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Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.05 19:00:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 05/06/2011 20:00:07
I can counter in one phrase, "Not Blue Shoot It"(NBSI). This is pretty much the standard for anyone operating in low/null sec
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
In so far as Local is being used for quick identification. (Somebody already said this earlier)

Tried and true “quick identification” is done through standing (NBSI). If they're red, they're hostile (shoot it); if they're blue, they're not hostile (don't shoot it); if they're neutral, they're neither and thus a risk (prepare to shoot it ~depends on the corp policy).
Are you saying you're flying around in unsecure space assuming neutrals are your best buddies? Names really don’t matter...
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Off the top of my head exploit. I'm a rich null sec alliance ceo. Billions in the bank. I grief for fun with my alts, (how else do I get my kicks? :)
Every time my name change timer expires, I send my alt a blob of isk, and have her renamed to the CEO's name of a rival corp who I want to grief, plus a "." or some other hard to notice character at the end. Fly my ship into enemy corp home, kill as many as I can.

Again, standing. Just because the name is similar -- in no way whatsoever does that mean a similarly named greifer has the same standing -- he/she wouldn’t get any further than he/she would with any other name in that case (NBSI)
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Nobody is going to bother to check AKA in the character sheet unless they are suspicious. And you only get suspicious after you get shot at.

You're suspiscious until you're getting shot at, then you're not suspiscious anymore, you're certain (NBSI)


C'mon Kaelie Onren, I was expecting better from you

Enabhsi
Posted - 2011.06.14 15:06:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Enabhsi on 14/06/2011 15:07:54
Supported.
Lot's of good conditions mentioned, allowing for satisfied costumers while still hindering scammers.

Edit: Not to mention, that the new last name option allows the usage of once similar, yet blocked names which forced that stupid number-adding and ****.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.15 02:54:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Enabhsi
Edited by: Enabhsi on 14/06/2011 15:07:54
Supported.
Lot's of good conditions mentioned, allowing for satisfied costumers while still hindering scammers.

Edit: Not to mention, that the new last name option allows the usage of once similar, yet blocked names which forced that stupid number-adding and ****.

Yup, and in the fellow thread (Name Change) with harsh conditions! there are even more insights that rational dissenters have failed to strike down.

"Name Changing: Keeping EVE beautiful by reducing number-added names"

Devron Taal
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:30:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Nobody is going to bother to check AKA in the character sheet unless they are suspicious. And you only get suspicious after you get shot at.

You're suspiscious until you're getting shot at, then you're not suspiscious anymore, you're certain (NBSI)
C'mon Kaelie Onren, I was expecting better from you


I read her point as you *just won't get suspicious* until its too late. Your NBSI rationale only works in null sec yeah?

Egilmonsc
Minmatar
Massively Mob

Posted - 2011.06.16 15:18:00 - [95]
 

Supported~

Diamaht Nevain
Gallente
Avatar Union

Posted - 2011.06.16 21:50:00 - [96]
 

Supported

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.17 01:22:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Devron Taal
I read her point as you *just won't get suspicious* until its too late. Your NBSI rationale only works in null sec yeah?
Negative, the 'rationale' works in all security. If "A" is being ambushed in high-sec and the opponent "B" (formerly named "C") isn't being blown away by Concord, it's because "B" has justification. Justification being:
  • Kill Rights -- your karma is not my problem -- set victims to Red next time, odds are you won’t remember a particular name or be looking for several in local every millisecond anyway
  • War -- being Red should have been your first clue to "Shoot it"
  • You're being suicide ganked -- it's too late regardless of their name
In any case, the name change is insignificant.



Although, yeah, while you can't go around killing Neutrals without expecting consequences in high-sec, I did deliberately write "if they're neutral, they're neither and thus a risk (prepare to shoot it ~depends on the corp policy)." Emphasis on “prepare,” this is EVE (not Hello Kitty Online), if you're not suspicious you've got it coming

count sporkula
Posted - 2011.06.17 01:55:00 - [98]
 

also. the old name should be indexed so if someone does search for it the new name comes up with an explanation that the person had changed their name.

Devron Taal
Posted - 2011.06.19 08:33:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Originally by: Devron Taal
I read her point as you *just won't get suspicious* until its too late. Your NBSI rationale only works in null sec yeah?
Negative, the 'rationale' works in all security. If "A" is being ambushed in high-sec and the opponent "B" (formerly named "C") isn't being blown away by Concord, it's because "B" has justification. Justification being:
  • Kill Rights -- your karma is not my problem -- set victims to Red next time, odds are you won’t remember a particular name or be looking for several in local every millisecond anyway
  • War -- being Red should have been your first clue to "Shoot it"
  • You're being suicide ganked -- it's too late regardless of their name
In any case, the name change is insignificant.



Although, yeah, while you can't go around killing Neutrals without expecting consequences in high-sec, I did deliberately write "if they're neutral, they're neither and thus a risk (prepare to shoot it ~depends on the corp policy)." Emphasis on “prepare,” this is EVE (not Hello Kitty Online), if you're not suspicious you've got it coming


What about if I tell my corp to watch out for a cork sucker called darth vader as he has been known to corrupt Jedi.
He changes his name and escapes the reputation.

Mamba Lev
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.06.19 16:22:00 - [100]
 


Na'taliai
Posted - 2011.06.19 21:44:00 - [101]
 

NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:26:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Na'taliai
NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...

Reading comprehension. Try again.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:48:00 - [103]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 20/06/2011 00:49:10
Originally by: Devron Taal
What about if I tell my corp to watch out for a cork sucker called darth vader as he has been known to corrupt Jedi.
He changes his name and escapes the reputation.

That's a good point (and interesting scenario), here are my thoughts:
  • Do periodic searches on "darth vader" (in theory running a search on the old name will bring up his new name)
  • Set "darth vader" to red and when he changes his name you'll be surprised to find a strange name in your standings. He'll still be red and not an immediate security lapse, but you'll need to notice. Which leads me to...
  • Someone once mentioned the idea to have an automatic mass mailing wherein everyone either linked to or linked by the character (think character to character standings, Block List, etc.) would receive a notification in the event of a name change.
...but if you're serious about being an "escaping reputation" activist, look at the existing in-game feature of Character Transfers which provides no records (escapes reputation) and no in-game rational (destroys immersion).

I'm just using ideas and arguments mentioned in this and other Name Change threads -- which I can see are becoming more confusing and cumbersome as the op ceases to amend his/her opening post -- should I just open a new thread consolidating these points or would it just be excess clutter?

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.20 04:36:00 - [104]
 


Amarr Priest
Amarr
Paragon.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2011.06.21 01:43:00 - [105]
 

I was the one that mentioned that in the event of a name changer every person who has that character on their contact list should receive a evemail stating that so and so character has changed their name to such and such. Also for all of you that cry about name changes saying that you can escape a bad rep and yada yada, Open your eyes and realize people can just buy totally new characters and sell their bad rep characters at no loss of isk if your smart and you would never know. This happens all the time. With name changes they will still have that good or bad rep and all would know about it.

Also with CCP trying to turn eve into a modern wow with walking on station + other things that will follow. Giving characters a actual identity it is only fitting that we get the chance to change our names to something we like rather than a name that really meant nothing back when a name was really just an ID.

CCP is all about micro transactions with plex and now that new store for your characters and lets not forget character transfers so not to allow something like this is just silly. CCP says characters are our identity/reputation and yet we can just trade that and that's OK but we can't change our names.... Logic just went bye bye.

Designated Decoy08
Posted - 2011.06.21 15:40:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Na'taliai
NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...


I Totally Agree, yes I have an 08 cos some one beat me to the name, but i still like it. Dude if your going to come up with a name like that childsupport stuff..... You Picked it dude, either live with that rep or get a new toon.

Amarr Priest
Amarr
Paragon.
Nulli Tertius
Posted - 2011.06.21 16:12:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Designated Decoy08
Originally by: Na'taliai
NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...


I Totally Agree, yes I have an 08 cos some one beat me to the name, but i still like it. Dude if your going to come up with a name like that childsupport stuff..... You Picked it dude, either live with that rep or get a new toon.


Once again your logic is flawed, If your character has an identity and your not allowed to change your identity says CCP then why can we just trade that identity to anyone and not have to keep your reputation. People infiltrate corps and alliances this way but your saying that's ok cuz its just a trade and no one knew it was a traded character but we can't have name changes cuz everyone would know about it.... riiight....

Earl Eve
Posted - 2011.06.21 17:55:00 - [108]
 

So everyone whose name begins with the letter A or Z will change their names..its a pain being top of the list and first primary in combat!! Change a name but the new name must start with the first letter of the old name..Very Happy

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.22 02:57:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 22/06/2011 02:58:10
Originally by: Designated Decoy08
Originally by: Na'taliai
NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...
I Totally Agree, yes I have an 08 cos some one beat me to the name, but i still like it. Dude if your going to come up with a name like that childsupport stuff..... You Picked it dude, either live with that rep or get a new toon.
Both of you must be thinking of Character Transfers
  • As described here, Name Changing will not allow you to evade your reputation (Reading Comprehension)
  • If you 'lived with' everything as is in Eve you'd be back playing the Castor Expansion.
  • Your ‘name’ is not your ‘reputation,’ it is a ‘name.’ Your ‘name’ doesn't leave you and go out and do stuff (er, without violating the EULA or Character Transfers); ‘reputation’ is the sum of the actions of the ‘person’ in control. This is why Character Transfers are ‘bad.’

Originally by: Earl Eve
So everyone whose name begins with the letter A or Z will change their names..its a pain being top of the list and first primary in combat!! Change a name but the new name must start with the first letter of the old name..Very Happy
It's refreshing to see an argument and a solution in one post (Well, I personally don't like the solution and question the Middle-Alphabet-Apocalypse, but it's another one to the list). Well played, don't forget to tic the "support" box!

CurtisH
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 19:41:00 - [110]
 

Supported

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.24 07:15:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 22/06/2011 02:58:10
Originally by: Designated Decoy08
Originally by: Na'taliai
NOT SUPPORTED, your name is your reputation. u may be able to change your looks, but NEVER your name, this isnt world of warcraft...
I Totally Agree, yes I have an 08 cos some one beat me to the name, but i still like it. Dude if your going to come up with a name like that childsupport stuff..... You Picked it dude, either live with that rep or get a new toon.
Both of you must be thinking of Character Transfers
  • As described here, Name Changing will not allow you to evade your reputation (Reading Comprehension)
  • If you 'lived with' everything as is in Eve you'd be back playing the Castor Expansion.
  • Your ‘name’ is not your ‘reputation,’ it is a ‘name.’ Your ‘name’ doesn't leave you and go out and do stuff (er, without violating the EULA or Character Transfers); ‘reputation’ is the sum of the actions of the ‘person’ in control. This is why Character Transfers are ‘bad.’

Originally by: Earl Eve
So everyone whose name begins with the letter A or Z will change their names..its a pain being top of the list and first primary in combat!! Change a name but the new name must start with the first letter of the old name..Very Happy
It's refreshing to see an argument and a solution in one post (Well, I personally don't like the solution and question the Middle-Alphabet-Apocalypse, but it's another one to the list). Well played, don't forget to tic the "support" box!


Ah, back from vacation and look at all that I have missed!

Okay, let's break it down logically.

True character transfers can be abused. But surely you cannot use the fact that there is an existing loophole as a justification for adding a NEW exploitable loophole. That's as silly as saying that deadbolts can be lockpicked, so might as well not lock your door at all. zzzzz

Okay so let's examine these exploitable loopholes it see if they really are all comparible, as the proponents of this thread seem to take as an assumed fact:

Reputational Leaking Exploits:

1) Simplest of all, just open a new account/alt. Presto chango, all the "Your identity is sum total of your actions" arguments evaporate.
Pros: Clean slate. Scotch free.
Cons: You have to start a new character. No standings. No skills.
May cost you a new account, $15 a month, or free if just an alt.

2) Buy a farmed toon.
Pros: clean slate
Cons: may not have exactly the skills you need, may not have the standings that you have, may have a stupid name that makes sense only in chinese. Also, getting one that custom "suits" you may take time for that custom farmer to make one. Takes a lot of time.
Costs you $30 to transfer, plus more to pay the farmer. (real $$)

3) Name change
Pros: almost a clean slate. Will avoid most casual neg standings, even with a mail out to all people who have them as contacts. Only those who really hate you will notice. And even then, those with many reds in their contact list will NOT NOTICE a random "new red with a strange name" showing up. Once again, people who think they will notice have not played long enough to have a contacts list 2 pages long, with over 30 reds.

Cons: A one time cost of ($50 (?) not sure if that was decided what it should cost)

So I leave you to decide if we need yet another potential reputation leak, and whether the pros outweigh the cons.


-I don't follow the whole "We are going to be walking around in station, therefore need new names" argument. It's not like the names are going to be hanging over our heads in a glowing label ala The Sims. Maybe you can elaborate in this need some more.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:58:00 - [112]
 

Quick reply! Tell me if I missed a vital
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Only those who really hate you will notice. ...Once again, people who think they will notice have not played long enough to have a contacts list 2 pages long, with over 30 reds.
Success! Anyone short of "who you really hate" doesn't really matter, do they? I mean, if you can’t be bothered to take an extra step for them odds are you won't even remember their exact name at warp-in anyway (this is why the "Notes" section will most likely have to transfer as well)

A list of 30 reds is the same as a list of 30 names in terms of unmanageability

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
you cannot use the fact that there is an existing loophole as a justification for adding a NEW exploitable loophole. ...So I leave you to decide if we need yet another potential reputation leak
Harsh words but Name Changing provides a regulated alternative. That is definative progress

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I don't follow the whole "We are going to be walking around in station, therefore need new names" argument. It's not like the names are going to be hanging over our heads in a glowing label ala The Sims. Maybe you can elaborate in this need some more.
Pass, I don’t see that argument as adding anything but pathos… but if you want me to argue on their behalf I’ll give it a try later, it’s Friday

----------------------------

Yeah, I don't plan on deciding anything, I see this as a practice in feasibility and "quality control," ...my personal views differ

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.25 19:13:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Quick reply! Tell me if I missed a vital
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Only those who really hate you will notice. ...Once again, people who think they will notice have not played long enough to have a contacts list 2 pages long, with over 30 reds.
Success! Anyone short of "who you really hate" doesn't really matter, do they? I mean, if you can’t be bothered to take an extra step for them odds are you won't even remember their exact name at warp-in anyway (this is why the "Notes" section will most likely have to transfer as well)

A list of 30 reds is the same as a list of 30 names in terms of unmanageability

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
you cannot use the fact that there is an existing loophole as a justification for adding a NEW exploitable loophole. ...So I leave you to decide if we need yet another potential reputation leak
Harsh words but Name Changing provides a regulated alternative. That is definative progress

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I don't follow the whole "We are going to be walking around in station, therefore need new names" argument. It's not like the names are going to be hanging over our heads in a glowing label ala The Sims. Maybe you can elaborate in this need some more.
Pass, I don’t see that argument as adding anything but pathos… but if you want me to argue on their behalf I’ll give it a try later, it’s Friday

----------------------------

Yeah, I don't plan on deciding anything, I see this as a practice in feasibility and "quality control," ...my personal views differ


Your points:

1) What if they delete the mail? How many times have you read the CONCORD notices or the insurance claim notifications? Plenty I'm sure. So if people can change names willy nilly, I'm betting you will get a couple of name change notifications a week. Now you can go on and update all your contact lists, But the point is that adding anything to making the process of tracking people harder is a negative, No matter how you try to spin it as 'not so bad' it will never be good.

2) Progress? I don't see how adding a new loophole is progress. Regulated or otherwise. The net effect is more exploits. Perhaps if you plug one of the other loopholes first before you add this new one, then you can perhaps call it a net-net even steven.
Add name changes WITH the existing toon transfers, and you are only encouraging MORE toon farmers.

3) yeah, no need to argue this one. I threw it in there because it was mentioned by someone as a 'reason' for needing name changing. It is a digression from the main topic, so not worth debating over.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.26 09:02:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 26/06/2011 09:02:24
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
What if they delete the mail?

Then the email was deleted in negligence
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
So if people can change names willy nilly, I'm betting you will get a couple of name change notifications a week.

Restrictions on frequency have been proposed already
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
But the point is that adding anything to making the process of tracking people harder is a negative

Better than Character Transfers in which there is no in-game mechanic (unregulated) of tracking people
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Progress? I don't see how adding a new loophole is progress.

The loophole of escaping reputation is what exists now and that is because it is unregulated, Name Changing is a regulated alternative. Again, better than Character Transfers
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The net effect is more exploits.

Since Name Changing is a regulated alternative, instances which would have otherwise become Character Transfers may be diverted to Name Changing leading to less unregulated (your “exploits”) actions.
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Perhaps if you plug one of the other loopholes first before you add this new one, then you can perhaps call it a net-net even steven.

Go for it
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Add name changes WITH the existing toon transfers, and you are only encouraging MORE toon farmers.

“Name Changes should not transfer in the event of a Character Transfer (reverting to the oldest name) and/or no character having been transferred will ever be allowed a name change” has been proposed already

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.06.29 03:36:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Nikita Keriget on 29/06/2011 03:35:55
Yes, but I don't want a restriction on character transfers. Biggest value of this feature would be to improve character liquidity - a lot of the characters of the bazaar have stupid names.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.06.29 06:39:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Khamelean on 29/06/2011 06:51:48
I'm still sceptical, but i think this could be implemented in such a way as to be reasonably effective at maintaing identity.

Assuming the previously suggested limitations, I would also add that once you set a standing to a character or add them to your contact list, you will always see them as the name that you saw when you set the standing, if they have changed their name, then the new name would appear under the a.k.a section. until you decide to open your settings and chose to view them by their new name.

Quote:
What about if I tell my corp to watch out for a cork sucker called darth vader as he has been known to corrupt Jedi.
He changes his name and escapes the reputation.


This should cover that, once you tell your buddies to look out for that vader cat, they can add to contacts/set standing and they will always see them as vader, no matter how many times they change their name. Unless they CHOOSE to see them by the new name.

So rather than sending a bulk eve mail, simply add a token to the characters old name to let anyone who sees their old name that there is a new name for this character, or show outdated names in a different color.

IRL analogy, I have a different nickname now that i did when i was at university, and different again than when i was in high school, but people i run in to from those days still call me by my older nicknames.

This my be a inconvenience for some players doing background checks, but i think it is a greater quality of life improvement for far more people. Who knows, a features such as this may even encourage a new third party tool to keep track of dastardly people and make recruitment easier.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:31:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
I would also add that once you set a standing to a character or add them to your contact list, you will always see them as the name that you saw when you set the standing, if they have changed their name, then the new name would appear under the a.k.a section. until you decide to open your settings and chose to view them by their new name.
Thanks for the interesting idea. I do think that it cuts into the appeal of Name Change significantly, though. How about applying that only to negative standing contacts? The latter would most likely play out naturally anyway amongst positive contacts.
Originally by: Nikita Keriget
Yes, but I don't want a restriction on character transfers. Biggest value of this feature would be to improve character liquidity - a lot of the characters of the bazaar have stupid names.
I can agree to disagree, but what can you say to those that think character transfers are a bad enough thing already?

Sural Alpha
Posted - 2011.06.30 03:47:00 - [118]
 


Teinyhr
Minmatar
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
Posted - 2011.06.30 23:41:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Teinyhr on 30/06/2011 23:43:42
Edited by: Teinyhr on 30/06/2011 23:42:00
Supporting, obviously as a person unhappy with my character name. I would even pay for it, or let someone else already pay for it via "PLEX for name change". Back in my day there was no "randomize name" -option. Back when I created my character I was in my teens and didn't think too hard, I've since wisened up a bit.
Incarna is a great time to add something like this.

And people who keep mouthing off about "your name is your reputation" - one of the things I've learned in EVE, is that if you're going to do something horrible, you do it with an alt. I've met very few people who have the balls to pull off large-scale corp thefts and destruction of kitten orphanaries with their mains. Not that I would mind a "name history" tab, but still, that concept is just so broken it's not even funny, because there are plenty of ways in EVE to avoid bad karma already.
E: and obviously I wouldn't mind reasonably harsh restrictions on it either, like once per year limits or the like.

Mourn
Assisted Homicide
Dark Phoenix Rising.
Posted - 2011.07.01 00:23:00 - [120]
 

I would support it providing that:

it was limited to once a year (like attribute remaps)or something similar..

There was a fee attached to the service (similar to that of character transfer fee)

Also there should be a way of looking to see what the original character name was.. e.g. Formerly Whateverstupidnamewas in character info somewhere. This way people would be able to change they're names while not being able to shake off bad character reputations, for example someone who is a corp thief/scammer cant go change their character name to clear bad rep.



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