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Kyo Haku
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.01.17 18:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kyo Haku on 17/01/2011 19:59:27
Edited by: Kyo Haku on 17/01/2011 19:56:57
Minmatar- Keep it the way it is.

Amarr- Trade one low slot for a mid.

Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a fitting bonus to standard missiles with the ROF penalty still in place.

Gallente- Give them one (maybe two) less turrent hardpoints in exchange for a 15m^3 drone bay and bandwidth.


Just a thought on how to fix our dear Dessies. I tried to keep the individual race's flavor in there, while trying to keep them mostly balanced. As much as I enjoy the Thrasher's dominance, I'd like to see the other Destroyers out there sometimes.

Thoughts? Criticisms?

Edit: also reduce sig radius. Changed caldari suggestion.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:05:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Kyo Haku
Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place.
Thoughts? Criticisms?


I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant.

I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank.

Kyo Haku
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:10:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Originally by: Kyo Haku
Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place.
Thoughts? Criticisms?


I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant.

I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank.


Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles.

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:12:00 - [4]
 

I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class.

Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB.
The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints.
The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision.

An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:22:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kyo Haku
Thoughts? Criticisms?


What are these turrents you speak of?


Barring the Coercer needing a mid slot, Dessies just need smaller sigs or a tad more HP. They're glass cannons made out of paper.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Kyo Haku
Originally by: Corporal Punishment08
Originally by: Kyo Haku
Caldari- Replace all turrent hardpoints with missile ones. Give it a range bonus to rockets, with the ROF penalty still in place.
Thoughts? Criticisms?


I like the range you can get with a Railorant. Also, it's a stepping-stone for the Hybrid weapon path of Caldari. If you take that away, it's nto a stepping stone at all, and noone will ever train for a Cormorant.

I say either give it an extra low for more damage, or increase tracking/speed. I think destroyers should be mini-battlecruisers. Cruiser sized DPS and speed with frig-sized tank.


Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles.


Rockets instead of rails on Cormorant is more like a nerf... Give it regular missile launchers with fitting and rop bonus.

Khyara
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:50:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Khyara on 17/01/2011 19:50:29
I like some of the proposed changes Im seeing however there is one thing you are missing which was pointed out above and is the critical link (and is so damn easy)

REDUCE THE FREAKING SIGNATURE RADIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (insert other angry, I cant believe CCP hasnt done that already, exclamations)

On the plus side the Noctus makes me think that CCP does realize that destroyers are useless and need to be fixed....Of course their time frame is 2020 while they add all sorts of new content to the game without fixing the old issues /rant

Lilla Kharn
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.18 04:29:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lilla Kharn on 18/01/2011 10:44:23
Lower sig, everything else is fine. Apparently we forgot the purpose of destroyers. They are not to do real damage, they are to kill frigates and smaller ships. Hence the tracking bonus...

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.18 10:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kraschyn Thek'athor
I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class.

Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB.
The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints.
The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision.

An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m


This need smaller signature and more base speed. Then adjust the amarr one to have 2 mids and you are done
Well maybe add drone or 2 to the gallente one

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:18:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Max Hardcase on 18/01/2011 19:19:01
Have you ever tried to fit a destroyer ? The fitting possibilties are atrocious in all but one of them ( Thrasher ). And thats with perfect fitting skills. Catalyst is so lacking in CPU department that it might as well not have a 2nd midslot.



Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:19:00 - [11]
 



Quote:
Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles.


er, it is? The merlin is a missileboat? The moa? The ferox, rokh...?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.18 19:44:00 - [12]
 

No to a T1 missile destroyer, 40km+ range and 120+ dps .. if you want that level of frigate counter use an Assault Caracal.

Why does the Coercer need a second mid? They are anti-frigate/drone platforms (the best ones at that too) and not solo boats .. this insane obsession with everything being able to tackle has to stop.

Drones do you no good in low EHP/High-dps fights which is what Destroyer/Frigate fights are. Stuff pops before drones even get to where they are supposed to be.

Fixes needed:
- Redesign high-slot layouts as has been done on marauders, pirate ships and navy frigs = low gun count, high bonus.
Each gun costs 1-3x the price of the hulls for Goddess sake, the single most expensive ship-class to fly in Eve.
- Reduce signature to be a lot closer to that of frigates.
- Reduce mass (increases flight performance).

No need to reinvent the wheel, they are all pretty damn nasty in the right hands and just need a little more survivability against cruisers.

Andrea Griffin
Posted - 2011.01.18 21:37:00 - [13]
 

I personally would love a missile-based Caldari destroyer. 8 missile hard points would be great; either SMLs, or rockets with a nice velocity bonus. That would rock pretty hard.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.01.18 23:06:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 18/01/2011 23:08:56
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 18/01/2011 19:19:01
Have you ever tried to fit a destroyer ? The fitting possibilties are atrocious in all but one of them ( Thrasher ). And thats with perfect fitting skills. Catalyst is so lacking in CPU department that it might as well not have a 2nd midslot.


ooooohh yeah. I forgot about that. Tried to fit a Cormy for max dps and was stopped by the CPU/PG (Can't remember which). I think I was able to get T2s on there, with tracking in the low slot, but couldn't get much of anything in the mids...so yeah probably a boost to CPU and PG, and maybe reduced sig rad, and good to go? That would be descent...

Originally by: Andrea Griffin
I personally would love a missile-based Caldari destroyer. 8 missile hard points would be great; either SMLs, or rockets with a nice velocity bonus. That would rock pretty hard.


The Cormorant doesn't even have 8 turret hardpoints as it stands now, why would they give it 8 launchers hardpoints? Also, for missiles on a destroyer, try the flycatcher ;)

I still think the Cormorant should stick with Hybrids. Like I said, it's a great stepping stone for Caldari pilots who want to train hybrids instead of missiles. Merlin>Cormorant>Moa>Ferox>ROKH as opposed to Kestrel>Caracal>Drake>Raven

Or maybe even give it 7 turret HPs and 6 launcher HPs, so you can take your pick

Edit: By the way, I realise the Hybrid training route for Caldari has 1 extra ship with the Destroyer. Since missiles are ignorantly easy to operate compared to turrets, it's a good learning step for aspiring Caldari hybrid pilots.

Max Thunderstorm
Posted - 2011.01.19 11:21:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kraschyn Thek'athor
I wouldn't reject your changes, but it won't help the Destroyer class.

Lately I got roasted in a Thrasher from three Stealth Bombers nearly instantly with Torps while using AB.
The main problem is the signature to speed to hitpoint ratio on the destroyers. With 75-90m Signature they are huge compared to their hitpoints.
The Stabber has only 105m Signature in comparision.

An decrease in Signature would help a lot. Something like 55-65m



erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.19 12:48:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Max Thunderstorm
erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster.

Your age is showing, first in that you remember what bomber were and second for seemingly forgetting that they were changed Very Happy

With painter spam a bomber group can do some damage, but without you'll only know they are firing from the exaggerated torp effect Smile

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.01.19 20:53:00 - [17]
 

Read the comment about destroyers being useless and got a very sad feeling. Why? Because this isn't a troll thread.

They arent broken or useless, sorry.

When people confuse slight IMBA with useless and broken it makes me happy that CCP rarely listens to their fanbase.

Thats what destroyed Guild wars.


Max Thunderstorm
Posted - 2011.01.20 05:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Max Thunderstorm
erm 3 stealth bombers are SUPPOSED to be able to insta pop a destro as it is frig class and they get bonuses for using BIG missles against small targets... your defense... move faster.

Your age is showing, first in that you remember what bomber were and second for seemingly forgetting that they were changed Very Happy

With painter spam a bomber group can do some damage, but without you'll only know they are firing from the exaggerated torp effect Smile


Explosion velocity bonuses help against faster moving ships, which tend to be frigates, Destroyers and Cruisers. SO yes they do get bonuses towards those types of ships because BS's and BC's tend to not move around all that fast generally, unless you're a phoon or mega.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.20 06:07:00 - [19]
 

Hey! No touching my 100km-range Cormy! Evil or Very Mad

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.01.20 06:17:00 - [20]
 

The harpy hits as far as the cormorant and with an actual damage bonus and frigate signature radius it's simply the better choice in all circumstances.

The whole destroyer lineup needs a complete redo. Make them all the same signature radii - think 50m. Take off two turrets and lose the ROF penalty. Throw those two high slots into mids or lows depending on race. Give them all an AB bonus for increased survivability. Increase the base EHP. Adjust fittings. You now have to frigates what battlecruisers are to cruisers.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2011.01.20 06:31:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Zarnak Wulf

The whole destroyer lineup needs a complete redo. Make them all the same signature radii - think 50m. Take off two turrets and lose the ROF penalty. Throw those two high slots into mids or lows depending on race. Give them all an AB bonus for increased survivability. Increase the base EHP. Adjust fittings. You now have to frigates what battlecruisers are to cruisers.


So what your saying is.. push dessies to the point that everything but tackling ceptors is removed from any kind of legitament use in every aspect of EVE for the frig lineup?

No thx. Your analogy is whacked from the prespective that BCs are combat ships, period. Cruisers can serve a much wider array of roles.. roles that they take from frigs and one-up. Your idea would turn nearly every single frig into a 'EAF'.

60-70 sig and slight boost to hp. Fixed. They aren't really that broken to begin with.. they eat frigs alive in proper hands and do it well already, their purpose. A touch extra staying/surviving power vs bigger ships is all they need.. just a touch. They are not cruisers.

If some of you having troubles with fitting issues.. eh. There is a reason why Advanced weapon upgrade exists and lvl 5 is a very coveted and solid skill to know. As well as meta items and their value.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.01.20 06:43:00 - [22]
 

So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit.

Umega
Solis Mensa
Posted - 2011.01.20 07:01:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit.


I think 50 sig for dessie is overdosing a problem with morphine for an ankle sprain. And your proposing to pile on a load more hp on top of that? And increase their speed? Right. Sorry, I can't stand proposels that try to lean and push something from Broken to Broken.

There is a reason why armor/sig tanking lokis are gaining popularity and 'street cred' in conflict. When you pile a ton of ehp on a tiny sig ship, that ehp actually becomes inflated into more 'ehp' than eft/ingame numbers will tell people.

Lowering there sig radius to 60-65 is good enough to put it at the half way mark of medium sized weaponary. There is not much need after that to then pile on near cruiser like base hit points along with that. A 62 sig thrasher with around 950/850/775 sh/ar/st base hit points would be adaquate enough to give it signficantly more staying strengthen.


Splinter 07
Posted - 2011.01.20 11:13:00 - [24]
 

The amarr desse defiantly needs an extra mid, the amarr desse can not pvp for its life as it can only fit a propulsion mod or be an extremely slow tackler, and a decrease in sig radius is needed.

Jason W0rthing
Posted - 2011.01.20 15:29:00 - [25]
 

I like your changes quite a bit actually. Again though, I would reduce their sig, significantly first. But yeah, I would totally dig an SML Cormorant with 7xstandards and a bonus to fitting them.

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.20 18:25:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Umega
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf
So they don't need a redo? They're all based on alpha strikes. One guess as to which race does that best. I didn't say it in my first post but they're also losing their optimal bonus. Short range. 1200m/s at best. We can debate the signature radius. But they need alot more survivability, not a bit.


I think 50 sig for dessie is overdosing a problem with morphine for an ankle sprain. And your proposing to pile on a load more hp on top of that? And increase their speed? Right. Sorry, I can't stand proposels that try to lean and push something from Broken to Broken.

There is a reason why armor/sig tanking lokis are gaining popularity and 'street cred' in conflict. When you pile a ton of ehp on a tiny sig ship, that ehp actually becomes inflated into more 'ehp' than eft/ingame numbers will tell people.

Lowering there sig radius to 60-65 is good enough to put it at the half way mark of medium sized weaponary. There is not much need after that to then pile on near cruiser like base hit points along with that. A 62 sig thrasher with around 950/850/775 sh/ar/st base hit points would be adaquate enough to give it signficantly more staying strengthen.



We could go the BC route and give them all the same sig....the same one as the Trasher (65).

Darth Anonymous
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.20 18:57:00 - [27]
 

Destroyers are fine.

Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle
Nostradamus Effect
Posted - 2011.01.20 19:12:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Destroyers are fine.


Sure, if you plan on shooting them instead of using them. Destroyers need a small bit of love

Frances
Posted - 2011.01.20 20:16:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden


Quote:
Never used rails, so no comment on that. I just thought it fitting that Caldari use missiles of some kind since it's their weapon system of choice. I know I'd certainly use a Cormorant is it had missiles.


er, it is? The merlin is a missileboat? The moa? The ferox, rokh...?


What do all of those ships have in common, oh yeah....they all SUCK!

Just from a flavor point of view, I'd like to see the Cormorant using missles. Barring that, fix hybrids.

Darth Anonymous
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.20 20:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Darth Anonymous
Destroyers are fine.

For the niche I use them, 4-6 pilots flying Thrashers to insta-pop frigates anywhere or suicide Hulks in high security space, they work just fine. Thrashers are the best but Catalysts and Coercers are just fine. The only tweaks I could see would be to give the Coercer an extra mid slot and fix railguns (a separate issue) so that the Cormorant is more viable.


 

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