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Kallehd
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.16 18:40:00 - [121]
 

Well, quite honestly, I believe most of these changes will be game changers. While I agree that deep space will need to get it's output buffed to be viable, removing the logistics from Empire dependency will create a local demand, thus making a local market for a given good. Atm, veldspar isn't viable as there's NO DEMAND!

It's a basic market law. Supply and demand and at the moment you'd have any local miner competing with a empire miner which only has access to low end ore, making his supply far cheaper than you can ever make.

Removing that logistics ease, will create added value to veldspar in deep nullsec, thus, value for that ore in that region will be alot different than in empire.


In the end, this equation would balance itself out, as lowered empire demand due to local null production would lower low end minerals even lower in empire, making it unprofitable to mine it there, making real miners and indies want to move to lowsec or nullsec (mostly the latter).


In the end, it would be hell to produce anything on a large scale and I sincerely find it disturbing that anyone expects to be able to build 7 SCs, 1 or 2 Titans and 100Bs without having thousands of people working hard for a whole month! The scale of things got out of proportion in my eyes and maybe because I live in wspace I have a notion on "real" hardcore logistics where you don't have an option to go the "easy way" aka empire hauled crap!

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 18:49:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 18:50:06
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

But to answer your comment, you also assume using reprocessing stuff back into its original minerals will remain the 100% conversion rate operation it is today and that moving stuff about has the next to zero cost. Those would increase the shipping cost and make it all the more viable to produce locally.
But your point about stockpiles is well taken, I'll make sure to enquire with CCP's statistics dpt and check what they have to say on that question.

Now, the overwhelming majority of PvPers don't want anything to do with mining, I know I don't, but there's hordes of people in highsec who enjoy it and would ask for nothing better than make more ISK doing it in 0.0, if they were given protection.


Those people don't even go into wormholes to do it, and mining is actually viable there (mind you, there are at least enough to produce Jita ABCs.) They won't go into 0.0, period. But assuming they somehow would, mining tritanium in 0.0 would have to be equal to carrier-assisted sanctums to support 0.0 production (duh!) Since it's maybe a tenth of that right now, feel free to think about what would happen if you actually succeeded in driving the price of trit to 20 isk a unit.

Quote:
The game as it is today doesn't function all that well. blobfests and napfests discouraging small/medium alliances, small gang PvP hard to find, small cap fights not happening due to escalations that systematically happen, boring sov fights (who likes to sit for hours bashing structures), next to nothing to fight over. I say improving the situation is feasable.
And, once more, I never claimed anything about "removing transportation", neither did I says "instantly", neither did I say it was the thing that, on its own, solved everything.

I however welcome the discussion... As I said before it's only the first step in a series going towards trying to change the current status quo.


Then start by nerfing tech and introducing incentives *for* small gang warfare instead of nerfing transportation.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 18:58:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 18:59:30
Originally by: Kallehd
It's a basic market law. Supply and demand and at the moment you'd have any local miner competing with a empire miner which only has access to low end ore, making his supply far cheaper than you can ever make.

Removing that logistics ease, will create added value to veldspar in deep nullsec, thus, value for that ore in that region will be alot different than in empire.


Yes, it's basic supply and demand.

1)I can mine 0.0 veldspar, or I can mine 0.0 arkonor
2)Given I will always have the option of exporting the ark/importing the finished product from Empire instead if that's what it takes, prices between Empire and 0.0 must be relatively close together
3)Since the price of ark is so high and not getting any lower, the only solution that encourages 0.0 production must be to raise the price of veldspar to something in the same ballpark
4)???
5)the economy's dead, Jim

Quote:
In the end, it would be hell to produce anything on a large scale and I sincerely find it disturbing that anyone expects to be able to build 7 SCs, 1 or 2 Titans and 100Bs without having thousands of people working hard for a whole month! The scale of things got out of proportion in my eyes and maybe because I live in wspace I have a notion on "real" hardcore logistics where you don't have an option to go the "easy way" aka empire hauled crap!


If you don't expect this to happen and want production nerfed down to whatever you think is 'reasonable', the answer is a full server wipe because we will simply take our already existing supers/titans and take over the game.

On top of that, I can make 100 BS in Jita right now with roughly an hour of clicking. If it 'should' take thousands of people a month of work to build anywhere near that amount in 0.0, fine; half the game will stage out of Torrinos, the other half will stage out of Keberz, and 0.0 can have a bot in every sanctum and another bot in every drone belt.

Neither of those things is what you probably want out of Eve Online.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:01:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom
Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 18:50:06
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

But to answer your comment, you also assume using reprocessing stuff back into its original minerals will remain the 100% conversion rate operation it is today and that moving stuff about has the next to zero cost. Those would increase the shipping cost and make it all the more viable to produce locally.
But your point about stockpiles is well taken, I'll make sure to enquire with CCP's statistics dpt and check what they have to say on that question.

Now, the overwhelming majority of PvPers don't want anything to do with mining, I know I don't, but there's hordes of people in highsec who enjoy it and would ask for nothing better than make more ISK doing it in 0.0, if they were given protection.


Those people don't even go into wormholes to do it, and mining is actually viable there (mind you, there are at least enough to produce Jita ABCs.) They won't go into 0.0, period. But assuming they somehow would, mining tritanium in 0.0 would have to be equal to carrier-assisted sanctums to support 0.0 production (duh!) Since it's maybe a tenth of that right now, feel free to think about what would happen if you actually succeeded in driving the price of trit to 20 isk a unit.


Some do (more than you think, travel through WHs and you'll see). And no, mining trit doesn't have to be equal to carrier assisted sanctums, not everyone has the ability to fly carriers, or 2 accounts, and there's lots of people who *like* mining. And then there's the conversion rate that may/should change and the non-zero cost of moving stuff about.

There's barely any gradient in the value of stuff in the current universe. You say "but it'd be bad if the stuff that's far from empire cost more than the stuff at Jita", I fail to see how that would be the case, I actually view that as a good thing.

Quote:
The game as it is today doesn't function all that well. blobfests and napfests discouraging small/medium alliances, small gang PvP hard to find, small cap fights not happening due to escalations that systematically happen, boring sov fights (who likes to sit for hours bashing structures), next to nothing to fight over. I say improving the situation is feasable.
And, once more, I never claimed anything about "removing transportation", neither did I says "instantly", neither did I say it was the thing that, on its own, solved everything.

I however welcome the discussion... As I said before it's only the first step in a series going towards trying to change the current status quo.


Then start by nerfing tech and introducing incentives *for* small gang warfare instead of nerfing transportation.

Both have been talked about. Not nerfing tech per se, but changing the current moongoo situation, and if you read the minutes, you'll notice the question of introducing incentives for small gang warfare, both in terms of disruptive sov contestation and not have been discussed.

It doesn't have to be one thing or the other, it can and should be more than one thing.

Andrevv
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:02:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Andrevv on 16/01/2011 19:03:02
I'm not disregarding the context of changes that would would accompany removing JBs. I just look at the minutes and see a unanimous vote for removing them from everyone involved as unsettling, because I can't see it being a positive change without a huge amount of changes to accompany it.

As for letting high secs mine in ones system. That's still a very unlikely scenario right now. You either take them into your corp/alliance and then don't trust them because you never talk to them, or you let them rent and and again don't trust them. It's just making things easier for spies of other alliances.

@Kallehd
We have 6k people in our alliance. 100BS is a drop in the bucket.

[EDIT] Posted while shooting station services for 2 hours Ugh. [/EDIT]

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:14:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 19:14:00
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
And no, mining trit doesn't have to be equal to carrier assisted sanctums, not everyone has the ability to fly carriers, or 2 accounts, and there's lots of people who *like* mining. And then there's the conversion rate that may/should change and the non-zero cost of moving stuff about.


Actually, yes it does, because pure miners have never wanted anything to do with 0.0 and everyone here has at least some PvP ship they can fly, meaning they all run sanctums. But that's irrelevant. The choice isn't even between sanctums and arkonor, although that doesn't help; it's between mining ark and mining veld. If you mine veld when you can mine ark, export to Jita and import trit for 1/10 of the cost, you are a complete moron, and 0.0 doesn't really have that many of those. If you think that getting tritanium in 0.0 is viable you have no business being on the CSM.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:15:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Andrevv
Edited by: Andrevv on 16/01/2011 19:03:02
I'm not disregarding the context of changes that would would accompany removing JBs. I just look at the minutes and see a unanimous vote for removing them from everyone involved as unsettling, because I can't see it being a positive change without a huge amount of changes to accompany it.


To be fair, we also voiced Vuk's absent objection and what I thought would be his most prevalent reasons for objecting to the removal. And I agree that it would have to be accompanied with other changes because on its own it wouldn't accomplish anything other than making it arbitrarily more cumbersome to do things that one would still be able to do.

Originally by: Andrevv

As for letting high secs mine in ones system. That's still a very unlikely scenario right now. You either take them into your corp/alliance and then don't trust them because you never talk to them, or you let them rent and and again don't trust them. It's just making things easier for spies of other alliances.
[EDIT] Posted while shooting station services for 2 hours Ugh. [/EDIT]

That's because miners right now are not part of alliances, they don't contribute much and they're not generally wanted either. Why would you, you don't really need them...
The relationship would change if they were actually providing a service you need. But you wouldn't really need to trust them with stuff pertaining to PvP either. In my experience, tell miners they can join and you'll be providing them with security in a series of system and they'll come. Usually what happened is that the PvPers don't give a rat's arse about miners because they provided not much of value, so they wouldn't defend them, so miners would get ganked and leave...

As far as your edit is concerned, I believe Greyscale referred to shooting structures as "one of the most ******ed mechanics". Don't know how to change that however.

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:26:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 19:26:55
Seriously, I'm on my third iteration of this post because I can't believe anyone would be stupid enough to suggest local 0.0 trit production as a serious option.

I'd like someone else from the CSM to come in and tell me you're not all that dumb. You want us to not just mine, but mine veldspar in 0.0 in sufficient quantities to support 0.0 production for many thousands of people? What?

I'm sorry but get the hell off the CSM.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:29:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 16/01/2011 19:33:17
Originally by: Fred Freedom
Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 19:14:00
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
And no, mining trit doesn't have to be equal to carrier assisted sanctums, not everyone has the ability to fly carriers, or 2 accounts, and there's lots of people who *like* mining. And then there's the conversion rate that may/should change and the non-zero cost of moving stuff about.


Actually, yes it does, because pure miners have never wanted anything to do with 0.0 and everyone here has at least some PvP ship they can fly, meaning they all run sanctums. But that's irrelevant. The choice isn't even between sanctums and arkonor, although that doesn't help; it's between mining ark and mining veld. If you mine veld when you can mine ark, export to Jita and import trit for 1/10 of the cost, you are a complete moron, and 0.0 doesn't really have that many of those. If you think that getting tritanium in 0.0 is viable you have no business being on the CSM.



let's imagine for a moment you can't move any mineral from empire to 0.0 (or that reprocessing items into minerals ceases to be possible). What would happen to price of minerals in 0.0? Arkonor will be worthless to mine and Veld would be gold. From then on a miner would be ******ed to mine ABC. Meanwhile the situation is the exact opposite in highsec.

If you make it possible to haul stuff from empire to 0.0 but with losing 2% of their value per gate jump, the respective values change a tiny bit and you obtain a gradient of value where trit is valuable in 0.0 but worthless in highsec and vice versa for ark.

Changing transportation costs and nerfing reprocessing rates is exactly that (just a "lite" version of that). Local supply and demand will dictate the value of things more than empire supply and demand. Obviously nothing as dramatic as the "2% per jump" exemple, but still... Plus the migration of miners from highsec to 0.0 would decrease the highsec supply.

Either way, if I can run 20 moon mining POSes solo with 1 jump freighter and 2 accounts today, something's too easy wouldn't you think?

Originally by: Fred Freedom

I'd like someone else from the CSM to come in and tell me you're not all that dumb. You want us to not just mine, but mine veldspar in 0.0 in sufficient quantities to support 0.0 production for many thousands of people? What?


No I don't want *you* to mine, just saying a healthier ecosystem can be found than what exists today. And if you can't understand that with increased transportation costs local supply dictate prices more than what the demand is half the universe away, maybe you should think some more...

That being said, when you show me that my idea is ******ed for valid reasons other than your inability to try and see what I mean, I'll happily change my perspective (and that's why I have every reason to be on the CSM :p)

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:30:00 - [130]
 

Problem: every system in 0.0 is almost exactly the same
Problem: there's only one kind of thing worth fighting for, concentrated in one area of the game
Problem: station shooting is a nightmare that requires a massive fleet

*proposes nerfing travel*
*suggests that balkanizing the game will make an individual system more valuable to its owners*
*suggests that 0.0 industry can exist on its own*
*suggests that producing 10b units of tritanium a month is no big thang*

*is on the CSM*

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:32:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
let's imagine for a moment you can't move any mineral from empire to 0.0 (or that reprocessing items into minerals ceases to be possible). What would happen to price of minerals in 0.0? Arkonor will be worthless to mine and Veld would be gold. From then on a miner would be ******ed to mine ABC. Meanwhile the situation is the exact opposite in highsec.


*recipe for a supercarrier: 1 billion units of tritanium, 330k units of megacyte*

*recipe doesn't change across regions*

*existing supercarriers suddenly worth their weight in trit*

*person not thinking any of this complete garbage through is on the CSM*

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:41:00 - [132]
 

a good way to make 0.0 mining viable is to remove all asteroids from highsec

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:48:00 - [133]
 

If you want mining low-ends, and everything else, to be viable in 0.0, simply make mining yield scale proportional to sec status. You know, the way that rat bounties and planet extraction do?

Hulk mining veld in Jita: 4 ore per second
Hulk mining veld in 0.0: 40 ore per second

(N.B. I have no idea of actual values because I have never mined. Why? Because in 0.0 the skills that I need are not mining skills, or PI skills, but combat skills. Since training is a limited resource, and ratting skills actually overlap with useful ones, I rat)


bestposteringoonfleet
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:53:00 - [134]
 

Cool! It seems that neither CCP nor the CSM members play Eve Online: A Spaceship Game!

Make mining output proportional to true sec status. Therefore, all of 0.0 is not extremely high yield, but certain systems are much more valuable for miners (yuk).

Tuon Peandrag
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:54:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
...
The relationship would change if they were actually providing a service you need. But you wouldn't really need to trust them with stuff pertaining to PvP either. In my experience, tell miners they can join and you'll be providing them with security in a series of system and they'll come. Usually what happened is that the PvPers don't give a rat's arse about miners because they provided not much of value, so they wouldn't defend them, so miners would get ganked and leave...


"Stuff pertaining to pvp" like how many people are in local, where they are and their ship types. Right.

Miners don't need protection though. They can't tank for ****. They just warp out when nmes show up in local. Also, guard duty is just as fun as shooting a station. Nobody wants to camp a gate so some miners don't have to keep an eye on local.

Pomplamuse
Posted - 2011.01.16 19:59:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:04:57
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:00:59
lets not make the game any less fun than it has to be.

mining is about the most boring thing to do in the game.
people who live in 0.0 generally are more interested in combat (otherwise they would not be there).


after living in 0.0 for a long time now, i think i can safely say very little of the population wants to mine at all.
the only ones i have actually seen actively mining do it with many accounts at once.

this suggestion is basically saying: we hate that you play this game, please burn out and quit

if you really want empire people to come to 0.0, then buff 0.0 so ratting/mining makes 2x to 3x the isk l4 missions do per hour.


one final note: please resign, you clearly have no qualification to be on the csm. you continue to prove this with every post.

Ntrails
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:01:00 - [137]
 

If you remove jump bridges, jump freighters and nerf cap manoeuvrability then 0.0 becomes 4 great swathes of blue.

No one can attack, because replacing ships is a nightmare, getting anywhere is a nightmare, and let's face it defenders already have a ton of advantages. The main one of these will be access to a local market.

No single entity is going to reset a sea of blue, because they will simply be eliminated.

What is the great belief? That a bunch of bored empire corps will go out to take space if there are no jump bridges? heh



mkmin
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:17:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom


*recipe for a supercarrier: 1 billion units of tritanium, 330k units of megacyte*




*troll who loves having his shiny toys as long as nobody else gets to have them*

*troll who refuses to see that his 100 SCs per month makes the game less fun for the other 349,000 players in the game*

*troll who talks just to hear himself talk*

*troll who will type 3 walls of text just to see his name in writing* (for the love of jeebus I'm sick of seeing your name on the forums)

*troll who is part of an alliance that prides itself on ****ing in people Cheerios*

*troll who really needs more people telling him how badly he's disliked in the world*

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:18:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Fred Freedom


*recipe for a supercarrier: 1 billion units of tritanium, 330k units of megacyte*




*troll who loves having his shiny toys as long as nobody else gets to have them*

*troll who refuses to see that his 100 SCs per month makes the game less fun for the other 349,000 players in the game*

*troll who talks just to hear himself talk*

*troll who will type 3 walls of text just to see his name in writing* (for the love of jeebus I'm sick of seeing your name on the forums)

*troll who is part of an alliance that prides itself on ****ing in people Cheerios*

*troll who really needs more people telling him how badly he's disliked in the world*


FYI I am solidly behind removing all supercaps from the game in their current form.

bestposteringoonfleet
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:20:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Fred Freedom


*recipe for a supercarrier: 1 billion units of tritanium, 330k units of megacyte*




*troll who loves having his shiny toys as long as nobody else gets to have them*

*troll who refuses to see that his 100 SCs per month makes the game less fun for the other 349,000 players in the game*

*troll who talks just to hear himself talk*

*troll who will type 3 walls of text just to see his name in writing* (for the love of jeebus I'm sick of seeing your name on the forums)

*troll who is part of an alliance that prides itself on ****ing in people Cheerios*

*troll who really needs more people telling him how badly he's disliked in the world*


umad?

Kallehd
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:21:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Fred Freedom

Yes, it's basic supply and demand.

1)I can mine 0.0 veldspar, or I can mine 0.0 arkonor
2)Given I will always have the option of exporting the ark/importing the finished product from Empire instead if that's what it takes, prices between Empire and 0.0 must be relatively close together
3)Since the price of ark is so high and not getting any lower, the only solution that encourages 0.0 production must be to raise the price of veldspar to something in the same ballpark
4)???
5)the economy's dead, Jim



No mate, you currently have the option of exporting ark. What we're talking is of a scenario where exporting that ark is about as much of a nightmare as bringing in large amounts of pretty much anything! It's like alanis said when you really need a knife and only have a spoon. What the hell do you do with ark that you can't sell nor use? On the other hand, all that veldspar might be of use once you're stocked up on ark that you can't take out due to harder logistics.

Originally by: Fred Freedom

If you don't expect this to happen and want production nerfed down to whatever you think is 'reasonable', the answer is a full server wipe because we will simply take our already existing supers/titans and take over the game.

On top of that, I can make 100 BS in Jita right now with roughly an hour of clicking. If it 'should' take thousands of people a month of work to build anywhere near that amount in 0.0, fine; half the game will stage out of Torrinos, the other half will stage out of Keberz, and 0.0 can have a bot in every sanctum and another bot in every drone belt.

Neither of those things is what you probably want out of Eve Online.


Again you talk about the current setting for the logistics in-game. Like I said in my post, these changes would be game changing... as in... you wouldn't play it like you play now! Laughing And I never spoke about nerfing production, just commented on the nerf to logistics. This would have 0 effect on me, as we already have to do coordinated ops just to move fuel inside, past 1 or 2 hostile wspace systems before reaching our own... and we get by.

All I can tell you is that nerfing your (nullsec) logistics would change nullsec more than anything else. You say you'd just use your current SC/Titans and take over the game... good luck in having balls to field them once you realize you can't replace them if you lose them! Smile I mean this not as a personal attack, but as a general note, alliances would be way more thoughtful on where and how to deploy super capitals in fights, making them actually mean something again and making EVE not Super-caps-Online that it is atm!

I still remember 0.0 where a industrial wing was 40% of the alliance and was seen as the backbone of it... atm, you just have highsec alts doing all the industrial/hauling work while you stockpile isk. Can't see the fun anyway you slice it... thus the reason why I'm in wspace ... the true "null sec"! Laughing

My 2 cents!

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:22:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Pomplamuse
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:04:57
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:00:59
lets not make the game any less fun than it has to be.

mining is about the most boring thing to do in the game.
people who live in 0.0 generally are more interested in combat (otherwise they would not be there).


This is the point and the problem. YOU don't want to mine, fine. There are a lot of people who play the game that would LIKE to mine in 0.0. there is no reason for them to do so because of Logistics. More importantly 0.0 holding entities don't WANT miners, they want more PvP pilots because miners are useless for PvP.
On top of all of that the miners can't mine because they are always being told to stop mining and go PvP.

Change the dynamic so that imported goods are more expensive then locally produced goods and you will see more mining/industry locally. As was stated above 0.0 needs a healthier ecosystem.

I am happy, and surprised that the CSM all agreed that JBs need to go. I am even more pleased to see that CCP agrees.

Querns
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:23:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Querns on 16/01/2011 20:23:24
Originally by: mkmin

*troll who refuses to see that his 100 SCs per month makes the game less fun for the other 349,000 players in the game*


How do supercarriers make the game less fun for you? They can't enter highsec.

bestposteringoonfleet
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:25:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito
Originally by: Pomplamuse
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:04:57
Edited by: Pomplamuse on 16/01/2011 20:00:59
lets not make the game any less fun than it has to be.

mining is about the most boring thing to do in the game.
people who live in 0.0 generally are more interested in combat (otherwise they would not be there).


This is the point and the problem. YOU don't want to mine, fine. There are a lot of people who play the game that would LIKE to mine in 0.0. there is no reason for them to do so because of Logistics. More importantly 0.0 holding entities don't WANT miners, they want more PvP pilots because miners are useless for PvP.
On top of all of that the miners can't mine because they are always being told to stop mining and go PvP.

Change the dynamic so that imported goods are more expensive then locally produced goods and you will see more mining/industry locally. As was stated above 0.0 needs a healthier ecosystem.

I am happy, and surprised that the CSM all agreed that JBs need to go. I am even more pleased to see that CCP agrees.


Well, actually, if you mine the minerals yourself, they are essentially free! Therefore a person producing things in 0.0 with minerals he/she/it mined the produced goods would always be cheaper than the imported goods.

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:27:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: bestposteringoonfleet
Well, actually, if you mine the minerals yourself, they are essentially free! Therefore a person producing things in 0.0 with minerals he/she/it mined the produced goods would always be cheaper than the imported goods.

2/10 and that's being generous.

bestposteringoonfleet
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:30:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Originally by: bestposteringoonfleet
Well, actually, if you mine the minerals yourself, they are essentially free! Therefore a person producing things in 0.0 with minerals he/she/it mined the produced goods would always be cheaper than the imported goods.

2/10 and that's being generous.


:smug:

Fred Freedom
The Scope
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:32:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Fred Freedom on 16/01/2011 20:34:28
Originally by: Kallehd
[No mate, you currently have the option of exporting ark. What we're talking is of a scenario where exporting that ark is about as much of a nightmare as bringing in large amounts of pretty much anything! It's like alanis said when you really need a knife and only have a spoon. What the hell do you do with ark that you can't sell nor use? On the other hand, all that veldspar might be of use once you're stocked up on ark that you can't take out due to harder logistics.


What you and the CSM are both missing is that ship recipes don't change.

As long as it is physically possible to jump through a gate I can always import enough megacyte by going to Jita, buying enough of it to max out a blockade runner and bringing in enough mega for us to build anything we want for 6 months. I can also export ark by the same method. I cannot do this with tritanium, because ships require roughly 3,000 times (actual number!) as much of it. All this means for your proposal is that, given an equal price for ark and veld, miners will still only mine ark.

This doesn't mean trit prices will be really high in 0.0, because at the absolute worst 0.0 alliances are literally going to build carriers in lowsec for the sole purpose of flying them to their destination and reprocessing them. There is nothing you can do to spike mineral prices that high in only one area of the game. It just makes industry in 0.0 hideously unfun to the point where we will all be relocating to Torrinos and leaving sov to the bots.

Quote:
Again you talk about the current setting for the logistics in-game. Like I said in my post, these changes would be game changing... as in... you wouldn't play it like you play now! Laughing And I never spoke about nerfing production, just commented on the nerf to logistics. This would have 0 effect on me, as we already have to do coordinated ops just to move fuel inside, past 1 or 2 hostile wspace systems before reaching our own... and we get by.


Ironically, your logistics are easier than ours. Yours are a pain to set up and move, but most of what you need can be produced on site and you only have dozens of members, maybe a few hundred at most, to worry about. You base out of a handful of POS and produce only t3 materials and POS fuel, plus the odd capital ship. This isn't a dig on you - I've actually done WH ops and I know it's tough to do - but you operate on a different scale.

Also, there's the part where you don't build or fly supers (which, admittedly, makes for a better game, just not the one I'm playing.)

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:33:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Originally by: Andrevv

As for letting high secs mine in ones system. That's still a very unlikely scenario right now. You either take them into your corp/alliance and then don't trust them because you never talk to them, or you let them rent and and again don't trust them. It's just making things easier for spies of other alliances.
[EDIT] Posted while shooting station services for 2 hours Ugh. [/EDIT]

That's because miners right now are not part of alliances, they don't contribute much and they're not generally wanted either. Why would you, you don't really need them...
The relationship would change if they were actually providing a service you need. But you wouldn't really need to trust them with stuff pertaining to PvP either. In my experience, tell miners they can join and you'll be providing them with security in a series of system and they'll come. Usually what happened is that the PvPers don't give a rat's arse about miners because they provided not much of value, so they wouldn't defend them, so miners would get ganked and leave...



So essentially you will import miners in a alliance to do grunt work, don't thrust them with anything, insult them because they aren't fighting the PvP battles (not that you want them doing that anyway), pretend them to sell minerals at lower than market cost and they will be happy because "they love mining"?

For someone that has stopped mining years ago you really "know" a lot about miners.

PvPers will not protect miners because it is boring and miners are from "another race". PvPers feel more kinship with PvPers from the other side than with miners.

How many years are you willing to wait for that mentality to change and then, after it has changed, for the miners to trickle in 0.0?



PC l0adletter
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:34:00 - [149]
 

I see a lot of frivolous bickering in this thread, but I think there's actually a lot of agreement.

ITT we all agree:

NDAs are good for silencing critics.

Nobody trusts that CCP is doing anything about non-RMT macros and bots; we think they want the revenue and are afraid to ban customers who are paying for WoD's development.

Exactly one person thinks that six months is a reasonable timeframe for balance changes, and that person thinks such changes are to test and rebalance all ships in the game.

Mining is terrible and not fun. POSes are a nightmare.

CCP is so out of touch with the game that they were easily trolled into proposing the removal of jump bridges.


Relatedly, does anyone understand the weird smugness from CCP about supercarriers? Apparently CCP wanted to nerf them a bit and the players were like, no? I don't get it -- there seems an obvious player consensus that they need to be taken down a notch for balance. They were totally worthless before some buff, right? And by calling for them to be buffed until useful, CCP overshot, and apparently lolplayers/lolcustomers are to blame both for the overshooting and for the fact that it will now take six months to dial them back a notch and maybe buff dreads to compensate?

It all sounds so stupid to me that I feel like surely I must be mistaken, but, on the other hand :CCP:

Jita 4EVAR
Posted - 2011.01.16 20:35:00 - [150]
 

My brilliant solution to the import veld, export ark problem is quite simple.

We currently have 100%, 105%, and 110% variants on ore. Perhaps it would be better if lower sec status meant greater ore compactness? Say, Veldspar in nullsec is 3-4x the density of veld in highsec.

On-site production would become far more viable (especially if this was coupled with boosts to POS and outpost functionality). However, CCP would need to get far more serious on the topic of botters in nullsec.

Thoughts?


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