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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 08:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 14/01/2011 20:08:11

EDIT: update in post 22


An idea of a scheduled freight business has been floated on MD before. Maybe it is time RF gets some friendly competition (hi Locin, hi Ave o/)

I am currently brainstorming a project that would provide you traders with regularly scheduled cargo flights among hubs. We already have 1 person (2 pilots) interested in flying routes and we are discussing things like gank risks, insurance, grading pilots, grading clients. (No details are offered here and now, but the way to encounter gank scams is to widen the trip “window”.)

Pilots
I am interested in talking with more pilots. Basically anybody flying a freighter or blockade runner around EVE with room to spare. If you know you fly stuff from Jita to Rens once per week, now you can get paid a fat salary for the return trip. The pilot sets all the terms. Cargo will come to you, not the other way around.

Management
There is need for management if this idea is realised. The public will need an up-to-date schedule that combines the routes of all pilots etc. And that’s just for starters. My own role will just be coordinator.

Contact me if you like the idea and want to be part of the planning phase already.

egola
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.12 08:39:00 - [2]
 

wait did you just mention pre-plan a set route and update that to the PUBLIC? isn't that a huge red-flag for oh mah gawd we should get like 15BS's and shoot it down for the loot+collateral!

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 08:43:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 12/01/2011 08:43:48

Originally by: egola
wait did you just mention pre-plan a set route and update that to the PUBLIC? isn't that a huge red-flag for oh mah gawd we should get like 15BS's and shoot it down for the loot+collateral!
Yes you are right in principle.

However,
1) the name of pilot is unknown - he is known only by his grade / rep
2) as mentioned, the travel window may be wide. You will not have a gate camp in Jita wait for a single ship for 10 hours.

Premium clients will be able to work around a more precise departure time, so you can buy stuff in Jita and sell it in Rens 1 hour later.

egola
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.12 09:04:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Cista2
Edited by: Cista2 on 12/01/2011 08:43:48

Originally by: egola
wait did you just mention pre-plan a set route and update that to the PUBLIC? isn't that a huge red-flag for oh mah gawd we should get like 15BS's and shoot it down for the loot+collateral!
Yes you are right in principle.

However,
1) the name of pilot is unknown - he is known only by his grade / rep
2) as mentioned, the travel window may be wide. You will not have a gate camp in Jita wait for a single ship for 10 hours.

Premium clients will be able to work around a more precise departure time, so you can buy stuff in Jita and sell it in Rens 1 hour later.


what exactly is preventing those premium clients from screwing over your freighters?

also how does the fact that an inprecise service such as this affect service cost? i'm going on a limb and assume it'll be cheaper then RF?

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 10:46:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 15/01/2011 13:42:59
Edited by: Cista2 on 12/01/2011 10:52:52

Originally by: egola

what exactly is preventing those premium clients from screwing over your freighters?
Nothing, that is why they have to be premium. Clients will be graded by an internal evaluation system. The size of the travel window is always set by the pilot who after all has his a** on the line.

Originally by: egola
also how does the fact that an inprecise service such as this affect service cost? i'm going on a limb and assume it'll be cheaper then RF?
That is up to the pilot, he sets his price. However I plan that the first few rides will be free of cost (backed by myself), to attract the first customers and get the business going.

Thanks for your criticism, and you are welcome to join the brainstorm group if you want to influence the project.

Graic Valente
Gallente
Valente Galactic Enterprises
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:22:00 - [6]
 

I remember raising this and everyone was basically, "YOU WILL BE A GANK TARGET!!!" etc. etc.

So good luck.

I'll pop in your channel to see if my runs fill any gaps.


Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 11:35:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Graic Valente
I'll pop in your channel to see if my runs fill any gaps.
That is great news.

MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
Posted - 2011.01.12 16:34:00 - [8]
 

I've got a character that hauls stuff for me. I've often asked around for help finding backhaul to avoid the deadhead return without luck. I've no interest in changing corps, but if there were a way to get backhaul runs without changing corps, that would interest me greatly.

Also Cista2, answer your Eve mail you lazy git!

MDD

Samroski
Games Inc.
Posted - 2011.01.12 17:26:00 - [9]
 

I'm pretty busy in RL atm- thus cannot be part of the planning or management. But I've got 4 freighter alts who basically bum around most of the time. So you can pencil me in as a potential pilot.

If the project takes off, I'll contribute 100m to get it going.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 17:35:00 - [10]
 

Good to see you around guys, I was thinking you might show up Samroski Wink

We already have a number of dedicated pilots, so I can now reveal that a company indeed will be launched with at least some scheduled routes.
You will be contacted ingame.

Still seeking more pilots!

Ave Volta
Perkone
Posted - 2011.01.12 18:00:00 - [11]
 

I think something like this could be successful if the pilots are given a wide enough trip "window" as you say to protect against pilot burnout.

All of the on-demand / express freight services have failed because they have been unable to balance client demand with pilot fatigue. The last thing a freighter pilot wants is to feel like they are working a real life trucking job where they are forced to deliver within an aggressive time frame.

The RF model is so successful because there are no required quotas or schedules and the pilots keep the entire contract reward. This requires a fairly large pool of pilots though.

Good luck, I always welcome competition Smile


SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2011.01.12 18:35:00 - [12]
 

One of the things I was noddling with was a "Space Train!"

In real life trains dictate a lot of trade, those that have train tracks or those cities that get new ones often start expanding. In EVE the effect is already there, kind of. There is highways that we can clearly map by "jump in the last hour" It's pretty obvious a lot of traffic goes though there, which would indicate a lot of freight traffic.

I was considering using my Frieghter/Orca/Transports as like a semi-train type thing. I can login at work, pick up the contract, set auto pilot and head to Rens or whatever, halfway though the day, I pick up contacts at those locations and ship em Jita. Round trip, once or twice a day type thing.

I never really got around to it but I think the idea has merit.

Ave Volta
Perkone
Posted - 2011.01.12 18:46:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: SencneS
I can login at work, pick up the contract, set auto pilot and head to Rens or whatever, halfway though the day, I pick up contacts at those locations and ship em Jita. Round trip, once or twice a day type thing.


This is what I do every day at work, usually a couple rounds trips though. Very nice afk income Smile



Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.12 20:18:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: SencneS
I never really got around to it but I think the idea has merit.
If you are still flying around, you are welcome to try it out with us for a while. You can set your schedule to "Thursday 0800-2000" and have all day to do the round trip.

Durin Sarga
Posted - 2011.01.12 20:42:00 - [15]
 

Cista,

Have you considered a FedEx type approach? Where the pilots haul all 'origin' contracts to a common distribution node. The packages are then sorted to their 'destination' pilots and then shipped to their destinations.

Also, what about a freight conglomerate? We have several freighter, jump freighter, blockade runner pilots who are just itching for some true hauling action, but want to feel like they are accomplishing something for someone, not just hauling for the sake of hauling.

If you had enough pilots, theoretically you could set the schedule from a coordinator standpoint and then pilots who are online at the designated shipment time could provide the hauling. (Again, kind of similar to any mail or freight system in RL)

From working with the pilots in my organization, they seem to want a defined hauling job, where they do the same route, and have cargo waiting for them on either/both ends.

Just some stuff to think about.

Regards,

Durin

Aphex Rufen
Posted - 2011.01.12 22:34:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Durin Sarga
Cista,

Have you considered a FedEx type approach? Where the pilots haul all 'origin' contracts to a common distribution node. The packages are then sorted to their 'destination' pilots and then shipped to their destinations.



that would require so much work/planning, even if we had the contract API, you can't even think about starting a thing like that.

problem is there's no easy way, as of right now, to know in which region a system is.

then, most contracts we do are over 100k. (around 90% I would say) so you would need a lot of other freighter once there to finalyse the contracts.


Durin Sarga
Posted - 2011.01.12 23:14:00 - [17]
 

I guess the thought was to save individual pilots from 60jump round trips. If you pick a central 'freight' system (for example: Dodixie) and then hub your freight out of it.

Jita freighter pilots travel to Dodixie with freight from Jita, going to goodnes knows where. Then once they deliver to Dodixie those same pilot pick up any and all packages bound for Jita. This reduces your overall jumps in your organization, thus reducing risk. More jumps in open space = more risk. By reducing the number of jumps for an individual pilot you reduce their individual risk. On top of this, someone who is tracking cargo may know the planned route for a shipment, but if they don't know which freighter is holding the goods after it goes through the 'hub' system then it further confounds the targeted gank.

You make an excellent point about the logistics though. I'm not entirely sure how a system like this could be achieved, but I still think this poses a better alternative to the individual pilot making a whole bunch of 'long hauls'.

Is it possible to courier within a courier? If so, then all contracts would be couriers to the parent company (Freight-R-Us for illustration purposes). Then Freight-R-Us places courier contracts together, grouping the courier contracts received in a particular location and contracts them to it's constituent hauler corps. You have defined 'drop' systems and defined 'pick-up' systems for those who are interested in your service.

This means if my guys want to sign up as a wing of this operation they can. And they could offer...say... Dodixie to Rens. Now if someone else signs on and they have 3-5 freighters who want to do Jita to Dodixie then we have a working system from Jita to Rens. And all this is managed by the parent corp.

Locin WeEda
Gallente
Red Frog Investments
Posted - 2011.01.12 23:18:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Locin WeEda on 12/01/2011 23:33:25

It is possible to courier within a courier, but only if the courier package does not contain any assembled containers or assembled ships. Unfortunately there is no way to be sure of whether a contract contains such items until after you have accepted the contracts. (you can make educated guesses based on the volume, but they are just that, guesses).

If a courier package contains containers or assembled ships, the only way to transfer it to another pilot is to manually trade it in a station (item exchange won't work either).

Another problem is to match a courier package with a contract, and determining the age of an accepted courier package without seeing the contract. With several contracts of same volume, this is currently not possible (although it may get a little easier with the new contract interface on Sisi, as a find contract is added on the right-click menu on the courier package).


Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.13 14:50:00 - [19]
 

Thanks for the suggestions, but we are not that ambitious.

The beauty of the concept is that as long as we have one pilot and one route, then we are in business.
Originally by: Durin Sarga
.. if my guys want to sign up as a wing of this operation they can. And they could offer...say... Dodixie to Rens.
This is exactly what they can do. They can sign up to do Dodixie to Rens, and others will do other routes.

We already have a number of pilots interested and I am planning towards a startup next Monday.

SetrakDark
DarkCorp Citizens Holdings
DarkCorp Citizens
Posted - 2011.01.13 14:56:00 - [20]
 

Damn it, Cista, stop having fun.

What do you think this is, a game?

:P

good luck

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.13 22:13:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: SetrakDark
Damn it, Cista, stop having fun.

What do you think this is, a game?

:P

good luck
Haha, this is going to be a really entertaining company.
It looks like we are doing well with pilots, and when we hit Sell Forum on Saturday/Sunday probably more pilots will get interested.

Dezolf has joined to help keep this thing running.
I should very much like one more person from MD to become involved in the managing part of this enterprise, there will be a lot to do quite soon. Thank you.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.14 20:05:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 14/01/2011 20:09:34

Update:

Official name: Universal Railways [URAIL]

We already have more than 100 flights lined up for next week, and should expect that more pilots will show up to join.
All flights in the first week will be free of cost for clients, so MD traders can begin to plan to save some isk.

We are hitting Sell Forum tomorrow and start flying Sunday.

Reason that I am bumping here is to advertise again for interested MDers to join, for instance we could use both an accountant type and a communications officer when we take off. Don't hold back, we are having fun in here ;)

Anachronic
Posted - 2011.01.14 20:56:00 - [23]
 

Cista, sent you a mail regarding anything I can do to help out here. I'd love to get in on this and help out with a solid business in the making.

Rykker Bow
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cista2
We already have more than 100 flights lined up for next week, and should expect that more pilots will show up to join.



wow! Nice job Cista. I'm looking forward to reading your post in the sell forums when you go live. When I need my freight moved I'll make sure to give you a call.

Ave Volta
Perkone
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Cista2
We already have more than 100 flights lined up for next week, and should expect that more pilots will show up to join.
All flights in the first week will be free of cost for clients, so MD traders can begin to plan to save some isk.


What are your routes so far? Or is that info still private?


Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:16:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Cista2
We already have more than 100 flights lined up for next week, and should expect that more pilots will show up to join.
All flights in the first week will be free of cost for clients, so MD traders can begin to plan to save some isk.

We are hitting Sell Forum tomorrow and start flying Sunday.



I am definetly interested in your service.

Do you have a limit to the number of contracts per client?

Do you have a Rens >> Jita route ? Amarr >> Jita route?

How many contracts will you be ablle to manage in a day?

Maximum collateral?

Maximum volume?



Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.14 21:34:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Block Ukx
Do you have a limit to the number of contracts per client?

Do you have a Rens >> Jita route ? Amarr >> Jita route?

How many contracts will you be ablle to manage in a day?

Maximum collateral?

Maximum volume?

The company is run for the pilots and by the pilots. We set the framework, they set the terms and the routes. This means that max collateral and volume is individual, prices will be individual as well. It will be clear in the Sell Forum posts, which will serve as a calendar.

There are already routes among many hubs, including Amarr, Jita and Rens.
However each flight means just 1 pilot flying his route so we are of course limited by the relatively few number of pilots.

You can experience that a flight you want to book is already filled to capacity. The pilot will communicate this to you - he may take another round trip or he will recommend RF.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.15 08:21:00 - [28]
 

Sell order forum thread:
Linkage

If you plan on using the service, you can help us by going there.

Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
Posted - 2011.01.15 13:21:00 - [29]
 

Great, your pet tools are posting this junk in S&I now as well Rolling Eyes

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.01.15 13:50:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 15/01/2011 13:50:48

Originally by: Captain Pompous
Great, your pet tools are posting this junk in S&I now as well Rolling Eyes
Pompous darling, I thought I told you to post in Sell Orders forum, that's the one that needs constant bumping Wink


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