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Swidgen
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:19:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
That being said, when you show me that my idea is ******ed for valid reasons other than your inability to try and see what I mean, I'll happily change my perspective (and that's why I have every reason to be on the CSM :p)

Oh he sees exactly what you mean. What it means for him and the goon pubbies Very Happy gimping their supercaps. You know, if goons and even IT (former bob) are both against this idea then I am for it even more.

To take Freddie's argument to its logical conclusion, CCP might as well remove asteroids from 0.0 completely since nobody wants or needs miners there. Who would notice? Hmmmmmm..... maybe that's not such a bad idea after all if it would nerf bots and rmt isk sales.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:20:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 17/01/2011 01:20:20
Originally by: Ntrails

Shockingly BS hulls are not imported by jump freighters. >_>

Volume? Location? Nice numbers, now tell me whether I can get 30 fit zealots, 7 guardians and fittings, a damnation and a claymore.

Or 30 maelstroms, 5 scimitars, basilisks, a bunch of drakes and a vulture. What is the module cost? Are they all in one hub or dotted about?

Decent fleets are based on a cohesive doctrine, so a bunch of random BS hulls is irrelevant. From experience in both syndicate and catch before we had jump freighters stocking our staging system there was nothing like the volume on t2 fittings, on hulls and not to mention that stuff was all over the map.


If those coherent forces are worth having, people will still work for them. You're speaking from a position of being entitled to buying ships in bulk and shipping them down to wherever you want them in a matter of, at most, hours.

That's part of what's so direly screwed up with this game today. Everything is so damn abundant that there isn't much to drive conflict for haves and have-nots; the only thing to do is grind ISK and watching the skill point counter go up, as the collective gameplay has done much to erode the value of time; time to creation, time to deployment, time to resupply... all of these times are at record lows, and the effect on the game is that of stagnation and centralization.

Why not form a power block when anyone can form a coalition and bring it through allied territories into hostile space in 45 minutes or less? Why not buy everything from Jita when its no more than 25 jumps from anywhere? Why not build supercarriers when a few freighters can import the materials to where they're needed and Titan portals and Jump Bridges can make 45 jumps of 0.0 space involve a mere 15 minutes of travel time?

The eve game is ****ed through and through by this ability to get things done quickly, efficiently and cheaply; nothing is valuable, all things are available, and thus, the biggest and the best are what are what players collect and utilize. At this point, the only proper fix is a cataclysmic roundhouse kick to the Eve Economy's face.

I've been thinking about this one for some time, and I'm actually working on getting the whole fix proposal put to words. Generally speaking though, it would shatter the abundances of today and truly be worthy of the title "Total Hell Death".

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:20:00 - [183]
 

(redacting a bit your comments, word count limits).
Originally by: Gamst

Meissa I want to know your thoughts about how these logistically changes affect the causal 0.0 gamer? Some times it takes 1 to 2 hrs to form up. Boom I'm already down to an hour or no hours left to play in my free time. Then with the proposed changes another 30-60 mins of travel to roam and find targets. Right there I have just spent close to 3 and a half hours doing nothing while if there were the JB's which there are it is easy to traverse the galaxy to get better action.


The objective behind the proposed changes is to foster localized conflicts, so you wouldn't need to wait 2 hours to move halfway accross the galaxy to get a fight but instead would fight your neighbours. You're in Morsus Mihi, unless I read the map wrong, there's no hostiles less than 3 regions away from your home. So of course if you all stay friendly to one another, you won't fight. But with less chances of someone attacking you having to face MM+RZR+goons+WI+whoever's on your napfest, they'd have to face you alone, so you may actually have the fight brought to you instead of you running to it.

Originally by: Gamst

Hotdrops are great and I have been on both ends of the stick, but it's part of the game and this is where a smaller alliance can excel in driving a larger force out. Your going to nerf the only real weapon a smaller alliance would have against superior numbers which is weird. Look at Evoke when they were in the North. They were absolutely clinical at disrupting fleet movements and striking fear into more people by hotdropping and surprising the enemy. Although it is in the best interest of smaller alliances to nerf a tactic that can actually disrupt the operations of bigger, larger alliances Rolling Eyes. I don't understand what this is all about.


Indeed, and my own alliance frequently made use of triage carrier hotdrops. My opposition is not to hotdrops per se, but to hotdrops from far away. Say there's an interesting cap fight going on in Outer Ring or Syndicate. How long would it take you currently to get there? With the appropriate cynos, formup+5 minutes. Would an alliance the size of mine think about starting a cap fight against a member of the NC knowing that? Most likely not... Once again, it's about facing forces present locally without having to worry about someone half the galaxy away coming in... In essence your ability to move is a deterrent for others to have fights.

Originally by: Gamst

I look at NCdot, and CVA, Evoke as alliances that have gone out and taken sov against bigger alliances and done very well for themselves. I don't get the rationale behind a lot of these decisions other then the people making them are from low sec and high sec origins and do pirating or smaller gang warfare, but I like this game for what it is advertised as and that is a massive fleet combat MMO.

Those alliances are the exception and not the norm, but you're right that some do manage, with substantial amounts of caps and supercap and a significant amount of pilots, dedication and skill.

I'm not against the *ability* to engage in huge fights. But they've become the norm rather than a choice, a choice smaller (say, 500+) alliances don't have. Also they don't require any commitment, you move your fleet to the fight and go back easily, I'd like you to have to chose where you commit your forces, leaving your flanks open (or not) as is necessary. I don't think it fine that you can engage in warfare 3+ regions away without having to worry about what's going on in your home.

Still, all that being said your concerns are valid, I just happen to think the changes suggested will bring you more of what you actually like than less, while at the same time making it possible for more people to participate.

Zxmagus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:35:00 - [184]
 

You know i love eve ,i like meeting the devs but every time i talk to them i'm awe struck how clueless they are about 0.0 and whats going on there and they learn NOTHING from what happens out there.

Hey remember when dominion first came out and sov was stagnant for nearly a year.That was the hey day of alliance small gang pvp, it sucked the life out of eve no one even cared to even log on, empires fell apart out of boredom.

Look at what PL has done with capital moblity in the last year, punching much larger alliances in the nose and getting out and moving on when things get too hot. Nerfing carriers down constellation range is mind bogglingly dumb, remember in the old days when you'd still get the oh **** where did that cap fleet come from hot drops that you've "balanced" out of the game, you know the stuff that made 0.0 warfare and politics fun.

I hate the people that complain about "the blob" it's the stupidest argument there is.If your a raven getting ganked by 3 hacs on a gate i'm pretty sure thats getting blobed in your small alliance paradise would last about a week till 1 alliance teamed up with another to fight a third alliance and take their stuff it's human fricken nature and the numbers game is one of the most god damn important parts of the alliance meta game, using diplomacy to get more numbers creating an alliance culture that people will fight for ****s important and makes the game worth playing stop trying to kill it.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:36:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: pmchem
All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Venkul all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

Biased experts are worth what exactly?
Ask a billion flies and they will tell you that **** tastes good..

Anyway, I'm no expert but what has been spilled from the state of nullsec is the following:
1) NAP-train .. since CCP changed how sov works and the SC was boosted and the Titans nerfed there is an ongoing whine about NAP-trains.
2) Hotdrops .. since CCP changed how sov works the whine about POS bashing changed into a whine about TCU bashing
3) Projection of Power .. time and time again are there whines about people going to null and being stomped for lulz in areas no one was really using or living in

IMHO travel is to easy on ALL SCALES. Be it zero-zero with it's JB/JD/TB or be it high sec with WTZ and AFK-AP hauling of freighter-loads full of stuff between the 4-5 major hubs.

Rosalina Sarinna
Intergalactic Syndicate
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:46:00 - [186]
 

Ok, I've gone through 6 pages of mostly arguing about Industry chars not wanting anything to do with 0.0. I havn't seen a post from "one of us" yet, so I'll make my thoughts known.

I like to mine in 0.0.
Yes, mine.
And mine anything that is needed, not only what is "max ISK/hour!" (Not all miners have a min/max viewpoint, plus if you are in an intelligently led Corp, miners will be paid for their work, they don't profit from the ore, they profit from the work they put into mining it).
A couple nice ideas in the thread, one is about the type of Veldspar (and the other ores inbetween) that exists in 0.0 varying, to basically produce much more volume per m3 mined than normal Veldspar. I think this is a great idea, and surely would reduce the silly compress-veld jump-in rubbish that exists today.

Some PvP'rs can't see the point of helping anyone that isn't specifically PvP, and/or couldn't care less about indy chars (the larger portion especially in massive Corps/alliances). Some do care about them and would like to increase their Corp's ability to produce and project power. These tend to be smaller-medium Corps that need additional infrastructure (read: Indy pilots) to grow bigger.

The whole point for an Indy Char like me is to assist a corp with infrastructure. I exist, in tandem with other Indy chars, to help make the Corp members lives better (making ships and modules available to them for when they may need them), and to further the goals of the Corp (increase a Corp's status or ability to compete on a wider scale).

As for the Part3 Meeting notes:
Jumps: I can see that 'nerfing' jumping could be a good idea in some ways, although I do wonder if logistical jumping could be affected less than military (read: Jump freighter jump distance boost, military ships jump distance nerf, for example).
Region economies in 0.0: Surely the toughest thing to work with. The main problem here is that highsec allows free and near-total safety in trading and manouverability. This is how trade and manufacture can so easily lead to a strong Regional economy. The problem you have in 0.0 is that 1-4,5 systems is generally the limits a Corp may stretch out, and as such it limits free flow of trade and hence the demand goes down (which stops production for non-Corp projects).
SC nerfs: Seems a fine idea, but I would be tempted to err on the side of the suggestion someone made about SC's using only Fighter Bombers, and not being allowed Fighters or regular fighter drones. That would specialise them to some extent.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:48:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: pmchem
All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Venkul all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

Biased experts are worth what exactly?
Ask a billion flies and they will tell you that **** tastes good..


Yes and for any creature with their geneology it WOULD taste good and is in fact what they want. Just because you think something doesnt taste good doesn't mean we all shouldn't. Since we are human and not flies our dietary requirements are a tad different and our tastes also suffer many differences. But hey keep on rolling with the ignorant statements.

Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system.

I had this thought about 6 minutes ago so I will need some more thinking on it to hammer out all the kinks like the UI involved wtih the gate to avoid it being clunky as hell. Good thing I am at work for 13 more hours with nothing to do.

Zxmagus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:54:00 - [188]
 

The main problem in this game is a skill and resource gap that can't be filled with nerfs and tweaks to gameplay.I've been in a few renter corps when they first fly out to 0.0, most times their membership have zero exposure to real pvp everyone is skilled towards missions, mining/industry and now their going to find them selves up against a alliance like goonswarm federation where many of the pilots have years of 0.0 pvp experience, with high SP chars, they just can't compete on the sov level against battle hardened opponents.

Also the out of game support structures are a huge contributor to our success we have a proper forum with comms and jabber.Many corps and alliances just use corps mails to give vital info for ops and news and don't give you much idea of whats going on if your not at that second playing eve.

Gaetring Xana
Amarr
Unstable Reaction Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:58:00 - [189]
 

I kept trying to quote reply to CCP Sreegs but the interface sucks and yeah.. Anyway..

What would be helpful is for CCP to tell us how to help us help THEM. I.E. How do you detect them and what can we do to help that process? This is probably more applicable to bots but it could be for cheaters in general. If we understand CCP's process better we can probably help facilitate it. :)

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:59:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Zxmagus
The main problem in this game is a skill and resource gap that can't be filled with nerfs and tweaks to gameplay.I've been in a few renter corps when they first fly out to 0.0, most times their membership have zero exposure to real pvp everyone is skilled towards missions, mining/industry and now their going to find them selves up against a alliance like goonswarm federation where many of the pilots have years of 0.0 pvp experience, with high SP chars, they just can't compete on the sov level against battle hardened opponents.

Also the out of game support structures are a huge contributor to our success we have a proper forum with comms and jabber.Many corps and alliances just use corps mails to give vital info for ops and news and don't give you much idea of whats going on if your not at that second playing eve.



The answer isn't in tweaks, but in a revolutionary overhaul, one with enough features packed in that work in conjunction to make Apocrypha look insignificant. The solution is out there, but it is not an easy one to create, by any stretch of the imagination.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:13:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I contend that is counter productive because LP stores are already net ISK sinks.


I think perhaps there is some confusion here. My impression from the meeting is that CCP has no intention whatsoever of "nerfing" LP stores by just increasing the ISK cost. Quite the opposite, I got the impression that they want to buff the LP stores by having more items, and having more ways to buy items (ie: options for more ISK, less LP). In other words, they want to increase total transaction volume and value, which will have the side effect of sinking more ISK.

If I am mistaken, and they actually do want to simply increase ISK costs for items, then I would be strongly opposed to that -- and you would be absolutely right in your objections.

Gamst
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:14:00 - [192]
 

Thanks for answering my response. I still don't think that the NC, Dek Co, and others that are aligned with each other up north are going to turn on each other and start utter chaos just because we don't have JB's or the option to jump mass distances via bridges and what not.

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:21:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Gamst
Thanks for answering my response. I still don't think that the NC, Dek Co, and others that are aligned with each other up north are going to turn on each other and start utter chaos just because we don't have JB's or the option to jump mass distances via bridges and what not.


Perhaps not. However, you won't be able to drop a supercap fleet on enemy invaders in Vale of the Silent from the far end of Fade and Tenal within 30 minutes anymore, either.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:23:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: pmchem
All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Venkul all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

Biased experts are worth what exactly?
Ask a billion flies and they will tell you that **** tastes good..


Yes and for any creature with their geneology it WOULD taste good and is in fact what they want. Just because you think something doesnt taste good doesn't mean we all shouldn't. Since we are human and not flies our dietary requirements are a tad different and our tastes also suffer many differences. But hey keep on rolling with the ignorant statements.

To simple?
Ok, ask me something about changes to a field where I profit at the cost of others (my 'genealogy') and see where this leads for the game as a whole.

Those very same people that are now literally up in arms will tell you any other time of the day that someone else's area of the sandbox should be changed because of this and that.

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system.

I had this thought about 6 minutes ago so I will need some more thinking on it to hammer out all the kinks like the UI involved wtih the gate to avoid it being clunky as hell. Good thing I am at work for 13 more hours with nothing to do.

Even better.. let them build real Jumpgates instead.
There is a pipe that is constantly camped by hostiles? ..make your own pipe.
There is a need for a highway from one <imobile monopoly> to the other <immobile monopoly>? ..make your own defence network.
There is a fight three regions over? ..use the highways to get there asap and join the blob.
Soon you will be able to travel around in no time at all and we'll still have the problems of today that roaming gangs find no targets as everyone docks up or joins a larger blob or has a blob in range.


And I will say it a 4th time.. PCU has grown by 300% where as places of interaction have only grown by 60%. We need more space or a better utilisation of the existing space. 50 places of interaction within a room with a handful of doors connecting those rooms and which can be shut off by camps for anything other than CovOps/BRs will become very very limited sandboxes.
Increase travel-times, decrease restrictions on travel. Create more places of interaction.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:25:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Gamst
Thanks for answering my response. I still don't think that the NC, Dek Co, and others that are aligned with each other up north are going to turn on each other and start utter chaos just because we don't have JB's or the option to jump mass distances via bridges and what not.


We're not. We control all the tech, which is the only reason to go to war in this game short of human drama. You could remove bridges, remove JFs, and remove everything but t1 industrials; we'd still be blue to each other, still build supercaps, and still pretty much do what we're doing. It would suck and make the game unfun, but why would we start fighting and interrupt our joint income streams when we're sitting on the only real alliance level goldmine in Eve?

This is all aside from the fact that most of us just plain like each other and don't like Molle/no amount of gameplay mechanic gimmickry is going to make us not attack IT first. This isn't how humans work.

But if you want to try to undo the coalitions you can start by redistributing tech.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:34:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 17/01/2011 02:35:40
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Perhaps not. However, you won't be able to drop a supercap fleet on enemy invaders in Vale of the Silent from the far end of Fade and Tenal within 30 minutes anymore, either.


It takes three hours for those invaders to even SBU Vale, two days of timers to shoot a random TCU and six days of timers to take a single station system. Your unopposed surprise attack will give you somewhere around one of those days. By Day 2, bridges or no bridges, 5000 people will have moved ships over (or just JC'd over) and you're still just as screwed. If you really screw up and bring less than an overwhelming number of supers on the first day of that invasion, we will broadcast "Enemy supers about to die" on Jabber and the hordes will descend in a half hour from anywhere no matter how far we have to burn, just to get on the killmails. Jump bridges have little to do with that.

e: actually, that's for subcaps. Supercaps don't take JBs so I really have no clue what you're talking about.

I care about this terrible idea because it's dumb and makes the game less fun, not because it actually threatens our existence or anything. Nothing of the kind. We'd move to Empire staging long before we give up a single sovved system, because we make isk from the sov, even more isk from the tech and are happy to mutually defend ourselves with a billion other blues having every economic incentive to do so. Nerfing JB's is a nerf to PvP but not a nerf to big alliances, especially since that leaves us with the only JB method left in the game.

I repeat: if you want to nerf big alliances, nerf tech.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:37:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
they want to increase total transaction volume and value, which will have the side effect of sinking more ISK.


I see. As long as they're interested in the side effect rather than a direct nerf, I'll be partly mollified. I still hope to see massive well thought out LP stores for the various factions. Especially the Sansha, given that Sansha runners can't exactly participate in the new Incursion content. Evil or Very Mad

Also, I hope CCP does go ahead with the idea of reducing bounties in favor of item/tag drops.

-Liang

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:43:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system.

I had this thought about 6 minutes ago so I will need some more thinking on it to hammer out all the kinks like the UI involved wtih the gate to avoid it being clunky as hell. Good thing I am at work for 13 more hours with nothing to do.

Even better.. let them build real Jumpgates instead.
There is a pipe that is constantly camped by hostiles? ..make your own pipe.
There is a need for a highway from one <imobile monopoly> to the other <immobile monopoly>? ..make your own defence network.
There is a fight three regions over? ..use the highways to get there asap and join the blob.
Soon you will be able to travel around in no time at all and we'll still have the problems of today that roaming gangs find no targets as everyone docks up or joins a larger blob or has a blob in range.



Man look at you countering what I...oh wait no you didn't. You just built up a completely unrelated straw me and proceeded to battle him for supremacy. Your response has literally nothing to do with what I said and in fact is why I didnt suggest that.

Zxmagus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:45:00 - [199]
 

The funny thing about botting is CCP created the current botting epidemic. After the moon mining nerf/rebalancing the only place an alliance can get that kind of cash needed to run it's self is botting check some of the botting forums and you'll find major alliances renting systems to botters since it's now the best way to pay the bills

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:48:00 - [200]
 

CCP: "Let's make 0.0 much more of a pain in the ass to live in"
CCP: "We want more people to live in 0.0"


Wut

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:48:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Edited by: Fred Freedom on 17/01/2011 02:35:40
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Perhaps not. However, you won't be able to drop a supercap fleet on enemy invaders in Vale of the Silent from the far end of Fade and Tenal within 30 minutes anymore, either.


It takes three hours for those invaders to even SBU Vale, two days of timers to shoot a random TCU and six days of timers to take a single station system. Your unopposed surprise attack will give you somewhere around one of those days. By Day 2, bridges or no bridges, 5000 people will have moved ships over (or just JC'd over) and you're still just as screwed. If you really screw up and bring less than an overwhelming number of supers on the first day of that invasion, we will broadcast "Enemy supers about to die" on Jabber and the hordes will descend in a half hour from anywhere no matter how far we have to burn, just to get on the killmails. Jump bridges have little to do with that.

e: actually, that's for subcaps. Supercaps don't take JBs so I really have no clue what you're talking about.

I care about this terrible idea because it's dumb and makes the game less fun, not because it actually threatens our existence or anything. Nothing of the kind. We'd move to Empire staging long before we give up a single sovved system, because we make isk from the sov, even more isk from the tech and are happy to mutually defend ourselves with a billion other blues having every economic incentive to do so. Nerfing JB's is a nerf to PvP but not a nerf to big alliances, especially since that leaves us with the only JB method left in the game.

I repeat: if you want to nerf big alliances, nerf tech.


Believe me, I want to nerf Tech. I also want to throw most of the mechanics of the current sov system out the window and find something descriptive that actually works.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.17 02:59:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion

Believe me, I want to nerf Tech. I also want to throw most of the mechanics of the current sov system out the window and find something descriptive that actually works.


I would wholly support that and would also support death2supercaps, but our CSM apparently wants to make me stare at the loading screen longer, instead. So here we are.

Falin Whalen
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 03:46:00 - [203]
 

Let me get something straight. The CSM is willing to trust CCP to make drastic changes to nulsec logistics, just like they trusted CCP to change sov warfare to a more fluid and free-flowing sov system with the Dominion expansion?

mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.17 03:49:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Originally by: Evelgrivion

Believe me, I want to nerf Tech. I also want to throw most of the mechanics of the current sov system out the window and find something descriptive that actually works.


I would wholly support that and would also support death2supercaps, but our CSM apparently wants to make me stare at the loading screen longer, instead. So here we are.


Troll only wants to cry. Waah, I have to make a decision between affording supercaps or support fleet. Waah, thinking of a positive alternative suggestion hurts both my brain cells. Waah, my fingers hurt from typing my troll-spam.

Typing a wall o' text to say how everybody is wrong but you, no matter what they say and how they say it is NOT a contribution to a discussion. So, mister magic fingers mc'trolley, how would you make 0.0 better? Besides declaring you lord emperor of pixelz?

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.01.17 03:51:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Tres Farmer
6 months to balance something like an attribute of a ship?!

[WTB] faster toolset for balancing.

Balancing needs to become way faster.. a turn around time of less than 1 month should be strived for.


Rolling Eyes 3 minutes to change the stat of a ship. 1 month on Sisi to get basic replies. Another 3 minutes to change the stats again. Another month of testing on Sisi. scrap the change as the tests show it is will make the ship overpowered/underpovered thanks to interaction with change X to modules or the use of module Y, something that the Dev hadn't considered.

Repeat for a few times till CCP reach something resembling the balance they want.

Do that for several ships as people will cry if only one is changed. Test the changes against each other. See if one of the ships become uber.

Yes, 6 months for a patch with the rebalancing of several ships is a reasonable timeframe.




THANK YOU! JUST WHAT I WAS THINKING. CCP - NO OFFENSE - BUT YOU ARE REALLY OVERTHINKING IT.

ALSO - IN CAPS AGAIN TO SUPPORT WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS SAYING - CCP: THIS IS A GAME - NOT LIFE. IT DOESN'T PUT FOOD ON MY TABLE (I DON'T BOT). I WANT TO PLAY CASUALLY. QUIT MAKING LOGISITCS AND SYSTEM JUMPS, ETC ETC SO TIME CONSUMING. FIX MINING SO MORE PEOPLE WANT TO DO IT. FIX ISK SINKS/FAUCETS SO THAT YOU AREN'T PUT IN A POSITION TO MAKE IT HARDER ON PLAYERS. I.E. AS MUCH AS I LOVE IT - PLEX SHOULD BE WORTH MORE ISK SO YOU QUIT B!TCHING ABOUT YOUR BOTTOM LINE, TAKING IT OUT ON PLAYERS, AND FORCING US TO SPEND HOURS IN GAME TO HAVE ONE FRICKEN LITTLE FIGHT.

MAKE SENSE? EVEMAIL ME FOR DETAILS IF YOU ARE STILL STUCK. I WILL BE HAPPY TO ELABORATE BECAUSE I AM NOT SURE ANYONE IN THE CSM OR CCP IS GETTING IT. THANK YOU and GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.17 03:51:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 17/01/2011 03:53:27
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Fred Freedom
Originally by: Evelgrivion

Believe me, I want to nerf Tech. I also want to throw most of the mechanics of the current sov system out the window and find something descriptive that actually works.


I would wholly support that and would also support death2supercaps, but our CSM apparently wants to make me stare at the loading screen longer, instead. So here we are.


Troll only wants to cry. Waah, I have to make a decision between affording supercaps or support fleet. Waah, thinking of a positive alternative suggestion hurts both my brain cells. Waah, my fingers hurt from typing my troll-spam.

Typing a wall o' text to say how everybody is wrong but you, no matter what they say and how they say it is NOT a contribution to a discussion. So, mister magic fingers mc'trolley, how would you make 0.0 better? Besides declaring you lord emperor of pixelz?


Perhaps you should look up the definition of a "troll" and/or read the multiple posts where I want supercaps nerfed and/or want tech nerfed (including the one you quoted) before commenting further.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:08:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Have you considered that the decline in PvP may be caused, not by a lack of desire to PvP, but a lack of desire to engage in PvP that is not fun? That perhaps, a nullsec PvP environment where an opponent can push the supercap "I Win" button -- where you cannot really assess your chances of winning because you can go from having an advantage to being overwhelmingly outgunned in the blink of an eye -- does not encourage participation? Where metagaming (logoffski, and loading up local to deter an assault, for example) is more important than gaming? And where the really strategically important battles become painful lagfests?


I want to say this is mostly right but to be honest there's been a ton of PvP (in fact I hear you're engaging in some right now~). The reason overall PvP is down is that it's centered around the handful of regions where Molle has ****ed off enough people who now want his head. All other areas are full of nothing but bots, not worth shooting and definitely not worth alarmclocking 3 times for. This, not mobility, is the problem. You tell me why I should give a damn about sov in Anonymous Scalding Pass/Period Basis/Esoteria System that has no valuable moons, the exact same anomalies as the one next to it, and the same guy's tengu warping between belts 23/7, and I'll tell you how to drive PvP up. If you can make PvP more fun than 3 straight alarmclock ops shooting structures, I'll even throw in the secret of how to make sure less than 1000 people show up to shoot them (spread out your objectives to more than one goddamn system at a time).

Or you can remove jump bridges so we can use titans while whoever's in Period Basis right now massively logs off and is never seen again, whichever.


FRED,

I really like your posts. My .02 isk - Make PVP MORE ENJOYABLE by MAKING SHIPS and GOOD (Keyword T2 being good) Modules maybe EASIER??? to replace or Jump clones/Implants easier to replace. Maybe INSURANCE for CLONES? Something!! People can then be reckless and maybe HAVE FUN in PVP because the risk of losing is less? All this can be fixed by making learning implants cheaper (not specialized implants) and making mining more worthwhile/interactive. FIX MINING IMHO. Your thoughts?

Hud Bannon
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:22:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 16/01/2011 19:33:17
Originally by: Fred Freedom
Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 19:14:00
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
And no, mining trit doesn't have to be equal to carrier assisted sanctums, not everyone has the ability to fly carriers, or 2 accounts, and there's lots of people who *like* mining. And then there's the conversion rate that may/should change and the non-zero cost of moving stuff about.


Actually, yes it does, because pure miners have never wanted anything to do with 0.0 and everyone here has at least some PvP ship they can fly, meaning they all run sanctums. But that's irrelevant. The choice isn't even between sanctums and arkonor, although that doesn't help; it's between mining ark and mining veld. If you mine veld when you can mine ark, export to Jita and import trit for 1/10 of the cost, you are a complete moron, and 0.0 doesn't really have that many of those. If you think that getting tritanium in 0.0 is viable you have no business being on the CSM.



let's imagine for a moment you can't move any mineral from empire to 0.0 (or that reprocessing items into minerals ceases to be possible). What would happen to price of minerals in 0.0? Arkonor will be worthless to mine and Veld would be gold. From then on a miner would be ******ed to mine ABC. Meanwhile the situation is the exact opposite in highsec.

If you make it possible to haul stuff from empire to 0.0 but with losing 2% of their value per gate jump, the respective values change a tiny bit and you obtain a gradient of value where trit is valuable in 0.0 but worthless in highsec and vice versa for ark.

Changing transportation costs and nerfing reprocessing rates is exactly that (just a "lite" version of that). Local supply and demand will dictate the value of things more than empire supply and demand. Obviously nothing as dramatic as the "2% per jump" exemple, but still... Plus the migration of miners from highsec to 0.0 would decrease the highsec supply.

Either way, if I can run 20 moon mining POSes solo with 1 jump freighter and 2 accounts today, something's too easy wouldn't you think?

Originally by: Fred Freedom

I'd like someone else from the CSM to come in and tell me you're not all that dumb. You want us to not just mine, but mine veldspar in 0.0 in sufficient quantities to support 0.0 production for many thousands of people? What?


No I don't want *you* to mine, just saying a healthier ecosystem can be found than what exists today. And if you can't understand that with increased transportation costs local supply dictate prices more than what the demand is half the universe away, maybe you should think some more...

That being said, when you show me that my idea is ******ed for valid reasons other than your inability to try and see what I mean, I'll happily change my perspective (and that's why I have every reason to be on the CSM :p)


I can see your point Meissa and agree there is some logic there in regards to minerals. By now you probably notices I feel the same way. But taking it a bit further. More interaction/variable results to stop botting but making mining quicker/better for HUMAN players.

Also - if you do change logistics - consider this with T2 Moon goo - Maybe CCP needs to take a long hard look at Moon distribution as you guys have alluded too. What about introducing mineable comets for moon goo in empire to help defray the costs to empire? as getting those back to empire will be taking a hit. Same for 0.0?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:27:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Here's an idea, don't remove jump bridges, don't even remove the pos module, just change how they work. Check it out
Once anchored a jump bridge pos module allows a corp to link the system to two systems with the same range restrictions as presently. The corporation management page has you set a password that is then used to activate the gates in the system. Upon activation you would either be given a selection box(I personally would want something more elegant) or right click jump to on the gate like your capacitor on a jump drive capable ship.

I would allow the password to not be limited to standings. People inside the corp or alliance would not need the password. This would allow both hostiles and friendlies to abuse your jump bridge network and move through your space quickly. Sure you can get from germinate to fountain in 15 minutes, but so can they. This would also force people to go through gates. Logistics would remain something of a **** but overall I think it would be a better system. .

Even better.. let them build real Jumpgates instead.
There is a pipe that is constantly camped by hostiles? ..make your own pipe.
There is a need for a highway from one <imobile monopoly> to the other <immobile monopoly>? ..make your own defence network.
There is a fight three regions over? ..use the highways to get there asap and join the blob.
Soon you will be able to travel around in no time at all and we'll still have the problems of today that roaming gangs find no targets as everyone docks up or joins a larger blob or has a blob in range.


Man look at you countering what I...oh wait no you didn't. You just built up a completely unrelated straw me and proceeded to battle him for supremacy. Your response has literally nothing to do with what I said and in fact is why I didnt suggest that.

I hate gates. I hate it that I can travel as fast as I can.

What you suggest is not only an alliance JB network, no, it's a JB network mk2, which in essence are player constructed gates with password protection for the people in-the-know.

You probably didn't grasp the concept of CCP getting an idea that what they did with jumpranges and deployment times was the wrong way to go and is diametrically opposed to what they wanted to achieve >> more people being able to survive in zero-zero and not more people being able to be stomped into the ground by some bored SC pilots 40 jumps away.

Reading the Evelopedia article under this light it's practically hilarious:
Originally by: Evelopedia on Jumbridges
A jump bridge is a static emplacement that allows a ship to move great distances, without the assistance of anyone else online. These are commonly put into networks, allowing a ship to move up to their 0.0 home quickly.

Jump bridges are set up by player alliances at their POS' in their sovereign space. The placing of these bridges link distant systems in a similar fashion to a stargate. One of the main differences is that the jump bridge uses liquid ozone to fuel the bridge for the jump.

By placing these structures, alliances create a highway system that allows very fast travel through 0.0 space. They are a time saver of immense proportions, and allow for the players to have more access to their home systems deep in 0.0

Jump bridges also facilitate the quick response ability to alliances when attacked. traditionally a system may be 30 jumps from your home system. If you were attacked there, it would take you 30 jumps X (X number of minutes per jump) to get to your destination. With jump bridges, a system 30 jumps away may only be 3 using the jump bridge technology.

Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.01.17 04:37:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Rattus Norwegius
If we really want to make 0.0 industrially self sufficient, all CCP need to do is to make stargates between empire (low and high sec) and 0.0 only accept pods, shuttles and noobships. This would prevent any trade except of blueprints and skillbooks.

This would effectively split EVE into two areas, a PvE area, Empire, where people would be happily mining, and a PvP area, 0.0, where people would be uhm.. unhappily mining. Yay! Progress!Very Happy


As much as this idea scares me - I think it might be crazy enough to fricken work.


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