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blankseplocked A new Role for Supercarriers:
 
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Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.19 12:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Linas IV on 23/01/2011 21:47:27
Edited by: Linas IV on 19/01/2011 12:48:32
Introduction:

As most of us already know, the situation with Supercaps, and especialy Supercarriers is getting out of hand lately.
Deployed in sufficient numbers they become superior to any other fleetcomposition, and therefore need to be changed as soon as possible.

In order to help this progress i'd like to propose an idea:




Supercarriers as the highest logistic-Vessel in fleets
(as they were always meant to be).

In order to archieve this, I recommend the following changes:




1. Reduce Fighterbomber Damage by 60%

This gets the averange SC downn to 3200 dps and Nyxes to 4000 dps; Well bellow Gankdread-levels, but without making fighterbombers entirely obsolete.



2. Reduce the primary HP-Value (Armor on NYX/Aeon; Shield on Wyver etc.) by 40%


This should make SCs EHP less of an issue in smaller scaled fights, solves the "Logoff-problem", and brings SCs more in line with other Ships



3. First new Role-Bonus: +250% Repair-amount on Local and Remote Armor Repairers, aswell as on Shield-Boosters and Transporters (Cap-Transfers are not affected)

This puts the new SCs slighly above the rep capabilities of a Triage carrier, while being mobile, but without the Carriers high Scan-resolution and fast Repair-cycles. Additionaly this allows SCs to tank activly again. Therefore the loss of EHP should become less of an issue.



4. Second new Role-Bonus: Supercarriers are allowed to repair Dreads in Siege and Carriers in Triage.


Now this is the center part of my idea. This new ability will make SCs unique and useful, but more importanly it moves the balance in 0.0 Capital warfare away from "Mass-Supercaps" and gives Dreadnoughts aswell as Triage Carriers role in large fleets again.



5. Increase the base Capacitor of Supercarriers by 30%

Self explanatory; It's needed in order for this concept to work.





With these changes, Supercarriers should stay a "force to be reckoned with", as long as they got a proper Fleet for support, without making them "overpowered" in large numberes.



____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Example: Fleet composition after the changes


Titans (dps)

SuperCarriers => | => Dreadnoughts (dps)
|
| => Carriers (Triage) => | => Battleships (dps/neuts)
|
| => Logistics => | => Battlecruisers (dps)
|
| => Ewar / other Support
____________________________________________________________________________________________________




Feel free to comment on these ideas, Dev-input would be very much appreciated aswell

Linas IV


edit: lowered the repair value

Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.19 12:44:00 - [2]
 

Reserved

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.01.19 12:57:00 - [3]
 

I'm by no means an expert but I think it sounds a bit overpowered.

Say for simplicities sake that both triaged carriers and supercarriers can repair 10,000 dps.

Then imagine we have 5 supercarriers and 5 triaged carriers. In worst case (for the carriers) one of the triaged carriers are attacked, which would give a repair ability of 60,000 dps. You'd need 60 gank battleships just to break through the tank! After that you'd still have to go through the EHP.

In the best case (for the carriers) one of the supercarriers is attacked, which would give a repair ability of 100,000dps! That's 100 gank battleships just to break through the tank.

Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.19 13:03:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Linas IV on 19/01/2011 13:04:32
Well, if you consider that Dreads will become useful again with that change, those numbers aren't that impressive anymore.
Futhermore the EHP on Triage Carriers isn't that great, if a huge amount of DPS is present.

This could lead to epic slugfests, where actually the best coordination wins, instead of just the biggest Blob.

Rhinanna
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.19 14:15:00 - [5]
 

This sounds like a great plan!

Jarem Sothra
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.19 20:51:00 - [6]
 

Love it, but you still need sovereignty in order to use a mothership. And for right now you can't have it in WH space, high-sec, or even low-sec, only null-sec.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.19 20:57:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kalia Masaer on 19/01/2011 20:57:24
Dreads would only be useful to the side who can field super carriers they would still be flying coffins to the side that didn't have super carriers.

Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.19 21:16:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kalia Masaer
Edited by: Kalia Masaer on 19/01/2011 20:57:24
Dreads would only be useful to the side who can field super carriers they would still be flying coffins to the side that didn't have super carriers.


Well, even though this is kinda true, i don't think that there is an entity in EVE that is able to field a bunch of Dreads without at least some Supercarriers.

Pantorus Necraliss
Minmatar
Giza'Msafara
Posted - 2011.01.19 21:59:00 - [9]
 

+1 i like the idea

The Bombers nerf need to be done for sure. I've propose a modification of ship-like type. Cause actually they are like cruisers (signature) and very too fast, they are almost impossible to kill with BS fleet. Double their sign and reduce their speed by 2 will be a good start. Reduce the dps, why not... After all, SC role is not to do lots of dps, that is the Titan role...


The RR bonus scare me a bit, large cap fleet with SC to remote them will unbalance the game (differently from now ^^)

SC already have the Remote ECM Burst I (who's an awesome idea), lets continue in the same way : Capital energy neut, Target painter Burst,...

Remove the RR bonus and with this SC will have his own role, they will become a new capital electronic warfare boat.


Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.01.19 22:35:00 - [10]
 

I don't know about your numbers, but it was entirely stupid on CCP's part to transform motherships into supercarriers that do a dread's job while tanking better and receiving remote reps.

They should revert the name change, lower the damage of fighter bombers as you suggest and increase their remote repping capabilities significantly.

I feel like this is a no brainer in terms of fixing capital warfare (and making dreads relevant again).

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2011.01.20 00:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Emperor Salazar
I don't know about your numbers, but it was entirely stupid on CCP's part to transform motherships into supercarriers that do a dread's job while tanking better and receiving remote reps.

They should revert the name change, lower the damage of fighter bombers as you suggest and increase their remote repping capabilities significantly.

I feel like this is a no brainer in terms of fixing capital warfare (and making dreads relevant again).


I dont know about your game history, but just about no one flew them pre buff. now people actually fly them, and if they didn't fly them, they would be more than likely sitting in titans.

Ascen
Posted - 2011.01.23 12:28:00 - [12]
 

Sounds like a feasible idea, better than the current situation.

Sonya Rayner
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.23 21:43:00 - [13]
 

This is an interesting idea, however 5-fold increase of repair power is a bit OP by me. It should be +200%. Or, alternatively, make it +500%, but change capacitor increase to +100% repairer cycle length, thus balancing cap usage. It will also ease up a bit alpha ability on caps being repped.

I'd also vote to change +3 figher/fb per level bonus to +1, as carriers get, but giving a role bonus of 100% bonus to fighter/fb hp and dps, just like the sansha's SC has. that would solve the "ohgoddronelag" problem as well :)

Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.23 21:51:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sonya Rayner
This is an interesting idea, however 5-fold increase of repair power is a bit OP by me.


Well i guess you are right, therefore i lowered the value to +250%.
Thats still decent compared to now, and doesn't makes them FOTM again.

Captain Die
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.23 22:17:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ascen
Sounds like a feasible idea, better than the current situation.

Parsee789
Posted - 2011.01.24 08:40:00 - [16]
 

More tank is boring. The game simply has too much of tank this and tank that. What really should be more in the game is gank.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.01.24 10:55:00 - [17]
 

I like this idea. SC's need to be returned to their logistics roots in order for them to fit in with all the other ships in eve. This is a very elegant and balanced solution I think. I don't think the concerns over too much active tank are valid. Note the lack of cap transfer reception ability on triage carriers. In a small gang, the way to beat a triage carrier is energy neuts, not raw dps. The same would apply here. You neut out the triage carriers and melt the SC's. Also, going after a mix of triage carriers and SC's without capitals of your own is terribly silly. Realistically you will have dreads/carriers on both sides.

TimT77
Posted - 2011.01.24 12:39:00 - [18]
 

I like this idea because it also solves the logofski problem of tackled supercapitals. There's no point to logof with reduced EHP when it causes your powerfull local reps to stop so tackled supers try to cope with the situation by actually playing the game instead of logging.

Lentor
Posted - 2011.01.24 18:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ascen
Sounds like a feasible idea, better than the current situation.

rock crawlermne
Posted - 2011.01.24 20:38:00 - [20]
 

at first i didn't like your idea...then i realized what it could mean...

I think cap ships in general need to be tweaked just a little...I dont like the idea of spanding a year of learning just to fly an over glorified logi ship. I want something deployable with mega DPS i can bring to a fight.

But your idea would give dreads a spot in battlefield warfare, not just pos bashing.
so as a younger pilot, i can chose now to either train for a dread and bring some punch, or a carrier and bring some logi....with the flexibilty of a little dps.
IDK, I dont fly cap ships yet...but you have my support

+1

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.01.24 21:16:00 - [21]
 

Well the skill training argument isn't really valid. The only differences between a normal carrier and a SC in terms of skill training are triage (carrier only) and fighter bombers (SC only). It was not suggested removing FB's, simply decreasing their damage.

Lord Rapture
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.24 21:23:00 - [22]
 

you are simply ******ed

Linas IV
Posted - 2011.01.27 20:45:00 - [23]
 

Bump, this needs adressing.

Fournone
Posted - 2011.01.28 04:36:00 - [24]
 

sounds like a decent idea, the +250% thing stills cares me a bit, but it does bring dreads back tot he fight

+1

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2011.01.28 04:55:00 - [25]
 

There isn't a problem with the current ship balance, the problem is that the ship is being over-produced.

3 supercaps in a fleet isn't overpowered. 30 is.

Nerf Production of supercaps....treat the disease not the symptom.

DrDooma
Posted - 2011.01.28 04:59:00 - [26]
 

Increase the aggression timer on super carriers to 30 minutes. That means the logoff tactic will no longer work. This in it self will have a signification impact on how they are used.

Beck Thomson
San Joaquin Navy
US Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.29 21:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: DrDooma
Increase the aggression timer on super carriers to 30 minutes. That means the logoff tactic will no longer work. This in it self will have a signification impact on how they are used.


^ That would be useless.

The OP has good ideas.

+1

Ascen
Posted - 2011.02.02 10:32:00 - [28]
 

+1 A Change is really needed

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.02.02 11:21:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Linas IV
Supercarriers as the highest logistic-Vessel in fleets (as they were always meant to be).

Since when? They started out as super-sized carriers, but due to the much lower cost of carriers they never assumed the role of fleet nannies.

In other words, it has already been tried and it didn't do the game or the ships any good.
With your suggestion SC's will be either mothballed again or supplant carriers like they are doing to Dreads now.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.02.02 15:12:00 - [30]
 

Motherships weren't used as fleet logistics because they were too fragile for the task. They needed a buff to their defenses and their RR ability to fill that role. The old motherships were slightly tougher carriers without any additional RR capability. They were underpowered for the price but a complete role change isn't what they needed. They needed love to their ship bonuses, HP and capacitors. Turning them into over powered dreads was the wrong move.


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