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Killitt
Posted - 2011.01.09 20:04:00 - [61]
 

It's already been said that at the White Wolf fan fest ..when asked about perma death... the devs smiled.

This is going to be an adults game....I think perma death is highly likely.

Madame Gorgeous
Posted - 2011.01.09 21:19:00 - [62]
 

So far there has been alot of talk of the camarilla clans. Since I'm just familiar with the cardgame VtES I'm wondering if there is any room for the sabbat in the ruleset.

I mean camarilla in all it's glory but don't you think their traditions and elysiums and stuff are abit too.. civil?

Comrade Tsukae
Posted - 2011.01.09 22:17:00 - [63]
 

Love WOD and glad they chose VtM over VtR(though I like this game too). I will not go near the game if it lacks permadeath. I can in no way see any of the game working properly with the setting unless their is some real permadeath.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.01.10 01:01:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 10/01/2011 01:06:50
Originally by: Comrade Tsukae
I will not go near the game if it lacks permadeath.


Don't take this as criticism of you because I don't mean it that way but... people like you are a tiny minority. The vast MMO audience at large won't even go near a game with permadeath. I love the setting and I wouldn't waste my time with a free trial.

Literally the only way another player can "permadeath" you in Eve is to hack your account and reprocess your main. Yet look how much of Eve's population stays in high sec just to avoid a loss of implants and ships, let alone a character. And we're supposed to be infamous and hard core. If Eve implemented permadeath tomorrow it would have a drastically smaller player base than it has now, which is already a niche.

Can you imagine a dedicated group of griefers (goons Very Happy ) set loose in a permadeath environment? And what would happen if you lagged out and died? In a small group setting with a dedicated gamemaster, permadeath can work. On an MMO, it just can't function.

PTang
Posted - 2011.01.10 01:17:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: PTang on 10/01/2011 01:19:23
jada, you are not the target playerbase.

Whitewolf allready has a loyal following of about 3 million players (number of books sold, if even 10% of them were to play WoD it would be a crazy amount of income for CCP.

Those 3 million people have been playing a game with permi-death for over 10 years, and enjoying it just fine, what would change in video game form?

edit: I read the rest of your post *blush* you're right lag and not having a game master would be hard to balance, I still wouldn't write it off yet. Yo wouldn't lose experience or money if you died anyways, just like in WoD now, your experience is tied to the player not the character,

Meaning ganking people might not be profitable as it take an amount of xp to make a throw away character. I think it's possible but it would require whitewolf to think WAY out side the box.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.01.10 01:29:00 - [66]
 

Part of me almost hopes it has permadeath because between Eve, The Old Republic and hopefully (ONE DAY!) The Secret World I really don't know how I'd have time for it.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.10 01:46:00 - [67]
 

I don't know anything about the IP, but I do know about CCP products and CCP marketing.

CCP is a company that seems to revel in making niche products. I don't doubt them making the more niche choice for a second.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.01.10 07:49:00 - [68]
 

How exactly would permadeath work in a game, I mean I know what it is from Diablo 2 but how would it work in lets say EVE for example?

Comrade Tsukae
Posted - 2011.01.10 08:00:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Jada Maroo
Edited by: Jada Maroo on 10/01/2011 01:06:50
Originally by: Comrade Tsukae
I will not go near the game if it lacks permadeath.


Don't take this as criticism of you because I don't mean it that way but... people like you are a tiny minority. The vast MMO audience at large won't even go near a game with permadeath. I love the setting and I wouldn't waste my time with a free trial.

Literally the only way another player can "permadeath" you in Eve is to hack your account and reprocess your main. Yet look how much of Eve's population stays in high sec just to avoid a loss of implants and ships, let alone a character. And we're supposed to be infamous and hard core. If Eve implemented permadeath tomorrow it would have a drastically smaller player base than it has now, which is already a niche.

Can you imagine a dedicated group of griefers (goons Very Happy ) set loose in a permadeath environment? And what would happen if you lagged out and died? In a small group setting with a dedicated gamemaster, permadeath can work. On an MMO, it just can't function.

I understand I might be a minority, but it is the way I feel. Besides, I think this is the type of game permadeath would work well in. It is socially focused as opposed to combat focused. Yeah, there will be fighting, but that does not mean it will always be to the death or even happen that frequently. Oh, and I did not take your response as a criticism of me. We all got our preferences. Smile

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2011.01.10 08:02:00 - [70]
 

Well, if you get to keep your xp, or just experience a slight loss, then it would be like rerolling a character, but with the penalty, at least that is what I surmise.

I would like to think they would include the Sabbat, Black Spiral Dancers, and the Nephandi. They probably won't though.

And not having permadeath isn't going to keep the GOONS out. Players are going to have to deal with them regardless of mechanics.

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.01.10 08:44:00 - [71]
 

I know how permadeath can work in any mainstream MMORPG, but that consultation is not free.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.10 08:54:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
I know how permadeath can work in any mainstream MMORPG, but that consultation is not free.

Do you take naturals, like goats?

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2011.01.10 10:36:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
I just want Thaumaturgy to not suck.

Amen brotha

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.01.10 11:00:00 - [74]
 

Well, I guess I learned today that my character here, 'Jowen', is my 'Coffee Shop' character.

I often end up spending more time chatting than anything else when he is logged on. I have long recognized that sometimes I like spending my night with having EVE as nothing more than "a chat channel with a fancy interface", I just never knew it had a name. In fact, I often miss this feature when playing other MMO's.

Looks good that CCP is perfectly aware of this game aspect and plan to improve on it. Guess you could say Incarna is a step on this road too.

Kylira Ulfrinn
Blackstaff Logistics
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:08:00 - [75]
 

Are we forced to play some poncy camarilla vamp or will the sabbat be an option?

Tzimisce > twilight

Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:20:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Kylira Ulfrinn
Are we forced to play some poncy camarilla vamp or will the sabbat be an option?

Tzimisce > twilight


They will need NPC badguys, I'm guessing sabbat will fill that role, or at least be one of the ones filling that role.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.10 12:48:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 10/01/2011 12:53:34
Originally by: PTang
Yo wouldn't lose experience or money if you died anyways, just like in WoD now, your experience is tied to the player not the character,

Meaning ganking people might not be profitable as it take an amount of xp to make a throw away character. I think it's possible but it would require whitewolf to think WAY out side the box.


With my game master (PnP) if we die we will get most of our experience back, but not the contacts and status we had in the city and in our clan.

Even if that wasn't an issue, "replacing" one of the characters in the gaming group once in the year (because the character die, become implayable for some reason or the player leave) is very different from each of them being killed an average of once a month by a mob of just rolled characters.

That is a serious risk in a MMORPG. On the other side of the coin, WoD without perma-death would be another game.

Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium
Well, if you get to keep your xp, or just experience a slight loss, then it would be like rerolling a character, but with the penalty, at least that is what I surmise.



How many times you would reroll your character before leaving?




Forum Guy
Posted - 2011.01.10 13:20:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

WoD without perma-death would be another game.




Imagine playing a game like WoW with perma-death where all servers were PvP. You would be lucky to get to level 10. A level 85 if there was such a thing under those conditions would be rare and could pretty much keep the rest of the population from playing effectively.

I just think perma-death does not add much incentive to stay alive as you should not need any incentive to do that. Added incentive just means you don't trust yourself to play properly.

All perma-death will do is give the real griefers a field day especially if they get organised. I certainly would not waste my time on a game that has perma-death.

Also a lot of players that play MMOs are solo players. The reason they play MMOs is because the AI systems of games become quickly predictable and other people are the best way to add real unpredictability.

Solo players just would not survive in a perma-death environment which means you are already restricting your potential player base numbers.


Killitt
Posted - 2011.01.11 03:33:00 - [79]
 

Remember .... this is ccp. I seriously doubt there will be levels of any sort. Perma death will make the game much more imersive and force politics far more.... sure in a game like wow perma death would never work ..... but this won't be wow it will be world of darkness.


I do agree with o.p however. There should be a forum up for wod. It would probably even start a pre coffee shop CCP wants.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.01.11 04:00:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
All perma-death will do is give the real griefers a field day especially if they get organised. I certainly would not waste my time on a game that has perma-death.

...

Solo players just would not survive in a perma-death environment which means you are already restricting your potential player base numbers.




I'm torn between not wanting permadeath so that I can actually try out World of Darkness and wanting permadeath since I know it'll mean very few players, it will fail, and they can refocus on Eve.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.01.11 04:01:00 - [81]
 

As long as theres no superweapons, like elite vampires that one shot everything and mechanics that favour skill rather than numbers.

If the death mechanics are similiar to eve I dont think people would mind, but if its like wow, lol yeh then you may as well stop making the game.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.01.11 04:03:00 - [82]
 

just please, oh please, don't make us wait to skill up. Make it so that we play to skill up, or something like it.

I'm so bored waiting for cov. ops to train up...

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.11 05:50:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Selinate
just please, oh please, don't make us wait to skill up. Make it so that we play to skill up, or something like it.

I'm so bored waiting for cov. ops to train up...

You are not BS V material...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.01.11 07:24:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Forum Guy
Imagine playing a game like WoW with perma-death where all servers were PvP. You would be lucky to get to level 10. A level 85 if there was such a thing under those conditions would be rare and could pretty much keep the rest of the population from playing effectively.
And that's a good explanation why games such as WoW are fundamentally flawed.]

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.11 07:38:00 - [85]
 

Perma death will work if:
1) it is extremely rare
2) require a meaningful effort and can't be done simply for lulz

As achieving that in a MMORPG is very hard as building "throw away" characters generally is easy it will be very hard to find a acceptable balance.

But a WoD game where the same guy constantly return from the grave and there is no risk of permanent loss is way different from the original game.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.01.11 08:09:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Tres Farmer on 11/01/2011 08:09:42
Hm.. with some replacing there..
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Perma death Titans will work if:
1) it is extremely rare
2) require a meaningful effort and can't be done simply for lulz

As achieving that in a MMORPG is very hard as building "throw away" characters Titans generally is easy it will be very hard to find an acceptable balance.
*snip*

Looks about right to me. CCP should be the most qualified for this task if you ask me. They at least have an idea what they try to achieve there.. Twisted Evil

1600 RT
Posted - 2011.01.11 10:30:00 - [87]
 

1st i never played WOD
but
imho permadead in a mmo is possible as long it doesnt take you 6month to get to a point (char skill/exp) where you are competitive with the others.
if the game its made in a way where players skills matter alot more than the character skills and these are not hard to get like some base skills + a couple of days to be competitive then permadeath could be possible.

if the character evolution is similar to eve whee you can skill for years to be able to do something and you can losse it all with a single death i doubt someone would risk that much Very Happy

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.01.11 11:09:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 11/01/2011 08:09:42
Hm.. with some replacing there..
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Perma death Titans will work if:
1) it is extremely rare
2) require a meaningful effort and can't be done simply for lulz

As achieving that in a MMORPG is very hard as building "throw away" characters Titans generally is easy it will be very hard to find an acceptable balance.
*snip*

Looks about right to me. CCP should be the most qualified for this task if you ask me. They at least have an idea what they try to achieve there.. Twisted Evil


character is not only power. power loss, yes. perma-death, not likely. i have no doubt CCP will make it worthwhile to run on edge, but a lot points to wide appeal.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.01.11 11:48:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: 1600 RT
1st i never played WOD
but
imho permadead in a mmo is possible as long it doesnt take you 6month to get to a point (char skill/exp) where you are competitive with the others.
if the game its made in a way where players skills matter alot more than the character skills and these are not hard to get like some base skills + a couple of days to be competitive then permadeath could be possible.

if the character evolution is similar to eve whee you can skill for years to be able to do something and you can losse it all with a single death i doubt someone would risk that much Very Happy
Mortal online did it right on that department since the SP ceiling there is just 1000.

M'ktakh
Posted - 2011.01.11 11:56:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Mortal online did it right on that department since the SP ceiling there is just 1000.


Very good idea. WoD is much more about social interaction, manipulation and power plays, and not third-gen munchkining (insert "What Moon?" joke here).

The players should be neonates, newborn, fledling little creeps just coming to terms with their newfound exsistance and slowly moving up the rank ladder of the Camarilla (methinks its going to be Camarilla in base game, then sabbath/neutrals, then other WoD things). Your own supernatural powers ought to be quite weak.

OTOH: how would you model the economy of WoD? We cant really set up blood farms above the sustainable level, or one would get whacked by the Sheriff.


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