open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked Covert base of operations (black-ops Orca)
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.01.11 13:08:00 - [1]
 

Anyone who has flown in covet fleets knows that managing the logistics of it are a nightmare. Even when dragging Blockade Runners along, there seems to be never enough fuel or ammo for any kind of campaign. It would be a real dream if we had a true covert long range base of operations.

So how about a militarized black ops Orca? It would have to be covert jump capable as well as be able to fit the Covert cyno generator. Covert fleets could use it to rearm and refit as well as change or replace covert ships deep in hostile space for extended periods of time.

The highlights would be:

  • The ore hold converted to a fuel bay with no change in size. (50k m3)

  • The cargo hold reduced to 5k

  • Corp hangar capacity reduced to 10k

  • Drone bay removed

  • Slot layout unchanged

  • Able to fit both the covert cyno and covert jump portal.

  • Can jump to a covert cyno with a base range of 5ly

  • Ship maintenance array for covert ships only, with no change in size.


The bonuses would have to be changed of course, but that's what this discussion is for.


Sonya Rayner
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.01.11 14:10:00 - [2]
 

While i generally support the idea, jump range should not be greater than black ops battleships', because that would put them out of portalling business, as they are pretty much useless now as they are. Or increase BO's jump range accordingly. However, it would be more efficient not to allow jump portal on it whatsoever, thus not taking away that role from black ops ships.

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.01.11 18:47:00 - [3]
 

Well Black-Ops still need a range boost (among other boosts) anyway. And this thing would naturally be used for larger covert fleets. Smaller stealth gangs could still use Black-Ops Battleships where employing a long range support vessel would be inappropriate/uneconomical.

There is also the possibility of using it in conjunction with BO-BS to extend your area of operations.

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.01.11 19:08:00 - [4]
 

Interesting concept. It would get rid of Black Ops having to bridge stuff which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing entirely.

I would envision a bonus along a couple of lines:

- Level bonus to corp hangar bay where you would stash the ammo / spare fuel to extend range of all in the gang (+2.5k / level)

Speedy response team giving a bonus to cap recharge allowing one to quickly transit even between systems without stations:

- Level bonus to cap recharge (mainly to allow the ship to more rapidly recharge / jump, +5% reduction / level seems excessive perhaps)
- Level bonus to energy transfer (amount bonus equivalent to Guardian / Oneiros, no range bonus)

Mobile medic:

- Level bonus for armor and hull transfers (repair outside of station, deep in space)
- Shield bonus repping seems unnecessary due to natural recharge
- Same as above, no range bonuses as that is what Logis are for

Mobile command ship:

- Bonuses to command links, I am thinking Skirmish Warfare for the purposes of mobility



Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.01.11 19:36:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Mr Cleann on 11/01/2011 19:36:52
I like that idea. However it should have its own skin. There are too many look a likes out there. Which indicates a lack of imagination or an increase of simplicity. Give the ship its own skin, Perhaps one of the contestant winners of that design a ship contest. The ship should also support a co op cloak. I saw no mention of it unless I over read it. The ore bay should be a fuel bay of equal size. but take the corp hold and cargo hold and combine the the total size since the corp hangers can be access controlled there is no real need for a dedicated cargo hold. Its defenses for offensive weaponry should be moderate to light or be permitted to use drones drones, with a drone bay equal to that of a typhoon or HAC. Bonuses should be related to its purpose. If the same skin is used then the color of the ship should be black with white patches.


Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.11 20:01:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Berikath on 11/01/2011 20:01:34
Originally by: Forumena Altair
Anyone who has flown in covet fleets knows that managing the logistics of it are a nightmare. Even when dragging Blockade Runners along, there seems to be never enough fuel or ammo for any kind of campaign. It would be a real dream if we had a true covert long range base of operations.

So how about a militarized black ops Orca? It would have to be covert jump capable as well as be able to fit the Covert cyno generator. Covert fleets could use it to rearm and refit as well as change or replace covert ships deep in hostile space for extended periods of time.

The highlights would be:

  • The ore hold converted to a fuel bay with no change in size. (50k m3)

  • The cargo hold reduced to 5k

  • Corp hangar capacity reduced to 10k

  • Drone bay removed

  • Slot layout unchanged

  • Able to fit both the covert cyno and covert jump portal.

  • Can jump to a covert cyno with a base range of 5ly

  • Ship maintenance array for covert ships only, with no change in size.


The bonuses would have to be changed of course, but that's what this discussion is for.




... ok.

Question- Orca is an industrial ship. You're talking about completely removing the industrial portion of the industrial ship and turning it into a dedicated mobile base of combat operations.

Isn't there should be a word for this type of ship? Oh yeah.

So you're asking for a black-ops carrier.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.11 20:14:00 - [7]
 

I like the idea, but giving it the Covert Jump Portal pretty much obsoletes the Black Ops itself. Also, I don't like the idea of needing a capital class ship to support a subcapital covert stealth fleet.

Instead, I'd like to see a anchorable logistics structure like a POS, but not having to be anchored at a moon. You could put it out in space at a safe spot. It would be cloaked when not in use, but scannable with probes whenever a ship was inside its bubble. It should have limited power and CPU, so it can't be used as a stealth death star. But you should be able to anchor a hangar array and a ship maintenance bay in it, and some minimal defense outside it.

Only covert ships (Jump Harmonics 2) can enter the stealth POS bubble.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.01.11 20:38:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 11/01/2011 20:38:01
Remove the covert cyno/jump portal, expand the ship maintenance size, add a clone vat bay and you have a really good idea. And yes for steatlh POS!

Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.01.11 20:56:00 - [9]
 

The idea of a covert base ship is a good one, but I'd rather have a new corporation that specializes in those than just dump it into the ORE line of ships. A mining corporation building an infiltration ship makes no sense.

All of the ship corporations (ore, soe, interbus) are based in gallente space so it would be nice to see a new corporation in another area even if the soe is spread around and interbus doesn't really have other ships than the collectables. Or just make it a pirate faction ship.

Oh, and it shouldn't overlap with the black ops as those are underrepresented already. Just give it the ability to do maintenance on covops and carry ammo/fuel/modules. A short-range covert jumpdrive could be considered too since that could boost the lucrativity for taking a blackops with you on a deep space op.

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:18:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Forumena Altair on 11/01/2011 21:33:36
Originally by: Berikath
Edited by: Berikath on 11/01/2011 20:01:34


... ok.

Question- Orca is an industrial ship. You're talking about completely removing the industrial portion of the industrial ship and turning it into a dedicated mobile base of combat operations.

Isn't there should be a word for this type of ship? Oh yeah.


So you're asking for a black-ops carrier.



Well sort of. It would have no drones to speak of so fighters are out of the question. And the tank would only be a fraction of what a "true" carrier is. Classifying it as a carrier just brings all kinds of overpowered images to the discussion which is why I didn't call it that.

And with regards to BO-BS. This ship should be seen as a complement to and not a replacement of that ship class.

BTW I only suggested the Orca hull only as a means of streamlining development. Admittedly though a black paint job on that hull would be pretty cool.

Besides there are companies in RL that will convert a SUV into an APC of sorts, so I am sure there is at least one shipyard in all of New Eden that would see a unique need and use a existing ship to modify and convert to fill that.

(edit for the RP bit)

Meeko Atari
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:33:00 - [11]
 

I like the idea of it being a base of operations, carrying replacement ships modules ammo and fuel.

But it should not be able to bridge any ships, it would obsolete the entire BOps ship line even if it had a very short jump range.

I am for it being able to use the Cov Ops Jump portal, but not for it being able to create one.

Zanzbar
Posted - 2011.01.11 21:59:00 - [12]
 

While the overall concept is cool I agree that the jump portal needs to not be included or at least overhaul the black ops class to fill a slightly differnt role.

Also the idea of a 50,000 m3 fuel bay is crazy, the bay on my archon carrier is only 3,000m3 and it is a much larger ship moving far greater distances thus requiring mor fuel per jump. Such a fuel bay would take away one of the main chalanges of using a jumpdrive which is fuel managment.

Zanzbar
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:03:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Zanzbar on 11/01/2011 22:03:37
Opps double post

Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:16:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Forumena Altair

Well sort of. It would have no drones to speak of so fighters are out of the question. And the tank would only be a fraction of what a "true" carrier is. Classifying it as a carrier just brings all kinds of overpowered images to the discussion which is why I didn't call it that.

And with regards to BO-BS. This ship should be seen as a complement to and not a replacement of that ship class.

BTW I only suggested the Orca hull only as a means of streamlining development. Admittedly though a black paint job on that hull would be pretty cool.

Besides there are companies in RL that will convert a SUV into an APC of sorts, so I am sure there is at least one shipyard in all of New Eden that would see a unique need and use a existing ship to modify and convert to fill that.

(edit for the RP bit)



I could certainly see it being a potential niche to fill, but I'm not so sure about some of the things.

Yes, not having it carry fighters would probably be reasonable, but I think potentially having something like 200 m3 of drone space would be a good idea. That way, the ship could have flight of small, one flight of med, and one flight of large drones. With no bonuses to damage or durability, that'd be... probably enough to fight off rats, but not much more than that.

As to reducing the tank... even going off the price tag for an Orca, a tech2 variant would still be in the neighborhood of... what, 2-3 billion ISK for the hull? With it having no teeth to speak of, having a carrier-sized tank is not unreasonable. Anything less and it'd get... what, 2-volly'd by a flight of fighter-bombers? It should at least survive a minute or two against a single attacker so backup can arrive.

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:46:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Zanzbar
While the overall concept is cool I agree that the jump portal needs to not be included or at least overhaul the black ops class to fill a slightly differnt role.

Also the idea of a 50,000 m3 fuel bay is crazy, the bay on my archon carrier is only 3,000m3 and it is a much larger ship moving far greater distances thus requiring mor fuel per jump. Such a fuel bay would take away one of the main chalanges of using a jumpdrive which is fuel managment.



50k fuel bay may sound crazy at first but I can tell you when you are bridging 20 or more Stealth bombers and half a dozen or recons it goes very very fast. Burning 15k of fuel in a few hours has been done on many occasions. And the large fuel bay is the one of the key points : extended deployment of covert ops fleets.

Yes it is a challenge to manage fuel consumption however, having that much fuel in one ship will make it easiER but not easy for covert fleets.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:33:00 - [16]
 

A much easier way to address that is to un-pre-nerf the fuel consumption of the covert jump portal. It presently uses about 70 times the amount of fuel kg per kg and ly per ly to bridge a given ship, as compared to the Titan jump bridge. Un-pre-nerf the fuel consumption, and there is no need for super-size fuel bays.

russkinnor
Failed Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.13 16:53:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: russkinnor on 13/01/2011 18:48:52
Forumena,

I agree with the logistical nightmare of black ops fleets and before seeing your post also wrote one along the same lines. Found here Russ's Black Ops support craft post

Originally I had thought about giving it the ability to use a covert jump portal but then said no since the Black ops battleships fulfill that role.
I also avoided the idea of giving it logistics type ability with armor/shield transfer bonuses since I envisioned it less of a logistics ship and more of a sub capital support craft.
If anything would be for logistics, it would be in the form of drones/1 or 2 BS size reppers with the limited slot layout. For example, Highs.. Cloak, Covert ops Cyno, maybe a single short range transfer array of some type for in field repairs, maximum of 2 possibly. Longer range isnt really that important since you are jumping in on top of the fleet anyhow or they are jumping in on top of you.
I would say that giving a jump range of farther than standard black ops isnt a good idea since you wouldnt want it outrunning the fleet and people using it as a transport vs. what its actual purpose is. Especially one that can jump to a covert cyno.
I do agree that the Fuel Bay or extra cargo space would have to be very large, being a portal jockey myself... its ridiculous how much fuel the portal drinks to send ships through.

I encourage everyone to keep one or both of the posts alive if this idea is something you want to see in the game. Hopefully the ideas will turn into something...

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:20:00 - [18]
 

i like the idea, would encourage larger scale black ops fleets without the massive pain of dragging multiple transports around. I also agree that it should not be able to portal anything, just be able to use the portals generated by the BO battleships, and i also like the idea of it working as a mobile resupply and repair point with the repper bonuses.

Dark Assassin15
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2011.01.13 17:31:00 - [19]
 

i support this IdeaideaIdea %100, mobile comand center would be epic.
moar sub caps plox.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.13 21:38:00 - [20]
 

Hades - Amarr Black Ops Carrier (T2 Archon)

Notable Skill Requirement: Amarr Carrier V, Black Ops V, Covert Capital Command Ships I

Amarr Carrier Skill Bonus:

5% Armor Resistances per level.
+1 Fighter or Drone deployed per level.

Covert Capital Command Ships Skill Bonus:

10% Reduction in Covert Cloaking Bubble fuel use per level.
10% Reduction in Anchoring and Unanchoring time per level.

Role Bonus:

200% Fighter Control range
-99% CPU need for Warfare Links
-95% Mass Applied for Covert Jump Portals
-99% CPU need for Covert Cloaking Bubble Generator

The Hades must be anchored within 100 km of any Moon, Planet, or Star to deploy the Covert Cloaking Bubble. The Bubble requires fuel to remain operational. The Hades cannot support a pilot's pod while anchored (pilot must eject before anchoring). The Hades cannot be targeted while Covert Bubble is active. The Lightwave Distortion Rectifier Array is required to disable the Bubble aggressively. Only covert cloakable ships can enter the Bubble and use the Hades' Ship Maintenance Bay, Corporate Hangar, or access the Fuel Bay (Fuel cannot be removed from Fuel Bay once it is added except by the Hades' owner). Black Ops BSes are exempt from Covert Cloak requirement. Anchored Hades is not boardable until the owner unanchors it.

The Bubble has no hp value, unlike a POS Shield. It is either on or off.

EdTeach
Posted - 2011.01.14 04:37:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: EdTeach on 14/01/2011 04:45:53
I like the idea of a Militarised Orca more than a T2 Carrier design for Black Ops support.


Ship Bonus ... Covert ops cloak and Covert cyno... Reduction in fuel need for bridging ship through Black Ops Portal per level.


Role Bonus .. Covert Gang Links and can operate up to 3 Links... no target delay after decloak




Covert Ops Cloak

Covert Cyno(but not portal)

Covert Gang Links(can operate normal Gang Links while cloaked, but must be on-grid instead of in-system)

4 highs, so 2 gangs with cloak and cyno or a repper or two, or 3 gangs with cloak

approx. 200K ehp shield tank with T2-attainable mid/high 70's omni resists

200m3 drone bay

40k fuel bay

10k cargo bay

20k corp bay

Covert ops ship bay as stated in OP.

-----

No need for rep bonuses, as Stealth Bombers either live ... or they don't. If one does manage to escape just scorched a bit then any medium repper will do. They're Frigates. Use a Prowler's 2nd high slot for repping.

-----

No need for any range anything. It jumps just like a Stealh Bomber or other covert ops ship.

-----





Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.14 16:09:00 - [22]
 

Except that a militarised Orca makes no sense.

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.01.14 18:17:00 - [23]
 

So far most folks don't think it should have a Covert Portal and I am starting to agree with them. And upon thinking about it more, if this thing is jump capable whats to prevent it from becoming the ultimate low/nullsec hauler. And if it has to go gate to gate the pathetic align times might make it more trouble than its worth.

Russkinnor,

I hadn't seen your post till you mentioned it and that idea might work better in light of the potential of this one being an unreachable hauler.

russkinnor
Failed Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.01.15 04:43:00 - [24]
 

Forumena,

Hey no problem, I think all of the ideas have merit and its nice that its more than just me interested in something like this. Im hoping we can keep these threads alive long enough for other people to get involved in it as well as a CCP responder or two.

Black ops have alot of potential already but some type of support craft would make those fleets more viable for long range operations behind lengthy cyno jammed systems/regions.

Lets keep the brain storming going.


Okie Wren
Posted - 2011.01.15 05:46:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Except that a militarised Orca makes no sense.


And a militarised cloaky Badger II does?

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.15 05:56:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Okie Wren
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Except that a militarised Orca makes no sense.


And a militarised cloaky Badger II does?


It is no more militarized than Hulk is.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only