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Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.22 11:23:00 - [1]
 

My sincerest apologies to start another “how to stop macro miners” thread.

It would be very easy to stop macro miners. All you would have to do is apply a 30% (this figure could revised) cut to mining yield of mining turrets/drones whilst in an npc corp. To mine effectively you would need to be in a player corporation which would make you war decable. Macro miners could mine in safety in npc corps if they wished but since their mining yield would be diminished. This would very beneficial to the economy. Genuine miners will usually gravitate to player corporations and as such won’t be affected. For the genuine player who mines in an npc corporation all I can say is time to find a good well balanced corp and please remember that mission runners had to take an 11% cut to bounty’s when ccp introduced tax for npc corps. I have always wondered why ccp over looked miners…

Please remember that this idea couldn’t be effected by a change in the macros software. So their only option would be to move to a player corporation where they would be decable.

shady trader
Posted - 2011.01.22 15:28:00 - [2]
 

Been suggested before and shown not to work several years ago. Ready for the history lesson ?

A long time a go in a galaxy far far away, people started stealing from and suicide attacking NPC corp members that they suspected of being macro miners.

The people behind this created fake player corps for their bots to operate in, when players figured it out which the fake corps were they war decced them. The people running the bots used the 24 hour warning period to create a new corp and leave the old corp behind (in some cases with just an alt in it). This resulted in the macro hunters having to war dec a new corp, and the process repeated.

As for a tax, are you talking about taking 30% of there ore when they dock or a reduction in the amount they actually mine ?

The first can easily be worked around, just have them warp to a safe stop were the Orca in a fake player corp sits, transfer the ore and then warp back to the belt.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.22 16:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: shady trader
Been suggested before and shown not to work several years ago. Ready for the history lesson ?

A long time a go in a galaxy far far away, people started stealing from and suicide attacking NPC corp members that they suspected of being macro miners.

The people behind this created fake player corps for their bots to operate in, when players figured it out which the fake corps were they war decced them. The people running the bots used the 24 hour warning period to create a new corp and leave the old corp behind (in some cases with just an alt in it). This resulted in the macro hunters having to war dec a new corp, and the process repeated.

As for a tax, are you talking about taking 30% of there ore when they dock or a reduction in the amount they actually mine ?

The first can easily be worked around, just have them warp to a safe stop were the Orca in a fake player corp sits, transfer the ore and then warp back to the belt.


Don't take it so seriously. This is the stealth "yerr, I want more miners to dec" whine from fail highsec pirates.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.22 16:58:00 - [4]
 

Exactly what I said a reduction to mining yield. Impossible to get around. As for jumping corps to evade a war dec that can be petitioned.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.22 17:00:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Memcoll
Exactly what I said a reduction to mining yield. Impossible to get around. As for jumping corps to evade a war dec that can be petitioned.


It can't. CCP has repeated again and again. You dec the corp, not the player.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.22 17:03:00 - [6]
 

All of the players would be in a corp at the time of the war dec right? So it can.

shady trader
Posted - 2011.01.22 18:03:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Memcoll
All of the players would be in a corp at the time of the war dec right? So it can.


As the poster above as said, people jumping war decs by leaving a corp and joining another one has been partitioned and CCP have clear said its not an exploit is accepted behaviour. One of the stated ways to win a corp war is to drive out the member of the other corp. If you do a search, this issue has been discussed a number of times on the forums, including GM etc posting to confirm it.

People have partitioned it when macros were using fake player corps and CCP say it was allowed.

The only thing they are not allowed to do is rejoin the corp while the war is on going.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.01.22 18:26:00 - [8]
 

I must have missed the bit that stopped it affecting non-macro miners.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:14:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
I must have missed the bit that stopped it affecting non-macro miners.


That's the intended purpose of this whine. Tears are farmed from real people.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.22 19:21:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Memcoll on 22/01/2011 19:21:20
Originally by: shady trader
Originally by: Memcoll
All of the players would be in a corp at the time of the war dec right? So it can.


As the poster above as said, people jumping war decs by leaving a corp and joining another one has been partitioned and CCP have clear said its not an exploit is accepted behaviour. One of the stated ways to win a corp war is to drive out the member of the other corp. If you do a search, this issue has been discussed a number of times on the forums, including GM etc posting to confirm it.

People have partitioned it when macros were using fake player corps and CCP say it was allowed.

The only thing they are not allowed to do is rejoin the corp while the war is on going.






What you have quoted from my post is me responding to what the previous poster was trying to say. I believe he thought my intentions were to target individuals. This can be petitioned in certain circumstances. I apologize if I have digressed or made myself unclear.

This isn’t actually the issue. I am aware that players may leave a corp to join another one in the event of a war. You must also understand that these corporations may be war decced. This is what the mining tax may accomplish. For any miner to evade the tax they must be in a player corporation. At this point they may war decced. If they leave that corp to evade a war that is their choice.

shady trader
Posted - 2011.01.22 22:55:00 - [11]
 

You cannot partition people for leaving a corp under a WAR Dec. CCP have stated both as a result of partitions and on this forums that leaving a corp that is under a war dec is perfectly allowed. If you look at posts form a couple of years back you will find the long threads discussing this very issue that CCP responded to.

The basic idea of forcing them into player corps so you can war dec and attack them does not work. The macros miners can switch corps faster then you can get a war implemented. So all you force them to do is waste a couple of million setting up corps.

How macro miners can avoid by in a non NPC corp and avoid war decs 101:
step 1) Get some off line alts on several accounts to create a number of corps. you have 3 spare character slots per account you are not using.

step 2) After downtime all miners to join the currnet corp (lets call this A)

Step 3) An hour later corp A is war decced, they then have the 24 hour grace period before the war goes active.

Step 4) As down time approaches of the following day and you war dec is due to start. All the macro miners quite corp A before logging off for down time.

Step 5) got to step 2 leaving the alt to hold the old corp open.

The result is that you still cannot attack the macro miners and they avoid the tax you are proposing.

Some players and the macro's have already used this trick to avoid a war dec. There is also an alliance trick they can us. If they want to get fancy, they could mix and match there macro teams in different corps each time, or create one alt and one macro miner corps to drive your costs up. If you dig around you will find reports of corps doing this, I know that I have seen RTM teams doing it when they were attempting to hide that they were.

A while ago, the was a dedicated alliance just to get a war dec removed from your corp.

The basic idea you are suggesting to allow you to attack macro's is not going to work with the game mechanics as there is a known and proven way to avoid.

With the 24 hour grace period once a war dec has been approved, you are always 24 hours behind the macros. You get close and they switch crops putting you 24 hours behind them again.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.22 23:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: shady trader
You cannot partition people for leaving a corp under a WAR Dec. CCP have stated both as a result of partitions and on this forums that leaving a corp that is under a war dec is perfectly allowed. If you look at posts form a couple of years back you will find the long threads discussing this very issue that CCP responded to.



You need to read and understand my post before posting. I have already stated that “I am aware that players may leave a corp to join another one in the event of a war”. So posting that “You cannot partition people for leaving a corp under a WAR Dec” is rather pointless. You can however petition in certain circumstances. If you believe you are witnessing a macro mining corp at work this is quite legitimate reason to petition since the use of macros is a breach of the EULA.

You continue to cite what would become a common practice for escaping a war dec. This actually would lead to useful information for CCP to pursue when receiving a petition complaining about macro miners. I would like to add that your “avoid war dec 101” can’t be taken as a verbatim method that macro miners would use to avoid a war dec. This particular method I admit could be used by anyone. Only in a perfect world would there be no avenue for a corp to attacked before they all left. Some macro miners would be sloppy.

You must understand that this would make life very awkward for macro miners and I will agree that this approach would not be perfect but I would rather this than the easy life the macro miners have at the moment.

ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
Posted - 2011.01.22 23:58:00 - [13]
 

Good idea. Won’t stop macro miners as such but will make their life more difficult and it’s a method that unlike many other ideas that would be difficult for a bot to bypass.

shady trader
Posted - 2011.01.23 00:17:00 - [14]
 

You can partition them as suspected macro miners now so this has nothing to do with your idea.

When people point out they would leave corps you starting taking about partitioning them. In fact it post 4 you said:

Originally by: Memcoll
Exactly what I said a reduction to mining yield. Impossible to get around. As for jumping corps to evade a war dec that can be petitioned.


Key part in bold.

After that you just refer to partitioning under certain circumstances but not stating the circumstances till the last post.
Originally by: Memcoll
Edited by: Memcoll on 22/01/2011 19:21:20

What you have quoted from my post is me responding to what the previous poster was trying to say. I believe he thought my intentions were to target individuals. This can be petitioned in certain circumstances.



Hence my confusing about you believing that you can partition someone for corp hopping under certain circumstances.

The how to beat it 101: was not supposed to be the only solution, just that a demonstration that new mechanic you are suggesting already has a work around that has been used in game.

What I am trying to point out.

Your idea significantly impacts on real players in NPC corps (some of hum stay there to avoid war decs, which CCP had stated is one of the reason for NPC corps). But is easily worked around so will have little impact on the RMT people since they tend to be well organised. If I wanted to I could write it into a programme to automate the corp hoping by monitoring for a war dec arriving in eve mail.

As for providing information for CCP, I suspect they have much better tools to look for patterns in the data.

CCP have also stated that they do not want to introduce changes that have a significant negative impact on real players just to cause minor problems for macro's.

Memcoll
Posted - 2011.01.23 00:41:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Memcoll on 23/01/2011 00:50:29
Ok now that the confusion is sorted out.

Originally by: shady trader
Your idea significantly impacts on real players in NPC corps (some of hum stay there to avoid war decs, which CCP had stated is one of the reason for NPC corps). But is easily worked around so will have little impact on the RMT people since they tend to be well organised.


It will have an impact. Do you think RMT are all highly organized? There are others that use macros that aren’t RMT.

Originally by: shady trader
If I wanted to I could write it into a programme to automate the corp hoping by monitoring for a war dec arriving in eve mail.


Yes you could and each one of these corps could be war decable. You would also be leaving a fantastic “paper trail” for CCP to follow in their war against macro miners.

Originally by: shady trader
As for providing information for CCP, I suspect they have much better tools to look for patterns in the data.


CCP do have unpublished methods for tracking down RMT but they take our intel in game very seriously. This would help us the players identify macros also.

Originally by: shady trader
CCP have also stated that they do not want to introduce changes that have a significant negative impact on real players just to cause minor problems for macro's.


This is by far the strongest point you have made. There are genuine players who are interested in mining solely in npc corporations. This would affect them also. If you take into consideration that CCP added an 11% tax to npc corps it is reasnoble that they could add an 11% reduction to mining yield.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.01.23 03:23:00 - [16]
 

You're going about this all wrong.

Wise man say "The gentle reed sways in the wind of the hurricane. While the tree will snap in half"

Macro miners have their spot due to a poor mining system.

*CCP if you read this, forgive a small nerd as myself...I'm trying to address the 'real problem'...I love your game.

Look at pvp, you don't macro a pvp game cause its to dangerous. It's too hard to predict what the other person will do.
Every AI has a set program...even if its complex, players will eventually figure it out. Nerds who play MMO's aren't stupid...just social inept LaughingLaughingLaughing (just kidding)


My point is, for every 1 person trying to stop macroing head on, there will be 2 people supporting it and working around it. If you start going tic for tac macro vs real people, the penalties for macroing will eventually stop on the little guy.

Change the manner in mining. Make it worth while to not use macros, but to actually play the game.

Alinair
Posted - 2011.02.04 16:19:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Alinair on 04/02/2011 21:00:56
Message erased due to it's contents being incorrect. I apologize. Embarassed

Admiral Leviathan
Posted - 2011.02.04 18:28:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Alinair
Edited by: Alinair on 04/02/2011 16:19:59
Edited by: Alinair on 04/02/2011 16:19:18
Originally by: Memcoll
Edited by: Memcoll on 23/01/2011 00:50:29

Originally by: shady trader
CCP have also stated that they do not want to introduce changes that have a significant negative impact on real players just to cause minor problems for macro's.


This is by far the strongest point you have made. There are genuine players who are interested in mining solely in npc corporations. This would affect them also. If you take into consideration that CCP added an 11% tax to npc corps it is reasnoble that they could add an 11% reduction to mining yield.



What you are missing from your argument is that the 11% tax is already applied to mining yield when you sell it. Applying an 11% to mining yield would result in a total 20.79% Income loss. That is an outrageous income tax equivalent by eve online standards. In-fact they already do have an incentive to switch to a custom corp: the 11% tax.


What? you sure you are not confusing regular market tax? So you say that if I give 5 mil tritanium to my NPC corp Jita alt, I will make 11% less profit when I sell it using that character?

Alinair
Posted - 2011.02.04 21:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Admiral Leviathan
Originally by: Alinair
Edited by: Alinair on 04/02/2011 16:19:59
Edited by: Alinair on 04/02/2011 16:19:18
Originally by: Memcoll
Edited by: Memcoll on 23/01/2011 00:50:29

Originally by: shady trader
CCP have also stated that they do not want to introduce changes that have a significant negative impact on real players just to cause minor problems for macro's.


This is by far the strongest point you have made. There are genuine players who are interested in mining solely in npc corporations. This would affect them also. If you take into consideration that CCP added an 11% tax to npc corps it is reasnoble that they could add an 11% reduction to mining yield.



What you are missing from your argument is that the 11% tax is already applied to mining yield when you sell it. Applying an 11% to mining yield would result in a total 20.79% Income loss. That is an outrageous income tax equivalent by eve online standards. In-fact they already do have an incentive to switch to a custom corp: the 11% tax.


What? you sure you are not confusing regular market tax? So you say that if I give 5 mil tritanium to my NPC corp Jita alt, I will make 11% less profit when I sell it using that character?


Oops, sorry, apparently for all the math I know I just forgot how the eve online mechanics actuary work for a second... I feel stupid now. I guess that I should not post a few minutes after waking up...Embarassed

Vak Keelin
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 02:03:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Vak Keelin on 05/02/2011 02:03:52
PunkBuster+Client+permaban

problem solved

raney ilara
Posted - 2011.02.05 05:23:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
My sincerest apologies to start another “how to stop macro miners” thread.


another one? you're not forgiven. This will solve nothing. Again I think you are way over estimating the existence of real macro miners and down playing the existence and in fact the larger population of macro missioners.

Also, I do not like punky bruster spyware on my computer.. it's a can of worms waiting to be exploited.

Vak Keelin
Caldari
Posted - 2011.02.05 05:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: raney ilara
Quote:
My sincerest apologies to start another “how to stop macro miners” thread.


another one? you're not forgiven. This will solve nothing. Again I think you are way over estimating the existence of real macro miners and down playing the existence and in fact the larger population of macro missioners.

Also, I do not like punky bruster spyware on my computer.. it's a can of worms waiting to be exploited.


It isn't spywhere, it is legitmate softwhere designed to detect the existance of invasive softwhere in the Client. A client that is in this case owned by CCP and and licensed to the user to use on an "at will" basis.

Any softwhere of any type can be abused. If you trust CCP enough to install Eve, then you should have no problem installing an add on that they have fully approaved.

SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.05 08:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN on 05/02/2011 08:37:30
This has been discussed before... here

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1453621


 

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