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blankseplocked Immoral behavior and EVE.
 
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Bernard Madripoff
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:11:00 - [331]
 

Edited by: Bernard Madripoff on 04/03/2011 20:17:07
You would be surprised. Depends how you pick and choose your relationships I guess. Calling out the ones that are asked to seek your attention can stimulate a good bedroom discussion itself. Mostly though that is when you actually *don't* think they look fat.

EDIT: no surpise there that the thread is ending. because after all most people are not really interested in discussing the philosophy behind their morals. they have simply fallen into them through external factors. it is too much hard work to actually debate the merits of your own and actually receptively see the merits in others', stuff that only philosophers seem to have time for in today's world. so at the end of the day the people calling foul on the scammers don't really have the patience to do through the laborious task of the aforementioned debate to achieve what they desire in EVE.

Daphne Q
Our Own Pirate Society
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:33:00 - [332]
 

Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Daphne Q
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Daphne Q
And to those who feel it is their place to judge or analyze the motives of players who are participating freely in the EVE environment, STFU! Nobody really cares!



This thread, and every other like it, is clear evidence that people do care, that you care Razz

And you know this, how exactly?

For instance, do you have clear proof that I do not simply enjoy picking fights on forums, that I don't just enjoy a good scrap now and then?

Do you have clear proof that I don't post in threads like this to show those who post so passionately that they are passionately wrong?

It was asserted in this thread that I am a self styled bastard. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Again, you should not assert things about which you could not possibly know. It makes you look...well, I'm sure that those who are still reading this thread will be able to fill in that blank.

The clear proof is right here: you do not deny it.

Instead, you go into a rant to end up saying somewhere, or not at all, that you do not care. Your argumentation is that of a car driver who takes a wrong turn, drives through a corn field, then crashes through a barn and comes out on another road, claiming that this was his destination all along. Who is ever going to believe you??

I'm sorry? You seem to be confused. There is nothing for me to deny.

You are looking at a very small part of a very large pattern, and drawing, incorrectly, of course, conclusions based on your extremely limited view.

I first got into this form of forum play on the Apolyton Off-Topic forums, way back when Civilization II was the hottest strategy game around. I've been doing it, as a form of entertainment, ever since.


Daphne Q
Our Own Pirate Society
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:43:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Bernard Madripoff
Edited by: Bernard Madripoff on 04/03/2011 20:17:07
You would be surprised. Depends how you pick and choose your relationships I guess. Calling out the ones that are asked to seek your attention can stimulate a good bedroom discussion itself. Mostly though that is when you actually *don't* think they look fat.

EDIT: no surpise there that the thread is ending. because after all most people are not really interested in discussing the philosophy behind their morals. they have simply fallen into them through external factors. it is too much hard work to actually debate the merits of your own and actually receptively see the merits in others', stuff that only philosophers seem to have time for in today's world. so at the end of the day the people calling foul on the scammers don't really have the patience to do through the laborious task of the aforementioned debate to achieve what they desire in EVE.
Discussion of morals? I happen to know that morals are absolute, and I know where my morals come from. I also know that if your morals are in disagreement with mine, then they are clearly wrong.

Simple as that.

Bernard Madripoff
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:47:00 - [334]
 

Originally by: Daphne Q

Discussion of morals? I happen to know that morals are absolute, and I know where my morals come from. I also know that if your morals are in disagreement with mine, then they are clearly wrong.

Simple as that.


Thanks you made things clear as day for me. I don't know why I couldn't see it before.

Daphne Q
Our Own Pirate Society
Posted - 2011.03.04 20:49:00 - [335]
 

No problem. Happy to do it. Very Happy

WIlly Fisterbottom
Posted - 2011.03.04 21:39:00 - [336]
 

Eve is a competitive environment, I see it just like I do Quake, CoD, Starcraft or any other competitive game. Everyone who is blue is on my team, everyone who isn't, well, isn't.

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.04 23:41:00 - [337]
 

u mad

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.05 00:26:00 - [338]
 

one thing i find peculiar is that people keep saying that it's just a game etc. why would you get upset about losing an imaginary ship and so on.

it's like they are totally unaware that it's not just an imaginary ship it's the product of X hours of work to get the isk to buy the imaginary ship.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.03.05 01:33:00 - [339]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 05/03/2011 01:36:43
Originally by: Karl Planck
OMG what happened to this thread. Its been hijacked by the bad philosophy terrorists!

And, lol btw. You must not be in a relationship if you haven't been hit with that one. Its a trick question (the answer is always you look beautiful dear because they are really only asking to get your attention).

Complete trust is not complete honesty and they are mutually inclusive.

In any case I feel this thread is nearing the end of its existence Crying or Very sad


LOL

Or you could write a convoluted essay that doesn't make a pointexcept that you have never been in a relationship with a woman. lol

I mean, just because jeans make you look fat doesn't mean you are fat..

Some people do a little reading without understanding what they are reading, plonk a few words of it down on a forum some where and expect people to think that they are an expert but cannot get the simplest, real life example of basic philosophy.

I find it funny.

SmilingVagrant
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.03.05 04:23:00 - [340]
 

Eve has had a profound effect on my life, I have started smoking the cigarettes and seeing loose women.

Bernard Madripoff
Posted - 2011.03.05 04:50:00 - [341]
 

Edited by: Bernard Madripoff on 05/03/2011 04:51:55
Originally by: Riedle
Edited by: Riedle on 05/03/2011 01:36:43
LOL

Or you could write a convoluted essay that doesn't make a pointexcept that you have never been in a relationship with a woman. lol

I mean, just because jeans make you look fat doesn't mean you are fat..

Some people do a little reading without understanding what they are reading, plonk a few words of it down on a forum some where and expect people to think that they are an expert but cannot get the simplest, real life example of basic philosophy.

I find it funny.


I addressed both possibilites just to be rigorous for you: being perceived fat inherently, or being perceived fat through clothing. perhaps someone else is at fault for not understanding what he is reading. naturally you choose this line of reply because it means you can beat your chest without adding any actual thought to the topic

Chai Bora
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Posted - 2011.03.05 09:55:00 - [342]
 

Originally by: Ehranavaar
one thing i find peculiar is that people keep saying that it's just a game etc. why would you get upset about losing an imaginary ship and so on.

it's like they are totally unaware that it's not just an imaginary ship it's the product of X hours of work to get the isk to buy the imaginary ship.


And if those hours weren't fun? And if you wouldn't be willing to do them all over again for said imaginary spaceship... WTF is the point of playing?

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.03.05 11:05:00 - [343]
 

Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar
one thing i find peculiar is that people keep saying that it's just a game etc. why would you get upset about losing an imaginary ship and so on.

it's like they are totally unaware that it's not just an imaginary ship it's the product of X hours of work to get the isk to buy the imaginary ship.


And if those hours weren't fun? And if you wouldn't be willing to do them all over again for said imaginary spaceship... WTF is the point of playing?

you missed difference between result and work to get this result.

Simple example: do you enjoy time you spend at office to make salary? Or maybe you enjoy spending salary? Most people enjoy getting and using result of a work.

And now try to imagine your boss says "Billy, i decided to not pay you for your work. I guess you got enough joy just from work itself". Will be you happy?

This is the same as you discuss here. Person worked to get money to buy shiny ship. And he bought this ship. And you can't be sure if he is happy by process or result.

Anyway. He spent hours to get ship and you spent minutes to make new stupid suicide char to gank him. Isn't it lame? Very Happy

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.03.05 11:42:00 - [344]
 


Quote:
I addressed both possibilites just to be rigorous for you: being perceived fat inherently, or being perceived fat through clothing. perhaps someone else is at fault for not understanding what he is reading. naturally you choose this line of reply because it means you can beat your chest without adding any actual thought to the topic


There is nothing to add. I have proven and provided examples of, that there are times when lying is the moral choice. If you knew that much about philosophy/ethics then you would not be arguiing against it and would already know that there are times where this is true. As I suspsected you are unable to see a simple, real life situation where this is true and commonplace because you are too busy caught up in the word play trying to make yourself look educated to see it. That is a classic example of not being able to see the forest for the trees. Tnank you for providing an example of it.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.03.05 11:46:00 - [345]
 

Edited by: Riedle on 05/03/2011 11:46:25
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
Originally by: Chai Bora
Originally by: Ehranavaar
one thing i find peculiar is that people keep saying that it's just a game etc. why would you get upset about losing an imaginary ship and so on.

it's like they are totally unaware that it's not just an imaginary ship it's the product of X hours of work to get the isk to buy the imaginary ship.


And if those hours weren't fun? And if you wouldn't be willing to do them all over again for said imaginary spaceship... WTF is the point of playing?

you missed difference between result and work to get this result.

Simple example: do you enjoy time you spend at office to make salary? Or maybe you enjoy spending salary? Most people enjoy getting and using result of a work.

And now try to imagine your boss says "Billy, i decided to not pay you for your work. I guess you got enough joy just from work itself". Will be you happy?

This is the same as you discuss here. Person worked to get money to buy shiny ship. And he bought this ship. And you can't be sure if he is happy by process or result.

Anyway. He spent hours to get ship and you spent minutes to make new stupid suicide char to gank him. Isn't it lame? Very Happy


Not the same at all. You can't even get the analogy correct.

You still got paid as you still missioned. An apt analogy is that you took your ferrari to the worst part of Detroit, left the keys in the ignition and leave it there for four days then come back and are astonished to discover that it is not there anymore.
lol

Chai Bora
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Posted - 2011.03.05 16:37:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Miss Rabblt
you missed difference between result and work to get this result.

Simple example: do you enjoy time you spend at office to make salary? Or maybe you enjoy spending salary? Most people enjoy getting and using result of a work.


You realize you're comparing a game to actual employment right? Rolling Eyes If EVE feels like working a job you don't enjoy, you might want to take a little time out, a few deep breaths and seriously examine your priorities.

Originally by: Miss Rabbit
Anyway. He spent hours to get ship and you spent minutes to make new stupid suicide char to gank him. Isn't it lame? Very Happy


It was a bit lame. The flashy lights on the screen were slightly exciting but left me feeling rather emotionally unfulfilled. Sad So I tried it a few more times and got the same results. I'll probably have to do it a number of more times just to be sure.

Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.05 20:15:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Iam Widdershins
You make a big deal about how all your arguments are high-minded, not to be understood by uneducated

First, I never said anything about education.
Second, I might be wrong, but judging from counter-arguments, this is so. I might be feeding trolls, yes, but meh. Let them eat and die from overfeeding.

Originally by: Iam Widdershins
All you are doing here is insisting that there are environments in real life, outside of games, that have the same ridiculous action/consequence model as EVE does. Name one environment in the real world that works like this and you might have an actual argument.

One word: society.

Originally by: Iam Widdershins
What's really impossible here is that you would actually read the responses being posted, make an attempt to understand them

I do. Maybe I miss something, and I'm sorry for that. But as discussions continue, the parts I misunderstood are usually coming up and are explained.

Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.05 20:40:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson

Your argument is built around a logical fallacy.

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form:

If P, then Q.
Q.
Therefore, P.

An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false).

I was under the impression I was using a different approach:

P is Q, unless X.
Remove X.
Q.
Therefore, P.

Like:
All cats do mess, unless trained.
Remove "trained".
Cats.
Therefore, mess.

Where's my mistake?

Bernard Madripoff
Posted - 2011.03.06 08:42:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Riedle

There is nothing to add. I have proven and provided examples of, that there are times when lying is the moral choice. If you knew that much about philosophy/ethics then you would not be arguiing against it and would already know that there are times where this is true. As I suspsected you are unable to see a simple, real life situation where this is true and commonplace because you are too busy caught up in the word play trying to make yourself look educated to see it. That is a classic example of not being able to see the forest for the trees. Tnank you for providing an example of it.


You did not prove in any which way that lying is the moral choice in your case. In fact the point is that such a thing cannot be proven. Whether lying is moral depends on the axioms you follow. For example, if you are a proponent of duty ethics (see http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/duty_1.shtml), you will not find it moral to lie for the consequentialist ends of satisfying your wife and your relationship's health.

My point was that there are at current contesting axioms between different schools of ethical thought (the ones which I mentioned in my original post). At current, these schools are in opposition but they have not been able to logically refute the axioms of the others'. That is why there can be no answer to questions such as "is it moral to scam in eve", or "is it moral to lie to my wife for x and y reason". Unless someone here is ready to publish something groundbreaking in the field of philosophy? If not, it really depends on your own core value and belief system. Something you cannot prove is the right thing to believe in, but which simply makes you "feel" in the right.

Sakide
Posted - 2011.03.06 16:23:00 - [350]
 


I am sure most poeple who like to lie and betray in game have less problem to behave similar outside the game than the people who feel uncomfortable in such situation.
They also should not be too interested to roleplay such traitors(scum, whatever), that sounds like a excuse.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.03.06 16:48:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Suiginryou Hitaiga
Originally by: Helicity Boson

Your argument is built around a logical fallacy.

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form:

If P, then Q.
Q.
Therefore, P.

An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false).

I was under the impression I was using a different approach:

P is Q, unless X.
Remove X.
Q.
Therefore, P.

Like:
All cats do mess, unless trained.
Remove "trained".
Cats.
Therefore, mess.

Where's my mistake?


Because your notion that X is the unique and only reason is not objective, not proven, and in your personal case, dead wrong.

Your logic is based on an assumption, which invalidates your entire argument.


Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.03.06 19:20:00 - [352]
 

Oh Helicity, structured logical arguements are appriciated. your making me want to bust out a few texts to provide a clear explanation as to why some of these arguements are so bonkers. My thanks to you for this (and hulkageddon)

To bernard: your really not doing anything productive here. Yes, it is a well known fact that nearly all of the moral theories are based on assumptions that cannot be proven in a scientific (philosophic) manner. That combined with the fact that most systems are based on foundations that are mutually exclusive make the point of trying to argue one agaist the other is usually stupid, or at the best reduces to stupid examples and namecalling (even if its dressed in fancy rhetoric).

What was more interesting was the original topic of can being a backstabber to your 'friends' in EVE even be considered for moral treatment. Digressing into high school level, text book philosophy 101 isn't doing anyone here any good, especially because you make no attempt to make any real arguement.

Bernard Madripoff
Posted - 2011.03.06 23:57:00 - [353]
 

If you could forgive my "high-school" philosophy 101 textbook knowledge for one second, maybe you could see that such novice information is useful to this situation. Whether anything can be considered for moral debate depends on your own stance with regards to appropriate ethics.

Basically I was pointing out that people from different schools of ethical thought (perhaps unbeknownst to them) were debating the morality of such scamming. This is an impossible situation. You first need to lay out your axioms to the other party (for example, if you are bound by virtue ethics, no deceptive leeway would ever be allowed, whereas if you are bound by duty ethics, leeway to lie is permissible provided they work under the framework of duties you follow). Without laying down such groundwork, having such an argument on "morality", whatever that would even mean, is futile.

ScooterPuff Sr
Posted - 2011.03.07 14:37:00 - [354]
 

somewhere on the internets is a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head. therefor your arguement is invalid.

Dream Nine
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:35:00 - [355]
 

Rofl is this a thread for all the sociopaths having a hard time scamming other people IRL because they are afraid to go to jail?

Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2011.03.08 07:42:00 - [356]
 

Down at an english fair one evening I was there
When I heard a showman shouting underneath the flair

Iíve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
There they are all standing in a row
Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head
Give them a twist a flick of the wrist
Thatís what the showman said
Iíve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
Every ball you throw will make me rich
There stands my wife, the idol of me life
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball, roll a bowl a ball
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Iíve got a lovely bunch of coconuts (theyíre lovely)
There they are all standing in a row (one, two, three, four)
Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head (and bigger)
Give them a twist a flick of the wrist
Thatís what the showman said
Iíve got a lovely bunch of coconuts
Every ball you throw will make me rich
There stands my wife, the idol of me life
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch (all together now)
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch (harmony)
Roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch
Roll a bowl a ball, roll a bowl a ball
Singing roll a bowl a ball a penny a pitch

Belfelmalak
Posted - 2011.03.08 11:29:00 - [357]
 

When you play Monopoly do you make your friends pay you for landing on Boardwalk? You do? Now how DO you sleep at night?

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.03.08 14:21:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
When you play Monopoly do you make your friends pay you for landing on Boardwalk? You do? Now how DO you sleep at night?


Exactly what I was thinking.

OP = dummy.

Mighty Dread
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.08 16:48:00 - [359]
 

I don't see why the OP should be criticized, he merely asked if there was a moral line in EVE which perhaps should not be crossed or if EVE is essentially an anything goes kind of game. Perhaps more specifically if befriending a fellow person in EVE holds any weight as a true and valuable friendship or if it is generally considered acceptable to scam, steal, blow up those who you have befriended or have befriended you ingame.

I don't think the Monopoly analogy works. More like if you were playing football, is it acceptable to throw the game and/or walk over and beat up one or more of your fellow teammates mid game because either somehow you saw it as more profitable or generally wanted to be an a**? OR perhaps more like hockey where a certain degree of violence is acceptable but does that mean one should go about the game hacking other players in the face with their stick?

As I said before EVE's gameplay sets the moral bar pretty low and I think to a larger extent it is up to the players to choose where they will draw the line. Perhaps the only group in EVE willing to play honorably and in the spirit of good sportsmanship is the Role Players. They set themselves certain self imposed rules above and beyond the rules of EVE in order to enjoy the game as part of a storyline. However I believe EVE has become increasingly unfriendly to those who want to RP ingame to the point it just seems like a wasted effort. When the gameplay becomes all about obtaining virtual stuff, the game mechanics allow players to cheat their way to that goal and you couple that with a generation of people who've been inundated with idea that they can have anything they want right now without earning it first, well...

Menardii
Viziam
Posted - 2011.03.08 16:50:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Belfelmalak
When you play Monopoly do you make your friends pay you for landing on Boardwalk? You do? Now how DO you sleep at night?


No, he screams "THIS WILL BE DEALT WITH!" and smacks all the pieces off the board, calling his friends Griefers, bullies, etc. Then he runs off and hides in his RL NPC corp.


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