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pmchem
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:35:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: pmchem on 16/01/2011 20:35:13
Did I miss the part where lowsec is some kind of asteroid mining heaven because of the lack of jump bridges? Everyone that lives in lowsec produces all their battleships locally with locally sourced minerals, right?

All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Vuk all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.

Tamyris
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:36:00 - [152]
 

This topic makes it painfully obvious that both CCP and the CSM are playing a different game and/or think they're experts in areas that they're not involved in. All this talk about removing JBs, forcing convoys, and trying to break up giant alliances into smaller ones to promote regional warfare is misguided at best, delusional at worst.

Just as an example, this statement:
Quote:
"Greyscale feels that reduction in mobility will decrease need for big coalitions, because huge coalition blobs won't be able to move as fast; result should be smaller local wars."

reeks of ignorance. Reduction in mobility decreasing the need for big coalitions? The only thing the removal of Jump Bridges will accomplish a shift from JBs to Titans w/ JPGs and/or multiple JCs + caches of ships in target areas.

Quote:
From that R&K CSM person:
The needs of smaller alliances are also lesser than that of bigger alliances. But either way, I didn't suggest "get rid of the jump bridges and do nothing else". The point of the discussion about force projection and mobility was to say I felt it is too easy to move stuff around, it is too easy to move far to pwn someone else. People are less willing to engage roaming groups now than they were 2-3 years ago.

Also, smaller alliances don't have an extensive jump bridge network. When I said "get rid of them", I also said "but it has to be accompanied by other changes so that it doesn't become artificially cumbersome to move stuff about", we reiterated the need for POS fuel compression, for instance, and improved industrial facilities in 0.0, maybe even overhaul POS industry capabilities. It's not just a matter of "make everything more difficult", it's finding alternatives to the current situation to accomplish the goals.


You don't seem to understand how CCP works. The "do nothing else" part doesn't matter to them, they'll just remove JBs and that's that. I think that none of your suggestions would help alleviate the problems created by removing JBs, as they all depend on having the resources to start production on hand.

Quote:
The R&K CSM person again
CCP is perfectly aware that the minerals are ferried from highsec to 0.0 instead of being mined in 0.0 (except drone regions). You say the 0.0 miner profession "can't exist", I don't see why not


When is the last time you mined in 0.0? When is the last time you did it for profit, vs ratting, running missions, etc?

Quote:
R&K person again
God no, I don't mine... I used to when I started playing but haven't done that in a long while. I produce stuff and PvP mostly these days if you want to know.


Ahhh, that makes sense. How do you get the materials for what you produce?

Quote:
R&K person *again*
And, once more, I never claimed anything about "removing transportation", neither did I says "instantly", neither did I say it was the thing that, on its own, solved everything.


erm, what? See your post here, third paragraph, second sentence:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1448834&page=4#97

Or even better, look a few quotes up in this post, it's bolded for you.

Sorry dude, but this shows a distressing lack of knowledge in an area you're trying to change for the worse. Step down before you f*ck the game up for everyone else.

Pomplamuse
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:40:00 - [153]
 


This is the point and the problem. YOU don't want to mine, fine. There are a lot of people who play the game that would LIKE to mine in 0.0. there is no reason for them to do so because of Logistics. More importantly 0.0 holding entities don't WANT miners, they want more PvP pilots because miners are useless for PvP.
On top of all of that the miners can't mine because they are always being told to stop mining and go PvP.

Change the dynamic so that imported goods are more expensive then locally produced goods and you will see more mining/industry locally. As was stated above 0.0 needs a healthier ecosystem.

I am happy, and surprised that the CSM all agreed that JBs need to go. I am even more pleased to see that CCP agrees.


obviously you decided to ignore the later part of my post. the real reason why nobody mines in 0.0 is that the risk doesn't meet the reward. your living a fantasy if you think 0.0 entities are going to recruit high sec miners or let them mine in their systems without being harassed/slaughtered.

on another note, if mining was actually fun then 70% of the minerals in eve wouldn't be coming from bots

why not focus on making the game more fun instead of trying to migrate populations that will never move. miners in high sec are gonna stay in high sec because its safe and you don't have roaming gangs swinging through every 20 minutes.

also, have you ever managed a 0.0 logistics operation?
i am going to assume not.
even with jump bridges it is so tedious that it definitely feels more like work than a game.
take out the jump bridges without replacing them with something equally useful and you are just burning out all the people who are actually willing to spend time moving minerals and such around.

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:45:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Jita 4EVAR
However, CCP would need to get far more serious on the topic of botters in nullsec.

Thoughts?


Wait what? You think the nullsec botters are the issue with minerals not the hundreds of empire macro miners?

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:46:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Jita 4EVAR
My brilliant solution to the import veld, export ark problem is quite simple.

We currently have 100%, 105%, and 110% variants on ore. Perhaps it would be better if lower sec status meant greater ore compactness? Say, Veldspar in nullsec is 3-4x the density of veld in highsec.

On-site production would become far more viable (especially if this was coupled with boosts to POS and outpost functionality). However, CCP would need to get far more serious on the topic of botters in nullsec.

Thoughts?


"0.0 ultra-veld" addresses one small part of the argument. There are about a dozen reasons why this balkanization proposal is bad, but yes, as far as industry in 0.0 is concerned, this would make self-sustaining local production at least theoretically possible. Coupled with like 50 other massive changes to the game that CCP would never make, sure, it'd work.

Gravecall
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:47:00 - [156]
 

Finally having a look at hybrids? Yay!
Considering how a Raven's performance compares to a Rokh's something definitely needs to be done for hybrids/the ships that are supposed to fit them, either that or swap the Raven and the Rokh's positions in the order of Caldari battleships along with the skill and material requirements.

Amarr 4EVAR
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:50:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Amarr 4EVAR on 16/01/2011 21:00:18
Edited by: Amarr 4EVAR on 16/01/2011 20:55:01
Originally by: Ntrails
Originally by: Jita 4EVAR
However, CCP would need to get far more serious on the topic of botters in nullsec.

Thoughts?


Wait what? You think the nullsec botters are the issue with minerals not the hundreds of empire macro miners?


IF CCP made the necessary changes to make nullsec mining profitable and the production self-supporting, are you honestly going to tell me that nullsec ratter bots won't get turned into nullsec miner bots?

edit: TBH I would be in favor of completely scrapping the current belts and replacing them with one giant belt going all the way around the solar system. You want good ore? scan for it.

edit2: oh dear, I seem to have gone entirely off-topic. ADHD must be kicking in. General sentiment remains the same though. Nullsec needs an overhaul to make smaller amounts of space more profitable, fully self-sustaining, and harder to move through at high speed(only moderately though).

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 21:05:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Amarr 4EVAR
IF CCP made the necessary changes to make nullsec mining profitable and the production self-supporting, are you honestly going to tell me that nullsec ratter bots won't get turned into nullsec miner bots?


Nope, they won't. Why? You need alot more infrastructure to mining than ratting. Your average Drake-bot isn't going to suddenly sprout up a POS, CHA and the logistics to support fueling it and moving the ore.

Gamst
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.16 21:17:00 - [159]
 

All I read from the proposed changes was... It's not fair that this game is a sandbox and we need to make gameplay changes in order for it to suit my needs and wants. Bottom line is the JB thing is well out of order and I think it is because CCP don't want to hassle with finding a real solution for lag for large scale fleet battles.

If SC's get nerfed watch the people who have them and their alts unsub this game.
0.0 is not suppose to be low sec or high sec warfare. It is meant to be about large empires going at it.. Or at least that is what I thought was being advertised. Also if you want 0.0 without the JB's there is always NPC 0.0 for you.

If this game gets any longer then it already is.... Have a good time I'm going to Vegas.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 21:17:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/01/2011 21:22:24
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

let's imagine for a moment you can't move any mineral from empire to 0.0 (or that reprocessing items into minerals ceases to be possible). What would happen to price of minerals in 0.0? Arkonor will be worthless to mine and Veld would be gold. From then on a miner would be ******ed to mine ABC. Meanwhile the situation is the exact opposite in highsec.

If you make it possible to haul stuff from empire to 0.0 but with losing 2% of their value per gate jump, the respective values change a tiny bit and you obtain a gradient of value where trit is valuable in 0.0 but worthless in highsec and vice versa for ark.

Changing transportation costs and nerfing reprocessing rates is exactly that (just a "lite" version of that). Local supply and demand will dictate the value of things more than empire supply and demand. Obviously nothing as dramatic as the "2% per jump" exemple, but still... Plus the migration of miners from highsec to 0.0 would decrease the highsec supply.

Either way, if I can run 20 moon mining POSes solo with 1 jump freighter and 2 accounts today, something's too easy wouldn't you think?

[...]

No I don't want *you* to mine, just saying a healthier ecosystem can be found than what exists today. And if you can't understand that with increased transportation costs local supply dictate prices more than what the demand is half the universe away, maybe you should think some more...

That being said, when you show me that my idea is ******ed for valid reasons other than your inability to try and see what I mean, I'll happily change my perspective (and that's why I have every reason to be on the CSM :p)


And what will do that incapability to move minerals to the value of the moon minerals?

We will have locally build T2 ships with locally produced datacores and BPCs as you will be incapable to move datacores in significantly large quantities to 0.0 for the same reasons that make moving large volumes of minerals?

Moon minerals would be sold at high prices in high sec with minimal demand as most people would pilot cheaper T3 ships.

Moon incomes would drop, too costly to move large quantityes and the outlet price would be too high for general use. The demand will be covered almost totally by low sec moon mining.

The whole system will move from a grand, interlocked universal market to local commerce barely above the bartering level. I will give you PI stuff in exchange for moon good that I will use to build the T2 ships that will exchange for the capital ships. Or more probably the corp/alliance will dole out individual quotes of PI stuff and minerals to produce in exchange for staying in the corp.

BTW if it is "******ed" to mine ABC in 0.0 mining them will simply disappear as they aren't present in low or high sec. For them to be mined they should be worth at least as much as veldspater locally. That will give a very high high sec price. But at that point mining in low sec and shallow WH will be more efficient, why less jumps to do.

This kind of change will maybe "revitalize" low sec at the expense of high sec and 0.0, but the almost certain loss of player there will not be compensated by the gain in low sec.

The whole idea as presented seem someone looking a clock, noticing that it lose a minute every day and hitting it with an hammer to repair it.

Really then CSM and CCP can't seen the aftereffects?

And "No I don't want *you* to mine" Rolling Eyes

Yes, you want me, and Freed and X and Y to mine. You want the "you" that aren't "Me(issa)" to spend the playing time mining veldspater in 0.0 for the "greater good".


Another "little" point: make local mining in 0.0 the way to go and every PvPers with a second account will buy a macro miner bot that watch local and rat spawning. Those will be the "0.0 miners".

They don't complain, never get distracted and fail to notice the new non blue in local, don't have problems with low returns.

Wonnerfull



Kallehd
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:05:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Ironically, your logistics are easier than ours. Yours are a pain to set up and move, but most of what you need can be produced on site and you only have dozens of members, maybe a few hundred at most, to worry about. You base out of a handful of POS and produce only t3 materials and POS fuel, plus the odd capital ship. This isn't a dig on you - I've actually done WH ops and I know it's tough to do - but you operate on a different scale.

Also, there's the part where you don't build or fly supers (which, admittedly, makes for a better game, just not the one I'm playing.)


Not really easier in any way but actually harder if you look at it right. You may say that it's on a different scale and I'll give you that point, but it's harder to move 3 or 4 orcas through 2 wspace systems, probably colapsing the wh along the way, making your highsec exit change every 2 orcas that go through, on systems that are packed with hostiles, then maybe a couple of lowsec jumps to meet up with the highsec logistics alts. So in no way is it easier. In fact, low end ores actually are more important as it's a nightmare to import the amounts needed of low end minerals needed for the building of a mere carrier. Pack that with ZERO ways to get any income besides hauling everything out and selling it in empire, meaning again, logistics to get your income out of the wh.

And most importantly, we get no easy intel in the form of a local channel but have all your drawbacks (organized hostiles + bubbles) besides the fear of a mommy hotdrop perhaps Laughing

On the "miners will still only mine ark" part, like I said, you may make a better profit actually selling that ark, but once you run out of trit and you can't get nearly enough through imports due to crap/harder logistics, alliances will have to adapt and actually start trying to mine it out locally, thus, creating value, not in isk, but added intrinsic value from the need of raw material for production of whatever ship is in the flavor of the month. So forget the isk/h thing as that will go straight out the window when all the money in the world doesn't get you the trit you need to keep your space! Isk becomes ... secondary! (imagine that! Laughing)


Originally by: pmchem
All these anti-JB arguments are bad, and when you have IT Alliance, goonwaffe, and Vuk all agreeing on the issue perhaps you should take note of what large 0.0 entities actually think since they're the experts on getting stuff done in nullsec.


Not saying that you're 100% wrong or that the suggested solution as proposed is the right answer, but you can't actually expect any large bloc to like any change that will make it harder to support their current play style! It's like asking "Do you want to earn less while having 4x more work to earn it?" The answer will always be resistance to that change, but that doesn't mean change doesn't need to occur!

When I'm bored of Wspace, I'll go to nullsec as it's wspace on easy mode! Think about that! ugh

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:32:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 22:34:55
Originally by: Kallehd
Not really easier in any way but actually harder if you look at it right. You may say that it's on a different scale and I'll give you that point, but it's harder to move 3 or 4 orcas through 2 wspace systems, probably colapsing the wh along the way, making your highsec exit change every 2 orcas that go through, on systems that are packed with hostiles, then maybe a couple of lowsec jumps to meet up with the highsec logistics alts. So in no way is it easier. In fact, low end ores actually are more important as it's a nightmare to import the amounts needed of low end minerals needed for the building of a mere carrier. Pack that with ZERO ways to get any income besides hauling everything out and selling it in empire, meaning again, logistics to get your income out of the wh.


I'm not denying that it's different. You need two massive bursts of effort (setting up/moving out) and some constant PI going on, plus occasional importing/exporting and building by ships not really suited for it. But you have to build one carrier at a time, fuel 1 to a few POS at a time and your subcap losses are replaced the old fashioned way, by members buying in Empire.

Active 0.0 alliances have to replace hundreds of subcaps a week, have to fuel hundreds of POS and build supers/titans, and have to stront time and haul moon minerals constantly, all on different timers. The amount of logistics needed is really staggering. 10b trit a month is a mid range estimate; Goonswarm does many times that number.

Quote:
On the "miners will still only mine ark" part, like I said, you may make a better profit actually selling that ark, but once you run out of trit and you can't get nearly enough through imports due to crap/harder logistics, alliances will have to adapt and actually start trying to mine it out locally, thus, creating value, not in isk, but added intrinsic value from the need of raw material for production of whatever ship is in the flavor of the month. So forget the isk/h thing as that will go straight out the window when all the money in the world doesn't get you the trit you need to keep your space! Isk becomes ... secondary! (imagine that! Laughing)


Yeah, no. If the pricing disparity becomes anywhere near that bad we'll buy carriers/freighters/other large ships and jump them in to melt down. It will never get that far, though, because we (by which I mean all of 0.0) will simply move our staging points as close to Empire as we can or just move staging to Empire period.

I mean, really, you just suggested we spend a few thousand man hours a month mining veldspar to 'fix' logistics. Yep, that's definitely my idea of a 0.0 experience I can get behind: corp-organized/mandated mining of essentially worthless minerals "so we can keep our space". Wow. How about we just stage in Empire in the first place?

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.16 22:54:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Kallehd

When I'm bored of Wspace, I'll go to nullsec as it's wspace on easy mode! Think about that! ugh


Sure, all you have to do is create an alliance. Because corps cannot hold space. That requires rather more than the 18-40 guys who can run a top wormhole. Oh, and some isk. I'm sure you're rich so that's fine.

Now pick somewhere to live. Where will you stage? NPC space is really your only option. They've nerfed jump bridges, and jump freighters, so how will you get your ships there? And the POS fuels, and the other assorted gubbinz you would need?

Are you really going to take a freighter by gates? This would be dumb, even with a mighty escort, which you don't have because you are small and have only your member generated wealth. You don't have a titan to bridge it. Perhaps they will leave rorquals un-nerfed for the hauling, and you can use carriers to slowly build a stock of BS hulls?

Now, after all the hours spent accumulating this ****, someone notices you drop SBUs. Perhaps you were very very cautious and simply decided to go for an otherwise unclaimed constellation.

But you have no blues, and everyone in 0.0 loves to stamp on the face of the guy with a smaller fleet. So your sov structures are shot, your towers reinforced, and you lose most of your fleet because you are new at this. How do you pay for this? Your members cannot rat safely, you have no upgraded system in which to safely work together.

Now you need to replace everything that is lost, but the logistics to move a ton more stuff is mind boggling, there is no NPC space market hub because no one can be bothered to produce - they are currently mostly stocked by jews with Jump freighters and huge mark ups.

The only way into 0.0 is by joining an established alliance, or as pets and renters. Changing jump bridges will not alter this, it will make it harder.

Wormholes are far far easier than 0.0 space, your entrances and exits are simple, 2-3 jumps. Sure there is no local, but there is sod all traffic. You don't need huge fleets, caps and the like just to get started.

Running a successful group Nullsec is hard. Logistically, it is already a nightmare task restricted to a bunch of heros who manage to be both willing and trustworthy.

If CCP break easy transport to the only way of forcing a fight (sov/moon warfare) - you'll have a bunch of bored blue powerblocs

Rattus Norwegius
Posted - 2011.01.16 23:17:00 - [164]
 

If we really want to make 0.0 industrially self sufficient, all CCP need to do is to make stargates between empire (low and high sec) and 0.0 only accept pods, shuttles and noobships. This would prevent any trade except of blueprints and skillbooks.

This would effectively split EVE into two areas, a PvE area, Empire, where people would be happily mining, and a PvP area, 0.0, where people would be uhm.. unhappily mining. Yay! Progress!Very Happy

Vekyn
Posted - 2011.01.16 23:36:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Active 0.0 alliances have to replace hundreds of subcaps a week, have to fuel hundreds of POS and build supers/titans... 10b trit a month is a mid range estimate; Goonswarm does many times that number.


Stealth 'everything that's wrong with this game' post.

Originally by: Kallehd
Not saying that you're 100% wrong or that the suggested solution as proposed is the right answer, but you can't actually expect any large bloc to like any change that will make it harder to support their current play style! It's like asking "Do you want to earn less while having 4x more work to earn it?" The answer will always be resistance to that change, but that doesn't mean change doesn't need to occur!


This. HTFU huge alliances. If miners, industrialists etc are worth protecting, they'll be protected. Well guarded miners in 0.0 (and production facilities, etc) would create opportunities for small gang 'hit & run' tactics to disrupt production lines. Larger alliances would require specialised logistics (and probably a full revamp of 0.0 production alongside to balance out the changes), industrials would find a place outside hisec and a generally healthier, more localised 0.0 would emerge.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:02:00 - [166]
 

To Fred Freedom and Venkul Mul

You may think the current situation is fine, I don't. 0.0 is powerbloc only, supercap online, there's no industry, no small gang objectives, roams end up not finding anyone most of the time, any small fight will quickly escalate into large hotdrops and people are loath to engage. This situation is in no small part due to movement being so easy, wealth being uniformly [un]distributed, there being nothing to fight over.

At this stage, no single measure fix the situation. When I suggested to get rid of JB, it's not the only thing that was suggested. If you chose to bash that one idea without taking anything else that was said into consideration, then it's your own fault for not seeing the point.
Most of your arguments are of the form "but that would require people to change behaviour. Right now there's no industry in 0.0, so there can't be in the future either". Well, all things being equal, you'd be right. But the number of suggestions made is so all things do not end up being equal.

So you say "but CCP will only do one thing and not the rest of them, so you'll break one thing for no good result anyway". Obviously should CCP decide to do that, I wouldn't be supportive of the changes at all.

You say there are no miners who'd like to mine in 0.0. That's the case currently, give them incentive to do that and protection, and they'll come.
You say PvPers don't want to protect miners. That's your issue, if you can't arrange to assist industrialist to help you, that's your problems, other groups who do will be more successful.

Originally by: Fred

This doesn't mean trit prices will be really high in 0.0, because at the absolute worst 0.0 alliances are literally going to build carriers in lowsec for the sole purpose of flying them to their destination and reprocessing them.


It will mean both. Prices of trit will go up in 0.0, and ships that can be easily jumped (caps) may be produced more in lowsec or the borders of 0.0. Sure. God forbid there be regions that have advantage (such as proximity to highsec) over others... Once again you also ignore the fact that reprocessing doesn't have to remain a 100% conversion operation.

Originally by: Venkul

So essentially you will import miners in a alliance to do grunt work, don't thrust them with anything, insult them because they aren't fighting the PvP battles (not that you want them doing that anyway), pretend them to sell minerals at lower than market cost and they will be happy because "they love mining"?


No, I said you could, not that I would. If you chose to treat miners like slaves, your call. There's no shortage of people who are willing to mine (yes, real people) for profit. Pay them, protect them, they'll come. See comment above.

I understand you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, but the status quo sucks in my opinion. If you don't believe the status quo to be desirable, just post your ideas on how to fix things in the Assembly Halls and no matter how different they may seem from mine, if they're sensible, I'll support them. How does that sound?



Comstr
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:08:00 - [167]
 

Remove all Capital, Supercapital, Jump Bridge, Jump Freighter, Freighters and add a max range of jump clone usage.

All of CCP's problems go away.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:13:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Tamyris
This topic makes it painfully obvious that both CCP and the CSM are playing a different game and/or think they're experts in areas that they're not involved in. All this talk about removing JBs, forcing convoys, and trying to break up giant alliances into smaller ones to promote regional warfare is misguided at best, delusional at worst.

Just as an example, this statement:
Quote:
"Greyscale feels that reduction in mobility will decrease need for big coalitions, because huge coalition blobs won't be able to move as fast; result should be smaller local wars."

reeks of ignorance. Reduction in mobility decreasing the need for big coalitions? The only thing the removal of Jump Bridges will accomplish a shift from JBs to Titans w/ JPGs and/or multiple JCs + caches of ships in target areas.


Titan bridging would have to change as well.

Originally by: Tamyris

You don't seem to understand how CCP works. The "do nothing else" part doesn't matter to them, they'll just remove JBs and that's that. I think that none of your suggestions would help alleviate the problems created by removing JBs, as they all depend on having the resources to start production on hand.


No single measure will fix the current situation. None of the measures *alone* will fix the situation, the bunch of them will improve it however. So it's a bundle of measures or nothing as far as I'm concerned. Now, since you don't think CCP will do any of that, what is your magic "one change" that will fix everything?

Originally by: Tamyris

Quote:
The R&K CSM person again
CCP is perfectly aware that the minerals are ferried from highsec to 0.0 instead of being mined in 0.0 (except drone regions). You say the 0.0 miner profession "can't exist", I don't see why not

When is the last time you mined in 0.0? When is the last time you did it for profit, vs ratting, running missions, etc?


The fact that I personally mine or don't is irrelevant to the fact that there exists people who are willing to mine, and I'm not talking about the current situation, I'm talking about a changed situation.

Originally by: Tamyris

Quote:
R&K person *again*
And, once more, I never claimed anything about "removing transportation", neither did I says "instantly", neither did I say it was the thing that, on its own, solved everything.

erm, what? See your post here, third paragraph, second sentence:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1448834&page=4#97
Or even better, look a few quotes up in this post, it's bolded for you.


The sentence is:
Originally by: "Meissa Anunthiel"
When I said "get rid of them", I also said "but it has to be accompanied by other changes so that it doesn't become artificially cumbersome to move stuff about", we reiterated the need for POS fuel compression, for instance, and improved industrial facilities in 0.0, maybe even overhaul POS industry capabilities.

Please point where I said to get rid of transportation, I don't advocate changing freighters or removing blockade runners. Some forms of easy transportation need to be changed, not all of them.

May I suggest you learn to read?

Also, you might want to read the rest of that sentence while you're at it, specifically the part bolded for you.

Originally by: Tamyris

Sorry dude, but this shows a distressing lack of knowledge in an area you're trying to change for the worse. Step down before you f*ck the game up for everyone else.

The only people it's going to **** with is people who enjoy moving easily halfway accross the galaxy to bash someone a tenth their size out of boredom. In other words, the people who are happy with the situation as it is...

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:29:00 - [169]
 

Ok, so in what world does any of the jump drive/bridge changes make roams find anyone to kill?

A roaming gang appears, and ratters, miners and all the rest dock up or safe up.

If someone tries to take space you will jump 40 jumps and kill them if they are smaller than you. This will not change. You can guarantee a fight. It will be more boring, and more annoying, but it'll be a chance to actually do something.




Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:31:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Ntrails
If you remove jump bridges, jump freighters and nerf cap manoeuvrability then 0.0 becomes 4 great swathes of blue.

No one can attack, because replacing ships is a nightmare, getting anywhere is a nightmare, and let's face it defenders already have a ton of advantages. The main one of these will be access to a local market.


There was no sea of blue before the proliferation of SCs and JBs .. just saying.

Pomplamuse
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:33:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Pomplamuse on 17/01/2011 00:35:49
seriously.

i am not even gonna quote you, cause all that crap you said is really mentally deficient(heh, cant say ******ed).

why do you insist on making the game as least fun as possible.
logistics is the non-fun part of eve. making it any harder than it is already is plain stupid.

miners are from high sec are never gonna be in 0.0 how you want them to be. if anything its just gonna mean bots everywhere cause mining really really (no, really) sucks to do for 8 hours a day. nobody is gonna guard miners, just like they don't guard ratters.

regardless how much ccp or csm would like smaller power blocs, it just plain is not going to happen. no matter how hard it is to travel 0.0 is gonna be the same people hating each other.

edit: ccp doesn't like terms referring to mentally handicapped people

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:41:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 17/01/2011 00:47:02
6 pages

Bridges -----> bridges------->bridges----> ho!! bridges!!! finaly the f...g bridges...

humm what about those months i spent training for wallente ships and hybrids?
Can i expect to get full sp reimboursement ?? no?

I'm so happy that bridges problem is finaly resolved, i mean, this will defenetivly change my entire eve life and my overpowerd blasters.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:48:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Pomplamuse
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 17/01/2011 00:35:49
seriously.

i am not even gonna quote you, cause all that crap you said is really mentally deficient(heh, cant say ******ed).

why do you insist on making the game as least fun as possible.
logistics is the non-fun part of eve. making it any harder than it is already is plain stupid.

miners are from high sec are never gonna be in 0.0 how you want them to be. if anything its just gonna mean bots everywhere cause mining really really (no, really) sucks to do for 8 hours a day. nobody is gonna guard miners, just like they don't guard ratters.

regardless how much ccp or csm would like smaller power blocs, it just plain is not going to happen. no matter how hard it is to travel 0.0 is gonna be the same people hating each other.

edit: ccp doesn't like terms referring to mentally handicapped people


I don't think logistics are the most fun part of the game either (well, except the planning of it), some people like it though (ask freighter services). I don't like mining either, but there's no shortage of people mining 8+ hours a day (yes, real people).
Yes, PvPers don't like guarding miners, but then again PvPers have never really needed the resources miners brought (because getting those same things from highsec is so easy), so it's always been a one-sided relationship.

It doesn't matter if the same people hate the one another. The point is that any conflict in the current situation by default spans half of the galaxy at least, because it's so easy to move there are blobs and the only way to fight the blob is the blob. Make it harder for people to blob and you can suddenly fight smaller conflicts, because by the time people can arrive, the fight will be over.
Unless of course they focus their strength in one area ahead of time, but that leaves another area they control open for attack. Right now there's no choice to be made on what front to fight, allocate resources and whatnot...

Gamst
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:50:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Gamst on 17/01/2011 00:50:52
Meissa I want to know your thoughts about how these logistically changes affect the causal 0.0 gamer? My situation is I only get about 2-3 hrs every so often to go out and kill and I still have to make isk on top of that to continue with the PVP. I don't have a legion of alts to satisfy the thirst for isk nor do I have the time to sit and mine or rat for 8 hrs to build the proper capital. Right now for me this is how a fleet goes some times. Some times it takes 1 to 2 hrs to form up. Boom I'm already down to an hour or no hours left to play in my free time. Then with the proposed changes another 30-60 mins of travel to roam and find targets. Right there I have just spent close to 3 and a half hours doing nothing while if there were the JB's which there are it is easy to traverse the galaxy to get better action.

Hotdrops are great and I have been on both ends of the stick, but it's part of the game and this is where a smaller alliance can excel in driving a larger force out. Your going to nerf the only real weapon a smaller alliance would have against superior numbers which is weird. Look at Evoke when they were in the North. They were absolutely clinical at disrupting fleet movements and striking fear into more people by hotdropping and surprising the enemy. Although it is in the best interest of smaller alliances to nerf a tactic that can actually disrupt the operations of bigger, larger alliances Rolling Eyes. I don't understand what this is all about.

In the last year there was some much action and changes in terms of sov that I don't understand why people use the words stagnant and smaller alliances can't make it. Also when we say small what kind of number is that? 1k, 1500, 500? I look at NCdot, and CVA, Evoke as alliances that have gone out and taken sov against bigger alliances and done very well for themselves. I don't get the rationale behind a lot of these decisions other then the people making them are from low sec and high sec origins and do pirating or smaller gang warfare, but I like this game for what it is advertised as and that is a massive fleet combat MMO. What these proposed changes are saying to me is we don't want that kind of large scale warfare and it totally goes against what I thought this game was and how it is advertised.

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:52:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Make it harder for people to blob and you can suddenly fight smaller conflicts, because by the time people can arrive, the fight will be over.


You're serious? What objective can you achieve without 24+ hours advance notice?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:53:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 17/01/2011 00:59:48
Originally by: CSM Minutes
However, CCP agrees that LP store needs a look; they want to make it a bigger ISK sink.


I contend that is counter productive because LP stores are already net ISK sinks. This is plainly visible when missioning for pirate agents, because most of your missions are against empire factions and there are no bounties to speak of. As an example, my first time missioning for the Sansha required several hundred million in raw ISK, on top of the meager bounties/mission reward/mission bonus, to convert my LP into items. I encourage CCP and the CSM to remember that converting items from LP stores is 100% pure market PVP.

While I'm on the topic of running pirate missions: can I kindly suggest making the pirate LP stores look less like someone forgot to finish implementing them? Flesh them out a bit more, and make sure that the mission running experience as a whole sits in a reasonable place with respect to risk vs reward. I estimate that I don't make a whole lot more in Stain than I do in Gallente high sec - primarily because of the bounty issue mentioned above.

My suggestion is to take a good, hard, long look at this statement (also from the CSM Minutes):
Originally by: CSM Minutes
But again, there needs to be a faucet/sink balance; one possibility is moving towards item rewards things that can be traded for ISK rather than ISK itself.


I would argue that this is The Correct Answer. We do not need to "nerf" LP stores by making them require more raw ISK - instead we can accomplish a similar effect through a graded removal of bounties in favor of item rewards. Of course, there is already a mechanic in place which could serve as a drop in substitute for bounties - tags and the Player/NPC tag markets. This would immediately effect a large reduction in the direct inflow of ISK into the economy by requiring people to stop and loot their wrecks if they wanted the "raw ISK" that comes from bounties. From there, I would say that creating new uses for tags and lowering NPC buy orders would create the ISK sink you're searching for - tag markets and taxation.

I just want to be clear that there's more PVP in this game than blowing ships up. Please don't nerf PVP in any of its forms. :)

-Liang

Ed: I almost forgot to mention it - putting faction ships on the market was a huge epic win. Putting more things on the market would be even better. :)

Swidgen
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:55:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
An ME1 supercarrier BPC requires 1 billion (1,000,000,000) units of tritanium, 100m units of mex and 335K units of megacyte. That is *one* ship. Now pretend you're a midsized alliance holding one region that needs to produce 5-6 supercaps, 1-2 titans and 100 BS a month. Do you begin to understand what the problem is?

Yes, the problem is those supercaps that now dominate the game to the exclusion of everything else. They're the equivalent of an "I WIN" button, and less of them would make for a better game.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.17 00:58:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Ntrails
*snip*
Now you need to replace everything that is lost, but the logistics to move a ton more stuff is mind boggling, there is no NPC space market hub because no one can be bothered to produce - they are currently mostly stocked by jews with Jump freighters and huge mark ups.
*snip*


*cough*
s snapshot of todays sell prices for 2 regions
              Heimatar   Syndicate
Apocalypse 80M 60M
Armageddon 52M 42M
Raven 79M 67M
Scorpion 58M 50M
Megathron 76M 65M
...

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:08:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Swidgen
Originally by: Fred Freedom
An ME1 supercarrier BPC requires 1 billion (1,000,000,000) units of tritanium, 100m units of mex and 335K units of megacyte. That is *one* ship. Now pretend you're a midsized alliance holding one region that needs to produce 5-6 supercaps, 1-2 titans and 100 BS a month. Do you begin to understand what the problem is?

Yes, the problem is those supercaps that now dominate the game to the exclusion of everything else. They're the equivalent of an "I WIN" button, and less of them would make for a better game.


If CCP wanted to delete them all from the game I would completely agree with you.

If you want to make it harder to build new ones while keeping the old ones intact, you're dumb.

Note that this proposed change will accomplish neither of these two things. We will still build just as many supers, bridges or no bridges, JFs or no JFs. We will just be far more annoyed at doing so and staging in Torrinos if we have to.

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.17 01:11:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Ntrails
*snip*
Now you need to replace everything that is lost, but the logistics to move a ton more stuff is mind boggling, there is no NPC space market hub because no one can be bothered to produce - they are currently mostly stocked by jews with Jump freighters and huge mark ups.
*snip*


*cough*
s snapshot of todays sell prices for 2 regions
              Heimatar   Syndicate
Apocalypse 80M 60M
Armageddon 52M 42M
Raven 79M 67M
Scorpion 58M 50M
Megathron 76M 65M
...



Shockingly BS hulls are not imported by jump freighters. >_>

Volume? Location? Nice numbers, now tell me whether I can get 30 fit zealots, 7 guardians and fittings, a damnation and a claymore.

Or 30 maelstroms, 5 scimitars, basilisks, a bunch of drakes and a vulture. What is the module cost? Are they all in one hub or dotted about?

Decent fleets are based on a cohesive doctrine, so a bunch of random BS hulls is irrelevant. From experience in both syndicate and catch before we had jump freighters stocking our staging system there was nothing like the volume on t2 fittings, on hulls and not to mention that stuff was all over the map.




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