open All Channels
seplocked Features and Ideas Discussion
blankseplocked The Ease of Bearing and Fixes
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Number AB3369
Posted - 2011.01.03 17:11:00 - [1]
 

Hello,

First off, for everyone who will accuse me of it: this is not a troll-post. One could argue that it's a whine, but I'll try to be even with my argument here.

I believe that Eve has a problem: the various divisions of space are disconnected in terms of game play. Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.

This problem has some implications. First, it makes solo PvP extremely difficult. In O.O it's all blob-action; not very solo-inducive. Lowsec is just 0.0 lite, with FW and pirate mini-blobs; soloing is possible here, but the penalties (sec status hit) far outweigh the reward (cheap FW ship kills). In WH space solo play is quite viable, but it takes a TON of patience. I know, because I've done it. Here, it is quite rewarding to drop a bomb or two on a transport fleet and pick off it's Tengu escort, but such an OP can take a week to set up.

There is another issue that occurs here as well. The community is not fully integrated. Here is an example: My main is a member of a well-known (in 0.0) alliance. But does the hisec bear fear me or even know what this alliance is? Absolutely not. And, maybe this is arrogant, but they should. And likewise, big 0.0 alliances should know their carebear counterparts better.

Why is this? I believe that the problem lies in the ease in which PvP can be avoided in hi-sec. Now, at this point I am sure to hear from bears who say, "UR JST A PIRAT!!! LEEVE ME ALONE!!!" But, hear me out as I propose a few solutions.

First, all Level 4 Missions should be non-Concord protected. Should a pirate initiate a fight, he will immediately become a global criminal and take a substantial security hit, but so long as he stays in the deadspace pocket, Concord will not intervene.

Second, initiate a payoff system by which individuals and corporations can pay corrupt Concord officials off so as to initiate assassinations of certain individuals. The difference between this and a Wardec is that the victim is not automatically informed that he has been targetted. The information can be made available, but the bear must make NPC contacts of his own and pay them when he believes he may be targetted. CCP should like this, as hardcore bears don't have to spend much ISK and can indeed play the game enough to pay for it entirely.

I have some more ideas, but I'll send these out first.

-AB

Missm Uppet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.01.03 18:30:00 - [2]
 

Quote:
I believe that Eve has a problem: the various divisions of space are disconnected in terms of game play. Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.


IF this was true, it would really reinforce the end-game concept that CCP has had all along, which is fine by most of us. However, there are far too many exceptions to this idea.

Quote:
This problem has some implications. First, it makes solo PvP extremely difficult. In O.O it's all blob-action; not very solo-inducive. Lowsec is just 0.0 lite, with FW and pirate mini-blobs; soloing is possible here, but the penalties (sec status hit) far outweigh the reward (cheap FW ship kills). In WH space solo play is quite viable, but it takes a TON of patience. I know, because I've done it. Here, it is quite rewarding to drop a bomb or two on a transport fleet and pick off it's Tengu escort, but such an OP can take a week to set up.


Can you explain how an asymmetric flow of wealth between the divisions of space implies difficulty in getting a solo PvP fight?

Quote:
There is another issue that occurs here as well. The community is not fully integrated. Here is an example: My main is a member of a well-known (in 0.0) alliance. But does the hisec bear fear me or even know what this alliance is? Absolutely not. And, maybe this is arrogant, but they should. And likewise, big 0.0 alliances should know their carebear counterparts better.


Well over 300,000 accounts, ~7,000 solar systems, vastly differing play styles (not all of which want to do the solo PvP thing that you seem to be after), and what you get is a community that is about as integrated as could be expected, or even desired.

My advice for you: This is a sandbox game. Go find other players of like-mind and play-style who want to do solo PvP and go mix it up with them.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 12:55:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
I fail at PPPPvP and need moar easy kills please gives me moar easy kills.


There fixed it for you.

Oh yeah post with your main coward.

LordOfDespair
Posted - 2011.01.04 17:45:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Number AB3369
I fail at PPPPvP and need moar easy kills please gives me moar easy kills.


There fixed it for you.

Oh yeah post with your main coward.


PPPvP is how you get easy kills. Solo pvp is in no way easy at all. Have you even played eve?

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.04 18:22:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 04/01/2011 18:24:35
Originally by: LordOfDespair
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Number AB3369
I fail at PPPPvP and need moar easy kills please gives me moar easy kills.


There fixed it for you.

Oh yeah post with your main coward.


PPPvP is how you get easy kills. Solo pvp is in no way easy at all. Have you even played eve?


Have you actually completed High School? If you had you might have the basic reading comprehension skills to note that the part about PPPPvP was in quotes and that I was translating the loser OP's fail post into a more accurate representation of his whine.

As far as playing EVE I post with my main my combat history is easily located. A quick search through eve-search could show you a history of my posting and positions and establish my bonifides.

Something we can't do with you since you are yet another coward hiding behind an alt.

Basically this OP wants access to easy targets and is crying because all those juicy PVE fit BS's are denied to him since he'd have to do some actual work to get them to aggress to him.

Because my god it's just to damned much work to loot steal or grab a couple friends to suicide those juicy targets.

It is a stupid idea that would pretty much kill the game since one of the first thing that most new players do is run combat missions and aren't prepared in knowledge or skills to deal with griefers looking for easy kills.

If the OP were that hardcore there are plenty of people running around with points equipped who are quite willing to fight him.

But no he wants to go after solo mission runners in ships he knows aren't fit for PVP combat in a situation where they are already under PVE fire.

Yet another example of someone who seems to think that other people pay to play a game so they can be victims.

As far as solo combat being hard? Well duh it is an MMO after all.

Number AB3369
Posted - 2011.01.05 01:42:00 - [6]
 

Clearly some people can get very emotional about this topic. I expected as much. I won't go on and try to defend myself except to say that to post with one's main has no tactical advantage and can potentially bring disadvantage. So, I don't do it. Beyond that, I find insults of cowardice made over the internet humorous, so by all means continue to sling them.

Now, on to the topic at hand.

Perhaps it is not that ISK flowing from hisec to 0.0 causes a lack of solo opportunities, but rather the lack of hisec PvP causes ISK to flow out of there. Now, I do think that this is a problem. I do NOT simply want to PWNZOR SUM NOOBZ. That is why I suggested that only mission levels beyond Level 3 be made into unprotected space. Ships that can solo those missions should be able to defend themselves -- if fitted and flown properly.

You are correct about one thing: I hate seeing faction BS's on scan and knowing that I cannot kill them unless they are dumb enough to re-flip the can, which few if any are. Piracy ought be a viable method to make ISK, and unfortunately, such actions require that the customer be somewhat less than willing. I have been on both ends of a hijacking, and I believe it is an interesting part of Eve, a part that makes the game stand out, and one that I see going the way of the dinosaur. I certainly hope it doesn't.

Let me put it another way. I hate, and I mean I detest carebearing. I find it boring, monotanous, and completely un-entertaining. And, yet I must do it. I must do it because, since I enjoy PvP, I lose ships and although I can supplement myself through piracy, my net tends to the red in the long term. Maybe there are pirates who can completely support themselves through ransoms and loot, but I've been around a while and met very, very few who can do this indefinitely. So, the pirate must carebear. A carebear may hate PvP. I don't understand it, but clearly many do. And yet, the carebear does not have to PvP and can play to his heart's content without doing it. This is not fair.

I do not want to drive away carebears, and especially new players. I just want there to be a mechanism by which they are forced, from time to time, to PvP -- in the same way I am forced to carebear.

Cheers,
-AB

Jed Shady
Posted - 2011.01.05 05:00:00 - [7]
 

Interesting idea, but it would ruin the game for many. Here is what I think would happen. It would create a pirate feeding frenzy on missioners. Little gangs of kill mail worshipers would have prober alts out in mission hubs tracking down everyone trying to eek out some xtra isk. Then they would pop in on the poor guy, probably waiting till he was down in shields or otherwise vulnerable, and pop him.

As to the lack of solo pvp, that's just evolution. How else would 1 year old account defeat a 3 year old account? The same way hyenas take down a lion, numbers.

Just my $0.02

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.05 07:06:00 - [8]
 

It's just as stupid an idea as moving all L4's to low sec.

1. it's stupidly easy to scan a mission running ship down. after all big for the most part shield tanked battleships aren't exactly difficult to scan down.

2. Mission runners are at an extreme disadvantage in this situation. They are generally running the wrong kind of tank most likely focused against a particular rat type allowing the pirate to tank against the damage type the MR is doing and load ammo to go after the MR hole.

3. most mission runners don't even fit a scram and why would they for the most part they aren't going to stand a chance against a PVP fit ship that probably in addition to being tanked against their damage type and shooting at their resist hole they'll probably have neuts to shut active tanks down.

Want to see what your idea would look like in practice? Just look at any random low sec system and see how many people are missioning. Cause that's what High sec would look like for the brief time before they shut the servers down.

I PVP a lot I enjoy that aspect of the game, I enjoy it so much that I generally just sell GTC's to feed my habit but I'm not so mind numbingly stupid as to think that the game could survive with out the MR aspect of the game.

Personally I want the most people CCP can get playing the game because a certain percentage of those carebears are going to PVP hell a large percentage of them do already. You yourself admit to running PVE content to make your isk. You have no idea how many of those hated bears you see are actually alts of PVPers.

The easy mostly safe income of missions enables more people to PVP. Make missioning to difficult to do profitably (and taking concord protection out of mission space would do that) and you'll see less not more PVP solo or otherwise.

Less isk flowing into peoples wallets would lead to more risk adverse behavior meaning people would engage less and make damned sure when they do engage that their risk are minimal. Translation moar and bigger blobs.

You are demonstrating the same short sited idiocy that is always present in these sorts of posts. You don't take your idea to it's logical conclusion. You seem to think that if such changes were to go through that people would continue to do what they do under the current system which is simply stupid.

Once again it's just like all the morons calling for all L4's to be moved to low sec. You are under this strange impression that people would keep on running missions in their pimped out faction BS's while the reality is that if the changes you suggest were actually implemented NO ONE WOULD RUN MISSIONS IN PIMPED OUT FACTION BS's.

Assuming they even bothered running missions at all they'd do it in cheap easily replaceable T1 ships unless they are highly skilled and wealthy in which case they'd be running them in unscannalbe T3s.

Which in addition to all the other negative effects on the game would also decimate the market for those faction BS's and all those high end mods that the low and null sec folks sell to fund their PVP activities. Oh and forget about ever selling a marauder again.

Seriously who in their right mind would fly a CNR with a couple bil in modules into a mission space when one random asshat in an AB fit CovOps can lock them down while their gang of gank bunnies warps in for the kill?

Stupid idea is stupid.

Julia Venatrix
Posted - 2011.01.05 09:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
First off, for everyone who will accuse me of it: this is not a troll-post.

Liar, liar - pants on fire!

Quote:
I believe that Eve has a problem: the various divisions of space are disconnected in terms of game play. Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.

Even if your disconnection statement is true, you have not justified why it is a problem.

Go to the Markets forum and ask Akita T about moongoo & T2. I would recommend you consider the volume of that market and where the ISKies flow.

Think about ISK sources and sinks. If you nerf an ISK source (L4 hisec), what will you do to avoid a liquidity crisis?

Quote:
This problem has some implications. First, it makes solo PvP extremely difficult.

No, solo PvP is difficult because a) people don't like to lose and b) God is on the side of the big battalions. That's all.

Quote:
There is another issue that occurs here as well. The community is not fully integrated. Here is an example: My main is a member of a well-known (in 0.0) alliance. But does the hisec bear fear me or even know what this alliance is? Absolutely not. And, maybe this is arrogant, but they should. And likewise, big 0.0 alliances should know their carebear counterparts better.

Justify why a hisec carebear *should* fear you. Why would Eve be a better game if they did?

The reason that they do not fear you is that you are weak and scared. Should you gank them, Concord will blow you up. Should you get a bad standing with their Empire faction, the Empire faction navy will shoot you until you go away. No nullsec alliance can threaten CONCORD, nor can any blow up all of the faction Navies - ergo a lack of fear of a nullsec alliance is a logical and consistent consequence of the game mechanics.

Wanna be feared? HTFU and gank more, and take your CONCORDokken like a fan of West Coast 1980's hair metal should.

Quote:
Why is this? I believe that the problem lies in the ease in which PvP can be avoided in hi-sec.

I believe the problem lies with you. But then I've got galloping pneumonia and little sympathy for my fellow man, particularly when it is beyond them to stick eight smartbombs on an insured Typhoon for some reason.

Selune Virra
Posted - 2011.01.05 15:31:00 - [10]
 

Here's my take on the whole thing...

nullsec = safe because alliances run the show. If you're not blue to them they WILL pod you back to empire. Obviously if you can be made blue or get past the border patrols things are a little easier, since a lot of nullsec is uninhabited for the most part (least it was when I was down there).

lowsec = not safe because of perception of hisec to losec gatecamps at every turn. If the "ebil piwats" of lowsec would ease up on the gatecamps looking for easy kills this perception might change. Personally I think of lowsec as the seedier parts of town -- no feeling of "safety" but if I don't do something stupid, I should be alright.

BIG CHANGE to help this perception of lowsec out would be that the "ebil piwats" grow up and start real piracy. That is, stop with the gorram gate camps, and extort the carebears for stuff. For example, carebear corp ABC wants to mine lowsec stuff, you "own" one of these systems, allow mining operations by corp ABC; but take 15% off the top (isk or mins, whichever). Let's say you can't mfg all that well, so rather than 15% off the top, you get ships at mineral cost (T1 anyway).


hisec -- "safe" because of CONCORD (ie, your typical decent suburb).

W-Space -- "safe" because of no local.



tl;dr -- moar true piracy, less KM whoring.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.01.05 16:27:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Othran on 05/01/2011 16:30:23
Edited by: Othran on 05/01/2011 16:27:44
Originally by: Selune Virra

BIG CHANGE to help this perception of lowsec out would be that the "ebil piwats" grow up and start real piracy. That is, stop with the gorram gate camps, and extort the carebears for stuff. For example, carebear corp ABC wants to mine lowsec stuff, you "own" one of these systems, allow mining operations by corp ABC; but take 15% off the top (isk or mins, whichever). Let's say you can't mfg all that well, so rather than 15% off the top, you get ships at mineral cost (T1 anyway).



The basic problem with that is that most PvP corps since day 1 have had industrial alts/alt corps. m0o did and so has every medium/larger sized PvP corp ever since.

Regarding ransoming - was done for a while (eg Space Invaders in Setec's day - 2003). Got harder to do as CCP increased security "forces" effectiveness. Now its more a case of why would you bother to do it?

Edit - oh and the mining stuff you mention is called "renting" and happens all the time in null. As you can't control space that effectively in low-sec then it doesn't work - not for the sort of stuff you're on about anyway.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.05 17:44:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
Let me put it another way. I hate, and I mean I detest carebearing. I find it boring, monotanous, and completely un-entertaining. And, yet I must do it. I must do it because, since I enjoy PvP, I lose ships and although I can supplement myself through piracy, my net tends to the red in the long term. Maybe there are pirates who can completely support themselves through ransoms and loot, but I've been around a while and met very, very few who can do this indefinitely. So, the pirate must carebear. A carebear may hate PvP. I don't understand it, but clearly many do. And yet, the carebear does not have to PvP and can play to his heart's content without doing it. This is not fair.


PvP and piracy destroys value. For the EVE economy not to go into decline, more value must be created than destroyed. This means there is a limit for sustainable piracy. For each hour a player devotes to destruction they need 4 hours devoted to creation for it to balance out.

If piracy was generally profitable, then more and more would do it until the entire economy would go into decline, as there is no limit to the need for isk a pirate has. Its not like he's sated for a day after making a kill.

This means the population only supports a very small number of pirates that make a profit. Apparently you are not one of them. If you would have been a predator in the natural world, you would have starved to death. Here, you can survive by carebearing. Either become a better predator, because making it easier to hunt would simply reduce the prey population by such a number that you would end up in the same situation.

In EVE, too many people want to play the predator role. Too many for the economy to support. Hence you have a lot of starving predators like yourself.


Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.01.07 12:47:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
I'll try to be even with my argument here.


No, you dont try in the slightest.

Originally by: Number AB3369
I believe that Eve has a problem:


And I believe what you meant to say was you have a problem, the lack of easy ganks.

Originally by: Number AB3369
the various divisions of space are disconnected in terms of game play.


Almost as if CCP wanted different divisions of space to play differently.

Originally by: Number AB3369
Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.

This problem has some implications. First, it makes solo PvP extremely difficult. In O.O it's all blob-action; not very solo-inducive. Lowsec is just 0.0 lite, with FW and pirate mini-blobs; soloing is possible here, but the penalties (sec status hit) far outweigh the reward (cheap FW ship kills). In WH space solo play is quite viable, but it takes a TON of patience.


Logic fail. Wealth flows have **** ALL to do with blob warfare. People afraid to lose have EVERYTHING to do with blob warfare. Your propopsition "we all have lots of money, lets all get into ships and fly about together blobbing". A slightly more accurate version "hey, theres lots of us online, lets get some ships and go horribly outnumber someone for an easy kill" The wealth available might make a difference between supercaps and frigs, but the blob size is player rather than wealth determined.

Originally by: Number AB3369
There is another issue that occurs here as well. The community is not fully integrated. Here is an example: My main is a member of a well-known (in 0.0) alliance. But does the hisec bear fear me or even know what this alliance is? Absolutely not.


They might if you had the testicular fortitude to post with your main.

Originally by: Number AB3369
And, maybe this is arrogant, but they should.


Waaah, I want attention. Do something noteworthy and people will take note.

And now, to the supposed "meat" of your solution...

Originally by: Number AB3369
I believe that the problem lies in the ease in which PvP can be avoided in hi-sec. Now, at this point I am sure to hear from bears who say, "UR JST A PIRAT!!! LEEVE ME ALONE!!!" But, hear me out as I propose a few solutions.


No, your a WANNABE pirate. Real pirates HTFU and take it like men.

Originally by: Number AB3369
First, all Level 4 Missions should be non-Concord protected. Should a pirate initiate a fight, he will immediately become a global criminal and take a substantial security hit, but so long as he stays in the deadspace pocket, Concord will not intervene.


Like losec then. But you already said thats rubbish....

Originally by: Number AB3369
initiate a payoff system by which individuals and corporations can pay corrupt Concord officials off so as to initiate assassinations of certain individuals.


May I ask what you dislike about blob warfare? is it the fact that superior numbers mean winning or losing is far from skillbased and purely down to the materiel' available?

So obviously, you falling upon a lvl 4 Mission runner in a pve setup (he wont even have a point FFS) is a much fairer test of your solo pvp e-peen?

And assasinations? have you honestly thought that through? Akita T or Chribba could probably murder the whole of eve in a day.

Originally by: Number AB3369
I have some more ideas, but I'll send these out first.


Please dont, Your a shiptoasting **** after easy ganks with minimal effort. biomass yourself and stop polluting these boards with your whining drivel.

tl;dr? Number AB3369 is a whining tit who uses an illogical isk based argument to justify why eve should change to make his life easier and pad his KB. May He burn in fire (ingame)

Gurgeh "posting with my main" murat \m/

Number AB3369
Posted - 2011.01.09 20:37:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Number AB3369 on 09/01/2011 21:06:09
Greetings again everyone,

I feel I should respond, in general, to state that just because one does not agree with a post does not mean he should lose forget his manners. I imagine the people who do this are probably the ones who curse and lose their tempers when their ships have been lost in combat due to their own error.

Now, I believe I should move on to respond to a couple of arguments specifically.

To Merdaneth:

At first I liked your argument, and indeed laughed a bit. Then I realized that it fails because there is nothing in nature that even remotely resembles Concord. It would be as if, in the savannah a lion attacks a gazelle and then Shiva, Lord of Destruction, sprint-scrabled him and obliterated him from the earth. No, Merdaneth, this does not occur.

A better parallel is between Eve and a society, not unlike Selune Virra's comparison. Unfortunately, even in the nicest suburbs, danger can await. And, if you are a logical individual, you understand that the police cannot be at all places at all times. Thus, crime occurs.

Now, clearly we don't want to drive away new players. And clearly the Eve economy requires bearing. However, as anyone who has taken economics 101 will tell you, robust markets adjust to change very well. Eve has the most robust market of any online game that I can think of, so I think it will adjust. It may well be that we see fewer faction fit BS's running around in hi-sec. I'm certainly fine with that. Although, for many bears, those faction fit BS's constitute their end-game. Pity to not fly them.

To Murat:

I believe I have made clear why I don't post with my main. There is no need to be snide. As for my "logic fail", you are incorrect. The link is very simple. Here, I'll put it in an easier format for you.

Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.
Assumption A2. Carebearing is what makes ISK.
Assumption A3. Lowsec and 0.0 is where the majority of PvP takes place.
Assumption A4. Carebearing takes place in all areas, but is more heavily done in hisec.
Assumption A5. Very little PvP takes place in hisec.
Assumption A6. ISK movement among various areas occurs regularly.

Conclusion A: Since PvP is generated in hisec and not lost there, ISK flows in one general direction: from hisec toward lower security areas, where it is lost.

Now that we have established that, we can go further to state the following.

Assumption B1: The majority of PvP in 0.0 is blob-centric.
Assumption B2: The majority of PvP in lowsec is small-gang oriented (5-10 people); and has been trending toward larger fleets.
Assumption B3: Solo PvPers stand little, if any, chance against against either of the above groups.

Conclusion B: Given Conclusion A, and Assumptions B1-B3, it is clear that uni-directional ISK flow toward lowsec and 0.0 discourages solo PvP.

At the end of the day, I want everyone to enjoy all aspects of Eve. Clearly hisec should be safer. My argument is that it should not be completely safe. One might argue that can flipping, ninja salvaging, and war declarations constitute a level of threat. It does; I just don't think the threat level is quite high enough.

Cheers,
-AB

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2011.01.09 22:07:00 - [15]
 

So, let me make sure I understand. You don't make enough Isk to support your ganking, so you want to institute a system that costs you more Isk in order to make the carebearing you hate (but need to do) even harder.

And better yet, the system you want involves basically no effort on your part. You insert Isk A into NPC B, and somewhere in the universe a carebear dies.

And that's not all! Have you checked some of those threads about "How do you catch a L4 FW mission bomber?" Should I put together a list of itemized assumptions pointing out where all the highsec runners (who doesn't just leave EvE entirely) would go to make their Isk once you've succeeded in making highsec as dangerous as lowsec?

There is a silver lining to all of this though. Even though the only reason you don't "want" to alienate new players is because you likely don't fully comprehend the concept of other people, technically your ideas are but a buzzing gnat to the elephant stampede of things CCP has already done to aliente new players. Razz

Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.01.10 02:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369


Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.
Assumption A2. Carebearing is what makes ISK.
Assumption A3. Lowsec and 0.0 is where the majority of PvP takes place.
Assumption A4. Carebearing takes place in all areas, but is more heavily done in hisec.
Assumption A5. Very little PvP takes place in hisec.
Assumption A6. ISK movement among various areas occurs regularly.

Conclusion A: Since PvP is generated in hisec and not lost there, ISK flows in one general direction: from hisec toward lower security areas, where it is lost.

Now that we have established that, we can go further to state the following.

Assumption B1: The majority of PvP in 0.0 is blob-centric.
Assumption B2: The majority of PvP in lowsec is small-gang oriented (5-10 people); and has been trending toward larger fleets.
Assumption B3: Solo PvPers stand little, if any, chance against against either of the above groups.

Conclusion B: Given Conclusion A, and Assumptions B1-B3, it is clear that uni-directional ISK flow toward lowsec and 0.0 discourages solo PvP.

-AB


Once again, I must disagree in a most wholehearted manner with the erroneous conclusion B.

Assumption A1 : Everyone can afford to fly a ship of some value
Assumption A2 : You stand less chance of losing ship of some value in a gang with your pals

Conclusion.....you can probably work out why people blob? (hint, its in your assumption B3)

Nothing to do with the amount of megaiskies floating around 0.0 generated by those tewwible carebears. Its easier to kill people in a blob. Saying "it is clear that uni-directional ISK flow toward lowsec and 0.0 discourages solo PvP" does not make it so. Human nature is the root of the blob, as the tribal psychotics that humans are we band together for protection and to overcome foes easier. If you come to the forums with a genuine idea to discourage blobbage Id be all ears. Unfortunately, that you are not.

It could even be proposed that

Assumption A1 : Number AB3369's crazy ideas were taken on board by CCP
Assumption A2 : Less isk flows into low/nullsec (like nerfing bears is gonna cripple Nullsec ratters/miners)
Assumption A3 : Ships become more difficult for people to replace, they become even flightier about losing them and consequently never undock in anything but a massive blob to protect their expensive to replace ship.

Conclusion A : Even less solo PVP

So your proposition (which I still maintain is a thinly disguised idea to secure easy ganks) would actually REDUCE the ready availability of solo pvp in lower sec areas if your Conclusion B were true. Which its not.

Still a terrible, illogical stitching together of unrelated causality to prop up a weak argument why you should be allowed to get your hands on a bears shiney faction loot.

Luminos
Durid is 4 Fite
Posted - 2011.01.10 03:18:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Gurgeh Murat
is a thinly disguised idea to secure easy ganks
Disguised?

His first post was "I hate bears, and I want to kill them all at the press of a button." Shocked

Rhes
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.01.10 05:14:00 - [18]
 

I would have more sympathy for the plight of the "solo pvper" if they weren't all dudes who can't hack fleet combat begging for easy ways to kill mission runners.

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2011.01.10 23:49:00 - [19]
 

If it wasn't easy, they wouldn't call it care-bearing.

HTH. HAND.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.11 07:26:00 - [20]
 

Moved from 'Warfare & Tactics'.


Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.01.11 14:14:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 11/01/2011 14:24:20
so what would you do when all your easy targets switched to L3s?

also:
Originally by: Number AB3369

Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.


Ship destruction is an isk faucet, not a sink.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.11 15:42:00 - [22]
 

It is far too easy to hold 0.0 sov. HP should be nerfed enough to last only a few minutes for small gang. There, highsec corps will come to you. "Problem" solved.Laughing

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 11/01/2011 14:24:20
so what would you do when all your easy targets switched to L3s?

also:
Originally by: Number AB3369

Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.


Ship destruction is an isk faucet, not a sink.


Irrelevant, The problem with EVE's economy is an over abundance of material not and over abundance of isk.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:19:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 11/01/2011 14:24:20
so what would you do when all your easy targets switched to L3s?

also:
Originally by: Number AB3369

Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.


Ship destruction is an isk faucet, not a sink.


Irrelevant, The problem with EVE's economy is an over abundance of material not and over abundance of isk.


You're saying missions and rat bounty should be buffed to increase isk faucet?Very Happy

Berikath
Posted - 2011.01.11 22:28:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.


No.

Wealth is generated in 0.0/WHs. Then it goes to high-sec, gets turned into stuff, and flows back to 0.0/WHs. AFAIK, the majority of stuff goes through high-sec at some point, and the people who do stuff to it (and take a cut) actually tend to be the most wealthy.

Often they don't DO much at all with that wealth, but they've got a whole bunch of it :)

Goose99
Posted - 2011.01.11 23:03:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: Number AB3369
Generally speaking, it appears that wealth flows in one direction only. It is generated in hi-sec or WH space and moves to 0.0 where it is consumed through PvP. It bypasses low-sec almost completely with the possible exception of FW. Wealth can be generated quite readily in 0.0, but it does not tend to flow back to hi-sec.


No.

Wealth is generated in 0.0/WHs. Then it goes to high-sec, gets turned into stuff, and flows back to 0.0/WHs. AFAIK, the majority of stuff goes through high-sec at some point, and the people who do stuff to it (and take a cut) actually tend to be the most wealthy.

Often they don't DO much at all with that wealth, but they've got a whole bunch of it :)


Lol, what? What 0.0/WHs produce are materials, not isk. Those moon goo, sleeper drone poop and deadspace mods are only worth as much as highsec market is willing to pay for. The one isk faucet in game is highsec mission bounties, far exceeding anything else. Sanctum bounty and insurance payouts are distant runner-ups. Isk is produced in highsec, it flows out to null in exchange for high-worth materials (not low minerals, which has bulk, but not so much value). In the past few months, deadspace mods market is suffering from rapid mudflation due to spike in suicide ganks, as missioners who has the wealth become unwilling to buy deadspace mods, thinking they'll becoming gank targets, instead opt for cheaper faction mods that they buy from their own LP. Unfortunately, this means wealth stays in highsec, devastating null explorers.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.01.12 17:01:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 11/01/2011 14:24:20
so what would you do when all your easy targets switched to L3s?

also:
Originally by: Number AB3369

Assumption A1. PvP is what destroys ISK.


Ship destruction is an isk faucet, not a sink.


Irrelevant, The problem with EVE's economy is an over abundance of material not and over abundance of isk.


You're saying missions and rat bounty should be buffed to increase isk faucet?Very Happy


Possibly either that or create another isk faucet to inject liquidity into the market preferably in low sec to give people some reason to actually go there. The other option is to further limit the material inputs into the game but that is rather counter productive since the goal is to get people shooting at each other.

I still say that changing insurance was a mistake. It was a self regulating mechanism that would simultaneously remove material and inject isk.

If inflation was a concern then they should have created new or adjusted existing isk sinks rather than jacking with insurance which essentially just replaced a set price floor with a diminishing price floor on minerals.

Monte Shill
Posted - 2011.01.12 18:14:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Number AB3369
that wealth flows in one direction only

Its a funnel, wealth circulates and collects at the top of the bathtub in highsec/0.0 where its destroyed and created. Lowsec is a drain where its ment to be destroyed, where players hang out that don't care for carebearing and blob fleets. Lowsec is a transitionary between the majority of null and highsec, you are pretty much forced to pass through lowsec to get to high/null and its the lowsec dwellers problem to blast them. If they are getting passed you, you are doing it wrong.

Originally by: Number AB3369
My main is a member of a well-known (in 0.0) alliance. But does the hisec bear fear me or even know what this alliance is?

Why would I fear another player? I already know the outcome, its ship/pod/ransom (most likely all of those). Thats acceptence, like that moment just before dying in the movies and the hero goes out with a bang. I fear the likes of Sansha/Sleeper more, because they are overwhelmingly overpowered in my opinion. What I do is respect other players and stay out of their way, because I know what they are capable of and I don't want it to cost me something I worked for.

Originally by: Number AB3369
Assumptions

CCP made an assumption back in 2003, that everyone would want to try a different game. One with consequences to actions and can cost you dearly. Sadly, they failed in their assumption that a customer would want to pay an MMO company to make life difficult to advance for a game where its CLICK! Add skill and wait while someone is camped outside at the dock hopping a FBSS or Yak drops (horribly boring, I wasn't interested in EVE back in 2003). Why didn't they just oldyeller the server and call it quits when they had 10k active subs? Tabula Rasa got put down when it was at 20k subs, which I really enjoyed but it didn't last 8 months as it lacked a developer direction.

CCP then made another assumption. HOLY SH*T BATMAN!!! Its human nature, I know for a fact that even as a game dev if they were not getting what they felt for the value of their money at a resturant (terrible food, bad service, wasn't filling) they would take their money else where. CCP then made highsec more secure and buffed CONCORD, to put a dampener on rampant destruction. The rabbit population increased (those that don't care for wantom destruction), the wolf population increased (those that got tired of winning without losses when they died on a frag grenade in HALO after popping another player), and CCP's wallet started blinking like crazy. Equilibrium was reached, you only have to know how you want to use that for your enjoyment of the game.


Originally by: Number AB3369
At the end of the day, I want everyone to enjoy all aspects of Eve. Clearly hisec should be safer. My argument is that it should not be completely safe. One might argue that can flipping, ninja salvaging, and war declarations constitute a level of threat. It does; I just don't think the threat level is quite high enough.

I undock in a very expensive ship, thats the risk. Noting stops you from firing on that ship except your fear of CONCORD. If highsec level 4 was made less secure, I better get a reallocation for my BS skills towards cruisers (I already invested my time, not going to spend a couple months doing nothing interesting to wait for cruiser skills to catch up. Alt has been doing that for 6 months now)), because anyone with intellegence knows that Cruiser> BS, PVP> PVE Fit, and scanning are already way to easy. As everyone already assumes I am not capbable of ship to ship combat in a marauder and won't relize that carebear = easy! target without risk to their bait ship so they can come moaning back in like a female **** star a T2/T3 for the kill, I will continue to play the part of Bugs Bunny to your Daffy Duck until you man up and Elmer Fud at my ship.


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only