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Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.23 18:57:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
You'd bind travel-lanes to stations instead of gates and move the 'absolute bottleneck' up some notches.. systems without any stations would be super-bottlenecks from there on.
I didn't say to remove all gates, so it's not the only avenue into a system. Plus, as long as jumping is slower than gating, it would only be the option out of necessity. Systems with no stations aren't bottlenecks at all since you don't have to follow the path the gates used to. You only need to find systems with stations between point-a and point-b where each are within your jump range.

Originally by: Tres Farmer
This also doesn't solve spawn-point camping.
Disagree completely. First of all, in a typical system you could have a dozen possible entry points and an infinite number of exit points. Most gate camps work on the exit gate as the player warps to it. Now you can jump to another system from anywhere. So anyone planning on camping a system would have to monitor several possible points of entry.

Second of all, if my Rifter fitted with a Tech 2 Nano Jump Drive can jump 2 ly then there are a lot of systems I can just skip. How the f**k can anyone camp a spawn-in point when players can simply opt to skip that system entirely? They can't. And it would be next to impossible to predict which systems would be good camping systems since the number of possible routes is HUGE.
Originally by: Tres Farmer
And to top it of you effectively reduced the number of points of interaction somewhat.
I thought that was the point of taking away the gates? I believe ANY system that gives players freedom such as this would substantially reduce the chance of random interaction. The very nature of eliminating the gates (choke points) will reduce the odds of you seeing another spaceship by a very tangible amount. So what to do? Everything else will need to be rebalanced. So, in what ways would EvE need rebalancing to reintroduce "interaction" points? I don't know, but off the top of my head:

* nerf CONCORD response times thus providing a longer window for tackling
* slow down docking and undocking times, especially in high-congestion areas (Jita)

K'uata Sayus
Posted - 2011.02.23 21:27:00 - [182]
 

Someone has most likely proposed this, but I didn't bother to read the 7 or so pages of comments. Anyway:

Have stargates look like gigantic faces with their mouths open. When you jump you have to fly into the mouth!

We could have clowns, vampires, monsters, dinosaurs and whales!

Waddya think?

Aqy
Posted - 2011.02.23 21:51:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: K'uata Sayus
Someone has most likely proposed this, but I didn't bother to read the 7 or so pages of comments. Anyway:

Have stargates look like gigantic faces with their mouths open. When you jump you have to fly into the mouth!

We could have clowns, vampires, monsters, dinosaurs and whales!

Waddya think?
yeah and your mama face too!!

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.02.24 03:36:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Jango Hett
*snip*
Systems with no stations aren't bottlenecks at all since you don't have to follow the path the gates used to. You only need to find systems with stations between point-a and point-b where each are within your jump range.
If you have no station in a system the gate is the only in and out at your version, no?

Also your version doesn't offer a tradeoff between jumprange (speed) and security (risk). Did you read my ideas for that one? Essentially it should boil down to:
- go fast and deal with low/no security
- go slow and ride under the umbrella of Navy/Concord

Originally by: Jango Hett
Originally by: Tres Farmer
This also doesn't solve spawn-point camping.
Disagree completely. First of all, in a typical system you could have a dozen possible entry points and an infinite number of exit points. Most gate camps work on the exit gate as the player warps to it. Now you can jump to another system from anywhere. So anyone planning on camping a system would have to monitor several possible points of entry.
And why restrict inter-solarsystem-travel to a handful of points within solar systems only again?
I would like to be able to point my ship into some random direction and set a rough distance to jump to and some time later the ship does exactly that. Free to go into any direction I desire. That would feel like real space. Where I left would be information about my track (hunting right there) and where I go to I'd be a sitting duck for a while (keep option for PvP).

If there is a finite number of points you can jump to only, you get:
- bottlenecks (just needs enough podpilots)
- rooms with doors (this sucks)

Originally by: Jango Hett
Second of all, if my Rifter fitted with a Tech 2 Nano Jump Drive can jump 2 ly then there are a lot of systems I can just skip. How the f**k can anyone camp a spawn-in point when players can simply opt to skip that system entirely? They can't. And it would be next to impossible to predict which systems would be good camping systems since the number of possible routes is HUGE.
Eh, no modules, just no. Jumpdrives should be natively available on all ships (maybe tweakable with skills/mods to some degree, but all the time native to all ships).
And jumping 2LY should effectively be very very risky, even in high sec, as otherwise travel would become/stay too fast (some systems have less than .5LY between them).

Originally by: Jango Hett
Originally by: Tres Farmer
And to top it of you effectively reduced the number of points of interaction somewhat.
I thought that was the point of taking away the gates? I believe ANY system that gives players freedom such as this would substantially reduce the chance of random interaction. The very nature of eliminating the gates (choke points) will reduce the odds of you seeing another spaceship by a very tangible amount. So what to do? Everything else will need to be rebalanced. So, in what ways would EvE need rebalancing to reintroduce "interaction" points? I don't know, but off the top of my head:

* nerf CONCORD response times thus providing a longer window for tackling
* slow down docking and undocking times, especially in high-congestion areas (Jita)
We need more possible points of interaction within solar systems and I would prefer no more rooms with doors at the same time.

Whezker
Gallente
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
Posted - 2011.02.24 13:22:00 - [185]
 

Ok that's my go.

Two ways of travelling, one fast and risky (stargates) one slower, but less risky and maybe more fun (openspace)

Stargates run as allways, thats the highspeed way to travel from a system to another. Using stargates you can fall in a pirate camp.

Open space works like that.

Instead of warping to a stargate and jump, you can Warp to the next system from any point in the system you are. The use of this warp is needed to make the room change (session).
To make that warp you need 95% of your capacitor (and use it)
-Optional, maybe you need to fit some special warpdrive to make this jump, or maybe not (you don't need a warp drive for warp around right?)

You get out from warp but NOT IN THE DESTINATION SYSTEM....you land in...openspace.

In openspace you need to reload your capacitor to make the second jump to land in the destination system. This is the time when you are vulnerable to be detected by pirates allocated here in opensace.
You could also explore the area if you like...or pirate other ships.
In openspace you could only warp to the destination system or to the system you come from. SO:

Openspace works as a new room (system) between systems. To get in and out you have to do an interestelar warp. Always you have to do one to enter and one to leave.

Wait for cap recharge is risky but less risky than croos a gate with a camp.

Openspace is a REALLY HUGE AREA where you land in some random point. ŅHere is no local chat? (I don't want to talk about this topic)


I think is a cool and no so agressive way of open space to the game. And I think that this system could reduce lag because we are increassing (a lot) the number of rooms in the game. For example Jita have four systems around to travel, so, is a lot of people concentrated in Jita or in the nearest systems. With openspace some players would travel from system to system using gates and other will pass throught openspace, so, they are not either in Jita either in the System beside. Less players by room, less lag.


Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:23:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
If you have no station in a system the gate is the only in and out at your version, no?
Maybe, there could be a minimum number of cyno's avaialable so that there's always an alternative route to the gates. I'm not saying get rid of the gates -- so it's not trading one bottleneck for another, it's adding a second layer. I'd only propose getting rid of the supergates
Originally by: Tres Farmer
Also your version doesn't offer a tradeoff between jumprange (speed) and security (risk). Did you read my ideas for that one? Essentially it should boil down to:
- go fast and deal with low/no security
- go slow and ride under the umbrella of Navy/Concord

Yes I did read them, and my answer is spool time. The way to explain WHY frigates haven't in the past been able to use jump drives is that they simply require too much power. Spooling is a way to offset that -- so when you're in Jita and punch in a jump to Niyabainen, you get to sit there for three minutes while the jump capacitor charges.

But let's talk about your idea. First, it fails on creating more points of interaction. IF you really want space to be the right scale, then there's an average of about 1.5 lightyears between systems filled with a whole lot of nothing (extremely low density dust). And the highway idea doesn't help -- it makes less sense than gates from a physics POV, and just reintroduces choke points.

Secondly, it completely changes the system. You're talking about a ground-up rewrite, which for any idea, no matter how good it might be, is a bad position to take with CCP. If you want interstellar "wandering" go play Star Trek Online -- it does this, and it's monotonous. EvE is set 20,000 years in the future -- the whole galaxy has been explored. All those litte white dots that you can't go to right now, you can't go there because other than a burning sphere of hydrogen, there's nothing there. EvE is the visceral, pragmatic view of SciFi -- the gates exist to places that are rich in resources. Why waste your time puttering about space that has nothing to offer?

Gates do establish a simple short-route/high-risk, longer-route/less-risk balance. Lets look at how this would change with jump drives and how this would change with just faster warp drives.

With interstellar warp drives, you could easily skirt around any system -- there's more space between systems than the systems themselves take. And thinking in "3D" you don't even have to go much out of your way to avoid systems either, since systems are pancake shaped. Draw a straight line from Jita to the edge of 0.0 space; with a few curves you could get there without getting anywhere near any system, and it wouldn't be more than 10% longer.

Plus, no one has any chance of catching you. First, they'd have no idea where to even start -- there are virtually an infinite number of routes you could take, slight deviations of course would mean millions of kilometres in real space. Secondly, you're moving so fast, that even if they did know your route, how would they intercept you? This is why in SciFi like Star Wars, combat occurs around systems and not in deep-space; because the odds of intercepting someone is more remote than getting hit by lightning and winning the lottery simultaneously.

What about jump drives for everyone? Well, it reduces, but does not eliminate the chance of getting camped; getting from point-a and point-b will still likely land you in a low or null sec system if you're looking for the shortest route; and it introduces a LOT of risk with spooling times. If you're sitting there for three minutes waiting for your jump drive to spool, you're a sitting duck. Plus, even if it's faster than the gates, there's the added cost of the isotopes to consider -- for the first time, pilots would have to worry about fuel.

(Cont'd)

Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:25:00 - [187]
 

(Cont'd)

Originally by: Tres Farmer
And why restrict inter-solarsystem-travel to a handful of points within solar systems only again?
Because outside of the systems, space is pretty boring
Originally by: Tres Farmer
I would like to be able to point my ship into some random direction and set a rough distance to jump to and some time later the ship does exactly that. Free to go into any direction I desire. That would feel like real space. Where I left would be information about my track (hunting right there) and where I go to I'd be a sitting duck for a while (keep option for PvP).

It might "feel" right, but EvE cannon has established that you need a cyno to jump to. So what's generating the cyno at the other end. Remember, these governments have had 20,000 years to explore space the slow way (warp drive) and establish the gates (fast way). So sure, you could have your freedom, but be prepared for weeks of travel time.

PS, how many scanners/probes have a 1ly scanning range? The longest range, 256 AU is only 0.004 lightyears. Do you have ANY IDEA how long it would take to find someone in the vastness of nothing? Seriously, the chance of PvP is impercievably close to zero.
Originally by: Tres Farmer
If there is a finite number of points you can jump to only, you get:
- bottlenecks (just needs enough podpilots)
- rooms with doors (this sucks)

I agree that it's not realistic to have "rooms with doors" per se, but it's not realistic to expect CCP to be able to make an entirely open galaxy, where you can roam ANYWHERE, and still maintain a PvP aspect to the game. As it is, it's too easy to avoid combat -- gate camps and wardecs are widely used because they're just about the only way to engage an unwilling target.

Also, just getting more podpilots to cover all the bases is harder than it sounds. You can't tackle in one ship as a lot of people now zip around with stabs, and most single-player corps can't actively control more than three combat ships at a time. So if an average system used to have ONE choke point, it was easy. Now with a couple, and the off chance that some people might just skip a system that has had recent pod kills, camping will be a lot harder. But open space would make it utterly impossible.

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Eh, no modules, just no. Jumpdrives should be natively available on all ships (maybe tweakable with skills/mods to some degree, but all the time native to all ships).
And jumping 2LY should effectively be very very risky, even in high sec, as otherwise travel would become/stay too fast (some systems have less than .5LY between them).
A magic upgrade this significant breaks cannon, but reflecting on this, rigging would make a lot more sense, and could also be ship-size specific (which modules are not). If I want a Rifter that is jump capable, it would be a major change to the ship, and rigging suits that role.

With regards to distance, much less than 1.5ly will prevent bridging a lot of the chasms between empires. 1.5ly should be the minimum jump range for any jump capable ship. As far as "risk" is concerned, I think that's silly -- since a jump needs a cyno, you either have the range or you don't. The only real risk should be the spool-up time (or cool down time, whatever) that prevents you from making a too speedy exit and the fact the some low and null sec systems would be unavoidable.

(Cont'd)

Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.24 16:29:00 - [188]
 

(Cont'd)

Originally by: Tres Farmer
We need more possible points of interaction within solar systems and I would prefer no more rooms with doors at the same time.
So you want your cake and eat it to. These are not complimentary concepts -- right now, stations and gates are the only points of interaction. Remove one of them, and you're reducing the points of interaction by a substantial amount. The only way this COULD work would be to increase the range and accuracy of scanning by a couple orders of magnitude, and then add in smart filters so you wouldn't get 100,000 items you don't care about. All in, you're talking about:

a) introducing intra-system zones that can seamlessly handle border traffic (compartamentalizing all space into sectors and allowing arbitrary transitions between each sector)
b) allowing scanning to extend into any zones within range, and handling databse requests of possible hudreds of thousands of "hits"
c) eliminating gates, necessitating the overhaul of all ships to include some jumpdrive functionality without the aid of cynos
d) ability to navigate and autopilot an arbitrary course between any two systems

You're talking about the last nail in the PvP coffin. Seriously, play out what pirating would be like. It would mean sitting on the probe scanning screen, hunting for possible targets, hoping that people just "happen" to route nearby. 1/100 scan attempts give you a blip, and then you have to MWD your probes over to start triangulation. A minute later, you might have him, but by the time your team aligns and warps there, there's a really good chance their jump has cooled down and they're gone. If youre plan is to kill open PvP entirely, then this would do it.

This isn't a small change, and I'd argue this isn't even EvE anymore, it's Star Trek.

Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.24 17:14:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Whezker
Instead of warping to a stargate and jump, you can Warp to the next system from any point in the system you are. <snip> You get out from warp but NOT IN THE DESTINATION SYSTEM....you land in...openspace.
Maybe a warp amplifier in the rigging to support the speeds required to travel that far. Fastest ship right now is 12 AU/s -- a half system jump might be 0.75ly on average, or 47,429 AU -- a little over an hour. However, jump drives make more sense from a cannon perspective, but I really like the mechanic of jumping to open space first before jumping to another system.
Originally by: Whezker
In openspace you need to reload your capacitor to make the second jump to land in the destination system. This is the time when you are vulnerable to be detected by pirates allocated here in openspace. You could also explore the area if you like...or pirate other ships. <snip>
Openspace would be and should be, by definition, 0.0 space; using probes to find annomolies out there should yield equivalent finds as 0.0 space as well. Also, the pirates should be the same -- but as you said, it's huge empty space, so you'd have to sit there for a very long time before any pirates would find you.

You could also have rouge moons out there where players could have stations, etc... damn, what an intriguing idea.
Originally by: Whezker
I think is a cool and no so agressive way of open space to the game.
The only problem I see is the sheer number of "open space rooms" there would need to be. If you set an upper limit to 4 lightyear jumps, there would be about 200,000 open space rooms to maintain. Now, even with little-to-nothing there to maintain, it's still a lot of extra work for the servers.

Of course, that's far fewer than if we simply sectored all EvE space. If New Eden were a disc, 39,000 ly in radius and 15,000 ly "thick", we'd have 71,704,285,714,286 1 ly sectors of which about 7,900 have gates and systems in them (that's about 0.000000011% of all sectors). The sheer overhead in processing empty sectors on a daily basis would be more than CCP's servers could handle.

Originally by: Whezker
And I think that this system could reduce lag because we are increassing (a lot) the number of rooms in the game. For example Jita have four systems around to travel, so, is a lot of people concentrated in Jita or in the nearest systems. With openspace some players would travel from system to system using gates and other will pass throught openspace, so, they are not either in Jita either in the System beside. Less players by room, less lag.
I don't necessarily think this will solve the lag problem. To break up Jita will need something more drastic than being able to bypass gates; the elimination of the supergates might help, and having to navigate through a pocket of 0.0 space will make cross-empire trading VERY challenging.


betoli
Gallente
Posted - 2011.02.25 00:39:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Jango Hett
(Cont'd)

Originally by: Tres Farmer
We need more possible points of interaction within solar systems and I would prefer no more rooms with doors at the same time.
So you want your cake and eat it to. These are not complimentary concepts -- right now, stations and gates are the only points of interaction. Remove one of them, and you're reducing the points of interaction by a substantial amount. The only way this COULD work would be to increase the range and accuracy of scanning by a couple orders of magnitude,



Wanting cake and eating it - shocking :-)

I would think this proposal neccesarily moves away from choke points and introduces choke situations. The current scanning mechanism of scanning isn't up to the job of providing this IMO even with a buff, I'd much prefer a ship thats activating its interstellar drive to appear on the overview for the duration of its spin-up/down period (this happens because the immense energy involved in the mechanism makes it a 'flare' in the system). That means if you want to camp or guard a system you need fast ships that can get to the target quickly.



Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.25 02:08:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: betoli
Wanting cake and eating it - shocking :-)
LOL
Originally by: betoli
I would think this proposal neccesarily moves away from choke points and introduces choke situations. The current scanning mechanism of scanning isn't up to the job of providing this IMO even with a buff, I'd much prefer a ship thats activating its interstellar drive to appear on the overview for the duration of its spin-up/down period (this happens because the immense energy involved in the mechanism makes it a 'flare' in the system). That means if you want to camp or guard a system you need fast ships that can get to the target quickly.
Cynos already show up in the overview, the act of jumping would always give a small advance warning to anyone paying attention in the destination system. Being able to remotely establish a cyno field doesn't not make it a cyno field (sorry to all non-native English speakers for the use of a double negative).

Note -- There appears to already be something similar being proposed by the CSM:

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Covert_cynosural_fields_in_high_security_space_(CSM)

Whezker
Gallente
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
Posted - 2011.02.25 12:25:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Jango Hett
Originally by: Whezker
Instead of warping to a stargate and jump, you can Warp to the next system from any point in the system you are. <snip> You get out from warp but NOT IN THE DESTINATION SYSTEM....you land in...openspace.
Maybe a warp amplifier in the rigging to support the speeds required to travel that far. Fastest ship right now is 12 AU/s -- a half system jump might be 0.75ly on average, or 47,429 AU -- a little over an hour. However, jump drives make more sense from a cannon perspective, but I really like the mechanic of jumping to open space first before jumping to another system.
Originally by: Whezker
In openspace you need to reload your capacitor to make the second jump to land in the destination system. This is the time when you are vulnerable to be detected by pirates allocated here in openspace. You could also explore the area if you like...or pirate other ships. <snip>
Openspace would be and should be, by definition, 0.0 space; using probes to find annomolies out there should yield equivalent finds as 0.0 space as well. Also, the pirates should be the same -- but as you said, it's huge empty space, so you'd have to sit there for a very long time before any pirates would find you.

You could also have rouge moons out there where players could have stations, etc... damn, what an intriguing idea.
Originally by: Whezker
I think is a cool and no so agressive way of open space to the game.
The only problem I see is the sheer number of "open space rooms" there would need to be. If you set an upper limit to 4 lightyear jumps, there would be about 200,000 open space rooms to maintain. Now, even with little-to-nothing there to maintain, it's still a lot of extra work for the servers.

Of course, that's far fewer than if we simply sectored all EvE space. If New Eden were a disc, 39,000 ly in radius and 15,000 ly "thick", we'd have 71,704,285,714,286 1 ly sectors of which about 7,900 have gates and systems in them (that's about 0.000000011% of all sectors). The sheer overhead in processing empty sectors on a daily basis would be more than CCP's servers could handle.

Originally by: Whezker
And I think that this system could reduce lag because we are increassing (a lot) the number of rooms in the game. For example Jita have four systems around to travel, so, is a lot of people concentrated in Jita or in the nearest systems. With openspace some players would travel from system to system using gates and other will pass throught openspace, so, they are not either in Jita either in the System beside. Less players by room, less lag.
I don't necessarily think this will solve the lag problem. To break up Jita will need something more drastic than being able to bypass gates; the elimination of the supergates might help, and having to navigate through a pocket of 0.0 space will make cross-empire trading VERY challenging.





I really love the idea of OpenSpace. I will open a new thread to expose this idea because I'm not talking about removing stargates. I'm talking about create new game content with some new mechanichs I need to think about.

I think that if we focus on this type of rooms instead thinking in a "just one room galaxy with all systems", could be possible made.

Dopesick
Minmatar
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.02.26 09:12:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Jayson Lee
For example you could have a passive deployable scanner that does not give away position but only detects those objects that emit noise. Or you could use a scanner that, like sonar, sends out a pulse to locate other ships. It gives away your position but its much better at finding ships.



There is no sound in space.

Jango Hett
Posted - 2011.02.26 18:45:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Whezker
I really love the idea of OpenSpace. I will open a new thread to expose this idea because I'm not talking about removing stargates. I'm talking about create new game content with some new mechanichs I need to think about.

I think that if we focus on this type of rooms instead thinking in a "just one room galaxy with all systems", could be possible made.
Openspace would be an awesome addition to EvE! I'll save my ideas for that thread then.

Amaroq Dricaldari
Amarr
Vengeance Industrial Militia
Posted - 2011.03.22 15:34:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Suljak
Sounds to me the op is either a failure at gate camping or is just not making it through the gate to low/null sec. Stop crying and find a different route.


Don't shake the lightbulb...

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.22 22:21:00 - [196]
 

I support the exploration of this idea to its fullest, by the player base and CCP. I have read through the thread and there are some really great thought experiments going on. I think eventually these ideas could lead to a workable solution to the choke points that are gates...I like to think of the idea as a way to loosen the choke hold, not get rid if it entirely.

I wish I had more to add myself, maybe soon...but for now, keep the good ideas rollin!

Justice Starcatcher
Volatile Nature
Posted - 2011.05.04 15:46:00 - [197]
 

I've never understood this desire to remove gates. It's like you're playing football, and saying I perfer round balls to footballs. If you go get a round ball you're not playing football any more. Eve is a game centered around solar systems divided by gates. It's a defining charachteristic of the game.

Joe Phoenix
The Commonwealth Federation
Posted - 2011.05.04 16:26:00 - [198]
 

I like the idea.. it will never happen..

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.04 18:14:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Justice Starcatcher
I've never understood this desire to remove gates. It's like you're playing football, and saying I perfer round balls to footballs. If you go get a round ball you're not playing football any more. Eve is a game centered around solar systems divided by gates. It's a defining charachteristic of the game.


Horrible analogy. That's kind of like saying that cars are a defining characteristic of modern life and flying in planes is just wrong because it's not a car. Change happens...nothing in life is static, so why should gates in Eve be considered an absolute must have? I don't see why if the technology can support their removal and it makes sense it terms of gameplay and it can be properly balanced.

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2011.05.04 19:04:00 - [200]
 

removal of stargates? YES

Space in EVE is to much "schematic". Give us freedom.

IIIAsharakIII
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.05.04 19:25:00 - [201]
 

Why not make the solar systems themselves more expansive and grand, instead of the space between the solar systems?

Also,

bring deep safes back.

Griptus
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.04 22:23:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Griptus on 12/05/2011 02:29:17

I don't support removing gates but, I'm ALL FOR spreading ships out and increasing the jump range. Extend the minimum jump distance from 2.5km to 250km, and warp or spawn ships to random locations within 250km but no less than 100km.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.05 00:37:00 - [203]
 

I'm sure this has been mentioned (sorry, can't be bothered to read 7 pages of rather longish posts), but how would they manage server load without gates? How would they separate the space so that someone in one system doesn't effect those in other systems?

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.05 03:32:00 - [204]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 05/05/2011 05:10:36
Originally by: Jango Hett
Originally by: Tres Farmer
*snip*

But let's talk about your idea. First, it fails on creating more points of interaction. IF you really want space to be the right scale, then there's an average of about 1.5 lightyears between systems filled with a whole lot of nothing (extremely low density dust). And the highway idea doesn't help -- it makes less sense than gates from a physics POV, and just reintroduces choke points.

The highway idea was the OPs idea and I wholeheartedly disagree with him on this, as do you.

Originally by: Jango Hett
*snap*

Gates do establish a simple short-route/high-risk, longer-route/less-risk balance. Lets look at how this would change with jump drives and how this would change with just faster warp drives.

With interstellar warp drives, you could easily skirt around any system -- there's more space between systems than the systems themselves take. And thinking in "3D" you don't even have to go much out of your way to avoid systems either, since systems are pancake shaped. Draw a straight line from Jita to the edge of 0.0 space; with a few curves you could get there without getting anywhere near any system, and it wouldn't be more than 10% longer. ..

Correct. Though I would wish that space out there to have a security below 0.5, so no concord, no faction navy.. everybody travelling out there between the stars does this on his own risk. The 1 Million Dollar question now is: How to get the risk out there? >> actual intel-tools don't work so far out (d-scan, map, overview, probes).
Creating the point of interaction out there is pretty easy:
  1. spool up/down timer for the jump drive
  2. jump range is restricted and the longer you jump the less of a chance/option there is to land close to solar systems (read: no concord/navy protection)
  3. incoming jumps into sov territory is more accurately traceable by sov holder and the hopefully employed border patrol of that space (might work for FW territory for the militia)
  4. jump start point leaves a trace behind that is usable to go directly after someone
  5. jumps them self are visible as general ping x-AU wide.. depending on ship/distance jumped
So yeah, some kind of scanner that goes 2-3 LY or even further out would be cool (to get the risk there), otherwise people staying out there could become invincible.
Originally by: Jango Hett
*snip*

What about jump drives for everyone? Well, it reduces, but does not eliminate the chance of getting camped; getting from point-a and point-b will still likely land you in a low or null sec system if you're looking for the shortest route; and it introduces a LOT of risk with spooling times. If you're sitting there for three minutes waiting for your jump drive to spool, you're a sitting duck. Plus, even if it's faster than the gates, there's the added cost of the isotopes to consider -- for the first time, pilots would have to worry about fuel.

(Cont'd)

That's balancing work for the spool timers.. see, my intention is to break up the roadblocks and get those pirates hunting again, instead of sitting at the block and shooting fish in a barrel.

For the guys in null-sec, which need to 'control' their 'borders' from intruders preying on the soft targets in the backyard.. incoming jumps should give a more accurate ping to the sov holding ally and patrols can hunt the threat down. If there is no actual threat they can shoot NPC or try to poke the neighbours. At the moment they can't do this as they're bound to the bubbled gate for 'effective border control'.

As for fuel.. no one said anything about fuel.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.05 04:00:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Jango Hett
(Cont'd)
*snip*
Originally by: Tres Farmer
If there is a finite number of points you can jump to only, you get:
- bottlenecks (just needs enough podpilots)
- rooms with doors (this sucks)

I agree that it's not realistic to have "rooms with doors" per se, but it's not realistic to expect CCP to be able to make an entirely open galaxy, where you can roam ANYWHERE, and still maintain a PvP aspect to the game. As it is, it's too easy to avoid combat -- gate camps and wardecs are widely used because they're just about the only way to engage an unwilling target.

The roadblocks are so effective that those unwilling targets stay rather in high sec than ever trying their luck in the concord-free zones. Roaming gangs don't find each other for other reasons.. gates don't leave the information behind who and what just went through. The accuracy of the map is an 'average of the last 30 minutes for people staying around' and 'jumps in last hour' for travel.

If there would be some kind of scanner that could find those traces you left behind and is able to get some information about the one who left it behind there would be real hunting and a better matchup for roaming pvp'ers.. like:
Scout of a gang of 4 destroyers: "Uh oh, I found a trace here guys.. it looks like 2 cruisers, 2 frigs and a destroyer just jumped 4 LY from my position to somewhere"
FC: "Go for it"
.. instead of the 30 system roam and finding nothing besides a camp of 4 BS, 5 BC and some tacklers.

Originally by: Jango Hett
*snip*
Originally by: Tres Farmer
*snap*
And jumping 2LY should effectively be very very risky, even in high sec, as otherwise travel would become/stay too fast (some systems have less than .5LY between them).

*snip*

With regards to distance, much less than 1.5ly will prevent bridging a lot of the chasms between empires. 1.5ly should be the minimum jump range for any jump capable ship. As far as "risk" is concerned, I think that's silly -- since a jump needs a cyno, you either have the range or you don't. The only real risk should be the spool-up time (or cool down time, whatever) that prevents you from making a too speedy exit and the fact the some low and null sec systems would be unavoidable.

(Cont'd)

You don't need a cyno.. loose that thought of the actual jumpdrive technology. You can't expect everybody to have it's own scout with a cyno up. That's just technology from the last century.
New Eden soon will be able to have medical cloning outside of pods.
Why can't New Eden invent (or steal the tech from the Jovians if you so will) to be able to jump to any (how accurate that is is another matter) coordinate they want to, without a cyno there?
A cyno gives you an accuracy of about 5km around the coordinates it was lit up.
How about those new jumpdrives can jump around free now, but accuracy is so bad you can't jump close (within for example 10AU) to anything in the destination system.. and for very long range jumps this goes up significantly.. like 100 AU outside for example.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.05 04:41:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Jango Hett
(Cont'd)*snap*
All in, you're talking about:
a) introducing intra-system zones that can seamlessly handle border traffic (compartamentalizing all space into sectors and allowing arbitrary transitions between each sector)

As explained earlier, the actual space simulation can track your position over several AU out from the systems star. At the moment you just can't arrive in that other system as there is no session change to make this happen. If the session change would be bound to the actual distance of your ship to the stars around it you could initiate a session change as soon as you're closer to the next star.
Originally by: Jango Hett
b) allowing scanning to extend into any zones within range, and handling databse requests of possible hundreds of thousands of "hits"

What kind of signatures are of interest for this here? Ships, and only ships that are in 'transit'. This means all ships spooling up/down or actually are jumping are collected in a database and that one gets hit. Then there might be ships out there between the stars further out than any probe can get too.. those might need to be in that DB too.
Then there should be no garbage out there to keep this DB small and fast.. so anything dropped out there vanishes after a short amount of time.
Originally by: Jango Hett
c) eliminating gates, necessitating the overhaul of all ships to include some jumpdrive functionality without the aid of cynos

I don't think that's a deal-breaker.
Originally by: Jango Hett

d) ability to navigate and autopilot an arbitrary course between any two systems

Yes. Set the AP to stay in the security rating of your choice and the computer should be able to make jumps as far as possible but landing within the solar systems to be within concord/navy range.
If the plot can't be calculated (try to jump to Maire from Jita using only high sec and see what happens) you obviously have to go through some lower security space.

Originally by: Jango Hett
You're talking about the last nail in the PvP coffin. Seriously, play out what pirating would be like. It would mean sitting on the probe scanning screen, hunting for possible targets, hoping that people just "happen" to route nearby. 1/100 scan attempts give you a blip, and then you have to MWD your probes over to start triangulation. A minute later, you might have him, but by the time your team aligns and warps there, there's a really good chance their jump has cooled down and they're gone. If youre plan is to kill open PvP entirely, then this would do it.

Depends completely on how the mechanic can be implemented.
I don't think there should be active scans involved.. at least not for getting the information that something nearby is ripping through space time.
High sec should be pretty noisy because of this.. quite like a school of fish swarming through the sea. No easy picks.
The lone traveller or a group of them in open water on the other hand.. YARRRR!!

Now, the information that something ripped through nearby space is created and sent to all in that space when it happens (could be created when the traveller spools up.. his info is put into the DB). Next for you would be to try to get the drop-off coordinates of that 'moving something' fast and balanced to the hunting party, while the prey is cooling-down/spooling-up.

The wider the traveller jumps, the further away this ripping should be sensed. The smaller jumps he makes, the smaller the footprint or 'thud'. Same should go for shipsize..
This info is available while he spools up. Entry into the DB is made with sol systems he can be sensed from. This info then gets sent to all pilots in those systems who want to get this info.

As for making it in time to the prey.. hey that would be part of the hunt/chase.. no? Who says all spool timers should be the same?
Send a fast tackler or a group if them ahead.. then bring in the big boys.

Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
Posted - 2011.05.05 05:16:00 - [207]
 

Some interesting back and forth here, so I'll add my own two cents. And no, I did not read every reply:

- Stargates are a method for handling a player moving from one system to the next, and if necessary, one server cluster to the next. It's a very simplified mechanic which allows the server to reduce it's workload for player movement. Yes, it would be possible to add a new mechanic for player movement, but whether it would be simpler or cause less lag is arguable.

- Stargates facilitate player chokepoints, which in a massive game such as EvE helps draw players into conflict. Yes, I understand if this is exactly the opposite of what many players want, since they'd rather have every mean at their disposal to avoid being forced into combat. This is definitely something to expect from players who want less risk associated with their travels, whether they are anti-combat or simply wish to take what others have more easily.

- Stargates are chokepoints, and as chokepoints they are the ONLY means for system control. Without a means of attacking those who enter your system before they actually get all the way in, you're incapable of preventing holding any space for viable amounts of time. Again, I understand if this is opposite of what many wish, but those individuals who would like this removed have never gone through the work and effort to hold a system and make something in EvE.

- Stargates are part of the backstory. For many this doesn't matter as they would rather CCP just twist and change to backstory to suit their own smarter, more thought out beliefs on what a sci-fi universe should have. But in CCP's concept of EvE (at least so far, admittedly barring future technological advancements in-character), there are no ships with the capability to simply jump between systems. Even capital ships need to use the technology behind gates (point of entry, point of exit before travel). Wormholes do as well.

- Stargates are, in-character, safer than traveling the vast void between stars. Due to the incredibly long time it takes for a ship to travel at maximum speed between systems (months and years), the amount of space debris and volatile environments in this area of space (affected by warp speed? Who knows), and random encounters with black holes and the like, stargates prevent characters and their ships from falling off the edge of the world, so to speak.



Finally: I don't necessarily dislike the idea. But I feel it should be restricted to single ships, maybe either specialty ships designed for it, or a new class of ship module which reduces the other capabilities of the ship. For everyone, though? I'm not convinced it would be a good idea.

Funny, years ago when I first started I pursued the same design as this. Today, after years of playing the game, I feel that it's a naive desire for those who don't fully understand ALL playstyles in EvE. I no longer think that it's a change for the better. Possible? Yes. Better than what we have? No.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.05 08:09:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 05/05/2011 08:09:46
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Stargates are a method for handling a player moving from one system to the next, and if necessary, one server cluster to the next. It's a very simplified mechanic which allows the server to reduce it's workload for player movement. Yes, it would be possible to add a new mechanic for player movement, but whether it would be simpler or cause less lag is arguable
Capital jumpdrives aren't exactly stargates and can be lit up all over low- and null-sec.
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Stargates facilitate player chokepoints, which in a massive game such as EvE helps draw players into conflict. Yes, I understand if this is exactly the opposite of what many players want, since they'd rather have every mean at their disposal to avoid being forced into combat. This is definitely something to expect from players who want less risk associated with their travels, whether they are anti-combat or simply wish to take what others have more easily.
Some pages ago I drew some numbers for players vs systems over the years. CCP can always add more gates, but a sandbox is something different.
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Stargates are chokepoints, and as chokepoints they are the ONLY means for system control. Without a means of attacking those who enter your system before they actually get all the way in, you're incapable of preventing holding any space for viable amounts of time. Again, I understand if this is opposite of what many wish, but those individuals who would like this removed have never gone through the work and effort to hold a system and make something in EvE.
No one is gonna take system-control/border-control from the null-sec-turf-war-guys. The opposite is true.. this will give them the chance to go ratting/plexing while still being able to respond to patrol duties, if there are incoming jumps, as the sov-holding entity should get pretty good information from pos/outpost modules about what is travelling around its space.
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Stargates are part of the backstory. For many this doesn't matter as they would rather CCP just twist and change to backstory to suit their own smarter, more thought out beliefs on what a sci-fi universe should have. But in CCP's concept of EvE (at least so far, admittedly barring future technological advancements in-character), there are no ships with the capability to simply jump between systems. Even capital ships need to use the technology behind gates (point of entry, point of exit before travel). Wormholes do as well. *snip*
Human history contains many technologies which now is obsolete.. why should New Eden stand still?
You might know from the backlore that pod technology wasn't always available to space pilots.. or that the gates leading into Jove space were not always closed..
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Finally: I don't necessarily dislike the idea. But I feel it should be restricted to single ships, maybe either specialty ships designed for it, or a new class of ship module which reduces the other capabilities of the ship. For everyone, though? I'm not convinced it would be a good idea.
Exactly that's why I would like to test something like this on Duality at some point in the Future.
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Funny, years ago when I first started I pursued the same design as this. Today, after years of playing the game, I feel that it's a naive desire for those who don't fully understand ALL playstyles in EvE. I no longer think that it's a change for the better. Possible? Yes. Better than what we have? No.
Only time will tell..

Justice Starcatcher
Volatile Nature
Posted - 2011.05.06 13:45:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Justice Starcatcher
I've never understood this desire to remove gates. It's like you're playing football, and saying I perfer round balls to footballs. If you go get a round ball you're not playing football any more. Eve is a game centered around solar systems divided by gates. It's a defining charachteristic of the game.


Horrible analogy. That's kind of like saying that cars are a defining characteristic of modern life and flying in planes is just wrong because it's not a car. Change happens...nothing in life is static, so why should gates in Eve be considered an absolute must have? I don't see why if the technology can support their removal and it makes sense it terms of gameplay and it can be properly balanced.


The analogy is correct. Nowhere did I say one game was better than the other, but they are different. Neither is change bad. Iím not even arguing against their removal, but you have to understand how fundamental they are to the game. So fundamental, that their removal would make this a different game altogether. To use YOUR analogy, if we removed all cars donít you think it would be a radical change? Iím pretty sure it would it make it a completely different world.

Cedims
Posted - 2011.05.08 06:48:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Cedims on 08/05/2011 06:48:43
I for one, think that Tres Farmer (and OP of course) has a solution for a better EVE.

I'd love to see something like "Battlestar Galactica", where the jump drive has to spool up, etc.

And, how about being able to "trace" recent jumps from a system, so that an additional cat and mouse game could be introduced. Since everyone, in this case, would have a spool time (long or short) one could not just instantly jump anyways, but sort of a tracker scheme anyhow. Sort of like the wormhole "expire" after some time, a jump could have an "expiration" timer.

The star gates are systematically being closed by the Jovians, for reasons unknown, and an open coalition between the four races, invents a "universal" jump drive system, to counter their fifth relatives seemingly crazy action.

Anyways, I believe this will elevate EVE. It will also make it seem more like actual free *space* rather than a railway in space.


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