that exceeds well over 30km from undock whereas others have a small docking radius.
Make them all as small as the smallest currently in exsistance ingame.


Something to be said for this but I must admit I like taking advantage of my opponents inability/unwillingness to study the battlefield.


TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.01.31 16:41:00 - [15]
 

Was sounding good until I realised all you wanted to do was gank people on undock.

1) is a mixed bag. Its easy enough to fight someone on station, but being able to deagress and dock if they spike local with a blob is useful counter to blobbing. On different side of that coin, people blob on stations because hostiles just dock up if they don't stand a chance.

2) Neutral repping is annoying, making people war targets for rest of war sounds hard to implement and potentially problematic if you have a war on and you get a neutral to rep in missions for example. Logistics just needs to give docking timer aggression of the person being repped.

3) Its annoying only for gankers like you and me. Sitting on station undock in a bumping battleship should not be encouraged any more than it is.

tldr I want more consensual pvp not ganks.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.01.31 21:41:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: TimMc
Was sounding good until I realised all you wanted to do was gank people on undock.


I can do that as much as I want, simply because I live in 0.0. I don't have the restrictions in that department.

Originally by: TimMc

1) is a mixed bag. Its easy enough to fight someone on station, but being able to deagress and dock if they spike local with a blob is useful counter to blobbing. On different side of that coin, people blob on stations because hostiles just dock up if they don't stand a chance.


Which ultimately means you need to play smarter. Want to undock to pew pew you better have intell on possible hostiles in next system on gate.
As it is now it's easyplay to be a stationhugger. And the risk of losing a ship is less than viable if you know what you're doing and have your spy alts or your friends spy alts out.

Originally by: TimMc

2) Neutral repping is annoying, making people war targets for rest of war sounds hard to implement and potentially problematic if you have a war on and you get a neutral to rep in missions for example. Logistics just needs to give docking timer aggression of the person being repped.


Neutral repping is practicly chosing a side in a war. And as I stated the neutral repper should get flagged as wartarget when he is repping during a fight. We have annoying pop ups for about anything, how hard is it to implement a pop up warning that the one you are about to rep has an agression timer from a PvP encounter.
Repping in a mission wouldn't trigger it then.
And let's face it. Howmany socalled neutral reppers don't know their teammate in the mission is at war. Howmany people do you think actually fly around to make ISK by neutral repping missionrunners.

Originally by: TimMc

3) Its annoying only for gankers like you and me. Sitting on station undock in a bumping battleship should not be encouraged any more than it is.


Sorry to burst your bubble but I am not a ganker and till not too long ago I was a missionrunner and carebear. We were wardecced several times and the annoying thing was and still is the stationhugging docking game.
It wasn't us "carebears" that did the dockinggame but the hardcore gankers.

It's actually the "l33t high sec pvp corporations" that would suffer more from it since:

A- They won't wardec 3 corporations at the same time that fast anymore because those "soft" targets might combine forces and own their tushies.
B- Those l33t high sec pvp corporations will have to device more tactics than undock and be able to redock carefree because their ship get's a neutral rep without any agressioncounter.

So you see. The ones who would be hurt more would be those corporations that think that undock and redock is THE way to PvP.

Originally by: TimMc

tldr I want more consensual pvp not ganks.


Consensual PvP is bullcrap. You consent into PvP the moment you undock. Ganking is a form of PvP. Like it or not. But why would those who have a lot of experience in ganking have easy ways out?

And if you want consensual PvP just drop 1 ammo or so and let your designated consensual target loot it.

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2011.02.01 05:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: D'Leh Mannuck
Originally by: Mara Rinn
So the new lofty scam will be getting people to rep your mission boat, at which point you are free to shoot them until you stop declaring war on your alt corp?


EVE is a harsh Universe. You are forced to rethink every action. If you want to go rep someone who isn't in your corporation you aid them. Plus I am talking when you neutral rep someone in a PvP situation. Repping outside a PvP situation is a whole other ballpark.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

It's bad enough that the guy you're repping can shoot you and by consequence flag you with GCC for aiding a pirate, and bring CONCORD upon your own sorry arse.


Don't rep people whom you don't know. Repping a crappy unknown frigate with your Logistics just is asking for being gankscammed.
You won't see someone in a Macharial pull that scam. and if someone in a frig asks for a neutral rep just tell em to dock and repair. If you feel so in need to help you can even send them some ISK to cover the repaircost.

Originally by: Mara Rinn

What's wrong with simply giving neutral reppers an aggression timer so they can't dock for 15 minutes, and their ship will stay in space for 15 minutes after they've logged off?



As stated before, 15 minutes just don't cut it. Make the penalty for chosing a side clear.


/agree

Choices must have consequences. When you rep someone has neutral you take part of something and must assume the consequences.
There is no reason that someone can rep without being flagged

1- make them be flagged has long has the agression of their target -if it's a wardec he should think twice before rep

or

2- make them be concorded, the rep system should work like weapons

Wraithsguard
Posted - 2011.02.17 17:12:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Wraithsguard on 18/02/2011 04:25:02
Edited by: Wraithsguard on 17/02/2011 17:26:02
Being involved in a current hisec war in which our aggressor corporation is using neutral reppers as part of there strategy. I can attest that the neutral reppers do not become red to us. and have petitioned ccp about this fact that we have no recourse in this matter.

here is a quote which I cannot give the author or who the author may or may not work for or when it was written by rules of this forum.



I am afraid that this is currently working as intended. When a neutral aids your WT, you will become flagged to him but he will not become flagged to you until he fires on you.


I have to say this is very disturbing on many levels.
1. Why on earth would I the non aggressor become flagged to the neutral repper and not the other way around. It is their "choice" to enter the war! As such there should be a consequence for their choice of action.
2. I do not know any logistics pilot that has mounted a weapon or even carries combat drones, thus they will never fire upon anyone.
3. If ccp is considering warships fit with remote reppers, then this to should be considered as an act of war by the pilot beginning to repair one side or the other. They should get the same concord alert as any other non sanctioned act of aggression..are you sure you want to commit this act. it they select yes then they should be held accountable just like any other act. either by concord as normal or becoming "red flashy" to the other side of war not being repped.
This can last for the normal aggression timer of 12-15 minutes, or for say 24 hours or the equivilant of kill rights for example.
4.CCP cant possibly continue to say it is to hard to fix this issue..they can add new really cool content which proves their true capabilities.and we the players MUST join together with one voice and say ..fix these old annoying issues first please.

Some of you may comment I am just another ceo who is whinning about an unfair game mechanics. I tell you I am voicing a truth in that this mechanics does not fit in any part of eve online concept..piracy,theft,corporate espionage, etc. all have a posibility of recourse from the player(s) who was the target of the offense. In this case the neutral reppers are in essence just like all the other games "invulnerability cheat codes" which to a true gamer is weak at best to use and frowned upon.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.17 20:54:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/02/2011 20:56:40
High-sec:
Fifteen minutes, do you really think you are going to get more PvP out of that?
Number of actual engagements will drop like a stone and be replaced with insane amounts of log-on/bait ganks .. that is not PvP.

Neutral RR:
At least it would mean they disappear completely, but is that how an open-ended game is supposed to be, draconian?
Equate remote assistance with everything else done remotely like shooting/jamming/etc.
Solves pretty much all issues regarding neutral RR. If they are used in high-sec Concord removes them for you, no charge Smile

Docking range: Would be much better if ranges were normalised even if it means losing the few kick-out stations that exist .. most stations should be borderline kick-out, with just enough buffer to account for load-lag.
Ties in with the high-sec entry in that reducing the docking range makes a successful bump exceedingly easy making changes to docking timers irrelevant.

@Wraith: Remove the GM blurp, it is against the posting rules.

Wraithsguard
Posted - 2011.02.18 04:13:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Wraithsguard on 18/02/2011 04:30:04
Edited by: Wraithsguard on 18/02/2011 04:18:58

After writing this I did some searching and found the rules reguarding quotes and do so reluctantly remove the truth from my previous post..it does however hinders anyone reading this post to believe its authenticity since the rules remove the "showing" of proof to the player base.


 

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