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Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.22 06:47:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 22/07/2011 07:20:01
Agree with you on most points.

Though you mistake my wish, I just want to see facts of this nerfbat that gallente got hit with. Not just rely on anecdotal evidences. As mine and your opinion on ships both can differ given our experiences in the game, so can the opinions of people who each think that it's not balanced.

So what was the thing that CCP that nerf'd gallente, and only gallente?
I'm just wary that this is an endless cycle, if taken overboard. And we will all be here in 1 years time crying "rebalance Amarr" next.

I'm for rebalancing. But also use of caution in doing so.

Besides just because nobody calls for a proteus, doesn't necessarily mean that a proteus can't whoop a tengu's nose if fitted for it. The capability of the ship has a lot to do with the fitter, and this is really just an argument for maxxed out lvl5 optimal dps&ehp fit vs optimal lvl5 dps&ehp fit right? I also think its possible that FCs don't call for certain ships because they favour certain tactics that they know. Differences may demand them to adapt and do something different. For example, the very fact that gallent BCs aren't that popular means that they are cheaper. So from certain perspectives for a isk tight gang, being gallente pilots could mean they spend less isk for their warchest. These are just some potential positive effects that differentiation gives us. It's not always good to think of optimal lvl5 toe to toe shoot out comparisons in a 'real' economy like eve. Another thing to consider is that although matari ships rule in spec comparisons, traning a good matari pilot takes much longer than an equivalent Gallentean or Caldari. They have to train projectiles, armor tanking and shield tanking, and missles. Other races, especially amarr have much less places to spread their SP to be proficient in a wide range of ships.


Dear me... but I digress.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.22 08:57:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Another thing to consider is that although matari ships rule in spec comparisons, traning a good matari pilot takes much longer than an equivalent Gallentean or Caldari. They have to train projectiles, armor tanking and shield tanking, and missles. Other races, especially amarr have much less places to spread their SP to be proficient in a wide range of ships.



That is not really true.

You can fit next to any ships fitted with missiles wit neuts to.

Amarr and Caldari both have pure turret and missile ships and some hulls that need tank cross skilling to be effective(AT scorp, shield harbinger / curse etc.).

Gallente are just as much as a split ST/AT race as minmatar today and also require high SP amounts in lots of combat related(drones, guns) as well as in support categories(tank, speed, cap) to work.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:12:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Ogogov on 22/07/2011 14:12:58
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 22/07/2011 07:20:01
Agree with you on most points.

Though you mistake my wish, I just want to see facts of this nerfbat that gallente got hit with. Not just rely on anecdotal evidences. As mine and your opinion on ships both can differ given our experiences in the game, so can the opinions of people who each think that it's not balanced.


Gallente ships originally fielded drones much like carriers do - extra drone per level. The server couldn't keep up with it so that's why there's a hard limit of 5 drones per sub-capital ship. Drone HP and DPS got buffed to compensate, but this was way before my time so I'm unsure of the specifics.

Blasters got nerfed by way of two things. First, 'nanoing' ships was nerfed, again unsure of the specifics due to it being in eve's age of antiquity. This meant that you could no longer out fit a heavily armored Gallente ship in such a way whereby it could still dictate range and disengage. Then again you could get ridiculous things like a 1200m/s dominix...
Blasters were also hard hit by the web nerf. Look at a Vindicator or Vigilant to see the only effective web/blaster ships for reference.

Gallente ships were hard-hit by the ability of Warp Scrams to shut down Microwarp drives. This means that within 10k - incidentally the range of the primary Gallente weapons system - the ship once again can't dictate range.

Gallente ships were hit bad by the explosive hole - I'm lead to believe at once point armor had low thermal resistance instead of explosive resistance. Hybrids no longer do 'good' damage.

I'm sure someone who has been here since "the beginning" can expand upon these points/verify them and offer up new ones, but these are the ones I've heard about.

Quote:
Besides just because nobody calls for a proteus, doesn't necessarily mean that a proteus can't whoop a tengu's nose if fitted for it.


Nobody calls for a proteus because it isn't a good ship. It's most effective role is as an armor brick mini-megathron or as a cloaky u-boat. It is nerfed on drones, it is crippled by railguns and who in their right mind would take a 1.5bln isk ship into scram range???? The fits are simply too situational to offer any kind of tactical flexibility and it makes too much of a juicy target to bother taking on roams. It's E-WAR fit suffers from the idiotic state of Gallente E-war bonuses (bonus to jammers, wot?) that won't stack properly.


Quote:
For example, the very fact that gallent BCs aren't that popular means that they are cheaper. So from certain perspectives for a isk tight gang, being gallente pilots could mean they spend less isk for their warchest.


That is an incredibly weak argument when you're talking about a difference of 1-3mln ISK, tops. Either way, the ISK doesn't matter as much as the fact that you can't get on killmails and you're more likely to die. By the time you are using these ships on roams, chances are you don't want to spend 20m buying modules and parts then burning through 20 gates to catch up to where the action is. Better to just bring a useful ship which fits with the FC's tactical doctrine.

Gallente are out in fleet fights for much the same reasons... the only ship that is ever called for is a Lachesis and it's a distance second to a Huginn anyhow.

Quote:
traning a good matari pilot takes much longer than an equivalent Gallentean or Caldari. They have to train projectiles, armor tanking and shield tanking, and missles.


The Gallente pilot has to train everything the Matari pilot does, with the caveat that hybrid skills are so useless most train projectiles anyway and fit them (unbonused) onto Gallente hulls. Then there's the necessity of near-perfect support skills so your ship won't cap out, or drone skills to take advantage of the droneboats. The SP cost is massive for very little gain.

Rawbone
Gallente
S3MINAL FLUID
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.07.22 23:34:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 22/07/2011 07:20:01
I'm just wary that this is an endless cycle, if taken overboard. And we will all be here in 1 years time crying "rebalance Amarr" next.

My first training was gallente, but I wanted to PvP, so I cross-trained amarr. Zealot is a great ship, I prefer pilgrim to arazu and curse to Lachesis. Harbinger over Myrmidon, Apoc over mega, abaddon over Hyperion. And personally I prefer amarr caps over gallente caps. Players who fly Amarr do very well, thankyou.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I also think its possible that FCs don't call for certain ships because they favour certain tactics that they know.


Good FC's are good FC's because they know the capabilities of they ships they want in a fleet and the capabilities of the ships they might face. If a player doesn't know how to best use a myrmidon, he's not an FC more than once. FC's have one simple rule when calling a fleet- "I want the best combination of DPS, Logistics and support i can possibly field- leave your megathrons at home."

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
For example, the very fact that gallent BCs aren't that popular means that they are cheaper. So from certain perspectives for a isk tight gang, being gallente pilots could mean they spend less isk for their warchest.

I actually had respect for your arguments until you said this. Seriously? it's an advantage to have a ****ty ship beacuse it's cheaper than a good one? It make's financial sense? I can only shake my head. It reminds me of when Canadian soldiers were deployed to Afghanistan in their forest camo because the Government of the day wouldn't buy desert camo. "It tricks the eye," they said.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

Another thing to consider is that although matari ships rule in spec comparisons, traning a good matari pilot takes much longer than an equivalent Gallentean or Caldari. They have to train projectiles, armor tanking and shield tanking, and missles. Other races, especially amarr have much less places to spread their SP to be proficient in a wide range of ships.



One of the good gallente ships is the ishtar, but for it to be any more than a mission runner it needs to be shield tanked, therefore a gallente pvper trains shield. Myrmidon, Dominix and Ishtar are all drone boats- exclusively. gallente need to train drones, but not just drones because the diemost, brutix and mega are all hybrid platforms, gallente must train hybrid with the same support skills required by matar. Matar need to only train Projectiles, and don't jump in with missile boats- each race has one or two of them, except the caldari- they have mostly missile boats with one or 2 hybrid platforms.



Darknesss
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.07.23 01:25:00 - [275]
 

<3 Gallente

Dyvim Slorm
Robonia

Posted - 2011.07.23 17:37:00 - [276]
 

Supported

Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.07.23 23:22:00 - [277]
 

yes

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.24 03:36:00 - [278]
 

The most fitting fix then would be to put back the drone buff once ccp gets servers that can handle it.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.24 03:49:00 - [279]
 

Thank you everyone who took the time to elaborate the details of the nerfs. They all seem to be innocent by themselves, addressing different issues but as a whole they affected gallente most.
But they all seem to affect fleet pvp exclusively.

I would support then some selective buffs to a couple of ships to make them fill some holes in a fleet composition, but not a broad based racial wide buff ( unless it's the aforementioned drone one ) his is because I am comfortable with an imbalance in the sense that some races are better at fleet battles ( or any other single aspect of eve ) than others, so long as they enjoy an advantage elsewhere in the game, for example, solo pve, or pirate ships.
I dont know if factional war is such an example, but the fact that gallente leads fw scoreboards may indicate something there, or maybe not.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.24 04:01:00 - [280]
 

Quote:
Nobody calls for a proteus because it isn't a good ship. It's most effective role is as an armor brick mini-megathron or as a cloaky u-boat.


You may well be right. But all I am saying is that as long as it's good at something unique, then it's a difference that adds character to the game. Perhaps if Uboat strategy comes into demand, the proteuses will be called for. ( I'm speaking generally )
I don't think that each ( for instance ) T3 ship should be equal to others in terms of functionality or effectiveness for something specific like dps or ehp. If that were the case then we can argue about why matari frieghters are the weakest, and how everyone prefers gallente iterons.
As long as gallente ships give something unique, then it's okay, just because their abilities don't make them too useful at the moment in fleets, isn't a good reason to make some large-scale buff that may cause other imbalances elsewhere. That being said, buffing the speed of some fleet geared gallente ships or boost their drones some how would be acceptable

Bo Kantrel
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.24 06:03:00 - [281]
 


Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
Posted - 2011.07.24 10:11:00 - [282]
 

Do it

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.

Posted - 2011.07.24 10:44:00 - [283]
 

**** yes.

buee
Gallente
Valor Inc.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.07.24 15:59:00 - [284]
 

110% Support.

I've had countless converstaions with others on this subject. Gallente ships are obsolete as it currently stands. They require armor tanks, which makes them significantly slower than other races (except amarr), while requireing extreme closer range in order to be effective. It doesn't seem to make sense. By the time you get in range, you're already into half armor.

SUPPOOORRTTTTT

Dare Devel
Caldari
Perkone

Posted - 2011.07.25 06:44:00 - [285]
 

Yes.

Why is this issue not in "July 2011 Prioritization Crowdsourcing" list? Shocked

Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge

Posted - 2011.07.25 06:58:00 - [286]
 

I support this topic, buff hybrids!

Chris Cochrane
The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.07.25 07:18:00 - [287]
 

The only Gallente ships I see old players pvping in these days are the Ishkur, Vigilant, (long point) Arazu, Thanatos and the Nyx, and even then its rare, please re-balance the Gallente.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.25 08:11:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 06:58:50
Originally by: Super Chair
I support this topic, buff hybrids!


No on this! This would buff caldari as well.
Yes on making some gallente ships better in ways like using rails or speed bonuses or something racially congruent.

The list of gallente ships used in fleets looks longer than caldari ones :)
Not to mention the proteus and myrm are popular ships for wormhole corps I hear, so it seems there as uses for gallente ships, just not null sec fleets.

Instead of balancing the traditional (linear and boring) way why not give gallente a bonus related to their advanced automation technology? If ships had crew this could be used in a very story congruent way. Gallente ships need fewer crew, minmatar the most etc. Just an idea. In fact I'll start a new thread on it.

Kytayn
Gallente
Kronos TEchnologies
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:26:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 06:58:50
Originally by: Super Chair
I support this topic, buff hybrids!


No on this! This would buff caldari as well.
Yes on making some gallente ships better in ways like using rails or speed bonuses or something racially congruent.

The list of gallente ships used in fleets looks longer than caldari ones :)
Not to mention the proteus and myrm are popular ships for wormhole corps I hear, so it seems there as uses for gallente ships, just not null sec fleets.

Instead of balancing the traditional (linear and boring) way why not give gallente a bonus related to their advanced automation technology? If ships had crew this could be used in a very story congruent way. Gallente ships need fewer crew, minmatar the most etc. Just an idea. In fact I'll start a new thread on it.

I thought the advantage of being a capsuleer was that this advanced Jovian technology permitted one person to pilot a ship that normally requires a full crew. The lore is that capsuleers are special because the way they train skills and pilot a pod permits their one brain to replace an entire ship's crew.

In short, the capsule is the advanced automation.

I agree with you on buffing the Gallente ships and not just hybrids in general. More PG, tracking bonuses... Give me that and I'll find a way to make the ship faster.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:41:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Kytayn
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 06:58:50
Originally by: Super Chair
I support this topic, buff hybrids!


No on this! This would buff caldari as well.
Yes on making some gallente ships better in ways like using rails or speed bonuses or something racially congruent.

The list of gallente ships used in fleets looks longer than caldari ones :)
Not to mention the proteus and myrm are popular ships for wormhole corps I hear, so it seems there as uses for gallente ships, just not null sec fleets.

Instead of balancing the traditional (linear and boring) way why not give gallente a bonus related to their advanced automation technology? If ships had crew this could be used in a very story congruent way. Gallente ships need fewer crew, minmatar the most etc. Just an idea. In fact I'll start a new thread on it.

I thought the advantage of being a capsuleer was that this advanced Jovian technology permitted one person to pilot a ship that normally requires a full crew. The lore is that capsuleers are special because the way they train skills and pilot a pod permits their one brain to replace an entire ship's crew.

In short, the capsule is the advanced automation.

I agree with you on buffing the Gallente ships and not just hybrids in general. More PG, tracking bonuses... Give me that and I'll find a way to make the ship faster.



Actually checkout the article in the latest EON. Crew has always been there in your ship. Yes as a capsuleer you need less crew but there is crew nevertheless. CCP have not released 'official' numbers as likely they want to keep the freedom to change the numbers for play balance once they do release the 'Populus' patch (CCP, I'm taking credit for naming this patch if you use it!:)
But here are some round figures they released as guidelines:

Class/ minimum crew (npc )/minimum crew (capsuleer)
Shuttle 1-2 0
Frigate 2-10 1-3
Destroyer 10-30 6-20
Cruiser 20-75 10-50
Bc 40-170 15-100
Bs 200-550 100-300
Carrier 700-1500 350-700
dread 600-1200 300-800
Supercarrier 1500-3000 1000-1700
Titan 6000-10000 3000-6000

razumenko
Posted - 2011.07.28 09:32:00 - [291]
 

+1
/supported

Tinilla
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.28 10:51:00 - [292]
 

Voted

David Fightmaster
Gallente
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:06:00 - [293]
 

supported.

AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2011.07.28 18:49:00 - [294]
 

/signed

Kytayn
Gallente
Kronos TEchnologies
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:03:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Kytayn

I thought the advantage of being a capsuleer was that this advanced Jovian technology permitted one person to pilot a ship that normally requires a full crew. The lore is that capsuleers are special because the way they train skills and pilot a pod permits their one brain to replace an entire ship's crew.

In short, the capsule is the advanced automation.

I agree with you on buffing the Gallente ships and not just hybrids in general. More PG, tracking bonuses... Give me that and I'll find a way to make the ship faster.



Actually checkout the article in the latest EON. Crew has always been there in your ship. Yes as a capsuleer you need less crew but there is crew nevertheless. CCP have not released 'official' numbers as likely they want to keep the freedom to change the numbers for play balance once they do release the 'Populus' patch (CCP, I'm taking credit for naming this patch if you use it!:)
But here are some round figures they released as guidelines:

Class/ minimum crew (npc )/minimum crew (capsuleer)
Shuttle 1-2 0
Frigate 2-10 1-3
Destroyer 10-30 6-20
Cruiser 20-75 10-50
Bc 40-170 15-100
Bs 200-550 100-300
Carrier 700-1500 350-700
dread 600-1200 300-800
Supercarrier 1500-3000 1000-1700
Titan 6000-10000 3000-6000


I hadn't seen that, thanks.

Fettered Soul
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:28:00 - [296]
 

Gallente was my first race. I learned all weapon and t1 ships (subcapital). After starting PVP I crosstrained to Minmatar and Amarr.
Amarr have fantastic range versatility with Scorch => they do not need to range dictate, they hit hard at any distance.
Minmatar have many advantages: switchable damage types, ship speed, weapon do not use CAP, due to speed and agility it is possible to use even long range turret in PVP (Arty)
So what we have for PVP from Gallente? There are only drone ships. All other ships have better Min or Amarr counterparts.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 04:13:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Fettered Soul
Gallente was my first race. I learned all weapon and t1 ships (subcapital). After starting PVP I crosstrained to Minmatar and Amarr.
Amarr have fantastic range versatility with Scorch => they do not need to range dictate, they hit hard at any distance.
Minmatar have many advantages: switchable damage types, ship speed, weapon do not use CAP, due to speed and agility it is possible to use even long range turret in PVP (Arty)
So what we have for PVP from Gallente? There are only drone ships. All other ships have better Min or Amarr counterparts.


And that's why I think with the addition of crew damage, you can at least say that a gallentean fleet can withstand the most damage and keep hitting. Minni's have high alpha, but wear them down and their ships start falling apart, slowing down, loose turret tracking. According to CCP lore, the required crews rank with Gallente needing the fewest (at the low end of the range), then Amarr, Caldairi, finally Matari.

It sort of opens a different dimension in fleet tactics I think, you can hit hard and fast with Matari, but if you are expecting a drawn out battle, on a long expedition into enemy 0.0 territory or WH and will be far from crew resupply, Gallentean ships will win the endurance race, so better bring some along for fleet durability.

Lakitel
Posted - 2011.07.31 08:33:00 - [298]
 

/Supported

And personally I think that not only hybrids should be buffed, but also drones and Gallente ships in general. I'm not saying that we should be OP'ed but we do need a few boosts here and there.

TheExtruder
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:50:00 - [299]
 

+1 !

KyeLei
Posted - 2011.07.31 22:28:00 - [300]
 

/signed


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