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mech res
Posted - 2010.12.28 15:46:00 - [1]
 

I have not really been able to get into the back story of eve. What I have read has not been something that I could really stomach for very long. So I admit I am pretty ignorant of the back story. So let me ask a few questions:

What religions are common among the Caldari Gallente and Minmatar?

Does religion always have to involve being nutty in the backstory?

It’s clear the amarr are the bad guys. I mean you can try to get around it all you want …. except for that bit about defending slavery and all, lol. What are some of the great humanitarian things that the Amarr have done but the other races refused to do?

Amarr have the atrocity of continuing slavery due to their nutty fundamentalist religious views. What sort of atrocities have happened due to the gallente's or minmatar’s world views?

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2010.12.28 16:36:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 28/12/2010 16:37:29
Originally by: mech res
I have not really been able to get into the back story of eve. What I have read has not been something that I could really stomach for very long. So I admit I am pretty ignorant of the back story. So let me ask a few questions:

What religions are common among the Caldari Gallente and Minmatar?

Does religion always have to involve being nutty in the backstory?

It’s clear the amarr are the bad guys. I mean you can try to get around it all you want …. except for that bit about defending slavery and all, lol. What are some of the great humanitarian things that the Amarr have done but the other races refused to do?

Amarr have the atrocity of continuing slavery due to their nutty fundamentalist religious views. What sort of atrocities have happened due to the gallente's or minmatar’s world views?


Read Empyrean Age.
Read "Two Deaths" chronicle
Read about Nouvelle Rouvenor.
Read the 'methods of torture' chronicles

They're all capable of some pretty horrific things when they want to be.

Theres also this video...

mech res
Posted - 2010.12.28 17:20:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Myxx
Edited by: Myxx on 28/12/2010 16:37:29
Originally by: mech res

Amarr have the atrocity of continuing slavery due to their nutty fundamentalist religious views. What sort of atrocities have happened due to the gallente's or minmatar’s world views?


Read Empyrean Age.
Read "Two Deaths" chronicle
Read about Nouvelle Rouvenor.
Read the 'methods of torture' chronicles

They're all capable of some pretty horrific things when they want to be.

Theres also this video...


Thanks for the response.
I asked “What sort of atrocities have happened due to the gallente's or minmatar’s world views? “
You gave me the 2 deaths chronicle which seems to involve killing a suspected traitor. Is this really an atrocity? I mean even if we assume he was falsely accused its hardly an atrocity that the justice system isn’t always right.
You gave me “Nouvelle Rouvenor” which seems to be an atrocity commited by the caldari. I figured the dirty rotten capitallists would commit atrocities in the back story. That is why I didn’t ask for something from them.

As far as all the factions engaging in torture, is this somehow a reason that we should like the amarr or caldari more than the minmatar or gallente?

It seems the back story involves hackneyed portrayals religious kooks, that are very hard to relate to, a stereotypical faction of capitalist pigs, and then you have the “yay liberal” freedom fighters on the other side.

I guess there is nothing wrong with this. It just seems a bit politically correct.

Is the only religion in the whole back story the kooky amarrian versions? 3/4s of the races have no religion at all?

It’s sort of like they are trying to make the back story a bit gray and complex but really failing at it. Just my two cents.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2010.12.28 18:23:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 28/12/2010 18:23:57
The Amarr aren't known for their humanitarian acts. Though in recent history there is an isolated instance where an Amarr mining company rescued Caldari asteroid miners that comes to mind.

The Intaki seems to have a religion called "Idama" or something similar sounding, though that may actually just be a philosophy... maybe an Intaki roleplayer can tell you more.

The Jin-Mei have a caste-structure. I've never read into their background far enough to determine if that system has a religious basis.

The Minmatar are maybe one of the most interesting factions in that regard. They are spiritual in their own way with a long and old tribal tradition. They have mystics at least, but I'm not sure if the mainstream Minmatar are religious. Considering their history I'd think they have become averse to it. There are also Minmatar that worship the Amarr God. A lot of the 9th generation slaves that were released from the Empire have kept to their Amarrian ways and traditions. The different factions in the Republic don't get along very well, and it remains to be seen if the Republic fought it's way into freedom, only to become "reclaimed" by cultural means after being flooded by former slaves.

Milan Skrlec
Posted - 2010.12.28 18:35:00 - [5]
 

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Intaki#Culture

The Mimnatar seem to have a tribal belief system. Tattoos are nearly mystical in their culture. There are rites, which also indicates a sort of responsibility to the powers that be.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achura#History
The information on their history and bloodlines in particularly informative.

It seems as though, were it in a nut-shell, the religious beliefs of each of the four races would be as follows:

Amarr: Monotheistic
Gallente: Reincarnation
Caldari: Seers and Meditative
Mimnatar: Similar to the Native American populations

Esna Pitoojee
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2010.12.29 03:40:00 - [6]
 

Minmatar:
- Exile (and worse is hinted at) of those with "bad" Voluval marks (see the chronicle "The Outcast")
- Chemical warfare - Insorum, the substance which cures Vitoxin poisoning, was dispersed over Amarr planets during the Elder invasion. Insorum also happens to be highly toxic to those not infected with the Vitoxin, so everyone on the planet who wasn't infected with Vitoxin (including quite possibly a significant percentage of the slave population) would die without protection.
- Concentration camps and mass-****s following successful rebellions on several planets (see the chronicle "Daughters of the revolution").

Caldari:
- Nouvelle Rouvenor, as has been mentioned.
- Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba's attack on Gallente forces ended when he directed his carrier to crash into Gallente Prime, killing over two million people.
- It's been demonstrated several times that the less scrupulous megacorps treat their lower-level employees as replacable cogs in a machine and as such heavily stamp out anyone pushing for greater rights for the lowest workers.

Gallente:
- There have been several hints and suggestions (some less subtle than others) that the Gallente are forcibly assimilating and subsuming the cultures of the nations (Intaki, Jin-Mei, and Mannar) that have joined them and attempted to do something similar to the Caldari; although less direct than the Amarr method, the fact still remains they are altering other cultures because they don't fit the Gallente ideal of "freedom".
- Subset of the above, when the Caldari did resist they started bombing their homeworld.

So yes, while the Amarr are far from innocent, all the nations have their own black marks.


As for Caldari spiritualism... I reccomend you find the chronicle "Cold Wind". It's a kind of a Caldari folk tale / legend / religious excerpt (depending on how you look at it).

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2010.12.29 13:18:00 - [7]
 


What you see as hackneyed portrayals are only the broadest brush strokes at the highest level of the story. At first glance it might appear to be the Good Gallente and Minmater against the evil Amarr & Caldari but there are infinite shades or grey in all four factions. Dig into the bloodlines, ancestry there are many very subtle and interesting choices.

The Amarr are evil religious kooks only on the surface. The vast majority of Amarr really believe what they are doing is for the best for both themselves and their slaves. In many ways it is similar to the catholic tradition of achieving salvation in the after life by suffering during life. Not all slaves are Minmatar anybody can be enslaved even true blood Amarr. The Amarr also have the liberal holder tradition, where the relationship between master and slave is very paternal. The slaves of a liberal holder will likely have a much better life than many across new Eden. The life of Caldari unemployed, the Gallente poor or those in Minmatar Refugee camps is very harsh.

The rigorous caste system of the Jin-Mei is a complete anathema to the wider Gallente tradition, but raises and interesting dilemma. Should the Federation tolerate the inherent discrimination or crush it.



Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2010.12.29 23:17:00 - [8]
 

Good points have already been made out.

For religion, it is suggested that Caldari and Minmatar may practice ancestor worship. For Caldari, the Deteis and Civire are the two major nationalities that survived the bombardment and evacuation of their homeworld, and have since absorbed the other original Caldari ethnicities. Achura are a newer mix, not much is known of them, and their customs may vary widely. The Sukuuvestaa corporation, which controls the Achura home system, uses lots of Achura imagery and hires many off-world Achura, but its culture is Caldari. The most traditionalist corporations are the Patriot Wiyrkomi and the Liberal Hyosyoda, both of which are assumed to be family-owned enterprises (at least on paper and in marketing). Family may have had a big role in Caldari culture before the exodus from their homeworld. Some of this may be broken by desperate programs such as Tube Children, as the early Caldari State began to artificially grow its population in vitro. (It is assumed by some that now when there is/used to be even unemployment, the program has been discontinued. It is still a valid ancestry, as your character's parents/grandparents/etc. might have been tube children.)

The Minmatar do practice some sort of shamanism. Voluval is the best known instance, a coming-of-age ritual where the shamans use some sort of half-mystical technology to make tattoos which may or may not reflect the personality of their bearer. These vary from the Ray of Matar (carried by the former Prime Minister Karin Midular) which marks its bearer near-messianic to the really bad marks which may lead to exile of the individual. And of course, since the huge majority of Minmatar are former slaves, a large minority of them does practice the Amarr faith.

The Gallente have multiple nationalities. The best known "Gallente" religion is the Intaki Ida. I don't know much of it, though. There are also suggestions of an (ethnic) Gallente polytheist religion. Most of this is player fiction, though at least Ida has been mentioned in CCP or ISD sources.

And then, the Amarr are not a single united block of space Christians/Muslims/Zoroastrians, but there's a whole lot of sects - possibly including something that does resemble modern-day Christianity. (There's a mission where the player is sent to stamp down a sect preaching galactic peace while drinking blood and eating bodies - the cultists claim the supper to be symbolic, but hey, orders are orders.) It is also noteworthy that the Amarr Empire does consist of 40 % of all inhabited systems or so (via Word of God, haven't counted). There could arguably be even more room than in the (unknown myriad) number of Federal member-states.

There's (my improvised labels) the Good Shepherds (good religious types), the Devils (religion as an excuse to further their own claims), the Orthodox Believers (in modern terms, strict nutty religious conservatives) and even some renegades who side with the Minmatar (mentioned in a mission) plus a whole lot of non-mainstream cults. There's also "secular" Amarr - the religion is built-in their culture, though it is highly suggested that of the royal families only one pays religion more attention than mere lip service.

For the Amarr and humanitarion things, much of that is player fiction. In the official fiction, the highest profile thing would be freeing a whole lot of slaves, though this could also be seen as creating a large loyalist population in the Republic. The old Emperor Heideran VII also wrote a book about galactic peace called Pax Amarria on his last years. Exact contents are unknown, but it is assumed to state that killing everyone and then enslaving the survivors is an outdated policy for the Empire. After the government of the Ammatar Mandate was given to Ardishapur, the Royal Heir also proceeded to build a whole lot of hospitals and schools (also churches, the evil brainwashing slaver!)

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.01 20:52:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

The Amarr are evil religious kooks only on the surface. The vast majority of Amarr really believe what they are doing is for the best for both themselves and their slaves. In many ways it is similar to the catholic tradition of achieving salvation in the after life by suffering during life.


Well its more like a perversion of the Catholic view. Moreover, don't all religious kooks "really believe what they are doing is for the best for both themselves and [those they victimize]?"

I guess because I am a religious person myself, reading the chronicles where all of these stereotypes of religion being nutty just doesn’t sit well. I know this is how some people think in real life and they are quite enthusiastic in pushing their views. I suppose if you are one of those people or you just don’t care about religion in general you might like the chronicles. But for me its just fiction that describes how many people would love to spin real life religion. I wish they would give it rest in the game.

I hope the Jovians are really just from earth. And I hope they have religion that works something like real world religion. That is teaches people to do the right thing. Sure it has been used to justify some bad things but by and large it is a major driving force for good. If that happens this back story might be somewhat palatable. Until then it just sounds like made up drivel to support some peoples anti – religious views.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.01 23:02:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: mech res

Well its more like a perversion of the Catholic view. Moreover, don't all religious kooks "really believe what they are doing is for the best for both themselves and [those they victimize]?"

I guess because I am a religious person myself, reading the chronicles where all of these stereotypes of religion being nutty just doesn’t sit well. I know this is how some people think in real life and they are quite enthusiastic in pushing their views. I suppose if you are one of those people or you just don’t care about religion in general you might like the chronicles. But for me its just fiction that describes how many people would love to spin real life religion. I wish they would give it rest in the game.

I hope the Jovians are really just from earth. And I hope they have religion that works something like real world religion. That is teaches people to do the right thing. Sure it has been used to justify some bad things but by and large it is a major driving force for good. If that happens this back story might be somewhat palatable. Until then it just sounds like made up drivel to support some peoples anti – religious views.



How do you define something 'good'? Good is a label put on context to morality and morality might changed or be changed by religion. Some people think it is good to follow their holy text of choice to the letter and even go so far as suppressing scientific knowledge when it conflicts with their holy texts. Without any doubt these person would call their actions as good and well justified.

That is also the main problem with religion because in the end it always comes to: Abandon your consciece and do what you are told. In more extreme cases go even one step further and fight the 'evil' that is in all who disagree.

The Amarr religion catches this aspect quite well.

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.02 00:04:00 - [11]
 

Deviana Sevidon

I would bet you like the chronicles. They fit in well with your view of the world.

But I don't believe in moral relativism. Nor do I believe that religion is all about abandoning your conscience and killing those who disagree. Since I consider myself a somewhat religious person I find the way they represent religious people and religion in general to be quite crude.

Writers who can’t quite make cogent arguments to support their views so resort to making up stories that use emotion to influence views are not really my bag.

I do however love science fiction. It’s a shame the eve back story has to be so anti-religion. That makes it a real groaner.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.02 01:20:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: mech res
Deviana Sevidon

I would bet you like the chronicles. They fit in well with your view of the world.

But I don't believe in moral relativism. Nor do I believe that religion is all about abandoning your conscience and killing those who disagree. Since I consider myself a somewhat religious person I find the way they represent religious people and religion in general to be quite crude.

Writers who can’t quite make cogent arguments to support their views so resort to making up stories that use emotion to influence views are not really my bag.

I do however love science fiction. It’s a shame the eve back story has to be so anti-religion. That makes it a real groaner.



Just because the Amarr are both religious fundamentalists and (pretty much) evil doesn't mean all religion in the Eve universe is evil. The Intaki, for instance, are described as extremely religious, and seem to be generally described positively in the fiction.

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.02 03:26:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: mech res on 02/01/2011 03:28:03
Edited by: mech res on 02/01/2011 03:27:23
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Just because the Amarr are both religious fundamentalists and (pretty much) evil doesn't mean all religion in the Eve universe is evil. The Intaki, for instance, are described as extremely religious, and seem to be generally described positively in the fiction.


Yeah sure. The authors try to blend real life organized religions into this perverse offshoot that is the cause of great evil. And that my friends is the only way any organized religion will be portrayed in this story.

But we shouldn't say the back story is anti-religion. Why? Because there is something that is not an organized religion (and indeed not a religion at all) that is... well sort of ok.

Why kid around with eachother? The eve back story is very anti-religion. Just admit the obvious.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.02 03:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: mech res
Edited by: mech res on 02/01/2011 03:28:03
Edited by: mech res on 02/01/2011 03:27:23
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Just because the Amarr are both religious fundamentalists and (pretty much) evil doesn't mean all religion in the Eve universe is evil. The Intaki, for instance, are described as extremely religious, and seem to be generally described positively in the fiction.


Yeah sure. The authors try to blend real life organized religions into this perverse offshoot that is the cause of great evil. And that my friends is the only way any organized religion will be portrayed in this story.

But we shouldn't say the back story is anti-religion. Why? Because there is something that is not an organized religion (and indeed not a religion at all) that is... well sort of ok.

Why kid around with eachother? The eve back story is very anti-religion. Just admit the obvious.


How is the intaki religion not a religion? Or any of the other religious traditions mentioned in this thread? You seem like you just really want to feel offended.

Tagera
Posted - 2011.01.02 05:36:00 - [15]
 

Don't forget the Aenebra (sp?) of the Intaki. And no the chronicles are not anti-religious. As there are many religions in real life there are myriad amounts on Eve. Some come from the backstories and I think a few many be player idealized. Which 99.9% of the time tends to be some of the greatest work I've seen on any game from any community.

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.02 06:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
How is the intaki religion not a religion? Or any of the other religious traditions mentioned in this thread? You seem like you just really want to feel offended.


Intaki is not a religion.

I'm not offended. I'm just explaining why this eve backstory does not appeal to me. If you 1) think organized religion is evil and 2) like to read fiction that reinforces your views then you will probably like it.


What organized religion in the back story, makes organized religion look good? If you find one, what sort and how big of a role does it play in the back story?

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.01.02 07:02:00 - [17]
 


Good troll, you RP religious bigot to a T, hooked me and several others, now why don't scurry off back to C&P/COAD.

Tagera
Posted - 2011.01.02 17:34:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: mech res
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
How is the intaki religion not a religion? Or any of the other religious traditions mentioned in this thread? You seem like you just really want to feel offended.


Intaki is not a religion.

I'm not offended. I'm just explaining why this eve backstory does not appeal to me. If you 1) think organized religion is evil and 2) like to read fiction that reinforces your views then you will probably like it.




What organized religion in the back story, makes organized religion look good? If you find one, what sort and how big of a role does it play in the back story?



1. I don't think organized religion is evil...since I don't deal in absolutes. Just some of the people in it or that preach it for purposes of control. 2. No it doesn't reinforce any views about what I believe in real life because of the simple fact it is FICTION.

Mort Eveson
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.01.02 19:28:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Mort Eveson on 02/01/2011 19:28:22
Originally by: mech res
Deviana Sevidon

I would bet you like the chronicles. They fit in well with your view of the world.

But I don't believe in moral relativism. Nor do I believe that religion is all about abandoning your conscience and killing those who disagree. Since I consider myself a somewhat religious person I find the way they represent religious people and religion in general to be quite crude.

Writers who can’t quite make cogent arguments to support their views so resort to making up stories that use emotion to influence views are not really my bag.

I do however love science fiction. It’s a shame the eve back story has to be so anti-religion. That makes it a real groaner.



I'm (moderately) religious and love the eve back story. The Amarr are the example of blind faith without thought, although there are examples of Amarrians doing good things because of their religion. I see the Amarrian religion being similar to Christianity in so much as it includes a massive number of different branches, but the Amarr have managed to join them together under one banner (rather than all the bickering between the Christian denominations).
However it is always easiest for the fundamentalists/extremists/militants to take power since they are the ones most willing to do anything to do what they see as 'good' and it is often those that get noticed.

((If I've fallen for a Troll then oh well, religion interests me.))

Mort Eveson
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.01.02 19:48:00 - [20]
 

Now a reply to the original topic.

The religions of the other races are not bulked out at all, apart from a small amount for the Minmatar, Achura and Intaki. I think the main reason for this is that religion is not such a dominant force, much as in (most of) the modern world. Much of the tradition, culture and common law of real countries is based on their religions and their religious past, and I assume this is no different for the nations of New Eden.

People have pointed out Gallente atrocities for you and for the Minmatar I would like to add that their fight against the Amarr has become more about hatred and revenge than about justice.

And I disagree with the idea that the Intaki Ida is not a religion, but I guess that's a matter of what definition of religion you use.

Mort Eveson
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.01.02 19:51:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Mort Eveson on 02/01/2011 19:51:38
Originally by: mech res
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
How is the intaki religion not a religion? Or any of the other religious traditions mentioned in this thread? You seem like you just really want to feel offended.


Intaki is not a religion.

I'm not offended. I'm just explaining why this eve backstory does not appeal to me. If you 1) think organized religion is evil and 2) like to read fiction that reinforces your views then you will probably like it.


What organized religion in the back story, makes organized religion look good? If you find one, what sort and how big of a role does it play in the back story?



As for an organized religion that has a positive role in the backstory look no further than the Sisters of Eve. Probably the second largest organised religion in New Eden and the single largest humanitarian organisation.

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=sep04

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.01.02 20:25:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 02/01/2011 20:26:27
Originally by: mech res
Deviana Sevidon

I would bet you like the chronicles. They fit in well with your view of the world.

But I don't believe in moral relativism. Nor do I believe that religion is all about abandoning your conscience and killing those who disagree. Since I consider myself a somewhat religious person I find the way they represent religious people and religion in general to be quite crude.

Writers who can’t quite make cogent arguments to support their views so resort to making up stories that use emotion to influence views are not really my bag.

I do however love science fiction. It’s a shame the eve back story has to be so anti-religion. That makes it a real groaner.



Yes I like the chronicles, but I do not consider them a very accurate descriptions of real humans or their actions.

The problem I have with religion is the appeal to higher authority. Yes killing them is only the most extreme case, but there are steps a few levels that are in the long run even more dangerous. Banning the teaching of evolution in schools in favor of the 'happy lies' is potentially more devastating.

What if a holy text says the world is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days. Yet the overhelming majority of evidence that support scientific theories point to the fact that the world and the universe is far older, many times more complex. Religion was in early times a way to get knowledge and understand the world, science and religion had both the same goals during that time. But as scientific tools became more refined and the knowledge it could draw upon increased it left the religion behind. Or rather it left those behind who consider themselves religious, because at one point a decision had to be made between abandoning the ancient stories and explore the wonders nature offers to a degree our ancestor would never have dreamed about. Or do the opposite, close the eyes and cling to the ancient text, because everything that is to be known was already put into the holy writs, or however you might call them.

I prefer science over religion and knowledge over belief. I am fully aware that I am completely unable to fully grasp the complexity the size and even the majesty of our universe. But I am happy about every small glimpse I might catch. ugh

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2011.01.02 20:43:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: mech res

What organized religion in the back story, makes organized religion look good? If you find one, what sort and how big of a role does it play in the back story?

The Servant Sisters of EVE is a religious organization, and the largest and most well-known humanitarian group in the entire setting. Though they're supposed to have arisen from the Gallente-Caldari war, I feel it's implied the faith of the organization itself is Amarrian and definitely monotheistic. Either way, they are religiously motivated to do good - and they do.

Though it's unclear how organized it is, the Achura seem to have a faith which lends tremendous support and respect to innovators, scientists and forward-thinking creative individuals. This seems to me a good-looking religion, which has attached itself so deeply to thought and reason as to regard it as a holy enterprise.

And the Intaki Ida is definitely a religion. Intaki society as a whole seems founded on the idea of reverence for the re-born. You could argue that there is too much apparent evidence that their rituals are actually true (that the reborn really are reincarnated) for it to be a genuine faith (which cannot be proven to be true), but they do have a religion surrounding those practices - and most likely plenty of other baseless rites and superstitions.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.02 20:56:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: mech res

Intaki is not a religion.




http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Intaki#Ida_-_The_Intaki_Faith

Quote:
One core tenet is that all things are in a cycle. Death leads to rebirth. A solution only leads to more problems. We know that the "soul" or "spirit" is eternal and will be reborn many times to learn new lessons, and once it fuly understands the cycle it may finally move on. The Reborn are an important part of this. These were people who had reached a level of understanding that they may choose to be liberated, but choose to remain and teach others. In earlier times there were many tests and rituals to ensure that a soul had indeed been reborn, and through mental discipline and training these Reborn were able to continue their life work over many lifetimes. These rare people were given the title of Idama.


That sounds kinda religious!

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.03 03:35:00 - [25]
 

Thanks for the responses everyone. No I was not trolling. I guess because I do not believe in relativism I am considered a religious bigot. Rolling Eyes

Sisters of Eve seems to be good evidence that the authors are not completely anti religion as I wrongly thought.

As for ida being a religion there is room for debate and defining what a religion is not easy. However, I would say this sounds along the lines of the writings of plato (in that he had similar views on the human soul) and stoicism (in that it was an overall school of philosophy with teaching on how to live and different topics). I don’t think Plato was writing theology nor do I think stoicism is a religion.

Some could disagree but I would say these 2 come immediately to mind when I read about ida.

I tend to think for something to be a religion instead of just a philosophy or “school of thought” it needs to involve somehow greater/or supernatural powers. It seems one could be a naturalist and ida at the same time.

Cheney I agree that specific part sounds religious. That is the most religious sounding part of it. However it may only be that you don’t believe what the ida say that make you think it sounds like religion.

But *if* the natural world in fact worked by a series of reincarnations and souls are eternal, stating this could be seen as just a statement of fact. Plato even thought he knew the soul survived after the body died by way of reason. It sounds like the author of this ida “way” may have been familiar with ancient greek philosophy.

I do wonder if the author knew that Christianity was referred to as “the way” early in its history.

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.03 03:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 02/01/2011 20:26:27
Originally by: mech res
Deviana Sevidon

.... Religion was in early times a way to get knowledge and understand the world, science and religion had both the same goals during that time....


No religion and science may both have the goal of knowledge but the types of knowledge have always been different. Science will teach us how to live longer. Religion really doesn’t do that. But science will never teach us *what we should do* with that extra time if offers us. Religion does that.

You need to understand these differences and then you will see that its not an either or decision between science and religion. Both cover different ground and there is very little overlap. People strain to try to make them overlap and contradict each other but they miss the forest for the trees.

BTW even the early church fathers knew Genesis was not to be taken literally.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.01.03 03:53:00 - [27]
 

Similarly, if the Amarr god really exists, then it's also not religion. But, absence any evidence of reincarnation or Amarr gods, they're both religions.

The Intaki religion is consistently described in terms of reincarnation. It seems blatantly modeled on Buddhism, which is both a philosophy and a religion, as the religious/supernatural beliefs of Buddhism are not central to the doctrine. However, the Intaki religion is never mentioned outside of the context of belief in reincarnation. Since reincarnation is both supernatural (outside of tech reincarnation, which the religion predates) and central to the belief system (it seems, anyway, based on the three paragraphs we have to work with) it seems to me that the Intaki faith is definitely religious in nature.

Now as to whether it is an organized religion, there's not a lot to go off of. But the previously cited fiction does say that there is a organized means for determining the legitimacy of reincarnations, so I believe so.

I think your issue is that the Amarr empire is both 1) religious and 2) more or less evil.

However, the Amarr empire is a theocracy. There's not a lot of historical examples of benevolent theocracies, from a modern perspective. Many people in Eve may have religions, however, only in the Amarr faith does that religion run the government.

Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2011.01.03 05:30:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Alexeph Stoekai on 03/01/2011 05:29:59
Originally by: mech res
I tend to think for something to be a religion instead of just a philosophy or “school of thought” it needs to involve somehow greater/or supernatural powers. It seems one could be a naturalist and ida at the same time.
There are plenty of nontheist religions. What makes you think you need to believe in a "greater power" to qualify as religious?

Mort Eveson
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.01.03 11:45:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: mech res
Thanks for the responses everyone. No I was not trolling. I guess because I do not believe in relativism I am considered a religious bigot. Rolling Eyes


I think it was just the fact you were getting very defensive, very quickly, although suppose it's easy to do when you're in the minority on here.

Originally by: mech res
Sisters of Eve seems to be good evidence that the authors are not completely anti religion as I wrongly thought.


YEY!

Originally by: mech res
As for ida being a religion there is room for debate and defining what a religion is not easy. However, I would say this sounds along the lines of the writings of plato (in that he had similar views on the human soul) and stoicism (in that it was an overall school of philosophy with teaching on how to live and different topics). I don’t think Plato was writing theology nor do I think stoicism is a religion.

Some could disagree but I would say these 2 come immediately to mind when I read about ida.

I tend to think for something to be a religion instead of just a philosophy or “school of thought” it needs to involve somehow greater/or supernatural powers. It seems one could be a naturalist and ida at the same time.

Cheney I agree that specific part sounds religious. That is the most religious sounding part of it. However it may only be that you don’t believe what the ida say that make you think it sounds like religion.

But *if* the natural world in fact worked by a series of reincarnations and souls are eternal, stating this could be seen as just a statement of fact. Plato even thought he knew the soul survived after the body died by way of reason. It sounds like the author of this ida “way” may have been familiar with ancient greek philosophy.

I do wonder if the author knew that Christianity was referred to as “the way” early in its history.



I can see the analogy with Plato and stoicism, however I link it more with Buddhism and Hinduism. It has also never been made clear if the Ida is mutually exclusive to a deity. The words and phrasings of the Intaki background are much more linked to India then to Greece though.

mech res
Posted - 2011.01.03 15:45:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Mort Eveson
I can see the analogy with Plato and stoicism, however I link it more with Buddhism and Hinduism. It has also never been made clear if the Ida is mutually exclusive to a deity. The words and phrasings of the Intaki background are much more linked to India then to Greece though.


It’s possible. It’s hard to talk about “Buddhism and Hinduism” as a whole as there are various beliefs and differences of understanding within them. At least from this description it would seem an *extremely* stripped down form of Buddhism or Hinduism. Admittedly the description was pretty short so it may have left stuff out. But then again what identifiable set of beliefs isn’t similar to “Buddhism and Hinduism” in some way?

No beliefs in heaven or hell? What about Nirvana? I’m not saying they are the same but usually this will be mentioned when explaining “no heaven”. No scriptures. No mantras. No monks. No blessings. No karma. No Denominations. I could go on. There is allot of different things that help us identify various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism as a religion that are missing from this description.

Then also consider that some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism are very borderline to being a religion. At least one Hindus I spoke with would say they do not even think what he believes, is a “religion”.

The following phrase I believe cuts both ways:

"In earlier times there were many tests and rituals to ensure that a soul had indeed been reborn, and through mental discipline and training these Reborn were able to continue their life work over many lifetimes.”

Rituals IMO would be good evidence that this is religion. However he says “in earlier times…” This seems to suggest they no longer do these rituals. Do they do any rituals? If not then IMO this is *much* closer to stoicism than Hinduism or Buddhism. And not a religion.

In the end it can be tricky to say why stoicism or utilitarianism is not a religion and some other things are. As described thus far this Ida seems closer to stoicism with some extra bit about becoming an “Idama”.


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