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CCP Fallout

Posted - 2011.01.13 17:16:00 - [1]
 

The meeting minutes continues. Many of you were curious as to the more meatier things discussed between CCP and the Council of Stellar Management. Feast away!

eggtimer smith
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:20:00 - [2]
 

IB4C

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:27:00 - [3]
 

Hope this one has more to say about the bot issue

Iamien
Democracy of Klingon Brothers
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:30:00 - [4]
 

third. Lets hope for juicy details.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:33:00 - [5]
 

Fourth... (this is starting to sound lame :p)

Tather Demaleon
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:42:00 - [6]
 


eggtimer smith
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:15:00 - [7]
 

A good read. Can't wait for the third installment. I really liked the insight into QA and Carbon groups. Keep up the good work CSM and CCP

dkbjitawhore
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:29:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: dkbjitawhore on 13/01/2011 18:33:06
Next time CSM, please address all the light stuff that is easy to turn into minutes first, so we do not have to read things in disjointed order.

It's like reading a book starting with the last chapter and moving slowly to the beginning.

Edit: Can't wait to see what comes out at fanfest that will be too late to lower our expectations. Maybe Incarna in newbsystems only or some such(Or extremely limited number with none in nullsec).

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 13/01/2011 18:40:18
Originally by: dkbjitawhore
Next time CSM, please address all the light stuff that is easy to turn into minutes first, so we do not have to read things in disjointed order.


I believe it was CCP who determined the order of distribution, in this case.

A quick summary of the minutes:
  • Some excellent work has been done by CCP's Core team, and great technical progress is being made across the board.
  • The game's economy is in worse shape than the optimism in the minutes would lead you to believe.
  • The CSM has continued to be helpful in making things work better at CCP.
Why is all the Incarna related discussion buried under an NDA? Why does CCP not realize the reason for the decrease in belt ratting? A simple check on day to day activities reveals the reason to be Cosmic Anomalies; they provide far better ISK per hour and at a lower level of risk than asteroid belt ratting has.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:38:00 - [10]
 

Quote:
As a response to this there was a consensus from the CSM that belt ratting had decreased significantly. The reasons for that are not fully known at this time and will be investigated.


notsureifserious.jpg

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:38:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: dkbjitawhore
Edited by: dkbjitawhore on 13/01/2011 18:29:40
Next time CSM, please address all the light stuff that is easy to turn into minutes first, so we do not have to read things in disjointed order.

It's like reading a book starting with the last chapter and moving slowly to the beginning.


Noted. However there's also this: Consensus on the accuracy of the minutes and lobbying for the inclusion of things you might be interested in but is currently considered NDA is a back & forth process between the CSM and CCP. There have been instances in the past where the minutes left one side or the other not entirely satisfied, so everyone is taking some extra time to make sure everyone's point of view is accurately portrayed. Should we decide to publish everything as a whole you'd thus have to wait longer to get any information...

We tested the staggered release this time around. The easiest stuff got released first and we're moving down the list... We'll see how that went and change the reporting of the minutes in CSM 6 based on the reception. But your comment is taken into account.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:47:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion

  • Some excellent work has been done by CCP's Core team, and great technical progress is being made across the board.
  • The game's economy is in worse shape than the optimism in the minutes would lead you to believe.
  • The CSM has continued to be helpful in making things work better at CCP.
Why is all the Incarna related discussion buried under an NDA? Why does CCP not realize where ratting is now taking place within the game? A simple check on day to day activities reveals the reason to be Cosmic Anomalies; they provide far better ISK per hour and at a lower level of risk than asteroid belt ratting has.

Core team is indeed great, they don't get praised too often because it's mostly stuff we don't see directly, but rather things others use to give us things we see. Except for the occasional nerd **** :p

And the reason InCarna discussion is burried under NDA is because everyone expects InCarna to be something different, individual CSM members have their own ideas, the public at large does, CCP does. All those blury visions of what it could/should be are difficult to manage and consistent communication has to be established. Due to the differing opinions on how best to proceed forward, InCarna is still under NDA. You can be assured we're working on getting the information out in as clear and timely a fashion as possible.
I know it sucks, but at least you know some people do have information and are working on making sure CCP hears your feedback.

Boxless
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:55:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Boxless on 13/01/2011 18:56:27
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
I know it sucks, but at least you know some people do have information and are working on making sure CCP hears your feedback.


Are the differing views related to how developed Incarna will be upon release, or has there been considerable development in a direction that most players would find unexpected? That is the most pressing question me as a player wants to know. We have been teased with Incarna for over 4 years now, if they deliver the core features they have been talking about for the past 3+ years, I will be happy.

Not to be a cynic, but how are you going to receive our feedback on information that you know but we are unable to inform us of.

mvrck22
Posted - 2011.01.13 18:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
Why is all the Incarna related discussion buried under an NDA? Why does CCP not realize the reason for the decrease in belt ratting? A simple check on day to day activities reveals the reason to be Cosmic Anomalies; they provide far better ISK per hour and at a lower level of risk than asteroid belt ratting has.


Read the PC Gamer article with their lead designer ridiculing the faith customers put in him with his comments of how they just want to do new stuff, but hey, got to do stupid stuff like keeping customers happy with rockets - as if that was the beef of 18 months was about. Amazing display of contempt.

Basically, nearly 5 years later all they have is the same as the last hundred times hey gave Incarna insights. Selling hot air is an art, which works quite well, but it does not keep.

Has there been any tangible and meaninful collaboration between the Incarna and CCP's creative vision teams and the CSM? At all?

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:08:00 - [15]
 

The entirety of these meetings notes seem to be painted with positive language that does not reflect the tone of the discussions. But far more worryingly, the minutes contain no opinions from the CSM. Compared to the language used thus far on other forums by the CSM, these minutes appear to have been neutered.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:12:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 13/01/2011 19:25:42
Originally by: Boxless
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
I know it sucks, but at least you know some people do have information and are working on making sure CCP hears your feedback.


Are the differing views related to how developed Incarna will be upon release, or has there been considerable development in a direction that most players would find unexpected? That is the most pressing question me as a player wants to know as we have been teased with Incarna for over 4 years now.

Not to be a cynic, but how are you going to receive our feedback on information that you know but we are unable to inform us of.

I'm afraid I won't be able to elaborate much on the first question. The fact that we have been teased for a long period of time definitely was discussed, especially in terms of what it means as far as expectations are concerned.

CSM delegates do not live in ivory towers, we read the forums (even though I personally post extremely little), we have discussions with other players throughout the term about things. Not being able to repeat what we were told/shown does not mean we can't listen to what people have to say on a given subject.
Also, even without that, the 9 of us represent different play styles and populations, which in my experience covers the vast majority of the playerbase.


Originally by: mvrck22
Has there been any tangible and meaninful collaboration between the Incarna and CCP's creative vision teams and the CSM? At all?


At various stages in the past year, we have expressed our expectations of what InCarna could/should be and contain, have requested from CCP to tell us what they think it should be and given feedback on what we were shown and not shown.

No matter what naysayers may say, CCP has usually taken our comments very much into account. Sometimes things didn't happen due to priorities differences and scheduling/technical issues. As things heat up for InCarna during the next year I expect more collaboration to take place and the comments we've made to make an impact on decisions made. How much of an impact we've had I'm not sure, we'll see soon...

Originally by: Evelgrivion
The entirety of these meetings notes seem to be painted with positive language that does not reflect the tone of the discussions. But far more worryingly, the minutes contain no opinions from the CSM. Compared to the language used thus far on other forums by the CSM, these minutes appear to have been neutered.


No matter what the contents of the discussion were, the tone has always been positive. One can express disagreement in a polite and constructive manner. The CSM and CCP are two groups of people working towards the same goal with different perspective. And even those CSM members who express outrage in a very verbal manner on other forums express their opinions and sentiments in a much more constructive fashion during meetings. I'm more surprised that those members cannot (prefer not to) express the same verbal restraint and mitigated point of view they exhibit in Iceland on public forums than the fact that the minutes represent the minutes as being held "positively".

I don't mean that we're not ****ed off at things regularly, it happens a lot, but there's only been one shouting match that I can remember since CSM 2 (and another time the room temperature dropping to sub-zero once). If it makes you feel any better, feel free to do a search and replace on "CSM expressed concern with X" with "CSM threatened to emorage quit if X happened".

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:14:00 - [17]
 


Quade Warren
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:16:00 - [18]
 

Wanted to point out a possible reason PvP has declined that I did not see immediately in the meeting notes.

I've been keeping up with some of the Incursion videos and I, like everyone else, has probably noticed that this is not your normal NPC fight. You're fighting against so many ships that even a very pimped out setup would not survive long.

As a result, my corp has been looking into cheap but effective builds that would allow us to engage in the Incursions while not necessarily losing so much isk during our learning process. This is especially due to ganking and pirating during low sec Incursions because, well, let's face it. We're all opportunists in Eve.

That's just my two cents. Saving the cash and stockpiling for regular Incursions, since we don't know their frequency (don't even know where to look for that information) nor how difficult they will be.


Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:16:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
- Option to eliminate nebula backgrounds in the system map and in space (big win for color-blind players):
  • Eve is a world that has a certain aesthetic and the nebulas are an intrinsic part of that experience. CCP will approach this problem as a UI problem, piece by piece. CCP does not believe that it is solved by destroying the immersive elements of the game and its graphics.



So, according to CCP, low-rez backgrounds that clash with the rest of EVE's graphics and interfere with UI are "immersive elements". Who da thunk??

The Bismarckian
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:21:00 - [20]
 

Good read.

"It has gotten to the point of people avoiding fights rather than actively seeking them – perhaps it has come to a point of a Coldwar status."

Cold war, Fleet in Being, whatever you call it people are being more conservative in risking their assets in battle. The risk vs. reward just isn't appealing in most cases. Those that are most active in pvp seem to be players that gain large personal reward from the tears of others, regardless of the virtual payout.

E-tears aren't enough incentive for some people.

Bhattran
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:22:00 - [21]
 

Quote:
Discussion then turned to the issue of botting and RMT, and what could be done to reduce their impact
on the game. As this discussion involved potential countermeasures, it is sealed under NDA.


Yay this and the 'buy plex' dev blog AKA 'raging on' are sure to inspire trust and faith that something is being done, hell there was reference to Unholy rage, that happened like 17 months ago!

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:27:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Aineko Macx on 13/01/2011 19:30:12
Quote:
It was CSM’s estimate that before Tyrannis the income of level 4 missions was around 70 million ISK per hour

That figure seems to be off by a lot.

Quote:
Generally CCP does not mind if players speculate in their investments, but in the PI case CCP’s implementation was flawed as such and players took advantage of that.

And by some convoluted logic CCP thought that punishing players that took advantage of its errors was the right thing to do Rolling Eyes

Quote:
As a response on the criticism that EVE’s economics team did not release reliable and usable results – Dr. Eyjo’s answer was to encourage players to provide comments on the QENs to help the team to refine and hone their methods and analysis.

He must be trolling. After every single QEN I've seen multiple great suggestions on how to improve them posted in the comments. That being said, the QENs have improved recently, starting with the fact that the effect of insurance on the mineral basket price was acknowledged.

I approve of the discussion about the economic downswing, although I personally see a reason in how generally the game got more boring somehow, subjective as this opinion might be.

Quote:
CSM: But what happens when a person with unique knowledge leaves the company? The example most cited by the players is that of the POS code, which is rumored to be “untouchable”.
QA: Some of these stories are perhaps exaggerated.

I'll believe it when POSes and ACL code gets reworked.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: eggtimer smith
A good read. Can't wait for the third installment. I really liked the insight into QA and Carbon groups. Keep up the good work CSM and CCP


I was allowed to Skype in for the QA session, since I couldn't attend the Summit.

QA appears to have an insanely complex job. It was fascinating to learn how QA is integrated into the development and deployment process. This team often gets a lot of undeserved criticism, I think--the Minutes show how complex a job they have and the details in their presentations bear that out even more. They seem very dedicated to ensuring that patches and expansions are as robust as it is humanly possible to make them given what resources they have to work with. So, good on ya, QA.


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:36:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Quote:
As a response to this there was a consensus from the CSM that belt ratting had decreased significantly. The reasons for that are not fully known at this time and will be investigated.


notsureifserious.jpg

Oh dear, not exactly a brain trust we are dealing with Very Happy

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:53:00 - [25]
 

Quote:
Hilmar stated that CCP's philosophy is to start small and see what happens;


Um no your design philosophy is to start small and then run off to do something else.

Quote:
Hilmar stated that he hoped that the messaging for Incarna and its initial release, as well as the longer-term roadmap, would become much clearer by FanFest. The CSM cautioned, however, that this might be too late


Beyond to late im afraid, the concensus I have seen is that its little more than a 4th rate SIMs 3 Xpack without the need to go to the toilet or aa PG version Second Life in space. And given your proven ACTUAL design philosphy of sending half broken crap up the flag pole to see if anyone salutes, well a lot of us realy are not that excited by it.

Quote:
On the first question Dr. Eyjo’s response was that CCP’s hasn’t been efficient in controlling the introductions of sinks and faucets. Those areas need special attention, however it is not a trivial thing to add or remove sinks and faucets.


Pff I love the whole "Faucet/sink" debate

THERE ARE NO SINKS YOU FREAKING CLULESS BRAINDEAD MORONS (yes I am talking to the developers here!)

MMOs have been around for years now. Its been proven in virtualy every MMO Time and Time and Time and Time again. Sinks almost never end up removeing any significan ammount of money from games. what they do is simply add grind to thoes people who dont have as mutch disposable income who want that object or game feature.

This is, in part, because of one painfull reality that mmo developers have to deal with every day. THE PLAYER BASE CANT LOSE OR THEY GO AWAY!

So that means that the "better than average" player will be perpetualy building up a wallet that they will not realy use. heck even the "average" player will build up a big ass wallet.

Compound this with the fact that the Developers WANT plex to replace RMT, that means that the people who are willing to spend isk to get plex must be able to get enough ISK to do so witout it seriously enterupting there "Needed to play the game" income

you ever get the impression that the developement team is permiently working at cross purposes with itself? (shesh)

Iraherag
Posted - 2011.01.13 19:54:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Iraherag on 13/01/2011 19:56:08
Would it be possible to estimate how much time is used for CCP explaining things to the CSM and how much for the CSM explaing things to CCP?

I get the impression 80% of the summit are used by CCP to explain how well things are going and how hard it really is to do them and declaring 50% of that as NDA-material. Somehow that's not how I understood the role of the CSM, but maybe I'm wrong...

QA section is a great example of how generic and bland the information from those summits can be:
Yes, bugs slip through (whowuddathunkit), the real question is "How can obvious bugs slip through?" (eg PI, gate jumping in Dominion). But you don't ask those questions, you prefer to ask for the "most hilarious bug" instead.
One big happy family, eh?

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.01.13 20:07:00 - [27]
 

Quote:
and CCP estimates that the market is functioning as it should be as long as the system is healthy in terms of gameplay (botters, RMT, etc.)

ambigious wording ftw Laughing

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.13 20:08:00 - [28]
 

ok let me clarify my last point.

lets say we have a mmo that we shall call Endlessly Questing. . .*

Lets say that after a while the developers decide that they need a money sink, and they need it badly because they see players who have literaly thousands of gold sitting in there bank accounts doing nothing. In fact to a very real degree "Gold" had become valueless (but mostly for reasons that the developers insisted had nothing to do with "the real issue"**) so they added mounts to the game for rediculously high prices that could not be sold back to npcs.

The net result of this introduction was that suddenly the economy had massive shortage of money at lower levels because everyone was hording to pay for the mount. they ended up adding in a way for the players to "turn in" the mount for money if they decided to upgrade (they had also finaly agreed that haveing "heavy money" was part of the reason why they had people with a shipload of gold stuck in there bank accounts)

* Ok I admit I am actualy refering to what the Developers of the real game EQ actualy did

**Coins had weight. you realy could not carry that mutch money around without becomeing bascialy immobile unless you had a lot of Strenght on your character, therefor most cash transactions could only realy happen in citys at the bank.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.13 20:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Iraherag
Edited by: Iraherag on 13/01/2011 19:56:08
I get the impression 80% of the summit are used by CCP to explain how well things are going and how hard it really is to do them and declaring 50% of that as NDA-material. Somehow that's not how I understood the role of the CSM, but maybe I'm wrong...
?


Your just now realising that the CSM is little more than a private Fanfest?

No Im being perfectly serious here. to be honest I dont have a problem with it being what it is. but its kind of a odd mix of a focus group and fanfair.




Grady Eltoren
Minmatar
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Posted - 2011.01.13 20:16:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: CSM Minutes
Hilmar stated that CCP's philosophy is to start small and see what happens; CCP does not want to over-design Incarna in the early stages, but see how the players use it and respond to that.


Smart!
Also...
Liked part 2 but can't wait for the juicy stuff in part 3. This CSM seems to be doing a great job getting CCP to listen.

In RE: to Micro Transactions - I like the idea of vanity only - as CCP admitted they do not have many ideas I would suggest to the CSM that a push be made to make a System wide survey or at least something at Fanfest to the PLAYERS as what THEY would like to see. Your best ideas will come from there.

ISK sinks would be good. Although I tend to think the reason you see people hoarding is that they are just saving up and playing safe - this doesn't mean they will spend it just that they like to have some in the bank. I for one keep a few extra ships and modules laying around - it is smart to have extra before fighting. HOT DROP I WIN buttons need to change though - as I do see less and less carebears fighting because of that everlooming thing. They don't want to join 0.0 alliance but do want to PVP. They can't do the latter without joining an alliance to counter the hot drop with another hot drop. What ever happened to a good ole' fist fight? ya know?


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