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Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.01.20 00:30:00 - [61]
 

Upon further inspection of my planets, Ive found that most of my ECUs are not producing the correct amounts, but some are . . . now im very confused . . .

It does seem though, that the problem is exacerbated by longer cycle times.

olsted
Posted - 2011.01.20 05:23:00 - [62]
 

Heres some screenshots illustrating the brokenness of extraction and routing.

Firstly, heres a grab showing my extractor happily chugging along on a program. Note that its on a two hour cycle and that it claims to be harvesting 82015 units this cycle. Note also that in the products window which I have selected, I am able to create a route for 19339 units only. Nowhere is it said what that 19339 units translates into, but it is not an even multiple of 82015.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Between the first and second grabs, I route the 19339 units to the launchpad.

Now look at the second grab. This shows the properties of the link connecting the extractor to the launchpad, across wich the route I just created flows. Note that this is a L2 link with a max capacity of 1000m3/hr and that it is only transiting 96.695m3/hr. At the size of the non-cs crystals (0.01m3/ea), this works out to 9669.5units/hr transiting this link. This number is exactly half of the units being routed above.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

My conclusion based upon this is that the route units are per cycle as their volume fits the utilization listed for the link.

What is broken here is that this extractor is supposed to be generating 82015 units this cycle, but I am only allowed to route 19339 of them, dropping the rest all over the planets surface.

Please someone from CCP chime in here and say if this is broken or if I am missing something fundamental here. As it stands, PI seems to be non functional.

Chelone
Outside The Asylum
Posted - 2011.01.20 05:46:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Gamingloser1
Isn't that a big swing as far as percentage. Both of my planetology skills are at a 4. Getting less than 50% of estimate is a big swing.


I've not yet contaminated myself with the filth that is the new PI. However, I can tell you from my experience prior that the planetology skills were very POOR indicators of the real hotspots.

I had several characters already setup on a planet, so I knew where the real hotspots where from trial and error with lots of test extractors. That was the best way to do it, by the way. One of my characters was about to finish a level of Planetology so I thought "this will be fun, I can see how far the colored 'hotspot' moves to the actual hotspot when I level up." After leveling up, the visible hotspot had moved AWAY FROM THE REAL ONE.

Judging from what you're saying, it seems nothing has been improved in this respect. Seems you're not getting anywhere near accurate information even with "good" 4/4 planetology skills.

If there's still any way to find the real hotspots with test extractors, I'd try that. However, if you would have to keep paying the cost of the destroyed extractors, now not just one time before the long-term placement but instead every !%$# time you extract, I don't know if that would be worth it. If it's even possible anymore.

Natan Tragovian
Posted - 2011.01.20 09:20:00 - [64]
 

I thought I was going crazy then I came on here and saw this thread, with everyone having the exact same problem.

I don't know who at CCP thought up this system, or why it was even allowed past the idea phase.

To be honest, I would rather have the old clickfest back. At least we knew how to do it and it wasn't a guessing game.

The new mechanic doesn't even make sense from a realism standpoint. You put down an extractor setup on Tuesday, and on Wednesday you have to move it a thousand kilometers because you extracted all of the 7,500 m^3 node? Seriously?

AS LordASB
Posted - 2011.01.20 10:19:00 - [65]
 

hi fokes

sending this from mobile so hanging if formatting pants

i have had a reply to my bug report, see copy below

Hello lordasb,
Thank you for your bugreport - ID:105832 Title: problems with output levels in PI
We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system.

The BugHunter Team

andy

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.20 10:30:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Sam Brockson
Originally by: Gamingloser1
This is a complaint about output per hour seems to jumping around:


If you are referring to the numbers under Output (Output per hour and total output) on the bottom right of the ECU survey screen, the Per Hour number displayed is a percentage of the Total Output and at best used as an average to keep your extractors running. I have noticed on a 5 hour run, the Per Hour percentage displayed is 20% of the Total Output and 10% on a 10 hour run.

So far, from my experimentation, it's best to move the drill heads around for maximum output - usually only one head is in the center of a red spot, a few are on the fringe between red and orange, and the rest between orange and yellow.


This strategy seems to work best for me as well.

Horror Master
Preeternal Spark
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2011.01.20 11:00:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: AS LordASB
hi fokes

sending this from mobile so hanging if formatting pants

i have had a reply to my bug report, see copy below

Hello lordasb,
Thank you for your bugreport - ID:105832 Title: problems with output levels in PI
We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system.

The BugHunter Team

andy

Thanks for update, hope they fix this soon.

AS LordASB
Posted - 2011.01.20 12:38:00 - [68]
 

i would agree, at least we have some word that there is a problem and we are not all going loopy

Kile Kitmoore
Posted - 2011.01.20 18:38:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: AS LordASB
hi fokes

sending this from mobile so hanging if formatting pants

i have had a reply to my bug report, see copy below

Hello lordasb,
Thank you for your bugreport - ID:105832 Title: problems with output levels in PI
We are already aware of this problem, and have added your bugreport to the existing issue in our defect tracking system.

The BugHunter Team

andy


Thanks for the update.

The old PI system, clickfest, was fun during the planning and building stage but once you start managing your planets it became mundane really quick. The new system appears better but my biggest problem is trusting numbers and information presented to me so I can make decisions. In the old system your trying to maintain an equilibrium between extractors and processors which was the challenge at first. The new system looks like it will be much easier to establish this equilibrium but only if the numbers are accurate and the UI doesn't get in our way. Depletion is fine but if my extraction is reduced by something like another player the UI should inform and describe the degree.

Reading all these threads on PI it seems like everyone is guessing what the devs intentions were toward one thing or another. They don't want P3-P4 manufacturing on a single planet? More interaction? Reduced output? Undermine any botting? I think a devblog documenting the new system but also the design philosophy would be helpful.

Hopefully once the new system is a bit clearer and the bugs are worked out it could be a foundation which to build upon. I guess we will see.

olsted
Posted - 2011.01.20 19:04:00 - [70]
 

Thx for the update. Time to stop my PI till they fix the routing. No point in depleting my hotspots for nothing.

-O.

JAG Solex
GunStars
Posted - 2011.01.20 20:53:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: JAG Solex on 20/01/2011 21:00:43


Hi folks. Late to the thread, but I wanted to give my feedback. I'm doing a 1 day program with 15 min. cycles. I'm just extracting right now, so it's pretty easy to follow what's happening. So far my program is giving me exactly what it says it should be. When you move your mouse over the program segements it tells you the cycle count, how much being extracted on this cycle as well as the total accumulated so far. That is dead on for me. The routing though seems fubar. It always displays the same amount, and doesn't seem to have any relation to anything. For example, for the past 5 15 min. cycles the program extraction has followed exactly at just over 20k per cycle, but the routing has stayed the same at 39,112 (units?). When I click on the link it's showing 78.22%, capacity at 2000 m3/hr and currently using 1564.48 m3/hr.

tldr: the program and extraction amounts seem to be correct, but the routing seems bugged.


SirFur
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.01.20 22:15:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: SirFur on 20/01/2011 22:20:05
Originally by: Steve Thomas
ok one last time...................
..........

end of line.


Steve you really need to calm down a bit, mate. Answering a concern like that won't do anyone any favours and will just simply aggravate the situation. If someone doesn't understand something when someone explains it to them it's usually not being explained properly, or the explanation is incorrect and telling folks to quite EvE as a result is a little silly. Sometimes folks take time to realise what the problem is, but either way if you find it so annoying having to answer such concerns or questions as you think them trivial then please don't comment.

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.20 22:55:00 - [73]
 

I agree with JAG Solex. Running 24hour programs with 15m cycles, quantity of P0 being delivered to my lauchpad match exactly with what the graph says.

I have all PI skills at lvl 5

If I click on the ECU, the figure shown for Current Cycle Output is the quantity transferred at the end of the last cycle, nothing to do with the quantity for the current cycle.

Clicking on a link, the routing figure doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to anything, for example on one planet, I have 2 ECUs connected to my launchpad, each with a dedicated link. In the first 2 cycles, ECU1 extracted and transferred 16147 and 15386 units of P0, and the route is showing 16349, 654.76m3 per hour. ECU2 transferred 9252 and 8802 units of P0 and the route is showing 15701, 628.04m3 per hour.

I've done 6 of my 24 planets so far (2 straight after patch which have now completed 24h programs). Bear in mind all I'm doing on each planet is making P1 for export, and I'm using Elite CCs. I deleted all my old colony except the CC and launchpad each time. I placed an ECU either side of the LP as close as I could get them, then 6-9 (based on what I had before) basic processors split equally above and below (I use the slightly less efficient square layout rather than the hexagonal one). Link both ECUs to the LP, then 1 link up and 1 down to the groups of processors. Upgrade the processors links to Lvl1, and the ECU links to Lvl2. Depending on the planet type, and the number of processors I have, I can then generally lay down 10-12 extractor heads split evenly between the 2 ECUs. Then using the Output Per Hour figure in the lower right of the program screen I add/remove processors/extractor heads until the total Output Per Hour of the 2 ECUs is roughly equal (or preferably slightly higher) than 6000 * the number of processors. I have found that so far this calculation is 100% accurate.

The cost of an extractor head doesn't vary depending on the distance the head is from the ECU, it is a fixed amount now, compared to before where putting extractors further away cost you in terms of the link grid/cpu usage. Hence why I put my ECUs right up next to my LP, minimize grid/cpu costs for the links, especially as you virtually HAVE to upgrade a link coming out an ECU because the link has to be able to handle the maximum output form all the heads, which can be considerably more than the average output if you are running long programs.

Under the old system, I had my planets set so if I ran 5h cycles I would have a surplus of P0 and with 23h cycles a deficit. So far under the new system I've managed to get all 6 planets having a surplus of P0 from a 24h cycle and the number of processors has either stayed the same as before (4 planets) or I've managed to get an extra processor down (2 planets).

My only complaint with the new system is that under the old system I could restart extractors on 24 planets in under 25m with one of my mouse buttons remapped to double-click (Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 4 button mouse) because the hotzones hardly moved. It's going to take a lot longer to make sure the extractor heads on 24 planets are in the optimal position for the next 24h program.

Drahcir

JAG Solex
GunStars
Posted - 2011.01.20 23:15:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Drahcir Nasom

My only complaint with the new system is that under the old system I could restart extractors on 24 planets in under 25m with one of my mouse buttons remapped to double-click (Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 4 button mouse) because the hotzones hardly moved. It's going to take a lot longer to make sure the extractor heads on 24 planets are in the optimal position for the next 24h program.

Drahcir



Yup. This is going to be a pain in the ass with the current depletion rate. Not only am I extracting 1/3 less than I used to from 5 hr cycles, but moving heads to get another hotspot will take more time. We will have to see if it's worth the effort. Maybe it will be if the price of PI goes up.

Biirk
Posted - 2011.01.20 23:23:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Biirk on 20/01/2011 23:38:51
In, My, experience ,,. (with 30 min, and one hour cycles)

The first expected yield figure, relates closely to the 'colormap'. ('exactly', I expect - it takes a reading from the center of the dot)

What you get when you install the program, relates to where the 'colormap', 'Really' is.

The 'routing amount number' (to storage) is an HOURley amount. And it should be about the average hourley rate in the ECU thingy. Mine was allways a bit lower. When I calculated one time it was 4% lower. [:shrug:]

The Routing amount and the number of units delivered per cycle, and/or hour, have NOTHING to do with the individual cycle you just completed. Shocked

The stuff must be 'held in storage' at the ECU and sent 'home' in the constant, managable, average hourley rate.

Shocked ! v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v !


So. All that fancy ghraph shiz is just an indicator of how much more depleted the area will be after you complete, (or delete) the 'program' Wink

Shocked ! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ !

I certainly can be wrong. And I have not experimented all that much. (nore payed attention that closely when I was Embarassed ) But that how it looks to me.

Borgholio
Minmatar
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2011.01.20 23:27:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Borgholio on 21/01/2011 00:44:26
Edited by: Borgholio on 21/01/2011 00:42:32
Edited by: Borgholio on 21/01/2011 00:24:17
I too am having the same issue. The number of units extracted per cycle on the survey screen do not even come close to the number of units actually delivered to my launchpad. When clicking the ECU and clicking on "route" then the number shown there IS in fact accurate. With my current setup, all 8 heads should pull around 45k Non-CS Crystals per cycle. In actuality they're pulling about 5k. A slight difference there...

So I ran a test with a short (1 hour) program. With the 1 hour program, at least, the first 15m cycle was perfect. Right on the money in terms of the amount quoted on the Survey Screen and the amount on the Route tab. Aside from being a nasty bug, I think that the issue may be link capacity. If I went back to my original setup where I'd pull 45k crystals every 4 hours, then that means every four hours there would be a burst of traffic on the link worth over 450m3 of space. That's more than a Level 1 link can support. So I re-started the program with 4 hour cycles and upgraded my links to support that burst traffic. I'll report back with the results.


*EDIT* Actually had another colony already nearing the end of the 4h cycle so I rushed to upgrade the links and sadly no effect. The amount quoted in the survey screen is just plain wrong. I seem to recall this problem back when the PI upgrades were in testing on SISI...guess it's still a problem.

AS LordASB
Posted - 2011.01.20 23:41:00 - [77]
 

@ biirk

if the routed amount is hourly, taking my second planet test and your answer to this problem which you believe to be right. i reworked the numbers

stock which i have at present total in storage 188479.0 (volume 1884.79)

stock which your calcs should say is in my launchpad based on 4.5 hours or 4.5 routed shipments, means i should have 93852.

so even that for me does not work.

Biirk
Posted - 2011.01.21 00:02:00 - [78]
 

Well ,,. Embarassed

93852 x 2 = 187704 Reasonably close to 188479.0

For 15 minute cycles, maby the routing number is for 30 min transfers? "shrug:

Biirk
Posted - 2011.01.21 01:34:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Biirk on 21/01/2011 01:35:35
Ok. I went back and tried 15 minute cycles, and the 'routed number' seems to be for a 30 minute delivery schedule. My 30 minute cycles seemed to route in hour deliveries. as did my hour cycles.

Anyway. My point is. It doesnt look to me if the routed amount is changing. Shocked

And most of my confusion, was due to my expectation that it would change with the graph.

CaldeteisX
Caldari
Aurora Polaris
The Babylon Consortium
Posted - 2011.01.21 01:58:00 - [80]
 

I'm having similar issues to most of the posts i've read so far in this thread, my best example was an extimate hourly cycle time of 13k, upon installation this changed to just under 1k per hour. NOT just the first part of the graph of overall cycles, they were all below 1k per hour...pretty big difference between estimate and actual. Only seemed to be happening on one planet though which was very weird.

I do remember seeing, CCP Tuxford i think it was, saying that the new changes to PI should not have much of an effect on our resource gathering ability compared to post patch. Well, seems thats complete wrong though.

Syralithia
Posted - 2011.01.21 04:47:00 - [81]
 

After a bit of investigation, it looks to me like the routing amount code is indeed at fault. As for exactly how it's going wrong, the stories sounded like some random amount was being used and not updated each cycle. I gave own my planets another look and came up with a theory as to where that random routing amount was coming from.

I have two ECU on a planet, both placed over the sites of old extractors and so both in a hotspot area. They deliver roughly what the old extractors did, even though the programs say they should be delivering much more than they are. The history says the completed cycles are correct, and the average works out ( total extraction/cycles/#heads). The links can handle the capacity produced even in full flood, but the routing amount shows to be a serious chokepoint, and hasn't changed yet after 24 hours+. When I looked at the ECU positioning, it occurred to me that what if the new ECU is only using the resources directly under itself and building the route maximum based on that ( as old extractors did ) instead of what the heads are actually producing and delivering to it in their maximum cycle? If the ECU was an expanded version and using the same base code as the old extractors, maybe it 'ran home to mommy'?

This seems to be borne out by asking around to other PI users I've asked so far. How does this theory fit with your planets?

Miyah Putredas
Posted - 2011.01.21 06:16:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Miyah Putredas on 21/01/2011 06:43:38
I just started one of my planets on a 14 days cycle, as I happened to have enough pg an cpu for 8 extraction heads. The first two 4 hour cycles should have produced about 280k units each, but I currently have only 293k units in my launchpad, with my factories taking up 12k units/h. So there is something seriously wrong. This cycle should produce about 262k units, but there are only 29k units routed. This will mess up my whole program. Since I didn't get the thrust of materials at the start, my factories will run out of materials when closing the end of the program. So, for the sake of survival of our POS, please fix this. =)

Edit: I just changed the planet to 12 hour program, producing 3407 units on this first 15 minutes cycle... I have 6031 units routed to my launchpad. And the link capacity 241.24m3/h used indicates the same. So now what, I get more materials than the extractors produce? This is pretty funny. :P It would seem that, in general, programs over 24h will route less materials and below 24h will route more materials than the estimates indicate. For some weird reason. I wonder why ccp didn't notice this on their test servers.

olsted
Posted - 2011.01.21 15:09:00 - [83]
 

bump

amego
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:26:00 - [84]
 

nutshell...its borked, fix it, and an official response would help us to feel that something has been realised to be wrong. time is precious.

amego
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.21 17:29:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Miyah Putredas
I wonder why ccp didn't notice this on their test servers.


it all worked fine on the test server

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.01.21 18:39:00 - [86]
 

I'm being far less analytical about it.

1. Move the heads to maximize extraction.
2. Let the program run.
3. See what ends-up in the spaceport.

I'm currently ending-up with more P1 than I used to, so I really don't care about any of the other numbers.

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2011.01.21 20:10:00 - [87]
 

From CCP StevieSG in the Incursion 1.1.0 Issues Thread
Quote:

General Known issues:
PI extraction and routing amounts are not correct.



So they know about the issue with the routing. Probably will fix it in a patch soon. Until then I have dropped my extraction nodes to 2 day programs and spread out the nodes to minimize depletion. As long as the extraction per cycle stays at or near the routing per hour everything flows smoothly. Don't try to max out, try to average out.

Karl Reese
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.22 04:04:00 - [88]
 

For what it's worth, I remember that on at least my first program that I ran I got the correct amounts of materials in the launchpad, but I didn't notice this issue until two or three programs later.

Too lazy to offer hard data, but I'm pretty sure my first program added up.

AS LordASB
Posted - 2011.01.24 20:56:00 - [89]
 

still no news on my bug report Sad

Borgholio
Minmatar
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2011.01.25 01:20:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: AS LordASB
still no news on my bug report Sad


CCP has added the extraction amount bug to their Known Issues page. Expect it to be fixed in an upcoming patch.


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