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Rydianna
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.16 14:51:00 - [1]
 

As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless

Caldariftw123
Posted - 2011.01.16 14:56:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless


You'd like to think that were true, wouldn't you? :D A LOT of RL money is made up, and is based on absolutely nothing.

CCP do monitor the economy and try to keep inflation at a certain level, there are many snippits of this given in things like the QEN reports and the CSM minutes for example.

egola
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.16 15:04:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless


You'd like to think that were true, wouldn't you? :D A LOT of RL money is made up, and is based on absolutely nothing.
.

QFT, the whole banking system is based on earning interests on a sum that doesn't exist

fLitSer
NEOPHYTE.
EXTERMINATUM
Posted - 2011.01.16 16:18:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless


It's the players that moderate the economy inside of EVE.
I dont see how they could moderate how much ISK is in circulation in game tbh.

egola
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.16 16:20:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: fLitSer
Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless


It's the players that moderate the economy inside of EVE.
I dont see how they could moderate how much ISK is in circulation in game tbh.



you actually can see ALOT from the quarterly reports, from the amount earned from bounties to capitals built, etc theres many ways to keep track of virtual data

Fulbert
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 17:03:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Rydianna
"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere


Since Nixon abandonned the gold standard, all major moneys haven't any legal gold counterpart. Yeah, money is generated from thin air, uh, by the confidence we have in the banking system.
Link

The situation is the same in EVE : ISK are valued because we KNOW we will always be able to buy something with them. ISK are somehow less risky than US dollars or euros...

Merovee
Amarr
Gorthaur Legion
Of Mordor
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:14:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rydianna


"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere




LOLROTFLMAO!!! QE1,QE2, QE3....

it would be nice if each empire had its own isk and that you had to trade Gallente isk for Amarr isk to buy stuff in Amarr.

Vardec Crom
Skyforger
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.01.16 21:38:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Merovee
Originally by: Rydianna


"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere




LOLROTFLMAO!!! QE1,QE2, QE3....

it would be nice if each empire had its own isk and that you had to trade Gallente isk for Amarr isk to buy stuff in Amarr.


I don't think you understand the meaning of Interstellar Kredit. Not to mention this would be a useless pita, whats the point?

Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar
Instapop Industries
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:27:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless


You'd like to think that were true, wouldn't you? :D A LOT of RL money is made up, and is based on absolutely nothing.

CCP do monitor the economy and try to keep inflation at a certain level, there are many snippits of this given in things like the QEN reports and the CSM minutes for example.


Is there any country left that still backs their currency with gold or silver?

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.01.16 23:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Worgen Fratmon
Is there any country left that still backs their currency with gold or silver?

the value of gold (and to a lesser degree - silver) is also to a large part determined by imagination and not its industrial usefulness (especially during the long time when specie money was exclusively used).

I don't really see the difference between believing some piece of paper holding value just because it is imprinted with the right words and believing some shiny metal being extra-ordinary valuable just because it's nice to look at and doesn't have to be polished all the time.

Also if I don't believe the financial authorities are willing/able to ensure their promise of monetary stability why would I believe that they will keep their promise of convertibility into specie?

after all if your money goes bad it is much more sensible to use the existing gold reserves for nation-level purchases of essential imports from other countries than to hand it out directly to the people.

TipsyMcStagger
Caldari
Spruillo WarDec Corp
Posted - 2011.01.16 23:39:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: TipsyMcStagger on 16/01/2011 23:45:19

Brannoncyll
The Rip Tide
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:42:00 - [12]
 

In fact governments manage the monetary base of the economy (total amount of liquid currency in circulation) all the time, increasing it or decreasing it depending on the current state of the economy. This is very similar to controlling the isk faucets and sinks in the game.

Kalrand
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:42:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Worgen Fratmon


Is there any country left that still backs their currency with gold or silver?


I believe Switzerland's currency it pegged to gold to a certain extent.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.01.17 08:39:00 - [14]
 

Quote:

LOLROTFLMAO!!! QE1,QE2, QE3....

it would be nice if each empire had its own isk and that you had to trade Gallente isk for Amarr isk to buy stuff in Amarr



Each major corporation got its own "isk", it's called Loyalty points. This is even stricter than having empires currencies.

These points are currency and exchanging them incurs in the same demand <-> offer pressure mechanics we see IRL.
Try posting about you got 1M <place here corp name> LP to sell and you'll see people offering from 600 to 2k per LP.


Quote:

Is there any country left that still backs their currency with gold or silver?



Gold and silver are de facto always a backup, because they are accepted by most countries.
In fact look at what happened in Tunis. The current "president" had to leave due to popular revolt. Before departing, his wife did not take away loads of their currency. She took away 45M worth of gold ingots from the state central bank.


Xia Shianggu
Posted - 2011.01.17 13:21:00 - [15]
 

ITT: OP demonstrates why the credit crunch happened.

Clap your hands, everyone, and repeat after me: "I do believe in money, I do believe in EyjoG..."

Sig Sour
Posted - 2011.01.17 15:57:00 - [16]
 

The real difference between ISK and money that comes from the World Bank is: Concord doesn't create ISK at a debt like the World Bank. Meaning if Your Bank gets $1 from the Federal Reserve (as Federal as Federal Express), Your Bank owes the Federal Reserve $1.10. Since there is only $1 in existence in order to pay that $1.10 back Your Bank needs to borrow more money (at a debt).

Next time you see a price tag with oz of gold, take a picture please!

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.01.17 16:13:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Cyaxares II on 17/01/2011 16:29:58
Originally by: Sig Sour
The real difference between ISK and money that comes from the World Bank is: Concord doesn't create ISK at a debt like the World Bank.

Shocked

I mean, I like the idea of the World Bank being some kind of international central bank managing a currency that can be used by other central banks (or even commercial banks) but in reality the only institution that would come close to this is the Bank for International Settlements which does not manage a currency.

edit: to clear up a small part of the confusion in this thread:

World Bank - main goal: reduction of poverty; tied development aid (typically long-term projects, perspective: technological/infrastructure development)
IMF - main goal: financial stability; collection/analysis of macroeconomic information, medium-term aid with perspective: monetary/fiscal reforms
Bank for International Settlements - management of currency reserves, counterparty for other central banks, forum for coordination of central bank actions

edit2: maybe someone could add how the Bilderberg group manipulates EVE ISK (leading to the hyperinflation mentioned in the other thread), just so we can say "/thread" and let it die...

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.01.17 16:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Rydianna
the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law


Shocked

What else other than supply and demand an economy should be based upon?

Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
Posted - 2011.01.17 16:31:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lederstrumpf
What else other than supply and demand an economy should be based upon?

Wishful thinking.

Cleansing Spite
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.17 17:40:00 - [20]
 

Gold is every bit as manipulable, leverageble, and create-from-thin-airable as any other currency. Because the important thing is never the supply of gold that matters - it's the use of gold, gold contracts, and gold scrip. Since neither the supply of gold nor the value of gold are constants, it's indistinguishable from fiat. The suggestion that gold has some primacy as currency is facile and usually advanced by holders of gold.

Borealis Nebulae
Posted - 2011.01.17 18:26:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Borealis Nebulae on 17/01/2011 18:26:55
Originally by: Rydianna
As long as I've been in EvE I've seen that the economy is working deeply on the old "supply and demand" law making it an ultra-capitalisitic system ; and of course it looks like real-world's economy with a little difference though.

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere (NPC bounties, missions...) and also destruction with wardeck fees, taxes and other things like that.

I was wondering what would be the income/outcome of money in EvE and if CCP keeps an eye on it to avoid too much money inside the game that would render things priceless
Couple with two 1 year old kids go into bank. They get loan for house. Bank creates the loan from nothing. The poor couple starts paying it up. Bank gets real money. So, banks are creating money from nothing all the time. Real cash reserve is like 1% (just a guess, most likely under that) of the whole amount of money in real life.

Banks do print money all the time, and the best business in the world is banking. Create bank, give loans, take risks, let the bubble burst, ask nation and tax payers to help (READ FORCE) and do it again in next 10 years.

Cleansing Spite
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.17 18:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Borealis Nebulae
Couple with two 1 year old kids go into bank. They get loan for house. Bank creates the loan from nothing. The poor couple starts paying it up. Bank gets real money. So, banks are creating money from nothing all the time. Real cash reserve is like 1% (just a guess, most likely under that) of the whole amount of money in real life.

Banks do print money all the time, and the best business in the world is banking. Create bank, give loans, take risks, let the bubble burst, ask nation and tax payers to help (READ FORCE) and do it again in next 10 years.


The fact that you don't know what a reserve ratio is (and consequently have no exposure to the nuance inherent in, for example, Tier 1 capital measurements vs. other measures of reserve adequacy) hopefully invalidates the rest of your argument to the community. It would be troubling if they agreed with you. Of course, many of your peers operate with similarly flawed understandings of banking.

Banks cannot simply "print money" - however the "money supply" is often altered by banks. That's something of a misnomer; increasing or decreasing the supply of money by using policy tools, as our central banks do, does not imply that money is being "created." It's simply being made available - made liquid - which is an important distinction from the physical creation of legal tender.

You misunderstand and oversimplify the dynamics of the monetary system in your post. Worse, you seem to have an angry, uninformed opinion. I would suggest that before becoming angry, you become educated.

Xyfu
Minmatar
Love From Above
Posted - 2011.01.17 18:37:00 - [23]
 

This thread has shaken me to my roots, what the ****, I'm scared. I don't like you people.

Someone tell me it's not as bad as it looks?

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.17 19:49:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kalrand
Originally by: Worgen Fratmon


Is there any country left that still backs their currency with gold or silver?


I believe Switzerland's currency it pegged to gold to a certain extent.


Quote:
The Swiss franc has historically been considered a safe haven currency with virtually zero inflation and a legal requirement that a minimum of 40% be backed by gold reserves.[8] However, this link to gold, which dates from the 1920s, was terminated on 1 May 2000 following a referendum.[9] By March 2005, following a gold selling program, the Swiss National Bank held 1,290 tonnes of gold in reserves which equated to 20% of its assets.[10]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Franc

Atomik Harmonik
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rydianna

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere


LOL...you haven't been watching the current US Administration printing more and more money like there's no tomorrow? Money from nothing...just wait until that huge supply starts to increase inflation. It won't just be in the US either...much of the actual US money supply is overseas...the effect will be global.

PinkFish
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Atomik Harmonik
Originally by: Rydianna

"Unlike" real world, there is production of money from nowhere


LOL...you haven't been watching the current US Administration printing more and more money like there's no tomorrow? Money from nothing...just wait until that huge supply starts to increase inflation. It won't just be in the US either...much of the actual US money supply is overseas...the effect will be global.


Any other words of advice from the right propaganda machine?

The US doesn't print suitcases of cash when the government spends money. They print money when they feel they need to adjust the money supply. When the government spends money they issue bonds, and receive money from overseas. Most of the money is then actually here, we just have tremendous liabilities to match.

If we ever start running a surplus we can do serious damage to the economies of countries that buy our bonds to fix their own currency, you know.

Khyara
Posted - 2011.01.17 20:35:00 - [27]
 

Im glad someone is countering a lot of the nonsense in this thread.

Central banks print money (please read up on the current European Economic crisis for a better understanding of why Europe is continuing to have such a challenge [lack of a central bank similar to the US that can set monetary policy and 'print' money to ease liquidity problems]). Your traditional bank that you store your money in does not.

Our entire r/l system is founded on confidence. Confidence that a particular government will function (which is why elections are so important. Would you invest/setup a business in a country that doesnt have a stable predictible government with the rule of law? I sure wouldnt.), and that its goodly little citizens will get up every day and do their work and produce goods, consume goods, and trade.

In simplistic terms, this is one of the reasons that you see shocks in the stock market when confidence wanes in the current economy/fiscal system in which the corproations/investment entities are listed/reside.

EVE also has a 'central bank'. They are called CCP. CCP uses different tools at its disposal to dynamically increase/decrease liquidity in the system (ie: bounties complexes etc) - they refer to these as ISK faucets.

The ISK faucets have an impact on inflation (think of everyone having hundreds of billions of isk. Suddenly 100bn isk wouldnt mean anything. Same with our R/l economy - again simplified.)

The one thing that I do think that CCP needs to add is the concept of Assets. Right now there is no way to tie what you own to:

-Your net worth in a meaningful way. What I mean by meaningful is that I cant ask for a loan from anyone based on the assets I own. There is no way to 'assign' a portion of an asset to someone - like a Carrier, and say that if I default on my loan from you, I owe you X BN's of isk, and that my carrier can be repo'd to pay for that.
-And/or a r/l tie that is meaningful. For instance - if you knew that X person that ripped of EVE Bank for billions of dollars and started a new account (which is what they always do), and that they were playing under another name, life would be very uncomforatable for them in EVE, and they might find it hard to find allies again in the game. This could only be solved by an e-passport of some sort so that each individual was listed in the game, even if it was first initial last name, and the number of accounts associated with that person. (this of course would cause some people to use their spouses credit card, but you get the idea)

With some of those changes, we could have a stronger, more solid meaningful economy. Dont think it will happen however unless they take EVE Gate in that direction.

Cleansing Spite
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.17 23:58:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Khyara
Central banks print money (please read up on the current European Economic crisis for a better understanding of why Europe is continuing to have such a challenge [lack of a central bank similar to the US that can set monetary policy and 'print' money to ease liquidity problems]).


This is not correct - there is a central bank in the EU, called the ECB.

The problem in Europe is that economic and political goals are not always unified in the member states. The EU is a fiscal union, but the sovereigns operate independently. Example: Greece sets its own spending / political agenda and Germany sets another.

This creates obvious conflict. Greece is a banana republic, economically, but its fiscal/economic policy must be shared with well-developed international titans like Germany. Germany has completely different needs of its central bank relative to Greece. This creates conflict that is quite difficult to resolve between member states using a monolithic currency strategy across diverse nations.

Kharylien
Gallente
Masked Rider Project
Posted - 2011.01.18 00:49:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Khyara

-Your net worth in a meaningful way. What I mean by meaningful is that I cant ask for a loan from anyone based on the assets I own. There is no way to 'assign' a portion of an asset to someone - like a Carrier, and say that if I default on my loan from you, I owe you X BN's of isk, and that my carrier can be repo'd to pay for that.
-And/or a r/l tie that is meaningful. For instance - if you knew that X person that ripped of EVE Bank for billions of dollars and started a new account (which is what they always do), and that they were playing under another name, life would be very uncomforatable for them in EVE, and they might find it hard to find allies again in the game. This could only be solved by an e-passport of some sort so that each individual was listed in the game, even if it was first initial last name, and the number of accounts associated with that person. (this of course would cause some people to use their spouses credit card, but you get the idea)

With some of those changes, we could have a stronger, more solid meaningful economy. Dont think it will happen however unless they take EVE Gate in that direction.


Wow, no.

First, assets.

You can perfectly well use assets as a collateral on a loan - it generally involves surrendering those assets for the duration, but then, let's say, as in your example, it didn't. You take a loan based on the value of your carrier.

What happens when your carrier gets blown up?

Okay, ships are easy to lose - let's say I take a loan and use my researched Dominix blueprint as collateral.

What happens if I decide to move it, and lose it in transit?

In EVE assets are pretty much always things that you can lose, in ways that generally don't apply to things that qualify as assets in the real world - particularly because I can't insure that Domi BPO.

Second, tying to real life identity.

Hell no. And I don't say that as a scammer, scammer alt, or anything like that - I say that because this is a game where people get very, very worked up about weird things. There are people in this game who I DO NOT WANT to know my real name. You say "just first initial and surname", but if you had my first initial and surname, you would find me with a single Google search, and I don't want you to do that. Some of us have unusual names.

Whereas your scammer types will get around this easily enough. Apart from anything else, if someone's made a fortune and is starting a new account for a new identity, that account is almost certainly never going to be touched by a credit card - they'll use a buddy invite then activate it with a plex.

And no, I don't think the plex system should be removed.

TipsyMcStagger
Caldari
Spruillo WarDec Corp
Posted - 2011.01.18 02:37:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II

edit2: maybe someone could add how the Bilderberg group manipulates EVE ISK (leading to the hyperinflation mentioned in the other thread), just so we can say "/thread" and let it die...



Yes, and they are also bankrolling -both- sides of the Gal/Cald conflict.

/thread


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