open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: Changes to CPU requirements with Incursion 1.1.0
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 : last (10)

Author Topic

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 01:56:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Cyxopyc
What makes EVE a great online game has little to do with higher quality graphics. I love the low system requirements for this game. I believe any system requirement increases in the last few years have been for eye candy. This one is probably needed to support the new character rendering which will be interesting to me for 10 minutes and no more.

There are 1000 things in the game mechanics and the game client that need fixed or improved before making the game prettier. (like the jump bug that makes your friendly blue fleet members appear as neutrals, oops)

BTW good work on the client lately. It's a lot better since before the necessary 'align to' button was finally added. However there's still a long away to go.


Do you think 300K Accounts would be active if EVE still looked like it did? Domis looking like sandcrawlers and horrific effects? The eye candy additions are quite necessary if you want your game to be active over time.

Pentium IV is old hardware and is SSE2 Also I notice that when they finally increase system requirements. By that time the cost to get the ancient hardware is almost as much as the cheapest (And much more powerful) versions of modern hardware.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.18 01:57:00 - [152]
 

Edited by: EnderCapitalG on 18/01/2011 02:10:09
AMD Phenom II X6 @ 3.6ghz
ATI HD 4890
4GB DDR3 RAM


The tears in this thread are delicious. Brb, Crysis

e: I'm 21 with a minimum wage job and saved up a few months for it.

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:00:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Cyxopyc

What makes EVE a great online game has little to do with higher quality graphics.


Wormhole Space?

Heimer
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:11:00 - [154]
 

One of the nice things about Eve is that it runs on ancient hardware. Have a spare machine somewhere? Throw Eve on it to run missions now and then, fuel your tower, etc.

CCP is not rolling this out as a hardware requirement, they got caught from the side when one of the libraries they use dropped the support for pre-SSE2 cpus. My trusty Athlon 2800+ machine ran eve perfectly, in fact it ran multiple clients at once, nicely. Alas, it is a Socket A motherboard, with no SSE2 available.

My hope is that this gets resolved by a call to the vendor they use to simply recompile the libs with the missing support compiled back in. Why drop support for any hardware if it can be easily avoided?

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:29:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Zachstar on 18/01/2011 02:33:16
Its software PhysX you don't get them to just add support back in especially when other software house devs have begged for SSE2 support for some time.

It's over if you have that old hardware you will have to upgrade. There is no going back.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:31:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Edited by: EnderCapitalG on 18/01/2011 02:10:09
AMD Phenom II X6 @ 3.6ghz
ATI HD 4890
4GB DDR3 RAM


The tears in this thread are delicious. Brb, Crysis

e: I'm 21 with a minimum wage job and saved up a few months for it.


Same with me tho the X3 version for mine. Nice overclock! Did you have to bump the voltage up much?

That obviously is overkill for EVE but people here are acting like its a disaster if they have to upgrade ancient hardware.

Bhattran
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:38:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Mithril Ryder


This isn't a case of 2-3 years, SSE2 was introduced TEN years ago (2001), and AMD finally implemented it about 2 years later (or eight years ago). Most computers literally stop working within a time period of the 6(to be overly generous)-10 years old the computers of the whiners are, due to failed capacitors, multiple surges/spikes/blackouts and abuse/neglect. Sorry but you got your moneys worth. You can replace motherboard, cpu (dual core i3), 4 gigs of memory (ddr3), moderate graphics card (GTS250 or ATI equiv) and a stable quality PSU for about 400 bucks. That system would last 3+ years and allow for easy CPU, memory and graphics upgrades. If you want to go cheaper with a Core2 duo (save 50-100 bucks about), you can but you might have more of an issue upgrading the cpu/ram later *shrug*.

Cpu speed (as in how much the cpu can "do", not clock speed) doubles about every 18 months, so a 7+ year old cpu is about 1/32nd the speed of modern cpus. I don't think a p3 could even run flash in real time. If you are really strapped for cash you can likely find someone junking a P4 box that will take your AGP graphics card and DDR ram.

You might find you enjoy certain "recent" tech developments such as USB2.0, SATA, decent built-in sound and ethernet and PCIE. You will find that you had no idea just how *slow* your machine was at doing everything, and how much of your life it was wasting.


I wasn't talking about 2-3 year old machines but saying most upgrades probably happen on that schedule. This is about Eve working 'monday' and 'tuesday' it won't, CCP gives these people a few days 'heads up' before the change. This 10 year old technology somehow managed to not be used in EVE for EVE's entire 'lifetime' until now, that is how awesome and useful it is. Or how cutting edge Eve is, the developers are, or some other comment about not using something for nearly ten years.

If these people found a way to keep a rig running for 7+ years and not move up good for them, they made what upgrades were 'needed' when they had to(probably graphics/HD/RAM) and it doesn't affect them that they aren't running as 'fast' or 'efficient' as other machines.

Should they have been looking to upgrade, yeah unless they think things never break, but unless they had a 'plan' for that or a budget set aside they are SOL to get it setup and running 'for Eve' in the schedule given to them. A new system will run them at least several hundred dollars plus replacing any and all software they can't run on the new one anymore, activation of OS as an example.

I agree with you most 'newer' technology is made cheaply and will die out faster than their historic predecessors. It isn't necessarily a bad thing that some things were built to last over just being cheap so you'd need to replace/upgrade them every few years.

As for me I'm not living in the dark ages my system was 'above average' around 2 years ago and I only upgraded then after my pc was around 5 years old because I wanted to play 'new' games. I played the 'old' games, games I never bought but dropped to bargain prices after a year or so and they ran fine if not really well, when I started to look to newer games I upgraded. Internet, email, word processor, video/media, all that worked fine on my old box, most of that works better on this one but somethings like spreadsheets/internet don't really benefit from a new rig and for the most part that is true with most PC users. PC's aren't all used by gamers and enthusiasts anymore there are too many 'casual' users who do their taxes, internet research, etc, on them and don't need to upgrade for many years or until something breaks.


Vallek Arkonnis
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:38:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Originally by: Vallek Arkonnis

It's not about obsession over having bleeding-edge hardware, it's about having hardware that's less than 8 years old.



Processors without SSE2 support were still being made in mainstream systems until 2005, so it's not 8 years.

2005 was also the year that the Xbox360 launched, are you suggesting that it's also obsolete?


6 year old hardware? Yes. Plus the cost of the consoles are partially subsidized by game sales, not so with PC's.

The Athlon XP and P3 became obsolete the moment the Athlon64's and P4's debuted. Should everyone and their mothers have upgraded right then and there? No. But several years after the fact on a gaming machine? Yes.

There's no reason CCP should freeze their game to 2005 to appease the miniscule amount of the population that are too cheap to upgrade.

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:47:00 - [159]
 

Hey, earth to Pentium III users! Requiring that your computer be manufactured within the past decade to run EVE is not requiring you to have the "latest" hardware. Though, I admit the notice was short....Pentium III....really?? You can get a computer that will run EVE fine on Ebay for $60-70. Try going to yard sales and picking through people's bins of $5 electronics. Hell, you could probably go to a dump and root around in the trash for a 2002 pc that someone threw away.

People will whine about anything.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:48:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Originally by: Reiisha
Honestly, if someone is still playing EVE on a 7+ year old PC...

That's like complaining that Duke3D doesn't run on your ZX Spectrum.


Forgive my inner geek but, it's more like complaining that a ZX spectrum released in 1982 couldn't play the latest and greatest 3d games from the late 80 - games like Carrier Command, Starglider 2.

Oh wait both of those were in fact ported to the Spectrum.

How about Doom - oh no that was ported to the spectrum as well....

CCP in no way intended for these CPU's to be deprecated, but I'd like them to be open and either and give us a clue as to whether a client fix will be possible, if we can hold on a couple of weeks or, if this is an issue which will not be fixable.


Those ports are completely rewritten (and stripped out) versions of those games made by fans. If i make my own version of doom that runs on my calculator, that doesn't mean i'm automatically obligating the original developers to support the platform 5+ years after it's sell-by date.

That, and if you are able to play EVE, which is by no means a game you can play for an hour a week (especially if you're a newbie and trying to learn it), not to mention that you need actual money to start playing and learn the game for a few months before you even find out, much less make enough isk to pay for PLEX...

That time and money could have been used to buy a 7 year old PC which would run the current EVE perfectly. You can get those things with mcdonalds happy meals nowadays for crying out loud. Even a 3 to 4 year old budget configuration won't cost you more than a year's worth of subscription.

I'm especially looking at the people who have been playing EVE since 2003 and simply paid subscription, yet never bothered to upgrade their hardware, some of which have posted in this thread already i'd bet.

Being selfish also has something to do with it. When EVE turns 15, will people still demand that the game runs on their antiquated hardware, despite murderous competition being out there that will kill this game unless it catches up?

If you want to play Meridian 59, play Meridian 59. That should run nicely on older machines.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:48:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Zachstar
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Edited by: EnderCapitalG on 18/01/2011 02:10:09
AMD Phenom II X6 @ 3.6ghz
ATI HD 4890
4GB DDR3 RAM


The tears in this thread are delicious. Brb, Crysis

e: I'm 21 with a minimum wage job and saved up a few months for it.


Same with me tho the X3 version for mine. Nice overclock! Did you have to bump the voltage up much?

That obviously is overkill for EVE but people here are acting like its a disaster if they have to upgrade ancient hardware.


It's a Black Edition 1090T.

You can get it up to 4.2ghz easily on air without touching voltage, but YMMV

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:50:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: Mithril Ryder


This isn't a case of 2-3 years, SSE2 was introduced TEN years ago (2001), and AMD finally implemented it about 2 years later (or eight years ago). Most computers literally stop working within a time period of the 6(to be overly generous)-10 years old the computers of the whiners are, due to failed capacitors, multiple surges/spikes/blackouts and abuse/neglect. Sorry but you got your moneys worth. You can replace motherboard, cpu (dual core i3), 4 gigs of memory (ddr3), moderate graphics card (GTS250 or ATI equiv) and a stable quality PSU for about 400 bucks. That system would last 3+ years and allow for easy CPU, memory and graphics upgrades. If you want to go cheaper with a Core2 duo (save 50-100 bucks about), you can but you might have more of an issue upgrading the cpu/ram later *shrug*.

Cpu speed (as in how much the cpu can "do", not clock speed) doubles about every 18 months, so a 7+ year old cpu is about 1/32nd the speed of modern cpus. I don't think a p3 could even run flash in real time. If you are really strapped for cash you can likely find someone junking a P4 box that will take your AGP graphics card and DDR ram.

You might find you enjoy certain "recent" tech developments such as USB2.0, SATA, decent built-in sound and ethernet and PCIE. You will find that you had no idea just how *slow* your machine was at doing everything, and how much of your life it was wasting.


I wasn't talking about 2-3 year old machines but saying most upgrades probably happen on that schedule. This is about Eve working 'monday' and 'tuesday' it won't, CCP gives these people a few days 'heads up' before the change. This 10 year old technology somehow managed to not be used in EVE for EVE's entire 'lifetime' until now, that is how awesome and useful it is. Or how cutting edge Eve is, the developers are, or some other comment about not using something for nearly ten years.

If these people found a way to keep a rig running for 7+ years and not move up good for them, they made what upgrades were 'needed' when they had to(probably graphics/HD/RAM) and it doesn't affect them that they aren't running as 'fast' or 'efficient' as other machines.

Should they have been looking to upgrade, yeah unless they think things never break, but unless they had a 'plan' for that or a budget set aside they are SOL to get it setup and running 'for Eve' in the schedule given to them. A new system will run them at least several hundred dollars plus replacing any and all software they can't run on the new one anymore, activation of OS as an example.

I agree with you most 'newer' technology is made cheaply and will die out faster than their historic predecessors. It isn't necessarily a bad thing that some things were built to last over just being cheap so you'd need to replace/upgrade them every few years.

As for me I'm not living in the dark ages my system was 'above average' around 2 years ago and I only upgraded then after my pc was around 5 years old because I wanted to play 'new' games. I played the 'old' games, games I never bought but dropped to bargain prices after a year or so and they ran fine if not really well, when I started to look to newer games I upgraded. Internet, email, word processor, video/media, all that worked fine on my old box, most of that works better on this one but somethings like spreadsheets/internet don't really benefit from a new rig and for the most part that is true with most PC users. PC's aren't all used by gamers and enthusiasts anymore there are too many 'casual' users who do their taxes, internet research, etc, on them and don't need to upgrade for many years or until something breaks.




Can people like you please stop ignoring the fact that CCP was blindsided by this change to an EXTERNAL library? They had NO intentions of mandating SSE2 for this version.

They have NO choice in the matter. They would have to COMPLETELY remove that library otherwise

Bhattran
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:54:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Zachstar


Can people like you please stop ignoring the fact that CCP was blindsided by this change to an EXTERNAL library? They had NO intentions of mandating SSE2 for this version.



No.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:57:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Bhattran
Originally by: Zachstar


Can people like you please stop ignoring the fact that CCP was blindsided by this change to an EXTERNAL library? They had NO intentions of mandating SSE2 for this version.



No.


So I guess you are willing to admit that you are here simply to whine?

It is too bad that SSE2 was not required 2 years ago. It would have helped make programming easier and your whines would have been just as worthless back then.

Cyxopyc
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.01.18 03:21:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Zachstar
So I guess you are willing to admit that you are here simply to whine?

It is too bad that SSE2 was not required 2 years ago. It would have helped make programming easier and your whines would have been just as worthless back then.


Stop whining Zach.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 09:08:00 - [166]
 

I loled.

BTW It seems you could take it a step further CCP and go for SSE3. It does seem that Prescott Pentium IVs and such support that as well meaning an even lower amount of folks exist with SSE2 without SSE3.

Tenn soki
Gallente
Multiplex Gaming
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.18 09:43:00 - [167]
 

some guy in local the other day was complaining how he had a semperion 3000+ and couldn't afford 100$ to buy a used P4 offa ebay, and that he had a 1 month old kid and a wife to look after... all i could think was... how the hell do you even have time to play eve?

real life is way more important than a videogame, so if you can't afford 100$ to upgrade your machine, there's a good reason for it.

Zachstar
Posted - 2011.01.18 10:47:00 - [168]
 

He ought to have set a super long skill to train and stopped his sub I believe that still gives you the rest of the month where your skills will still train. Then he could over time get the funds to upgrade his system.

Newegg has mobo/cpu combos cheap as chips and I dont see a single store selling new PCs around here that are not SSE2 enabled.

Stratego
Ad Infernum
Posted - 2011.01.18 11:34:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Night Epoch
I have no doubt the affected players will vehemently and boisterously voice their furious anger in this thread as soon as their carrier pigeons can deliver their posts.

Edit: that is if their computers are able to launch Netscape 1.2, then subsequently load eveonline.com, register their mouse click on the news item, and load said web page before windows 3.1 encounters another catastrophic DLL error.



I don't think I should be offended in such a way just because i'm not obsessed with upgrading my PC every time new hardware hit the market.


Since when was obsession doing something once or twice every decade? Laughing

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_XP_microprocessors

Sith LordX
Posted - 2011.01.18 11:56:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Sith LordX on 18/01/2011 12:07:36
Edited by: Sith LordX on 18/01/2011 12:05:37
Edited by: Sith LordX on 18/01/2011 11:57:06
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Players still using Intel Pentium 3 or older and AMD Athlon XP or older CPUs should read this dev blog from CCP Zulu as your gameplay will be affected once EVE Online: Incursion 1.1.0 is deployed.


So there are some ppl who use antiques that should be in a museum or thrown off a bridge and really need a upgrade. Yeah that stuff is +10 years ago. As a rule if you don't upgrade every 2 years your behind tech, but +10 years.

Those computers have trouble handling anything when its running XP on it after you put a firewall and antivirus on it, it wants to role over and die when you do anything else on it. Its funny to me ppl still have computers this old, I upgrade my stuff like every year by trade mostly.

Its really not hard to have a high end system when you resell year old stuff for newer stuff. But wow, if you wait 10+ years your computer costs $5 bucks on ebay. I think it will be a wile before my Phenom II becomes antique much less having SSE support issues. XDD Still waiting for anything to stress a quad core above 10% at 4ghz besides prime95. Laughing

4Gig DDR3, HD5770 = Many eves at max settings. Hell any game so far is maxed out with that. All my DX11 games, and crysis (The siposed PC killer) My hardware laughs at it.

Jin Nongmin
Chinese ISK Farmers
Posted - 2011.01.18 12:06:00 - [171]
 

Ni Hao !!

This news make many sad !!
1000 famiry now stalve no income !!
I quit game !!
-1000 account not paying !!

Lucky numbel 8 16 29 50 63

Sith LordX
Posted - 2011.01.18 12:10:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Jin Nongmin
Ni Hao !!

This news make many sad !!
1000 famiry now stalve no income !!
I quit game !!
-1000 account not paying !!

Lucky numbel 8 16 29 50 63



4, 8, 15, 16, 23, & 42 These numbers beat all. And they have meaning. XDD

Vaneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2011.01.18 12:55:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Vaneshi SnowCrash on 18/01/2011 12:59:39
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined

2005 was also the year that the Xbox360 launched, are you suggesting that it's also obsolete?


Technically it is. The GPU has long since been surpassed, the CPU (I think it's a POWER4 deriv and IBM has released POWER6 a while back) is in the same boat. It doesn't have a lot of system RAM either.

OTOH all it has to do is run Xbox360 games, designed to run on a 360 and output to a maximum of 720p which is pretty easy in terms of grunt required these days. It's technical obsolescence doesn't detract from it being a good games machine.

Gawain Hill
Posted - 2011.01.18 13:14:00 - [174]
 

i still vote for ccp upgrading to sm3 graphics and cpu just to make the game REALLY REALLY pretty :)

Zenst
Hall Of Flame
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2011.01.18 13:20:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Vallek Arkonnis
Originally by: Illectroculus Defined
Originally by: Vallek Arkonnis

It's not about obsession over having bleeding-edge hardware, it's about having hardware that's less than 8 years old.



Processors without SSE2 support were still being made in mainstream systems until 2005, so it's not 8 years.

2005 was also the year that the Xbox360 launched, are you suggesting that it's also obsolete?


6 year old hardware? Yes. Plus the cost of the consoles are partially subsidized by game sales, not so with PC's.

The Athlon XP and P3 became obsolete the moment the Athlon64's and P4's debuted. Should everyone and their mothers have upgraded right then and there? No. But several years after the fact on a gaming machine? Yes.

There's no reason CCP should freeze their game to 2005 to appease the miniscule amount of the population that are too cheap to upgrade.


Rolling Eyes

I like how you totaly managed to ignore the fact that CCP last month in Europe release the commisioned officer edition and upon said box states the min system is a 1.5ghz cpu, NO mention of any SSE needed be it flavours 1-4 in any shape or form. Now given said box release was timed to coincide with the latest expansion I would say thjat CCP royaly fudged this up and realy should offer those effected some alternative option even if its getting some dev to compile a ruddy lib without sse support and offer that to those effected. It is a limitation but it's one iumpossed by ignorance, arragance and sheer and utter lazyness, beyond that utter ****-poor notice and we have the reciept for a SNAFU.

Yes it's old tech but thats not the point, they advertised and still today do with the box set currently available a game that has a min spec that coome this patch wont run eve at all due to this arragant oversight.

Remember if this was effecting you then would you be as fair and unjudgemental about it as I dont see anybody effected going - oh yeah my tech was old - 2 days notice - thats fair enough and funnily enough you never will.

Those that have dont apprecieate the situations of those that do not and that level of mindset is up there with racisim, dictatorships and general ****wads. WHich one are you roleplaying today!

Spamik
Posted - 2011.01.18 15:17:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Spamik on 18/01/2011 15:19:20
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Players still using Intel Pentium 3 or older and AMD Athlon XP or older CPUs should read this dev blog from CCP Zulu as your gameplay will be affected once EVE Online: Incursion 1.1.0 is deployed.


Im from poor family and I cant afford new computer Crying or Very sad. This mean I cant play EVE anymore ExclamationQuestion
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Ormus Vinge
Posted - 2011.01.18 15:17:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Ormus Vinge on 18/01/2011 15:27:56
"We urge everyone who encounters this specific error to submit a petition to our customer support department. We will have updates on the next steps we take with this issue immediately after the weekend but we wanted to get a blog up ASAP to inform everyone about the issue."


Don't forget to peti, if you have Problems.


http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=844


FriarTuk6969
Posted - 2011.01.18 16:12:00 - [178]
 

Yes, the P3 is slow, but my AMD system had no issues till now. It happily ran everything I put on it. Loads quick, plays video and DVDs perfect. My AGP Radion goes to 1440 res. I buy most new "games" for my PS3. I knew I would upgrade someday when I needed to but until now I had 0 reasons to.
Yes, CCP was blindsided but not nearly as much as us .3%rs.
The issue is the short notice. I'm not going to run out today and buy a new system. I will get one soon. To all those moaning about us complaining, I bet they would be screaming if they were the ones affected.

Adolyse
Posted - 2011.01.18 17:03:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Adolyse on 18/01/2011 17:04:03
Originally by: Ormus Vinge
Edited by: Ormus Vinge on 18/01/2011 15:27:56
"We urge everyone who encounters this specific error to submit a petition to our customer support department. We will have updates on the next steps we take with this issue immediately after the weekend but we wanted to get a blog up ASAP to inform everyone about the issue."


Don't forget to peti, if you have Problems.



http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=844



Yeah, yeah. I did it, and GM said that to play EVE I need a CPU with SSE2 technology ... So don't waste your time. Crying or Very sad

Spamik
Posted - 2011.01.18 17:16:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Spamik on 18/01/2011 17:19:38
Originally by: Adolyse
Edited by: Adolyse on 18/01/2011 17:04:03
Originally by: Ormus Vinge
Edited by: Ormus Vinge on 18/01/2011 15:27:56
"We urge everyone who encounters this specific error to submit a petition to our customer support department. We will have updates on the next steps we take with this issue immediately after the weekend but we wanted to get a blog up ASAP to inform everyone about the issue."


Don't forget to peti, if you have Problems.



http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=844



Yeah, yeah. I did it, and GM said that to play EVE I need a CPU with SSE2 technology ... So don't waste your time. Crying or Very sad

omg! I dont have moneys for better computer and I will not have! Im glad I can pay for internet! Crying or Very sad I can trash my account Crying or Very sad


Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 : last (10)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only