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blankseplocked Proposal: Rename the L4 mission "Duo of Death"
 
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.01.22 02:02:00 - [1]
 

The mission Duo of Death should send you against two Pith Conquistadors or Usurpers, not bloody 500k Extinguishers. I can kill Extinguishers with harsh language, if they're gonna be the target, I propose we rename "Duo of Death" to "Duo of Mild Bruising, Perhaps Slight Skin Irritation".

Nirat
robota incorporated
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2005.01.22 02:20:00 - [2]
 

yea, also theres some mission where you're supposed to stop a group of theives because they stole some stuff that might be used against the "faction stuff" yet it tells you to recover... Oxygen, Water, Carbon, or some other non deadly stuff...

Hyey
Posted - 2005.01.22 02:30:00 - [3]
 

Actually conqs wouldnt make that spawn much more deadly either :p. Usurpers dont really do what you might call DAMAGE, they just tank ;), as a matter of fact saying Gurista and death in the same sentence happens to be a crime. Dun hold your breath on that one :p

Sherkaner


Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.01.22 10:06:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The mission Duo of Death should send you against two Pith Conquistadors or Usurpers, not bloody 500k Extinguishers. I can kill Extinguishers with harsh language, if they're gonna be the target, I propose we rename "Duo of Death" to "Duo of Mild Bruising, Perhaps Slight Skin Irritation".


Well, when you're done with the mission the duo is dead, isn't it? Razz

Uggster
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku
Posted - 2005.01.22 11:59:00 - [5]
 

Oh..I remember 1 month ago all the "AAARRRGGGHHHHH I CANT DO ALL THESE OH-SO-HARD LVL 4 MISSIONS HEEEELLLLPPP"

And now the "I'm so uber I can do it in a merlin" posts start (no offence to the thread maker, just playing Devils Advocate Wink). Knew it would happen once all those agent runners took off their MWD's and found out what a "Tank" was.

Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2005.01.22 12:23:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Uggster
Oh..I remember 1 month ago all the "AAARRRGGGHHHHH I CANT DO ALL THESE OH-SO-HARD LVL 4 MISSIONS HEEEELLLLPPP"

And now the "I'm so uber I can do it in a merlin" posts start (no offence to the thread maker, just playing Devils Advocate Wink). Knew it would happen once all those agent runners took off their MWD's and found out what a "Tank" was.

Actually kill missions got nerfed. Atleast, they sure as hell feel that way. Most of these normal missions are stuff you should be getting at level 3 agents. A few of the deadspace missions are actually somewhat difficult (RATS CHEAT!) Shocked

theRaptor
Caldari
Tactical Operations
Posted - 2005.01.22 15:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Uggster
Oh..I remember 1 month ago all the "AAARRRGGGHHHHH I CANT DO ALL THESE OH-SO-HARD LVL 4 MISSIONS HEEEELLLLPPP"

And now the "I'm so uber I can do it in a merlin" posts start (no offence to the thread maker, just playing Devils Advocate Wink). Knew it would happen once all those agent runners took off their MWD's and found out what a "Tank" was.

Actually kill missions got nerfed. Atleast, they sure as hell feel that way. Most of these normal missions are stuff you should be getting at level 3 agents. A few of the deadspace missions are actually somewhat difficult (RATS CHEAT!) Shocked


lvl 3 deadspace missions lost a third of their cruiser rats and some frigate rats. It was fun when those missions actually used to be a challenge for a BS.

Helen Tiger
The White Wing Cartel
Posted - 2005.01.22 23:29:00 - [8]
 

I personnally call this mission "duo of dead", which is more fitting. I basically agree with you all, no matter what BS rat it is, killing two BS while flying a BS yourself isn't anything you should get a medal for (except maybe a yummy chocolate medal)

Yeah, Guristas suck. So what, not every criminal can get to be as uber and as leet as we are. Very Happy

As for "tanking"... what is that ? My apoc doesn't have a shield booster nor a repairer and yet have made 100 million in 4 days doing level 4 missions.

I wouldn't tank for the love of Jah. Come on, it is NOT a proof of skill that you can let the enemy hit you. It IS a proof of skill that a 20-ship spawn with elite frigates and Ravens can't even hit you.

Doing level 4 missions in a Kessie... how lame. Hell, my "command division" agent once gave me a stoopid trade mission I could have done in a shuttle, so who is j00r daddy ? Cool

The real challenge with level 4 missions is not to complete them. It's to make the time bonus. The other day I managed to snag a bonus of 300 antimatter reactors, but trust me this really felt like a race, and I was timing every kill !

Some L4 missions, like the one with 10 bookmarks (and as many spawns) don't even have a time bonus, which, surprisingly, makes sense Very Happy

Helen

fairimear
Gallente
The Sp00Ks
Posted - 2005.01.23 00:08:00 - [9]
 

how bout you climb out of the raven of mission ownage and try that lvl4 pirate extrav with the angels in a apoc.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.01.23 00:35:00 - [10]
 

I do my missions in an Apocalypse. Only two siege launchers and already I can't stand how many torpedoes I waste, can't imagine how much a Raven would go through.

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.01.23 01:04:00 - [11]
 

"As for "tanking"... what is that ? My apoc doesn't have a shield booster nor a repairer and yet have made 100 million in 4 days doing level 4 missions.

I wouldn't tank for the love of Jah. Come on, it is NOT a proof of skill that you can let the enemy hit you. It IS a proof of skill that a 20-ship spawn with elite frigates and Ravens can't even hit you."


Uhmm no idea what tactics you use, obviously... but as long as we aren't talking about the deadspace i can stock up on the damage mods, make a bookmark to a bookmark trick, then warp in at range the enemy won't even make it within their firing range before they're dead. Doesn't really make it a proof of any sort of skill on my part, so saying that not getting hit is some kind of universal sign of skill is well, misleading. -.^

CCP Zrakor

Posted - 2005.01.23 03:34:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Zrakor on 23/01/2005 03:33:55
The mission difficulty will get revised once it is merged into the new system (i.e. deadspace type of scenario). Although the difficulty may seem easy to some, to others it's hard, it's completely relative to the person. And that goes for the roleplay story too, to most npcs a duo of two battleships can easily be referred to as a 'duo of death', despite them being the lower end type of battleship. But I see your point of this being pretty easy compared to most level 4 mission encounters.

Free4You
Amarr
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.01.23 06:29:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I do my missions in an Apocalypse. Only two siege launchers and already I can't stand how many torpedoes I waste, can't imagine how much a Raven would go through.


Missiles are really inexspensive now compared what they use to be pre-exodus.
Infernos in my region went from 4k to 400 per torp.

So it isnt that bad.

Joshua Calvert
Caldari
Rule One
Posted - 2005.01.23 09:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Free4You
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I do my missions in an Apocalypse. Only two siege launchers and already I can't stand how many torpedoes I waste, can't imagine how much a Raven would go through.


Missiles are really inexspensive now compared what they use to be pre-exodus.
Infernos in my region went from 4k to 400 per torp.

So it isnt that bad.


Yup - missiles are dirt cheap.

The only drawback is that you sometimes need to dock to reload during some of the longer missions but missiles are still 4tw

Helen Tiger
The White Wing Cartel
Posted - 2005.01.23 12:31:00 - [15]
 

j0sephine : when judging skill, only the result matters. I don't get hit, tanks do. Even if we both complete the mission, the difference between a tank and me is obvious : I didn't put my ship at risk (and you are right, I snipe. Why wouldn't I ?)

Unless you count skill-point (that IS skill), or you consider scars are the proof of a warrior's greatness (which is silly), tanks can't be said to be more skilled than snipers.

BTW, I'm flying an Apoc with no missile launchers but I'll soon be trying a Raven with 6 siege and (possibly) shield tanking, just because I can't be criticizing something I don't know about.

About the cost of missiles : yeah, they went down in price considerably. Also, consider you'll usually waste your torpedoes on rats that have bounties from 100K to 1.5M : that can buy a LOT of torpedoes, so you're still making a big profit.

Of course, nothing can compare to lasers in terms of ammo cost.

My take is, what weapon you use depends on how you want to complete the mission. Sniping is great but takes time, you'll rarely meet the time bonus if a mission has multiple encounters. That's why I'm going for a Raven : for those missions where the bonus reward is so tempting that I'm willing to risk getting hit in order to get it.

I recently got 300 antimatter reactors. By a minute. And the next day, I missed 800 other tech2 components (armor plates), again by a minute. That got me thinking.

Sniping... tanking... maybe both methods are viable to different ends. I'll admit that sniping is definitely carebear-style, but just like tanking it has its risks.

If any rat catches up to a sniper, the sniper is toast. I have no defensive module whatsoever, and I don't think my drones will save me if a level 4 mission spawn gets the drop on me (the 15 cruiser + 2 BS type of spawn). As it is, the biggest threat to snipers are webifying and scrambling frigate rats : their MWD allows them to get to you fast even if you're 100km away, and that leaves you very little time to deal with them.

Helen

Demitri Klashnikov
Amarr
Volunteer Militia for State Security
Posted - 2005.01.23 12:41:00 - [16]
 

I do all the normal missions apoosnipe style


I do the odd deadspace in a tanked raven

I reject silence,damsel and extravaganza, i though you couldnt snipe on the deadspace because the gate warps right into pwnage hell?

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.01.23 14:41:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 23/01/2005 14:43:15
It's not the cost of missiles that bugs me, it's the hassle of having to haul more to my agent station every couple dozen missions. I guess I should just train some manufacturing skills and learn how to *shudder* build my own on-site.

p.s. Zrak, if you're considering turning all missions into deadspace scenarios, I beg you not to... deadspace is a huge drag, what with the meager LP rewards, aggravation of approaching and working acceleration gates (and having to do so repeatedly in case you need to warp out), and non-descript threat profile compared to the normal space missions.

Save deadspace for complexes, leave L4 missions a different kind of fun.

Sherkaner


Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2005.01.23 18:24:00 - [18]
 

Please keep the thread polite and constructive ugh

CCP Zrakor

Posted - 2005.01.23 18:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 23/01/2005 14:43:15
It's not the cost of missiles that bugs me, it's the hassle of having to haul more to my agent station every couple dozen missions. I guess I should just train some manufacturing skills and learn how to *shudder* build my own on-site.

p.s. Zrak, if you're considering turning all missions into deadspace scenarios, I beg you not to... deadspace is a huge drag, what with the meager LP rewards, aggravation of approaching and working acceleration gates (and having to do so repeatedly in case you need to warp out), and non-descript threat profile compared to the normal space missions.

Save deadspace for complexes, leave L4 missions a different kind of fun.


There are plans in the pipeline to implement an "encounter" type of feature, which will use a very similar system to the deadspace missions except they really won't be deadspace missions. The reason for this is that it's not reasonable to maintain the old system and the new deadspace system at the same time, however we can hopefully mimic the old missions by using slightly modified deadspace code. Don't quote me on that though, it's something that is still in the early design stage.

Carmen Priano
Caldari
Cascade Industries
Posted - 2005.01.23 20:15:00 - [20]
 

Istvaan; evidently the LP issue related to deadspace will be dealt with in this next patch. As for that aggravating approach period if you need to warp out...

Zrakor, any way we can get more Deadspace scenarios set up so that the warp-in spot in a given stage is very close to the next acceleration gate? It would cut down a -lot- on the time needed to get back to the engagement area if a pilot is forced to warp out, and that's one of the major aggravations of completing the later stages of dead space missions.

Helen Tiger
The White Wing Cartel
Posted - 2005.01.23 22:00:00 - [21]
 

I agree with Carmen, lots of pilots are complaining that there's too much distance between gates inside deadspace missions / complexes.

While everyone understands that it is meant to avoid people from rushing from gate to gate, someone (don't remember who, but he deserves credit) proposed this solution :

- Put the gate next to the entry beacon
- Only enable the use of the gate once all rats have been destroyed

Also, it would be nice if snipers were given a chance at deadspace missions. Getting catapulted right in the middle of the enemy force effectively limits deadspace missions to tanks, and not everyone likes to tank (or has the skill and modules to do so)

The backstory for deadspace complexes says that the gates are old technology, simply used to fling ships into dead space. We could easily assume that this method is inaccurate, and that your ship ends up 60km from the rats, not right on top of them.

Helen

j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2005.01.23 22:04:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: j0sephine on 23/01/2005 22:04:00

"Zrakor, any way we can get more Deadspace scenarios set up so that the warp-in spot in a given stage is very close to the next acceleration gate?"

I think they're already doing it ^^

Got deadspace mission recently which was set exactly in this manner -- gates to next level within ~15 km of warp-in points, and only possible to activate after everything but the sentries is dead... thing is, i had the very same mission couple weeks before, and back then it had many of these 80+ km crawls... so that's quite an improvement ;o

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.01.23 23:14:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 23/01/2005 23:15:06
Zrakor, while I've got your ear, why not just restore missions to the old format... I don't think I'm alone in saying that deadspace missions are just not as fun as normal space missions. I know that once development starts heading in a new direction it's hard to stop it, but I feel deadspace missions kinda blow.

Barring that, I guess I could rattle off a few things that annoy me about deadspace and make me turn the missions down with nearly religious fervor. Maybe if deadspace is to stay, these could be looked at:

- The first ship to warp to an acceleration gate will arrive 15km away from it. That ship's gangmate will arrive directly on top of it. If two people are trying to do a mission, that second ship will crash into the first and bounce it a few thousand km away. My recommendation would be to extend the activation radius of acceleration gates to 15km, so that the first ship arriving can activate it right off the bat. Or better yet, screw with ship collision grids so they don't function like little acceleration gates for each other, and simply come to a dead stop if they collide.

- Distances, it's been mentioned already, but with MWD disabled (for no reason that I can understand) a couple things happen:

a.) ships which depend on sniping are rendered obsolete, and pacing the insanely fast tackler rats is impossible. When's the last time you heard of anyone doing missions in a Howitzer Tempest? Aside from the freaks who run missions in interceptors to show off, it's Apoc, Raven or bust - because they can engage rats at medium range, and tank damage.

b.) missions are 15% action and 85% locomotion. Boring. Looting is just weird, since after you complete a deadspace mission, the cans remain but the scenery disappears. Where did it go?

c.) rats that prefer to kite you can become infuriating as they coast out of your now mid-ranged (because that's all that works) battleship's reach.

It'd be nice if MWD was re-enabled. I can't imagine it interfering with deadspace missions, it just lets you use more kinds of ships.

- The scenery is there but it doesn't do anything good, for the most part there's no reason to blow up these place markers. All they do (the goddamn clouds especially) is lag me up. Design is just incoherent, most DS missions have a rock formation and some structures thrown about randomly.

These are just my opinions, don't bite my head off...

Jazz Bo
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
Posted - 2005.01.24 00:34:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The mission Duo of Death should send you against two Pith Conquistadors or Usurpers, not bloody 500k Extinguishers. I can kill Extinguishers with harsh language, if they're gonna be the target, I propose we rename "Duo of Death" to "Duo of Mild Bruising, Perhaps Slight Skin Irritation".


The lvl 3 version had you fight two Blackbirds... so it makes sense.

Maybe it's a joke? After all, the game's full of people with "scary" names, who are actually about as dangerous as over-ripe bananas.

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2005.01.24 01:05:00 - [25]
 

My dead uncle Steve would take issue with that comment. He was beheaded by an over-ripe banana.

capt
Posted - 2005.01.24 09:15:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: capt on 24/01/2005 09:15:23
Originally by: Zrakor
There are plans in the pipeline to implement an "encounter" type of feature, which will use a very similar system to the deadspace missions except they really won't be deadspace missions. The reason for this is that it's not reasonable to maintain the old system and the new deadspace system at the same time, however we can hopefully mimic the old missions by using slightly modified deadspace code. Don't quote me on that though, it's something that is still in the early design stage.


I really can't understand why the dev team is so headstrong in reverting all missions to the deadspace type.
Hundreds if not thousands of posts of different people on this very forum have proven that a lot of missioners are not very pleased with deadspace missions as they are right now.

If we come at a point where 100% of missions are deadspace missions and they are unchanged/untweaked an exactly the same as they are right now, then I don't see much future for me in EVE.
I only have 1 character and 1 account and from day 1 (back in june 2003),I have chosen the path of the mission runner.
At the moment I perceive deadspace missions to be a massive timesink, ill-constructed and frankly not very well thought-through or implemented.
For more details as to what i think is wrong with deadspace and other missions I refer you to my older posts as it would make this post a lil' too long...

Daolin
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.01.24 09:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: capt
Edited by: capt on 24/01/2005 09:15:23Hundreds if not thousands of posts of different people on this very forum have proven that a lot of missioners are not very pleased with deadspace missions as they are right now.


"Hundreds, if not thousands"? More like a few dozen, but these make noise for a thousand Laughing
The only thing you have "proven" is that you can whine a lot. And that you apparently never heard words like "afterburner" or "overdrive injector" Razz

There are some valid concerns about deadspace, like aligning/bumping at acceleration gates, but those are minor issues that can easily be fixed.

If you complain that travelling in deadspace takes you too long, you have just fitted your ship wrong. The lack of MWD in deadspace is a challenge, that can be overcome by adapting your tactics to the different environment. For me, they make deadspace more challenging and more interesting.

I am, like you, a 1-char mission runner, but I have to say that I like deadspace missions much better than the old kill missions. And I'm sure that there are many others who think like me, the only problem is that they are too busy running missions to bother reading all that crap on the forums.

Please never make the mistake to think that the forums are in any way representative to what the average EVE population thinks, or that CCP has to change their game just because you say so Cool

capt
Posted - 2005.01.24 10:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Daolin
The only thing you have "proven" is that you can whine a lot. And that you apparently never heard words like "afterburner" or "overdrive injector" Razz

There are some valid concerns about deadspace, like aligning/bumping at acceleration gates, but those are minor issues that can easily be fixed.

If you complain that travelling in deadspace takes you too long, you have just fitted your ship wrong. The lack of MWD in deadspace is a challenge, that can be overcome by adapting your tactics to the different environment. For me, they make deadspace more challenging and more interesting.



I have heard of afterburners and overdrives, but frankly even when using this it is still a slow drag. But then again I am not a sniper who prefers sitting at 120km so I'm not that bothered by the distance between me and the rats as I tend to tank them quite well.

As to there being only a few alligning issues..... What about almost all deadspace missions dishing out the same amount of lp? Surely one cannot say a silence the informant mission is of the same difficulty as a "Sansha's spys" mission?
Then there is the issue of 75-80% of rats not dropping a single can in deadspace. Compared to 90-95% of rats that do drop something in the non-deadspace missions. I am not even talking quality of loot here (that's a completely other issue) but them just dropping a can or not. I still prefer crappy loot over no loot at all......
Then there is the issue of the fact that most structures in the deadspace missions can be destroyed, but th destuction of them has no consequence whatsoever. Sure a limited amount of them drop a can occasionally but most of them don't. I'm not saying I want something to drop from them every time, I would allready be glad if story wise they had some meaning.
Like for example when opening fire on that radar station a message saying "you are about to shoot at a structure that could be of importance to the empire, proceed at your own risk" if thy don't want you to shoot it, or a reference in the mission description like "the serpentis have set up a remote station and sattelite post with which they monitor all our corporations communication, the destruction of these installations would be appreciated by our CEO"...

And that's just naming a few issues....

Daolin
Minmatar
Posted - 2005.01.24 10:32:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: capt
I have heard of afterburners and overdrives, but frankly even when using this it is still a slow drag. But then again I am not a sniper who prefers sitting at 120km so I'm not that bothered by the distance between me and the rats as I tend to tank them quite well.

Yes, but killing the rats is only one part of completing the mission, moving through it is another Cool
Please give it a try and run some missions with afterburner and overdrives. You have to sacrifice some of your tanking, but the added maneuverability makes it so much more enjoyable.

Quote:
As to there being only a few alligning issues..... What about almost all deadspace missions dishing out the same amount of lp? Surely one cannot say a silence the informant mission is of the same difficulty as a "Sansha's spys" mission?

Small bug that can be easily fixed.

Quote:
Then there is the issue of 75-80% of rats not dropping a single can in deadspace. Compared to 90-95% of rats that do drop something in the non-deadspace missions. I am not even talking quality of loot here (that's a completely other issue) but them just dropping a can or not. I still prefer crappy loot over no loot at all......

More loot would require you to travel around in deadspace more Wink
The lack of loot is a balance issue, and has nothing to do with the principle of deadspace.

Quote:
Then there is the issue of the fact that most structures in the deadspace missions can be destroyed, but th destuction of them has no consequence whatsoever. Sure a limited amount of them drop a can occasionally but most of them don't. I'm not saying I want something to drop from them every time, I would allready be glad if story wise they had some meaning.

Again, has nothing to do with the principle of deadspace. The structures are just scenery, you don't need to destroy them.

I totally agree that there are a lot of small (and some big) annoying bugs with missions today, especially with the new deadspace and storyline missions. But please keep in mind that there has been no real patch yet since Exodus launch, only one small hotfix. The patch that was announced for tomorrow will probably bring fixes for some, and I'm sure that the devs are just working on more.

And although those issues currently make deadspace missions less enjoyable than they could be, that has nothing to do with the concept of deadspace. The details may need some working, but the principle is good.

capt
Posted - 2005.01.24 10:43:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Daolin
Originally by: capt
I have heard of afterburners and overdrives, but frankly even when using this it is still a slow drag. But then again I am not a sniper who prefers sitting at 120km so I'm not that bothered by the distance between me and the rats as I tend to tank them quite well.

Yes, but killing the rats is only one part of completing the mission, moving through it is another Cool
Please give it a try and run some missions with afterburner and overdrives. You have to sacrifice some of your tanking, but the added maneuverability makes it so much more enjoyable.


I guess I didn't express myself clearly, my setup includes afterburner (lif) and overdirve (beta hull mod..) but then still, I think it could be better....As you are able to do 2 or even 3 average non-deadspace missions (the longer ones not included" in the time it takes you to do 1 deadspace mission.

Originally by: Daolin

Quote:
Then there is the issue of 75-80% of rats not dropping a single can in deadspace. Compared to 90-95% of rats that do drop something in the non-deadspace missions. I am not even talking quality of loot here (that's a completely other issue) but them just dropping a can or not. I still prefer crappy loot over no loot at all......

More loot would require you to travel around in deadspace more Wink
The lack of loot is a balance issue, and has nothing to do with the principle of deadspace.


wouldn't make me travel around more in deadspace, as you just bookmark then finnish mission and return to bookamrk to pick up loot using an mwd cruiser or frig.



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