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blankseplocked [Proposal] Rebalancing of Gallente Ships
 
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Author Topic

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.17 16:20:00 - [61]
 

bump

Professor Screweyes
Sebiestor Tribe

Posted - 2011.01.17 20:57:00 - [62]
 


Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis

Posted - 2011.01.18 19:48:00 - [63]
 

You know what's bad? When you are about to get to optimal and some ships suddenly blocks your way and bumps you 15km off target. Then you have to basically start all over again. Just peachy.

Railguns are just plain bad. An absolute waste.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.18 21:17:00 - [64]
 

Gallente ships don't need to be the fastest, they just need to be fast enough so that a Gallente ship fitting two or three overdrive injectors can eventually catch a Minmatar ship fitting two nanofibers of equivalent size. Yeah the stabber and vaga won't be caught (they have bonuses to speed), but an three overdrive injector fitted Myrm should be able to catch a two nanofiber fitted Hurricane. As it is right now, no amount of additional speed fitting mods will allow a Myrm (or Brutix) to catch a Hurricane (or Cyclone) with two nanofibers.

Next, the fiting requirements of either Gallente weapons need to be decreased or the PG/CPU of Gallente ships need to be increased so that some fitting slots can be freed up.


Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.19 00:17:00 - [65]
 

Actually I'll go so far as to say I want Gallente ships to be the fastest. Ideally we'd have a situation where the Gallente ships are the fastest, but Minmatar are almost as fast, while being much more agile.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.19 02:12:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Gallente ships don't need to be the fastest, they just need to be fast enough so that a Gallente ship fitting two or three overdrive injectors can eventually catch a Minmatar ship fitting two nanofibers of equivalent size.



You can catch them pretty easy by overheating a cycle. Without fitting speed mods that is.

The way overheating mechanics and overview updates are right now, it is way easier to get in range than to maintain range.

Zephris
Posted - 2011.01.19 14:43:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Zephris on 19/01/2011 14:44:57
Edited by: Zephris on 19/01/2011 14:43:06
I think it's better to balance Hybrids before deciding what kind of balancing Gallente needs.

IMO fixing hybrid and change all armor repair bonus to top velocity bonus would fix it.

Natasha Hec
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2011.01.19 15:18:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Actually I'll go so far as to say I want Gallente ships to be the fastest. Ideally we'd have a situation where the Gallente ships are the fastest, but Minmatar are almost as fast, while being much more agile.


This would make minmatar worse not gallente better, if gallente could reliably catch minmatar ships with there current stats minmatar would become useless

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.01.19 15:24:00 - [69]
 

sported

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.19 15:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Natasha Hec
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Actually I'll go so far as to say I want Gallente ships to be the fastest. Ideally we'd have a situation where the Gallente ships are the fastest, but Minmatar are almost as fast, while being much more agile.


This would make minmatar worse not gallente better, if gallente could reliably catch minmatar ships with there current stats minmatar would become useless


Not really. The performance of Minnie ships would be unchanged vs. the other racial ships. You would just see different fits. You'd see a lot more armor Hurricanes rather than these bastardized shield ones.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.01.19 16:24:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Natasha Hec

This would make minmatar worse not gallente better, if gallente could reliably catch minmatar ships with there current stats minmatar would become useless

They couldn't neut out the Gallente ships with their two high utility slots?

Or they couldn't one shot ships with their massive artillery alpha?

They couldn't fit a web or two and kite the Gallente ship with their longer range weapons?

Or they find some other way to fit their ship with the large PG and CPU available (along with the easiest fitting requirements of any short range turret by far)?

The entire problem right now is that Minmatar ships are better at the Gallente niche than Gallente ships. 1) Their hulls are better, and 2) Autocannons > Blasters (easier to fit - don't need fitting mods, selectable damage, no cap usage, better range, yada, yada, yada).

Please CCP do something!


Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.19 17:50:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

Not really. The performance of Minnie ships would be unchanged vs. the other racial ships. You would just see different fits. You'd see a lot more armor Hurricanes rather than these bastardized shield ones.


No you wouldnt see any armor Hurricanes, because they would be outperformed by every other armor battlecruiser by a huge margin.

Shield fits are being used because they allow them to fill the role the ships are supposed to fill, which requires them to have room for 4-5 weapon upgrades.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.19 18:22:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Julius Foederatus on 19/01/2011 18:24:00
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Julius Foederatus

Not really. The performance of Minnie ships would be unchanged vs. the other racial ships. You would just see different fits. You'd see a lot more armor Hurricanes rather than these bastardized shield ones.


No you wouldnt see any armor Hurricanes, because they would be outperformed by every other armor battlecruiser by a huge margin.

Shield fits are being used because they allow them to fill the role the ships are supposed to fill, which requires them to have room for 4-5 weapon upgrades.


That's a completely ridiculous assertion on its face. You're talking about a system that can get 70k ehp, goes over 1km/s with 3 trimarks (that's currently, imagine if we changed the trimark penalty), has plenty of room for EWAR, does over 700 dps, has no cap issues with the weapons, gets selectable damage types, and can still project dps to about 20-25km. Compare that with a Harbinger and you've got a ship that's faster, meaner, has better tracking, and has much better armor resists to the type of damage the Harb is going to be doing. Not to mention you can lose a little dps and gain the use of two medium neuts. And Gallente BCs stack up even less favorably against it.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.19 19:18:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/01/2011 19:39:24

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
You're talking about a system that can get 70k ehp, goes over 1km/s with 3 trimarks (that's currently, imagine if we changed the trimark penalty), has plenty of room for EWAR, does over 700 dps, has no cap issues with the weapons, gets selectable damage types, and can still project dps to about 20-25km.


Show me the armor Hurricane that has 70k ehp, does 700 dps and projects this damage to 25km please. You are just cherry-picking stats from shield and armor fits and claim they all apply to the armor fit.

Just to get a bit of reality in here, the 70k ehp armor cane does a bit over 600 dps at point blank (same for harbinger), about 500 at 7km (compared to still over 600 for harbinger) 250 dps non-selectable damage at 20km (compared to 520dps harbinger). That is a harbinger with FMPs btw, if we drop the medium neut in favor of a mixed HPL/FMP rack, its even more skewed.

In other words, there is a reason nobody flies armor canes these days, the Harbinger does that job just a whole lot better.

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.20 01:04:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/01/2011 19:39:24

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
You're talking about a system that can get 70k ehp, goes over 1km/s with 3 trimarks (that's currently, imagine if we changed the trimark penalty), has plenty of room for EWAR, does over 700 dps, has no cap issues with the weapons, gets selectable damage types, and can still project dps to about 20-25km.


Show me the armor Hurricane that has 70k ehp, does 700 dps and projects this damage to 25km please. You are just cherry-picking stats from shield and armor fits and claim they all apply to the armor fit.

Just to get a bit of reality in here, the 70k ehp armor cane does a bit over 600 dps at point blank (same for harbinger), about 500 at 7km (compared to still over 600 for harbinger) 250 dps non-selectable damage at 20km (compared to 520dps harbinger). That is a harbinger with FMPs btw, if we drop the medium neut in favor of a mixed HPL/FMP rack, its even more skewed.

In other words, there is a reason nobody flies armor canes these days, the Harbinger does that job just a whole lot better.


Nowhere did I say that it could do all those things at once. But then again, neither can a Harbinger. The point is that you have tremendous versatility in an armor cane, and the tank and dps numbers correspond accordingly with a Harbinger, with the only difference being the weapon systems. What you neglect to mention is that the Harbinger lacks the tracking to actually apply that dps, except at the very tip of its optimal, and you make it sound like the non selectable dps is the only one you can apply at 20km. The Harbinger has no defense against neuting, which only mildly inconveniences a hurricane that's already in its optimal. I also noticed you didn't mention anything about natural resists, barely mentioned the selectable damage types, and the raw speed difference between the two.

And if we're going to inject a little reality into this, how about we be real about why we don't see armor Hurricanes: it's because the general trend is towards mobility and logistics, which means shield tanking and scimitars. A scimi isn't going to do **** for an armor cane. If you're going to make disingenuous points, do it in some other thread.

DarkAegix
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.20 01:14:00 - [76]
 

In the CSM minutes CCP said that they don't want to balance Gallente/hybrids because no one uses them, and so it isn't an issue.
They also want to keep the racial stereotypes such as "Minmatar being the fastest".
ugh

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.01.20 02:42:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 20/01/2011 02:51:44

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
What you neglect to mention is that the Harbinger lacks the tracking to actually apply that dps, except at the very tip of its optimal, and you make it sound like the non selectable dps is the only one you can apply at 20km.


You seem to underestimate medium pulse tracking quite a bit, they hit just fine especially that the things getting closer than 10km are gonne be webbed.

And no, you dont do anything with faction shortrange at 20km with your armor cane.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

The Harbinger has no defense against neuting, which only mildly inconveniences a hurricane that's already in its optimal.



Harbingers use cap injectors. Those work wonders against neuts.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

I also noticed you didn't mention anything about natural resists, barely mentioned the selectable damage types, and the raw speed difference between the two.


I also didnt mention instant ammo switching between longrange and shortrange, or the fact that you dont know if you are gonna shoot a shield or armor tanker. Its kinda funny loading fusion just to find out you are shooting at shields, one of the main reasons you'll default to phased plasma 90% of the time when not using barrage.

Given shields are so popular on battlecruisers lately, I dont even understand why you'd bring up resists unless you want to back up my argument.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

A scimi isn't going to do **** for an armor cane.


I think the general idea is to use the guardian (aka best logi in game) when running armor gangs. Doesnt change the fact that the cane is a subpar choice in armor gangs.


Miss Nevermiss
Posted - 2011.01.20 03:27:00 - [78]
 

Suported

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.20 04:30:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 19/01/2011 19:39:24

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
You're talking about a system that can get 70k ehp, goes over 1km/s with 3 trimarks (that's currently, imagine if we changed the trimark penalty), has plenty of room for EWAR, does over 700 dps, has no cap issues with the weapons, gets selectable damage types, and can still project dps to about 20-25km.


Show me the armor Hurricane that has 70k ehp, does 700 dps and projects this damage to 25km please. You are just cherry-picking stats from shield and armor fits and claim they all apply to the armor fit.

Just to get a bit of reality in here, the 70k ehp armor cane does a bit over 600 dps at point blank (same for harbinger), about 500 at 7km (compared to still over 600 for harbinger) 250 dps non-selectable damage at 20km (compared to 520dps harbinger). That is a harbinger with FMPs btw, if we drop the medium neut in favor of a mixed HPL/FMP rack, its even more skewed.

In other words, there is a reason nobody flies armor canes these days, the Harbinger does that job just a whole lot better.


Plug in a Low Grade Slave Set Alpha-through-Epsilon, and additional implants: Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' CY-2, 'Gunslinger' AX-2, 'Gunslinger' MX-2, Inherent Implants 'Lancer' G2-Delta, and Armored Warfare Mind link; then fleet up, and FC/WC/SC with this fit, and tell me it doesn't meet more than half those expectations. Kick in a Synth Drop Booster for fun; with no penalties.

[Hurricane, Armored Warfare Neut Hurricane]
Khanid Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II

Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
10MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I


Warrior II x4
Valkyrie II x1

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.20 04:53:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 20/01/2011 02:51:44

Originally by: Julius Foederatus
What you neglect to mention is that the Harbinger lacks the tracking to actually apply that dps, except at the very tip of its optimal, and you make it sound like the non selectable dps is the only one you can apply at 20km.


You seem to underestimate medium pulse tracking quite a bit, they hit just fine especially that the things getting closer than 10km are gonne be webbed.

And no, you dont do anything with faction shortrange at 20km with your armor cane.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

The Harbinger has no defense against neuting, which only mildly inconveniences a hurricane that's already in its optimal.



Harbingers use cap injectors. Those work wonders against neuts.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

I also noticed you didn't mention anything about natural resists, barely mentioned the selectable damage types, and the raw speed difference between the two.


I also didnt mention instant ammo switching between longrange and shortrange, or the fact that you dont know if you are gonna shoot a shield or armor tanker. Its kinda funny loading fusion just to find out you are shooting at shields, one of the main reasons you'll default to phased plasma 90% of the time when not using barrage.

Given shields are so popular on battlecruisers lately, I dont even understand why you'd bring up resists unless you want to back up my argument.

Originally by: Julius Foederatus

A scimi isn't going to do **** for an armor cane.


I think the general idea is to use the guardian (aka best logi in game) when running armor gangs. Doesnt change the fact that the cane is a subpar choice in armor gangs.




You were talking about comparing armor BCs. I think resists are a huge factor, especially base resists. Who the hell is talking about using faction shortrange at 20km. No **** you don't use it, you use barrage, but the point is that you can switch, the same way you switch between scorch and multifreq. Is it as fast a switch as a Harb? Of course not, but that doesn't mean that you can't use it.

All your saying with the tracking and web comment is that the harb won't suffer as much in web range. Guess what, the Harb does less dps, so at that range it's still going to get ****ed over.

And lastly, the scimi comment was on the rise of shield bcs, and why you don't see armor canes over shield canes. I see plenty of armor canes in armor fleets, and frankly, even if the dps is marginally less because of falloff, the cane can control range much better than the Harbinger.

All of this just highlights the point that the cane is hardly helpless, armor tanked or no, and saying that a Gallente speed buff is going to spell the death of Minmatar ships is just plain wrong. It's a wrong conclusion, based on wrong information.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra

Posted - 2011.01.20 05:21:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Cassus Temon on 20/01/2011 05:47:24
I tend to agree with the focus on main platforms; but, also think there is need for a hybrid rebalance. Range boost to Optimal would be good for a start.

1.) No comment really.. I'm not really familiar with how functional RSD's are; though, I suspect you are mostly correct about this one.

2.) This can be worked around, to some extent; such as not fitting Trimarks, and moving some DPS to Rigs, instead of using a Weapon upgrade or two. This will allow for a resistance boost with Energized membranes or DCII, or something. Alternatively, you can fit plate; with agility penalties. I tend to agree, but think the rebalance is elsewhere.

3.) Like here. Boost the speed on Gallente ships, to equal or exceed that of Minmatar ships. We all know the main issue with Gallente ships and Hybrids; is sustainable and achievable DPS. Sure, it works great in controlled and predictable PvE environments. It does not work well in PvP, because you just can't get in Range to use them. Switch to rails, and suffer a significant loss in DPS; or become vulnerable, to gain speed and agility. In principal, that doesn't sound so bad, and follows fitting logi; the reality, is that it incapacitates the ship further, and makes it ineffective and vulnerable.

Rig's create penalize, and stacking penalizes. Trying to improve something that is poor to begin with; reduces any chance of success you might have. 50% of nothing; is still nothing.

Upgrading speed would be a good thing; and it would go a long way to improving Gallente ships effectiveness.

4.) ..or decrease the PG requirements for Hybrids; alternatively, do both to a lesser extent. Gallente ships do suffer on Powergrid, as I recall; can't imagine trying to fit that Hurricane fit up there, on a Brutix. Speaking of which, I might add regarding that; you need to overheat everything, for effect.

Yep.. checked, and it's not even close. It's not a Myrmi to properly compare, but it doesn't even come close to fitting; as it maxes PG shortly after mounting the Hybrids, and doesn't have the fitting room. It would get very nice Armor tank with Trimarks, though; so you could modify the fit for effect, though you'd lose speed. And so, we're back to that. Nobody, is going to close with a Brutix and take it's DPS; if they are aware they can sit off 10km, and take 0 DPS, or lower DPS. Move a little further out, as he swaps ammo, (you have 10 seconds); and the next lower DPS ammo won't touch you either. Who was it that mentioned almost instantly swapping out ammo, anyway?

5.) I can't really say much about the Repper's; save, I noticed they are hard to fit and provide capacitor for. Generally not very practical. Massive PG req. and lower rep per equal duration; though, at slightly less cost to capacitor. Not so much CPU cost. It's hard to be really specific, about the balance there; because the fitting requirements are different per ship, and faction.

/Supported.

edit:

The fact is, everything is really well balanced; which makes it hard to see problems, on the surface. Once you enter gameplay, however; things become more apparent.

Warfare is about exploiting an enemies weaknesses; while attempting to limit your own weaknesses.

When a nation fields and army, and equips them to face the battle ahead; they generally make an effort to gather intelligence, to better understand enemy tactics and capabilities. All nations will make an effort to improve their weapons of war, and increase their tactical advantage; whether actively engaged, preparing for war, or in peacetime. Research, testing, and development; is done on an ongoing basis. Easily defeated technologies and tactics, that were once powerful; are discarded, and replaced with technology and tactics that are proven more effective.

A ship, module, or weapon can be redesigned; and made more effective against enemy tactics. If something proves ineffective; it's bound to be changed, or discarded before the next engagement.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.20 09:06:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Korg Leaf on 20/01/2011 09:27:14
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 20/01/2011 09:12:49
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Edited by: Julius Foederatus on 19/01/2011 18:24:00
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Julius Foederatus

Not really. The performance of Minnie ships would be unchanged vs. the other racial ships. You would just see different fits. You'd see a lot more armor Hurricanes rather than these bastardized shield ones.


No you wouldnt see any armor Hurricanes, because they would be outperformed by every other armor battlecruiser by a huge margin.

Shield fits are being used because they allow them to fill the role the ships are supposed to fill, which requires them to have room for 4-5 weapon upgrades.


That's a completely ridiculous assertion on its face. You're talking about a system that can get 70k ehp, goes over 1km/s with 3 trimarks (that's currently, imagine if we changed the trimark penalty), has plenty of room for EWAR, does over 700 dps, has no cap issues with the weapons, gets selectable damage types, and can still project dps to about 20-25km. Compare that with a Harbinger and you've got a ship that's faster, meaner, has better tracking, and has much better armor resists to the type of damage the Harb is going to be doing. Not to mention you can lose a little dps and gain the use of two medium neuts. And Gallente BCs stack up even less favorably against it.


I think you need to look at an actual armor cane, it certainly cant project damage to 20-25km even with barrage.
425's with barrage have 3 + 18km for its range
220's with barrage have 2.7 + 17km for its range
so with falloff formula you will not be putting out meaningful damage, swapping to that would mean you lost 10s of damage in that fight as well due to no armor cane actually loading barrage on a regular basis from the start of the fight.

edit. I would like to improve gallente but I would say making them the fastest ships kills minmatar kiting. I would prefer to make it so once they have you in scram you dont leave.

Also thats funny that you just claimed a Harbinger is out dps'd by a armor cane. With everyone flying shield these days and the Harbinger without tracking enhancers hitting reliably out to 20km with scorch im surprised so many people whinge about the laser damage type. I just cross trained my alt to fly Harbingers for that reason.

Edit 2. That hurricane fit is horrible, and still doesnt do damage reliably out to 20km, unless we talk drone damage only

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.20 09:38:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Cassus Temon

4.) ..or decrease the PG requirements for Hybrids; alternatively, do both to a lesser extent. Gallente ships do suffer on Powergrid, as I recall; can't imagine trying to fit that Hurricane fit up there, on a Brutix. Speaking of which, I might add regarding that; you need to overheat everything, for effect.


Out of curiousity I had a go

Armor Brutix of cack

Low Slots

800mm Rolled Tungsten
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Magnetic Stabilizer II

Mid Slots

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Tracking Computer II

High Slots

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Cal Navy Anti
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II

Rig Slots

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Drones

Hammerhead II


For added eft-warrioring (as both fits are crap) I added a mind-linked damnation alt and slaves alpha through to epsilon, with overheat 77k ehp and 755dps, with 158dps at 20km Cool

Julius Foederatus
Posted - 2011.01.20 21:12:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Julius Foederatus on 20/01/2011 21:14:24
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 20/01/2011 09:27:14
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 20/01/2011 09:12:49

I think you need to look at an actual armor cane, it certainly cant project damage to 20-25km even with barrage.
425's with barrage have 3 + 18km for its range
220's with barrage have 2.7 + 17km for its range
so with falloff formula you will not be putting out meaningful damage, swapping to that would mean you lost 10s of damage in that fight as well due to no armor cane actually loading barrage on a regular basis from the start of the fight.

edit. I would like to improve gallente but I would say making them the fastest ships kills minmatar kiting. I would prefer to make it so once they have you in scram you dont leave.

Also thats funny that you just claimed a Harbinger is out dps'd by a armor cane. With everyone flying shield these days and the Harbinger without tracking enhancers hitting reliably out to 20km with scorch im surprised so many people whinge about the laser damage type. I just cross trained my alt to fly Harbingers for that reason.

Edit 2. That hurricane fit is horrible, and still doesnt do damage reliably out to 20km, unless we talk drone damage only


I'll concede that you can't project dps to 25km, and only barely out to 20km. However, the base speed difference more than makes up for that with the Cane being able to control range much better than a Harbinger. Also, the whole discussion was about comparing the performance of armor bcs, so the damage types come into play, but also just because not everything shield tanked is going to have a massive EM hole, nor is everything going to be shield tanked. It's easy to come up with scenarios where a particular ship will get pwnt hard, but on the whole, PVP is highly unpredictable and you can come up with a ton of scenarios where paper beats rock, but selectable damage types tends to give an advantage on the whole compared with non-selectable damage types.

Also, here's the Hurricane fit I did up in EFT:
[Hurricane, New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Fulmination Assault Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x3

The TD allows you to control range even better on the Harbinger due to its pathetic falloff, or take a big chunk out of his DPS if you decide to close range. Either way, this is hardly a weak ship, even if we do boost Gallente speed.

And lastly, one of my underlying points is that kiting is way too easy in this game. Minmatar kiting should be killed. If you want to kite, you should have to severely gimp your fit in order to get the amount of speed you need to do so. You should not be able to kite things without any effort whatsoever. The other races counter with range, the Gallente have no counter unless you count rails with **** tracking and **** dps.

Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Posted - 2011.01.21 09:12:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Korg Tronix on 21/01/2011 09:15:48
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Max quote is max.


Gallente cant counter range, due to them over nerfing Remote sensor dampeners and rails being crap. Not due to the speed difference.
I would say cutting your ehp by between 20k(2 LSE's and shield rigs fit) and 30k(Agility Rigs) is a fairly large sacrifice to gain the speed and range to use autocannons properly, not to mention going from having three utility mids to just the one is a fairly large sacrifice.

In your theoretical eft/fight, yes the minmatar has selectable damage types but only if he knows what he is facing and changes in warp, you start the same fight with emp loaded, you lose 10s of dps to change. Pvp isnt always mutual and you dont always get the drop on people.

Also well done for posting 'a look my can gets <--------> this much dps' eft high damage set up, without thinking about the fact that hail has a max effective range of 4km(ish) and ****ty tracking.
With that tracking disruptor, you knock the harbinger range down to 12km of which 10km is still optimal.

As you seem to want to play this out in eft, what happens when the harbinger launches medium ECM drones and you get jammed 40% of the time, what happens if the harbinger isnt the standard 1600mm plate fit and can keep you outside of scram range.

edit. changed the wall'o'text

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.01.21 10:52:00 - [86]
 

The problem is, you're talking about Armor tanking ships which you want to use for DPS; and Amaar consistently gets the Win, with all those mid slots, and a higher armor base.

Look at the Harbinger, and the Myrmi; two--more comparable--ships. Harbi has a faster base speed, more armor base, a more even spread of resistances; it's actually faster than the Myrmi by 5 m/s, drops Sig by 35 m, and has a better scan Res. And that's just the surface; with no skills whatsoever.

Harbi also gets a 5% bonus to Laser Damage, and 10% reduction to Laser Capacitor need per level; compared to Myrmi with 10% bonus Drone HP Damage, and 7.5% bonus Armor Repair amount. Then compare the Harbi's ability to fit 7 Lasers, with one high slot to spare; and the Myrmi's limit of 6 Hybrids with no High slots to spare, though it does get the extra Mid slot.

The Myrmi becomes a mission ship, where it can fight in controlled circumstances; or it gets fit in a manner contrary to its purpose, to make it effective in PvP. The Harbi just slides on smoothly into either role, as it is needed; without the need for modifications, contrary to its purpose.

When comparing the Cane, and the Harbi; even the Cane comes up a little short. Lower PG(Still more than Myrmi), 1 less Turret slot(It can fit Neut's or Launchers).. It actually gets the same base dps with 6 Projectiles, and two launchers, less one; as the Myrmi and Harbi get, with their respective full load of Weapons up top. Despite that fact, the cane can fit all that, without maxing PG; while the Harbi, and Myrmi, are both over on theirs. Fortunately, the cane pull's ahead, when you push its skill to 5; beating both the Harbi, and--significantly--the Myrmi.

Armor capabilites are, of course, variable between the 3 ships; and take more time to consider, and weigh characteristic's of. Honestly, don't really feel like doing it right now; though, I will note the Cane's even lower Sig, higher Scan Res., and automatic Cap Stability, granted by its guns.

I think the primary factor here, is balancing everything individually; without consideration for bonuses applied in one situation. A Hurricane does significantly improve DPS, with it's bonuses; and a Myrmi does gets it's bonuses to drones and armor Rep. These are situations; they are not constants. Individually, any one weapon, or module; should be as good, as any other in its class. Ship's should apply role bonuses, that make sense for their Faction/Classification; and all, should be equally capable of holding their own on the battlefield. I think this is all; any player can ask.

Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.21 11:06:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Korg Leaf on 21/01/2011 11:11:08
Originally by: Cassus Temon
The problem is, you're talking about Armor tanking ships which you want to use for DPS; and Amaar consistently gets the Win, with all those mid slots, and a higher armor base.

Look at the Harbinger, and the Myrmi; two--more comparable--ships. Harbi has a faster base speed, more armor base, a more even spread of resistances; it's actually faster than the Myrmi by 5 m/s, drops Sig by 35 m, and has a better scan Res. And that's just the surface; with no skills whatsoever.

Harbi also gets a 5% bonus to Laser Damage, and 10% reduction to Laser Capacitor need per level; compared to Myrmi with 10% bonus Drone HP Damage, and 7.5% bonus Armor Repair amount. Then compare the Harbi's ability to fit 7 Lasers, with one high slot to spare; and the Myrmi's limit of 6 Hybrids with no High slots to spare, though it does get the extra Mid slot.

The Myrmi becomes a mission ship, where it can fight in controlled circumstances; or it gets fit in a manner contrary to its purpose, to make it effective in PvP. The Harbi just slides on smoothly into either role, as it is needed; without the need for modifications, contrary to its purpose.

When comparing the Cane, and the Harbi; even the Cane comes up a little short. Lower PG(Still more than Myrmi), 1 less Turret slot(It can fit Neut's or Launchers).. It actually gets the same base dps with 6 Projectiles, and two launchers, less one; as the Myrmi and Harbi get, with their respective full load of Weapons up top. Despite that fact, the cane can fit all that, without maxing PG; while the Harbi, and Myrmi, are both over on theirs. Fortunately, the cane pull's ahead, when you push its skill to 5; beating both the Harbi, and--significantly--the Myrmi.

Armor capabilites are, of course, variable between the 3 ships; and take more time to consider, and weigh characteristic's of. Honestly, don't really feel like doing it right now; though, I will note the Cane's even lower Sig, higher Scan Res., and automatic Cap Stability, granted by its guns.

I think the primary factor here, is balancing everything individually; without consideration for bonuses applied in one situation. A Hurricane does significantly improve DPS, with it's bonuses; and a Myrmi does gets it's bonuses to drones and armor Rep. These are situations; they are not constants. Individually, any one weapon, or module; should be as good, as any other in its class. Ship's should apply role bonuses, that make sense for their Faction/Classification; and all, should be equally capable of holding their own on the battlefield. I think this is all; any player can ask.


to be honest, I never wanted to argue the difference between armor tanking bc's. My point was that if gallente became the fastest race, you would not be able to use the minmatar ships to kite, as a shield brutix with a scram will always catch a shield hurricane then and it becomes a case of ehp/dps race which the shield brutix wins.

As far as armor tanking bc's go the harbinger is generally considered the king for plated tank and gank work, with the cane coming in second due to utility/cap stability.

The myrm is a fantastic armor tanker though and has plenty of utility and is extremely versatile, more so than either of the others. It can be fitted as dual rep boat, a triple rep boat, multi plate bait, shield gank, shield kite .... theres more but I cant be bothered to write them all out. Its main issue is its speed.

edit. I am in no way saying that the myrm is the best ship, I would still use the harbinger or hurricane (I do), I was just pointing out that as an armor tanker its good

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.01.21 12:00:00 - [88]
 

I was just considering the possibility of penalties applied, for ships fitting other factions weapons; not simply the loss of Role or ship bonuses, as those are generally inconsistent, and not applied to those weapons in every circumstance. Thus, a Myrmi fitting Autocannons, would gain the benefit of low Cap and PG req.; while it would actually take a hit to DPS output and Tracking for example.

This would of course, be a compatibility issue; based on the ships computers, interfacing with foreign weapon systems. Similar penalties, could be applied to various modules; which would be more consistent, with a certain Faction's use of assisting modules, such as Gallente Sensor Dampener's. Similarly, Armor ships, could fit Shield tech, but suffer from its use; while Shield tanking ships, would suffer from applying armor tanking modules.

This would help to reduce, or remove; exploitation of fitting for max. benefit from all Factions. The reason for this, is that nerf's typically occur; when one Faction/Type of module or weapon, is used something else more powerful. Example being Myrmi with Autocannon's: Suddenly the Myrmi has PG to spare, more versatile DPS, and a full Cap. reserve; while being able to dish out less DPS, but at greater range, and still field its drones.

(I'm not sure the range increase for Autocannon's; is worth that drop in DPS, they have. It loses some 60 DPS without role bonuses; for the addtion of 5.7 km falloff, with max. skill.)

Another thing to consider, is Speed vs. Range; which has been mentioned already. There's a reason Minmatar ships, are considered one of the best PvP ships; it's a combination of Speed, maneuverability, low Sig. Radius, and weapon range factors. They have the ability to control the battlefield, by achieving positional superiority; while not only mitigating the damage they recieve, but applying DPS at range, and being able to maintain a reasonable shield or armor tank. This, is optimal.

Gallente suffer from poor weapon range, speed, and maneuverability; which bring us back to the original post. This, is the commonly recognized problem; and one which has to be remedied, in some fashion. As an alternative to Blaster's, or Autocannon's; you can fit Hybrid Rails, and increase range. This increases both PG and CPU req., while reducing DPS significantly; providing nearly 100 dps loss per group of 6 highest T2 Mediums. The benefit there is range. The downside, is the DPS can't eat through anything DPS-to-EHP or DPS-to-Active Tank; and stronger close range ships, will just close in and DPS you to death. Let's face it, max DPS on a Myrmi with 250mm Tech II Rails, and all level V skills; coupled with all six lows filled with Tech II Mag Stab's, is only 295. Not only that, but I've got Frig's; that could survive 4-5, of it's alpha strikes.

Drones, added to that, does make it more significant; but its not the only one, that can use them. It does have more than usual of course; and 2 Hammerhead II, 2 Ogre II, and 1 Hobgoblin II, will dish out a decent 315 DPS. Unfortunately, somebody wipes out your Ogre II's; and it drops to a measly 125 DPS, until you field 2 more. So, they suffer not only in Positional Superiority; but in Logistical superiority as well. It does make for a nice initial deployment; though, still suffering in overall DPS.

That's just a Myrmi. Role and Ship bonus's, combined with high drone bandwidth and capacity; make it more practical, than other Gallente vessels.


Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.01.21 12:10:00 - [89]
 

The main reason people fit myrms with autocannons is for the cap, not really the range.

The main things gallente need is more damage so they are the kings damage wise inside scram range. According to some other posters in other threads a geddon out dps a mega at 8km(I think) when really the only time a geddon should out dps a mega is outside scram/or overheated web range.

Gallente ships should be able to be kited by longer range boats, thats the point of hte range boats, but if a gallente ship gets tackle (scram and web) on an equivalent sized ship it should be lights out, atm blasters, although still the highest dps guns, do not out dps the amarr or minmatar boats by enough to make it a forgone conclusion.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.01.21 12:54:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Korg Leaf
The main reason people fit myrms with autocannons is for the cap, not really the range.

The main things gallente need is more damage so they are the kings damage wise inside scram range. According to some other posters in other threads a geddon out dps a mega at 8km(I think) when really the only time a geddon should out dps a mega is outside scram/or overheated web range.

Gallente ships should be able to be kited by longer range boats, thats the point of hte range boats, but if a gallente ship gets tackle (scram and web) on an equivalent sized ship it should be lights out, atm blasters, although still the highest dps guns, do not out dps the amarr or minmatar boats by enough to make it a forgone conclusion.


The problem with that; is that it creates an auot-win situation. That sort of thing shouldn't exist; as it allows players to set up that dynamic. Fit a MWD, 2 OD's, Nano, shield tank, Scram, Web, and two Mag Stab's; launch drones, and press the "I win" button, when the first ship jumps through gate. It might not work on a Battleship with a scrambler, and Web; but that's not really the point, is it, as two or 3 ships like that will. This logic doesn't really solve anything; it just creates more exploits to take advantage of.

My thought is:

Give all Gallente ships a 10% boost to Scan Resolution, and a 30% decrease in Signature radius, to start; this will effectively increase their Damage Mitigation, and allow for faster target locking. Test it on Sisi! So maybe they're slow; and perhaps they should be. The majority of Gallente ships, don't appear to be designed for speed; but that doesn't mean they can't have electronic shielding, reducing their sig radius.

Look at all weapons, and compare them to the factions, and ships they are intended to be used on; then rebalance them, appropriate to those ships general statistic's. Slow ships should have longer range weapons. There's no reason Hybrid plasma can't maintain coherence at greater ranges; and blasters could effectively DPS at greater distances. The possible addition of explosive damage, could work with Hybrid plasma too; giving them more versatile DPS, and potentially more effective DPS. Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do with lasers; EM and Thermal, is about all a laser can project.

As I mentioned before, compatibility issues could arrise; from using other Faction weapons, on your ships. This would be to remove the use of exploit fits; where ships achieve stupid DPS--and--absurd tanks, or speed. Due to the varying nature of different factions ship designs; weapon fitting exploitation, becomes a problem when weapons are balanced for those ships. This is something we don't want.

While I agree with this thread, and have supported it; I do believe the whole system need to be looked at. Not just those modules, weapons, and ships; which are strictly Gallente in origin. If one thing is changed; it will affect another, or result in an exploit somewhere. It will be mass DPS tactical advantage in situation; or it will be something else. You'll find people fitting Hybrid Blasters on Minmatar ships with no turret bonuses; and maxing their speed, for highly efective DPS they wouldn't normally obtain.


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